Mod 12.5 PvP Power/Crit/Arp Optimization

bvira

This [spreadsheet] that I made compares the % dmg boost by different enchants. You need to download it to change the values.

In short, crit is still the worst for most people and I strongly favor arpen over power since people have insane amount of DR now.

Note: I can't guarantee the formulas are all correct, feel free to cross-check
*@darthtzarr has mentioned that PvP dmg reduction shares the same cap with DR, this makes the results inaccurate in some cases, I'll change it later.

kalina311

This does not take account powers or feats or insignia bonuses that proc off of crits particularly on a cw a moderate amount of crit is always recommended

this chart also accounts only for hybrid dual stat enchants.. and not tri stats enchants like a demonic for example which are even better stat distribution wise (power crit armor pen )...having more bang for the buck ..

also that you only want to crit on targets that are within your dr range anyways

..you may want to specialise to crit to take out only low dr targets .. that you can only resonably hope to take out anyways with low to moderate gear score ..

then again a lot of guilds have both the armor pen boon and power boon and you can swap them on the fly (also artifacts )depending or targets dr and enemy team comp


hmm does this info apply with current meta to the sod 100% crit in stealth tr nope .... apply to immortal pvp pally nope ..
apply to dps cleric maybe .. healing dc nope .. warlocks not many in pvp 1 rotating burst gfs ?nope .
rangers in pvp maybe ?

so this chart applies to bis cws and some gwfs/ and builds basically
anyone with moderate gear score with the listed above classes will still have to make hard choices regarding dr targets and stacking armor pen or going with moderate power and crit ..etc

plavia

thx

rank13 and 14 mixed stat are 40% stronger compare to radiat etc.
its big diff now.

bvira

kalina311 said:

This does not take account powers or feats or insignia bonuses that proc off of crits particularly on a cw a moderate amount of crit is always recommended ...

It's difficult to account for powers that are activated by crit, but so far I haven't seen one particular power that is so good that makes crit more favorable than power/arpen, especially how power & arpen far outperform crit in other scenarios.

E.g. Can the increased proc rate of Storm Spell with increased crit compensate for the loss of DPS due to forgoing power/arpen. This isn't that easy to answer.

I can also include demonic enchant in there, but since crit is so bad, it's highly unlikely that it'd be do better than vicious.

kalina311 said:

you may want to specialise to crit to take out only low dr targets

Not sure why that's the case. As far as I'm concerned, regardless of the DR of the enemy, crit is inferior to power due to 40% crit severity effectiveness (unless somehow you have insanely high crit sev).

darthtzarr

bvira said:

This [spreadsheet] that I made compares the % dmg boost by different enchants. You need to download it to change the values.

In short, crit is still the worst for most people and I strongly favor arpen over power since people have insane amount of DR now.

Note: I can't guarantee the formulas are all correct, feel free to cross-check

Just took a quick glance at this. It looks like you didn't include the PVP damage reduction, which shares the same 20% minimum effectiveness threshold as DR. This can alter the thresholds where armor pen becomes useful even though PVP DR cannot be pierced using armor pen.

kalina311

if you are a cw warlock or ranger of mid gear score you would not over stack armor pen is my point cause you could not hope to kill bis pally tr or gf anyways ...a moderate amount of armor pen say to hit ~100% ignored(halved by pvp ) should be max cause that is what you need to take out squishy targets that you can hope to kill in your own league other rangers warlocks and cws that have moderately low dr some gfws too if focusing fire 2 v 1 eventually wearing them down

then after that you can go power crit

i dont want to confuse people reading this thread

storm spell has an internal cooldown so again only a moderate amount of crit i would say as it does not multiproc
you could get a feat proc and an offhand proc that does crit tho ...

as far as enchantments pvp go you are saying armor pen is better and demonic does favor it ...so i was saying to use that ...not to use the enchanment in the example just to compare crit vs armor pen vs power ....the tri enchanment you will squeeze out more stat points

if someone was doing a full build or layout they would use a mix of hybrid or tri enchants to fill stats then selectively take one or 1 more to tweak things of different stats

giving advice as which enchants to invest in as a new player i would say the tripple ones not the double then fill stats accordingly to your licking / build or guides


getting 12000-16000 armor pen with no mount and no guild boons is quite the feat for most people and quite impossible for some

and is not needed for flavor of the month classes that are dominating pvp tr gf and pally
and even stacked to max on a cleric or cw or warlock or whatever those classes will still not be effective or have the same bang for the buck as the above classes even with higher gear score or even maxed characters with full armor pen and they will not cause a single dent to these classes in a 10-20 second pvp combat exchange assuming opponant of equal gear score


of corse you can always take out people that are weaker then you and are stun locked and immobilised or have a sliver of life left regardless of class just less and less of these opportunities occurs to weaker classes and they are mostly hunted and not the predator

not saying you should not optimize power armor pen crit .. but unfortunately the scale of what is needed regardless of perceived armor pen "rules"is completely different for every class and swings wildly depending on guild boons mounts and equipment sand artfacts

kalina311

also my point being
a rank 10-11 enchanment with 3 stats is /are actually stronger (adds up to more stats ) then a rank 12 13s with only one or 2 stats
tri stat enchanments are just as cheap to make now that refining rps are even accross the board

bvira

darthtzarr said:

