BtS vs FF

michela123

So, I've decided to record these videos because more and more people recommend, when solo DC, to use FF over BtS because "it's faster".

On the left 4x BtS, on the right 4x FF:
https://youtu.be/hpIo5cjuXn0

On the left DG BtS DG BtS, on the right DG FF DG FF:
https://youtu.be/vapUCDuj4Qs

On the left BtS DG BtS BtS, on the right FF DG FF FF:
https://youtu.be/aafGawsV3YI

Sure, there are human errors and terrible editing skills involved, but still... I don't see any reason to use a 15% buff over a 30% one. And furthermore, it's faster to cast BtS with two empowered stacks (20% buff) than FF with three empowered stacks (15% buff). And no, FF does not have a wider area. And no, BtS does not affect only five allies. And no, slowing an enemy is not better than reducing its damage by 40% (I've heard that too...).

thefabricant

But FF looks prettier...

rjc9000

But what are the radii of their buff ranges?

:thinking:

dupeks

It's important to note that slotting FF is easier than slotting BtS because FF is unlocked at a lower level and therefore is positioned closer to the top of the power page. The OP didn't account for the additional time required to scroll down to BtS vs FF, which reduces effectiveness at the beginning of a dungeon.

jazzfong

dupeks said:

It's important to note that slotting FF is easier than slotting BtS because FF is unlocked at a lower level and therefore is positioned closer to the top of the power page. The OP didn't account for the additional time required to scroll down to BtS vs FF, which reduces effectiveness at the beginning of a dungeon.

1. Press T for auto walk, scroll and get Bts, close power menu, just right to start a fight.
2. Lazy method: Loadout

miyanaa

I wish they didnt remove the powertray command.. :c it made NW so much better

pitshade

Forgemasters makes a more eXtreme noise.

d3cepti0n

Also, OP seems to forget that FF has such a loud animation sound that makes it hard for the dps to HAMSTER up their burst, unlike BtS which is very easy to miss.

rjc9000

FF got buffed on Mod13 and EmpBtS got nerfed!

Therefore, FF is the superior choice!!!!

lantern22

Forgive me if I am missing what should be obvious sarcasm, but there is no reason to slot FF and use it empowered instead of eBTS for single target, is there?

Yet, in PUG groups, I see solo DC's running FF all the time on bosses.

I'd say 50% of the times my GF dies in boss fights these days is when I get stunned by seeing the DC use empowered FF on the boss. wtf?

Am I missing something? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills sometimes . . .

Ps. Ooops, damn, should have read the entire original post, my bad

schietindebux

BtS was a buff in 20' range of the caster, some time ago. I only remember that it was a pretty bad range tbh and FF was working for allies same as BtS only for group, no clue how long ago and when changed, missed that patchnote.
Honestly I did not recognize when some buffs changed, I could swear Pillar of power was a group related buff not far ago, now I read allies..
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/550696/break-the-spirit-forgemasters-flame-distance
I know this link is no reference

michela123

They have the same area of effect and it's 50 feet, like Hallowed Ground.
https://youtu.be/MjTq1z2OwL8

almondum

Thanks alot @michela123 for your limitless will to teach your fellow clerics!

schietindebux

My range is even better, 80' (FF/BtS) vs 50' (HG), even though my DC was cheaper I guess

thefabricant

schietindebux said:

My range is even better, 80' (FF/BtS) vs 50' (HG), even though my DC was cheaper I guess

Thats the distance the skill can be cast at, not the radius of the buff.

schietindebux

thefabricant said:

schietindebux said:

My range is even better, 80' (FF/BtS) vs 50' (HG), even though my DC was cheaper I guess

Thats the distance the skill can be cast at, not the radius of the buff.

Yes your right, I targeted that dummy and thought it´s my companion, too far away need to take off sunglasses

ebriel127

I routinely run FF when doing really large group (Tiamat, demogorgon, dragon flight, etc). But that is because I assume at least one other DC is running BtS and it doesn’t stack with itself. If I’m the only DC then BtS all the time.
Though FF does look cooler.

micky1p00

I think people miss the most important thing why FF is better than BtS. It's all about it's impact on society, Break the Spirit teach us to break, demoralize, not to improve ourselves but to harm others, and destroy competition. On the other hand Frogmasters Flame has the association of forging stronger things, building, improving.
Now what example you would like to set ? Of a great builder? Or some destroyer?

vorphied

micky1p00 said:

Frogmasters Flame

Bishop Kermit, is that you?

