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Trickster Rogue - an outsider's perspective

For starters, I'd like to say that I'm no uber TR that understands everything 100%. But I leveled my TR to 70, got it geared and played with it for long enough to figure out where the biggest issues are, in my opinion of course. This is focusing on the most commonly played path.

Issues with the class of trickster rogue, from an outsider's perspective

Okay, the big one 1st. We all know that TRs are very strong on bosses that take a while, and really bad on pretty much everything else unless you're endgame and understand every trick in the book.
This originates in the nature of nature of the most commonly played paragon path - MI Executioner. The last feat in the tree - Shadow of Demise does 50% of the damage you dealt as bonus piercing damage IF you break stealth with an encounter power.
So what you usually do to make most use of your Shadow of Demise (aka SoD) is enter stealth, use daily for the extra DPS you get from either Lurker's assault or Whirlwind of blades, use an encounter on your target - Lashing blade for single target, blade flurry for multi target.

That will do the initial proc for shadow of demise. Then, you have 6 seconds in which you do damage to your target, and let's say you do 100 damage in 6 seconds. After those 6 seconds end, you deal additional 50 damage. Seems good, pretty powerful, right? Well, no. The issue is, TRs don't get to use SoD that much because things usually die more quickly than it can proc the shadow of demise damage tick that does that additional 50 damage. So in a lot of cases, TRs don't get to use their most important feat.

The next issue would be - even IF they did somehow do that extra damage, they have almost no follow up for the AoE damage. Use Blade Flurry, use Smoke bomb, and then what? You can only spam BF until you run out of charges, at which point everything better be dead, or you're in a bad position.

And lastly, sustainability. The entire class mechanic is about staying invisible, but dealing damage reduces the duration you have, while using an encounter completely empties it. So they don't get to use their entire class mechanic more than once or maybe twice in a trash fight (fight against masses of enemies), so they lose out on their DPS there too. For a comparison, a class that's usually dedicated to doing AoE damage - CW, has a feat that reduces its AoE damage, but increases its single target damage - Focused Wizardry. That pretty much covers the issues CWs could have in single target, and now with loadouts, they have no issues doing their roles (AoE DPS and a lot of single target nukes).
TRs don't get that. So not only can they not do single target consistently due to how SoD works, they also get nothing for AoE damage.
This not only makes them less desirable in late game dungeon runs, it makes them not viable.

There are some other, albeit minor gripes as well, but we'll leave it at that, shall we?

But how do you fix such a specific issue with a class?

Starting from the top - SoD. Instead of it ticking additional 50% damage after 6 seconds, make everything do bonus 50% damage during those 6 seconds. So every 100 damage hit will do 100+50 damage during the SoD buff. So basically, change it from a debuff on enemies that makes them take 50% damage after a period of time, make TRs get a 6 second buff that just makes them deal 50% more damage while they have that buff. Heck, make it 60%. Rest can stay identical. Temporary buffs like that definitely aren't a problem - it would work almost exactly like the new artifact, Soul Sight Crystal works. This would make them more viable in both single target and AoE damage.

But as I said, while they can do the initial proc for damage in AoE, they have no follow up. If they can't hit anything but one enemy during that 6 seconds, it's all rendered moot. That's why - Blade Flurry . Nerf it. By 10-15%. And change it into an at-will. This will be one of the most significant changes you could do to the class, they're in dire need of an AoE clearing tool.
Not only will this fix the issue where TRs can't deal with trash at all, this will make them viable as the main DPS in any group as they'll be able to deal with it consistently, unhampered by the normal cooldown after they run out of blade flurry charges. I can guarantee you, people would use this, not because it's so great it's a must have in any build, but because they just simply don't have the AoE clearing abilities they need for late game dungeons, and this would fix it.

And now we come to the more optional, but still definitely optimal change for the class. As I said, TRs don't get to be invisible as much as they should be able to. Here's where I propose this change. The class feature, Invisible Infiltrator increases your damage by x% after using a daily power and refills your stealth meter. Add just one more thing to it. After using a daily power, you also gain stealth for doing damage for x seconds.
This is what connects everything into one place. Use daily, use encounter which empties your stealth, do some left and right clicking with your brand new blade flurry, by the end of the buff, you've got most of your stealth back, almost ready to do another rotation.

Why I proposed these changes

Now, this is an optional part of the text, don't have to read this if you don't want to. Still would be good, so you understand my reasoning.
Let's start from the bottom. If all of my suggestions turned into reality, the class would work like a clockwork. From a player's viewpoint, none of these changes would really change the feel of the class - it would still remain a Trickster rogue. You'd still thrive to have the perfect rotation, and that would still require the skill it does now, and class purists wouldn't feel like it's a different class.
From a technical standpoint, it would increase the sustainability of the entire class just through the virtue of it being capable of dealing with different kinds of threats. The damage wouldn't go up on single target, it would be just more constant, and less of a very specific situation damage dealer. The AoE damage would because they'd finally have a tool to deal with situations in which they're fighting loads of enemies. What TRs need isn't a buff, but consistency, and that is exactly what they would get.