Just took a quick glance at this. It looks like you didn't include the PVP damage reduction, which shares the same 20% minimum effectiveness threshold as DR. This can alter the thresholds where armor pen becomes useful even though PVP DR cannot be pierced using armor pen.

Please elaborate, I don't quite understand.

kalina311 said:

also my point being
a rank 10-11 enchanment with 3 stats is /are actually stronger (adds up to more stats ) then a rank 12 13s with only one or 2 stats
tri stat enchanments are just as cheap to make now that refining rps are even accross the board

The point is that when you compare a 3-stat vs a 1-stat enchant of equal rank, the 3-stat one can actually be worse in terms of providing DPS in certain scenarios (e.g. Demonic r14 is worse than Radiant r12 against low DR targets). Bottom line is: More stats doesn't necessarily mean better, especially if one of the stats provided by the enchant is Crit. I do see your point of having 2-stat/3-stat enchants to provide versatility for different builds, that's why I suggested Vicious since it slightly outperforms Demonic of equal rank in most cases.

But then low DR players die in a few hits anyway so it's irrelevant to consider them when creating a build (just switch to power boon against them). People should create a build against BiS players (tanks and DPS), who mostly use unparalleled negation (50%+ DR with base def); this makes having 125%+ RI (~16k arpen) a must.

kalina311

* sigh* you really dont get it do you .. whose stats will add up higher someone wearing only single rank enchantments or someone wearing (even tho it wont appear in items level) someoen wearing hybrids will have thosands of more stats then someone not wearing them
some one with dual and tri slot enchantments will be making thier dream build tweaking stats to whatever theshold they need and whatever stast they are looking to bolster a stengh or shore up a weekness this applies to defensive slots as well

nuff said point made ... single enchantments are a bad investment beyond rank 10 or so get your armor pen to acceptable levels and then why not have extra crit and power etc cause you invested in smarter enchantments also dont forget someone will use them in pve as well and also get the benefit of extra crit also in pve people build to tickle min armor pen then build for crit

so in conclusion you are wrong the tri enchantments will be used both in pvp and pve ..people do not have loadouts with full ranks 13s and 2 sets of gear pvp ..invest in enchants that are good for both and are good both offensively and defensibly


also bearing in minds people dont have bottomless pockets to make enchantments that are only specialised for 1 thing and situation ally only against high dr targets and only for pvp ... if someone wants to dabble why should they not have decent best of both worlds enchantments as well

also i was not compring a 1 staTS TO A 3 STAts enchanment at all ever anywhere


bottom line more stat always mean better (if you know what you are doing and balancing everything correctly hitting th e dr cap etc )

darthtzarr

bvira said:

Please elaborate, I don't quite understand.

The way they implemented the -40% damage in PVP is very similar to Damage Resistance. So for example, if you attack someone with piercing damage it has 60% effectiveness. The same applies against a target that didn't deflect and you pierced all of their damage resistance.

So if I deal 1000 "unmitigated" damage to someone it will display as:

Your Daunting Light dealt 600 (1000) damage to Kanden.

Now lets assume they have 70% unpierced DR from defense or other sources. The damage is now mitigated by both layers (PVP reduction and DR). My 1000 damage now gets reduced by 40% from PVP and 70% from their DR, however, since they share the same cap, it actually ends up like this:

Your Daunting Light dealt 200 (1000) damage to Kanden.