But no, break the heathens. My cleric is more of the Jon Edwards hellfire-and-brimstone variety.

putzboy78

micky1p00 said:

I think people miss the most important thing why FF is better than BtS. It's all about it's impact on society, Break the Spirit teach us to break, demoralize, not to improve ourselves but to harm others, and destroy competition. On the other hand Frogmasters Flame has the association of forging stronger things, building, improving.
Now what example you would like to set ? Of a great builder? Or some destroyer?

Somethings must be broken in order to be reforged. Like the dreams of children

plavia

i think FF will have allmost same buff as FF in next patch.

for now i use FF:
if slow is needed (only dwarf king skirmish to be honest)
if there is another DC
in PVP if i want to do extra damage, i am not sure but i think the devine FF is stronger then devine Bts. also players dodge it less

designedbyrng

plavia said:

i think FF will have allmost same buff as FF in next patch.

As true as that is

Unknown

This content has been removed.

toporok

I was in a Fbi run today with another cleric and got called every name in the book because I was running bts (I was the Do btw) he said only the Ac should be running bts and ff. After talking to another cleric in guild they confirmed they run bts and ff on there Ac in T9G also , am I misssing something, i always though you couldnt keep three stacks of the empowered ff and bts up, are they explointing a bug on xbox? If its not a bug then what is the optimal loadout for DO? Daunting, Pod and what?

toporok

Talking more with my guild cleric they run bts and ff along with the other clerics in their group,
because they are seeing them stack is this another bug or should I be running both bts and ff?

mebengalsfan

toporok said:

Talking more with my guild cleric they run bts and ff along with the other clerics in their group,
because they are seeing them stack is this another bug or should I be running both bts and ff?

From my experience in T9

AC DC in T9 should use this...

Chains or BoH, BtS or FF, and DG on adds.
Sunburst, BtS/FF and DG on bosses.

DO should use this...
FF/BtS, DG and PoD on Bosses.
FF/BtS, DG and Chains on Adds.

If the groups is running with a MoF buffer instead of a 2nd true DPS or has Dread/Terror/Plague Fire Weapon Enchantment on two or more players and have 2 more of the Sell Swort/etc companions I forgo PoD for chains as I find PoD does not reduce the time of the runs so I run Chains instead.

pitshade

> @toporok said:
> I was in a Fbi run today with another cleric and got called every name in the book because I was running bts (I was the Do btw) he said only the Ac should be running bts and ff. After talking to another cleric in guild they confirmed they run bts and ff on there Ac in T9G also , am I misssing something, i always though you couldnt keep three stacks of the empowered ff and bts up, are they explointing a bug on xbox? If its not a bug then what is the optimal loadout for DO? Daunting, Pod and what?

The same DC should not be running both BTS and FF. If there is a way to empower both, it is a well kept secret. Neither is really worth slotting unless you are empowering them, certainly not FF. So 1 DC runs BTS. If there is a second DC, then they run FF.

The reasoning behind having DO run BTS is that the DC running it needs to be able to concentrate on maximum uptime. AC is already tasked at spamming AA as quickly as possible, so give them FF.

- Oracle has 100% uptime on TI, devotes attention to BtS and casts HG as needed.

- Champion devotes attention to AA and casts emp FF when AA rotation allows.

This allows best uptime on the best and most demanding powers. HG is more forgiving on refresh time and FF is less important than BTS.

designedbyrng

@mebengalsfan#9264
Chains and Sunburst do negligible damage from an anointed champion and provide no party buffs. Sunburst provides 6% of AP (base) when cast on allies and enemies for the bonus (Sunburst grants 4.8% of AP if you don't hit both enemies an allies), and Chains of Blazing Light provides 6.4% of AP (base).

Exaltation on the other hand provides a 12%-27% buff, depending on if you empower it, to yourself and a targeted ally, and provides 8% of your AP (base) when cast in combat.