It would be more consistent because of how SoD works. They would no longer happen to lose that extra 50% damage because they'd always get it because it applies on-hit, rather than after a period of time. So they're not getting a buff, strictly speaking. But they'd work better, and perform better. It wouldn't necessarily be easier either, you've still got to hit the timings and positioning to make use of your arsenal, and since it's not a buff, how would people perform better?
It would be better because their main ability wouldn't be made redundant by the pace at which the player is going.



I forgot to add, as my main is a GWF, I am definitely not affected by these changes. I have no bias for or against this class, and I only played it for a short amount of time to see what's the fuss about. I have concluded that the changes would be very welcome, but not nearly as drastic as people may think. Straight up buffing their damage would be nowhere nearly as effective as doing the changes I proposed, and it would make the class unbalanced, once again.

Comments

  • kalina311kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited December 2017
    is this not what class tr class paragon should do and feat trees ? all your balance lumps one path and tree together and only deals with that .. .

    what about trs tree paragons that do not use stealth as much.. more risk reward ...shorter stealth = more damage and vice vera and remove this 100% crit from stealth dumpstat dilemma ..and give some strategic damage boosts when visible and not itced etc ..

    that is the pigeon hole problem with the tr class ..
  • maxthakillamaxthakilla Member Posts: 22 Arc User
    I agree with the original post aside for one thing. We arent "very strong" on bosses that take a while. It is our best asset indeed but we still fall short compared to good GWF, HR, GF and CW that knows what they are doing even if all the stars are aligned and we execute our SoD to its full potential. But yes i think you spotted our weaknesses pretty accurately. I am to a point that any buffs/optimisation would be more than welcome but all in all we need more BURST. Our poison (which is our main dmg) is buggy and super slow to apply, our SoD proc when everything is already dead and/or changing phases and so on. Plus our AOE is pittiful.

    Thank you for your support and ideas friend.
  • gromovnipljesak#8234 gromovnipljesak Member Posts: 1,042 Arc User
    kalina311 said:

    is this not what class tr class paragon should do and feat trees ? all your balance lumps one path and tree together and only deals with that .. .

    what about trs tree paragons that do not use stealth as much.. more risk reward ...shorter stealth = more damage and vice vera and remove this 100% crit from stealth dumpstat dilemma ..and give some strategic damage boosts when visible and not itced etc ..

    that is the pigeon hole problem with the tr class ..

    That's why I said that I only addressed the MI Exec path, since it's the most commonly played. Saboteur and scoundrel are more rare, and I don't have much info on either one, so I didn't talk about it.
  • sirjimbofrancissirjimbofrancis Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    Your SoD fix has already been suggested on several TR balance threads. We also had suggested an at-will aoe, as well. We had plenty of suggestions for sabo and scoundrel tree, too.

    All things being equal, in single target damage (outside of a few narrow situations and using things that are probably not WAI), a dps GF, GWF, or combat HR can all out dps us vs single targets. Against mobs, we fair even worse. Those are problems for a dps class.

    I do appreciate your post, though. They are good ideas, and thank you, but I am not sure the devs are hearing us at all.
    Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR
    She Looked Lvl 18

    Here is my Blog
  • gromovnipljesak#8234 gromovnipljesak Member Posts: 1,042 Arc User

    Your SoD fix has already been suggested on several TR balance threads. We also had suggested an at-will aoe, as well. We had plenty of suggestions for sabo and scoundrel tree, too.

    All things being equal, in single target damage (outside of a few narrow situations and using things that are probably not WAI), a dps GF, GWF, or combat HR can all out dps us vs single targets. Against mobs, we fair even worse. Those are problems for a dps class.

    I do appreciate your post, though. They are good ideas, and thank you, but I am not sure the devs are hearing us at all.

    The thing is, I can out-DPS some late game TRs, and some late game TRs can out-DPS me. Specifically, a guildmate can pretty much match GWFs in damage. Now, I don't know what his build is, as he's bound to have some differences compared to everyone else, but I do know that he's performing at pretty much the peak what TRs can do. He literally doubles my DPS in TONG. Reason being is - he can do everything consistently.

    Blade Flurry is a great AoE cleanup tool, and with SoD proccing on every hit as a buff instead of debuff, you'd get your bonus consistently, and wouldn't pointlessly lose damage because things wont melt while you don't have your buff.