Note that 1000 * (1 - 40%) * (1 - 70%) = 180, but I dealt 200 because the PVP damage reduction shares the same cap with normal DR. This changes the threshold where armor pen is useful. It's minor, but the last time I checked it, this is how it worked.

kalina311

yes as a cw you need to get at least 16000 armor pen to be effective as a glass cannon high dps dr penetrating cw and then have next to no health pool or defensive capabilities at all no defensive hit point deflect artefacts at all lol how pathetic/fair is that when other classes can totally ignore or completely sacrifice stats and the cw need a ,rank 12 13 enchant build to compete and other classes a rank 8 9 10 and can even be an alt missing boons


ya so what you will kamazazee to chance taking out a heavy target maybe from range and certainly not on the point
and then die second later from a few hits ...an d since you cant could not take dc to be around healing you to support your glass cannon build you are hampstered ...unless you like going out over and over again to die and sometimes if you are lucky in some 2 or 3 v 1 situation take out and catch a guy that is not used to dying .and certainly you would be semi useless in a premade as well with this build ..unless it is a disorganised free for all xbox ps4 premade style lol

there are maybe like 10 cws on the whole pc server that even have the resources to even attempt this build cause i would have like to make a dps pvp guilde for cw but its is very equipment and enchantment dependant where as a tr or gf or pally can go out with like 11k gear score and do ok

tholan

@Kalina: totally agree here! Unfortunally we CW for make a good dps need arp, a lot of arp! We need pow too! We need crit too! We need recovery too! But we will be a glass cannon.

There are class that are able to totally skip this stat balance, they don't need.

Armor pen? i don't need, My class have piercing, I just need to do a build for max out this feat.
Crit chance? If i go in stealth ( best Defensive ability ) i can have 100% crit chance, then just rotate my opponent ( SB, BB , wait for SOD, if i miss thx to my insane AP GAIN ( i've 22k of recovery, i don't need arp or crit%, placed the point here instead )i just wait 3 seconds for another BB. )

Just this 2 stat means that if you are lucky enough to having one class that have this advantage, you can save at last 30k of stat and place them where you want, you can do insane damage and be ultra tanky. Or just be a monster DPS , no need to balance the stat, my class mechanic will do the work.

Actually i'm running with 20k pow, 21k arp and can arrive to a max of 24k arp, then just change the SH Boon between arp/pow, depending on the enemy.

It's not a total glass cannon, but not tanky like i usually like.

plavia

darthtzarr said:

...PVP damage reduction shares the same cap with normal DR. This changes the threshold where armor pen is useful. It's minor, but the last time I checked it, this is how it worked.

I didn't get it.
all PVP damage is limit to 20-60% ?
in your calcultion you assume 0 Arp. but if its not 0, is it?
1000 * (1 - 40%) * (1+Arp-DR%)*(1+Arp-DR1%)...
and all cap to 20%

*DR1 is any other source of damage reduction, asrtal shield for example

darthtzarr

plavia said:

darthtzarr said:

...PVP damage reduction shares the same cap with normal DR. This changes the threshold where armor pen is useful. It's minor, but the last time I checked it, this is how it worked.

I didn't get it.
all PVP damage is limit to 20-60% ?
in your calcultion you assume 0 Arp. but if its not 0, is it?
1000 * (1 - 40%) * (1+Arp-DR%)*(1+Arp-DR1%)...
and all cap to 20%

*DR1 is any other source of damage reduction, asrtal shield for example

I'm fairly certain, but I guess I haven't tested it specifically at this point, but different sources of DR are simply added together at the same point in the equation. There are a few exceptions, but Astral Shield isn't one of them. And yes, they all share the same cap. There are things that exist outside the cap though. These are:

Deflection
Reduced Incoming Damage (CW shield, GF block etc)
Flat Damage shields (Cold Shoulder, Prophetic Action etc)
and probably a couple I am not thinking of.

Debuffs also allow the "effectiveness" to go above 60% but since these are now multipliers, it doesn't really change the armor pen/power/crit ratio, just like deflection doesn't change the formula until you add piercing damage in.

bvira

kalina311 said:

bottom line more stat always mean better (if you know what you are doing and balancing everything correctly hitting th e dr cap etc )

Firstly, this thread is about optimizing stats for PvP, I couldn't care less if people can't afford a separate set of enchants for PvE.

Secondly, more stats always means better sounds logical but is completely false. Even in PvE Azure can massively outperform Brutal (when crit < 100% ofc). This is because one stat is disproportionately better than the others due to a variety of factors, but you seem to not get this point.