Could you explain how Chains and Sunburst are ever better than Exaltation?

michela123

@toporok If you use BtS after empowered FF, there is a visual bug that shows both buffs up, but only FF will actually work. At least that's what happens on PC, i don't play on XBOX.

mebengalsfan

designedbyrng#4319 said:

@mebengalsfan#9264
Chains and Sunburst do negligible damage from an anointed champion and provide no party buffs. Sunburst provides 6% of AP (base) when cast on allies and enemies for the bonus (Sunburst grants 4.8% of AP if you don't hit both enemies an allies), and Chains of Blazing Light provides 6.4% of AP (base).

Exaltation on the other hand provides a 12%-27% buff, depending on if you empower it, to yourself and a targeted ally, and provides 8% of your AP (base) when cast in combat.

Could you explain how Chains and Sunburst are ever better than Exaltation?

First off, why would you use Exaltation empowered over BtS or FF? Second, Sunburst cool down is almost half as long as Exaltation. I get two Sunburst off vs 1 Exaltation and the difference is that with Sunburst I get between 9.6-12.8% AP regen when Exaltation would only provide 8% base.

Also, if you have gift of haste feat and use Sunburst in Divinity mode you increase your AP gain due to it providing a HoT.

As for chains, I use that in T9 for the stun to keep the enemies from charming my group, which makes the run faster.

Did you consider cool downs and how that can impact AP regen? I did and I also considered not only AP regen but also the positive impact of using Chain vs. another encounter has on mobs that can stun the group; if those adds are stunned, even for a second, the groups I run with can typically kill them.


I know how to play my DC and I use Exaltation when there is 1 DPS and run with only 1 DPS; otherwise I run my standard build.

Regardless of what encounter is used, if it fits and works within the play style of the player, I honestly don't care what is used.

designedbyrng

mebengalsfan#9264 said:

First off, why would you use Exaltation empowered over BtS or FF?

*cough* no reason.

mebengalsfan#9264 said:

Second, Sunburst cool down is almost half as long as Exaltation. I get two Sunburst off vs 1 Exaltation and the difference is that with Sunburst I get between 9.6-12.8% AP regen when Exaltation would only provide 8% base.

If you want to try and prove it with maffs down to the decimal points, you should probably do it correctly. It is not half the cooldown, it is 60% of the cooldown, which would only be 8-10% AP gain on average per the same time spent with exaltation. Is this 0.1% (base) AP gain per second really worth not having a 12% damage buff on your DPS? Additionally, each time you cast anointed army, you reduce your cooldowns by 4-8 seconds depending on the situation, so if every rotation contains an anointed army, which it probably should, the cooldowns don't even exist for these powers, so what does the cooldown even matter?

mebengalsfan#9264 said:

Also, if you have gift of haste feat and use Sunburst in Divinity mode you increase your AP gain due to it providing a HoT.

You have trouble landing your divine glows? Divine glow gives gift of haste as well, and It's not like gift of haste stacks.

mebengalsfan#9264 said:

As for chains, I use that in T9 for the stun to keep the enemies from charming my group, which makes the run faster.

Fun fact... chains of blazing light is a root not a stun, so it won't stop yuan-ti from charming your allies.

mebengalsfan#9264 said:

Did you consider cool downs and how that can impact AP regen? I did and I also considered not only AP regen but also the positive impact of using Chain vs. another encounter has on mobs that can stun the group; if those adds are stunned, even for a second, the groups I run with can typically kill them.

Yes, and neither the AP gain, or your fake stun can compete with a 12% damage buff. Not in any situation. If you say you need that AP gain to maintain your anointed army, which makes it its own damage buff, there is an entirely different issue at hand. That 12% damage buff on the primary damage dealer will pretty much always outperform sunburst and chains of blazing light even if you have more than one damage dealer in your group.

mebengalsfan#9264 said:

I know how to play my DC and I use Exaltation when there is 1 DPS and run with only 1 DPS; otherwise I run my standard build.

So, you know how to play your DC. That's an interesting comment considering you thought chains of blazing light was a stun.

mebengalsfan#9264 said:

Regardless of what encounter is used, if it fits and works within the play style of the player, I honestly don't care what is used.

Fitting a play style is fine. Using whatever you want is fine. But if you advise others to use a specific encounter, you had better be ready with some type of logical reasoning behind your choice because everyone who knows the optimal encounter choice will be here to tell you that you are wrong.