    Also, I did this post as a summary of ideas I read, and made them a bit more comprehensive. So instead of scattered pieces of info, they got a block of text to work with. Simplicity and everythin'
  • sirjimbofrancissirjimbofrancis Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    Here was a compiled list of what we came up with the last time they told us our rework was imminent. This was compiled from a post that generated hundreds of responses.

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1231317/tr-compiled-balance-suggestions
    Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR
    She Looked Lvl 18

    Here is my Blog
  • sirjimbofrancissirjimbofrancis Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    Here is the original thread:
    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1229772/trickster-rogue-class-balance-suggestions/p1

    538 responses. What is your TR friend’s name?
    Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR
    She Looked Lvl 18

    Here is my Blog
  • sundance777sundance777 Member Posts: 1,097 Arc User
    I like that you are making suggestions for the class but I wonder how you are measuring DPS, just the pain giver board?

    I know for some of us, especially on console, that is all we have to go by but that is not a very good measurement too imo, that is very easy to manipulate in that when running familiar content, the TR can simply go after the biggest things in the dungeon that are sure to proc SoD, and I think the Orcus fight is especially favorable for single target catch up on that damage board.
    TR - Sun: 16000 IL
    OP - Sunshine: 16000 IL

    Casual Dailies
  • gromovnipljesak#8234 gromovnipljesak Member Posts: 1,042 Arc User

    I like that you are making suggestions for the class but I wonder how you are measuring DPS, just the pain giver board?

    I know for some of us, especially on console, that is all we have to go by but that is not a very good measurement too imo, that is very easy to manipulate in that when running familiar content, the TR can simply go after the biggest things in the dungeon that are sure to proc SoD, and I think the Orcus fight is especially favorable for single target catch up on that damage board.


    I'm using ACT. I ain't no idiot. Anyways, the issue here aren't the numbers as much as consistency. TRs can go after the enemy with most health, but then you ain't getting the damage you could be getting from AoE.
  • mynaammynaam Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 892 Arc User
    kalina311 said:

    is this not what class tr class paragon should do and feat trees ? all your balance lumps one path and tree together and only deals with that .. .

    what about trs tree paragons that do not use stealth as much.. more risk reward ...shorter stealth = more damage and vice vera and remove this 100% crit from stealth dumpstat dilemma ..and give some strategic damage boosts when visible and not itced etc ..

    that is the pigeon hole problem with the tr class ..

    That is a good idea . If a tr path is very strong but frowns on stealth it will fix the major problem tr's have with if they get stronger they will dominate pvp to much . take away stealth andmaybe smoke bomb and you have a way of not streanthening pvp tr's and still making tr viable in pve
    There are more than BIS players in this game
    It has been 5 YEARS since last new class this is getting ridiculous
    FORCING the majority of your player base to play 4 mod old dungeons and trial will have a bad result on player base
    Please do master/normal version of dungeons. This way content for all MOD 19 have nothing new for vast majority of player base. Giving an EVENT is not same thing as permanent content for non BIS. As we suggested in CDP
    Changes are getting so bad i would rather prefer no new changes (RIP ICE FISHING in winter fest)



  • sirjimbofrancissirjimbofrancis Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    mynaam said:

    kalina311 said:

    is this not what class tr class paragon should do and feat trees ? all your balance lumps one path and tree together and only deals with that .. .

    what about trs tree paragons that do not use stealth as much.. more risk reward ...shorter stealth = more damage and vice vera and remove this 100% crit from stealth dumpstat dilemma ..and give some strategic damage boosts when visible and not itced etc ..

    that is the pigeon hole problem with the tr class ..

    That is a good idea . If a tr path is very strong but frowns on stealth it will fix the major problem tr's have with if they get stronger they will dominate pvp to much . take away stealth andmaybe smoke bomb and you have a way of not streanthening pvp tr's and still making tr viable in pve
    What he is saying, (I believe), is that a lot of what TRs do, is enter stealth for the damage bonuses we get each time we go because of various feats that grant damage boosts on attacks from stealth. Once the attack happens, we lose stealth. So, we don't end up with using stealth for stealthy things. That doesn't mean get rid of it altogether.

    The problem is the only utility stealth gives us is 100% crit, which is useless because we do so much damage outside of stealth, we still have to have a high crit. So, at endgame, especially, stealth has zero utility for many builds because it is only used for proccing those various feats.

    Getting rid of smokebomb -which is our very best aoe encounter- would, once again severely nerf PVE for the sake of PVP. Getting rid of stealth would likewise severely nerf PVE for the sake of PVP.

    And, I'm pretty sick of us PVE TRs getting nerfed for the sake of PVP. It has happened continually since mod 5 and no real buffs apart from allowing SoD to not lose damage for lvl 73 enemies.
    Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR
    She Looked Lvl 18

    Here is my Blog
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