Again, I have already mentioned that I know what your position is. It's all about providing versatility when using 2-stat/3-stat enchants, so basically it all comes down to which enchant can provide the highest versatility. And I disagree that Demonic is the best choice for the reasons I've mentioned repeatedly in earlier responses.

cilginordek

Draconic is pretty neat though.

kalina311

someone missed "the providing you know what you are doing" part lol
finding exceptions to the rules does not invalidate this cause someone knowing what they are doing would not be using enchantments that are the exception and worse
.I thought you said this was about pvp ..yet you use a pve azure example .... no kidding players should aim for max crit and armor pen in pve ... .. but this thread is about pvp right

in that cause there si speciality gear that has no stats that you want and you are using for a secondary effect ..this having extra stat to pad for that loss notably if some stats drop next to 0 cause they are not on any of your gear(they are tertiary ) and you are only getting them from tri enchaments ..

lets say you have none of the "wasted stats according to you "stats on gear on purpose .. and are getting the bear extra min from having that third "less usefull stat " on the enchant in the case of your example and draconic it would be crit ..lets say i have no crit on any of my gear at all or any recovery at all ... i would get it from that third stat distribution thus opening me up to use any other utility equipment with 2ndary effects that have less usefull stats when i am swapping gear according to situation ... if you swap gear ou need to have you r minimums before the optimal gear is replaced not after ...i am at work will edit for clarity later


I like demonics for thier defensive versatility as well

draconics/demoincs etc being more versatile for pve is so low on the list of points yet you start off with that first as you lead point lol

comming off as elitist not caring if someone can afford enchantments when trying to revive a dieing pvp areas also is not a very good stance to be taking either . sorry to say ...advice caretering to the very few and not the masses ..advice that less then 1% can hope to achieve

main point in balancing enchantments and using tri enchantments is that in any quickload out you can do in pvp while gear is locked/and having the versatility to use other gear with hampster stats at the same time without dropping below min accepted stat levels of any type ...not just armor pe ncrit etc you still need certain minimums is my point ...this does not breaks your over stacking or wasting stats rules or that you do not need armor pen

kalina311

I am using tri enchamtns to pad my lowest/ least needed stat (where that be in pvp or pve rules are different )which is usually not on any gear at all or very little of it ..allowing me to use other gear that have no stats i want yet the 2ndary effects i want is really what.. I meant to say lol so i am not wasting stats in areas over capping rver critting or over armor penning etc .. and yes you should not be doing that yes we agree

bvira

kalina311 said:

someone missed "the providing you know what you are doing" part lol
finding exceptions to the rules does not invalidate this cause someone knowing what they are doing would not be using enchantments that are the exception and worse
.I thought you said this was about pvp ..yet you use a pve azure example .... no kidding players should aim for max crit and armor pen in pve ... .. but this thread is about pvp right

I used Azure in PvE as an example to illustrate the point that more stats doesn't always mean better, which also applies to PvP (obviously). Whereas previously you suggested Demonic simply because people could use it for PvE as well, even if it might compromise your dmg in PvP. Anyway, that isn't important.

Crit is so bad that EVEN if your base crit % is 0 with high power, it's still significantly worse than power. This basically concludes my point. Not to mention any moderately geared players have decent amount of crit from basic gears alone.

kalina311

lets say it was a tri enchament with draconic instead of demonic .... arpen power and recovery instead of crit same example same point

like you said it " might" compromise your damage(the demonic one ) lol but again it ":might not if you know what you are doing " and have maxed out other primary and secondary stats already ...sometimes is not an absolute rule now is it lol

right.. moderately geared player might / will have enough crit from gear alone ./..but if it is a dump stat in pvp like you say that opens the flexibility to have no equipment with stats you dont need and are only wearing them for for the secondary effect ..or another reason ..

for example the helm that offers life steal deflect and defence ... or a item that changes or alters stats based on enemies and situation or duration in combat etc ..they dont always have power and armor pen on them so you need to make up for it by having dual / tri enchants


every classes have dump stats some more then others .. we get it hopefully some players can gleam something useful from all of this : D

nezdin

Thanks for the updated spreadsheet! It's a nice piece of work and very useful to see the full damage calculation. A couple of comments:

(1) I think there is a typo in the critical severity - you wrote 0.4 but it should rather be 1-0.4, right? Thanks to @darthtzarr for pointing out that this was changed for 12b.

(2) The issue with the value of crit, as I see it, is that the equation in the sheet uses an average hit. If a class has the ability to deliver rotations in quick succession, then several of those will crit, even if some other will not; so a minimum amount of crit may be a useful investment since the powers that crit are bursty. With the default parameters you set in the sheet and for constant power and ArP, a non-crit will have baseline damage of 1.09 and a crit hit will increase by 46% to 1.59; not too bad I'd say. If procs are added then the benefit is greater. In sum, how much more "bursty" are crits over non-crits is something to take into account especially since burst damage in this mod can be insane.

slysnow

Pretty good spreadsheet. Thanks.

Side note, I am a cw. My ArP is 20k. Im not glass cannon dps. Against any class not named TR im extremely tough to kill. Vs TRs i have like 80% of that survivability reduced for obvious reasons, however if I hit them I can kill them in 3-5 hits.

jonkoca

Necromancy!!!!!!