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what's the point of IL?
bluey22
Member Posts: 30 Arc User
this is something the developers need to explain themselves for. item level has no point in this game but to divide the top players from everyone else and halt game progression. here is what i mean by this:
to do dungeons you have to meet IL requirements. i get the idea of not wanting to let squishy toons into harder dungeons, but at a point that argument becomes invalid. a newly made lvl 70 should be able to run teir 1s, but not 2s until they work on their stuff a bit, and that's fine and understandable (better stats for harder content). but the issue comes with teir 3. suddenly you must be 15/16k in order to be allowed in! that's a huge gap to fill. the requirements for teir 3s say 11/12k but that's never the case. public queing is impossible for FBI,MSP,MSVA,T9G because of the catering the developers have done to the top GH20s. the only way on to these dungeons is to have everything maxed out, and be part of a guild with maxed boons. otherwise you will never get in on a private que, or even complete the dungeon. this is a huge problem. this directly punishes anyone who just started the game up to anyone in a guild under 18. so why should anyone want to try?
on top of that, to run these dungeons you must have 2dcs. this is something not negotiable ever! so now the amount of people who get to run this content (who need to run it) gets bottlenecked more. the whole thing is a joke. support classes get no help as it is leveling up, now they suddenly need to be 16k and twice as many of them? explain how that's going to happen (without buying out the Zen market! ).
the worst part about it is when someone does get their toon up to these requirements, you drop a new mod, upping everything more and just leaving everyone behind again! no time to run you through MSP for the first time now that you finally made it, we have a new campaign to ignore you with. (actual phrase i see in alliance chats from officers! )
so the developers need to explain themselves, and think real hard about where they want this game to go. because people by the numbers are giving up this game, and at this rate the situation will only get worse. the new refinement system may help (on xbox so don't have it yet) but refinement doesn't give massive amounts of IL like top end guild boons do. so i end this on one question: why should someone start playing for the first time when they have no chance at doing anything that will help them?
to do dungeons you have to meet IL requirements. i get the idea of not wanting to let squishy toons into harder dungeons, but at a point that argument becomes invalid. a newly made lvl 70 should be able to run teir 1s, but not 2s until they work on their stuff a bit, and that's fine and understandable (better stats for harder content). but the issue comes with teir 3. suddenly you must be 15/16k in order to be allowed in! that's a huge gap to fill. the requirements for teir 3s say 11/12k but that's never the case. public queing is impossible for FBI,MSP,MSVA,T9G because of the catering the developers have done to the top GH20s. the only way on to these dungeons is to have everything maxed out, and be part of a guild with maxed boons. otherwise you will never get in on a private que, or even complete the dungeon. this is a huge problem. this directly punishes anyone who just started the game up to anyone in a guild under 18. so why should anyone want to try?
on top of that, to run these dungeons you must have 2dcs. this is something not negotiable ever! so now the amount of people who get to run this content (who need to run it) gets bottlenecked more. the whole thing is a joke. support classes get no help as it is leveling up, now they suddenly need to be 16k and twice as many of them? explain how that's going to happen (without buying out the Zen market! ).
the worst part about it is when someone does get their toon up to these requirements, you drop a new mod, upping everything more and just leaving everyone behind again! no time to run you through MSP for the first time now that you finally made it, we have a new campaign to ignore you with. (actual phrase i see in alliance chats from officers! )
so the developers need to explain themselves, and think real hard about where they want this game to go. because people by the numbers are giving up this game, and at this rate the situation will only get worse. the new refinement system may help (on xbox so don't have it yet) but refinement doesn't give massive amounts of IL like top end guild boons do. so i end this on one question: why should someone start playing for the first time when they have no chance at doing anything that will help them?
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Our guild was all running msva as low as 3.2k using the old Il numbers (close to what 13k is now) and at the time we were barely guild hall 14 at best. Yes theres a sickening amount of grind for new players if they want to try and catch up fast but the way I've been seeing it lately is if you're having issues with runs then you need other friends or a new guild. Tong is built for end game players, though you can't really base endgame on an il number. Fbi and msp are difficult if you barely make the requirement but if you're familiar with your class and it's role you should be capable if your gear and stats actually support that role.
I guess I'll leave with my answer to your question.
There's a ton of games out there that a brand new player will have issues playing with veterans. If they don't enjoy the game enough to keep working towards improving to get to new content then either they need guidance or sadly the game may not be for them.
Im quite pessimistic about many things that happen in/to the game, but at the same time some of the problems are caused by the community instead of the developers. Stop passing on a third dps for fbi or msp and just run it with a tank that knows what their doing and a decent DC that can adapt to whether or not heals are more needed or if they can throw down more buffs. You don't need 4 buffs and 1 dps to do any dungeon.
T1 content should actually not have an IL requirement as you stated. It should be for anyone that has played from level 1 up to the end of EE. This would be roughly 4500 IL, give or take.
T2 is fine. Most players I talk to who have an IL issue do not have five mounts with 3 insignia so getting a mount with 3 insignia spots can boost a player IL. The players lacking IL for T2 also may not have 5 companions of rare level or higher. They may also be using R6 enchantments or lower and not using R7 or higher. With the update to gear coming, it will be even easier to get IL 435 gear and that will make it even easier to raise a player IL.
T3 is not 15K or 16K IL. That is what the community wants; it is not what is needed to run content. I have run FBI and MSPC on two of my character when they were below 13K. So it can be done without the need to be 15K+ IL. As for needing two DCs, again the community and not the developers.
I will make a statement here that I use to state often in another game. If you want to play specific content and cannot get into it but want to; take the time and use LFG to form your own group. I have ran FBI and MSPC because I used LFG to form my own groups. Was I always successful. No, but I was able to get into the content because I took the time and formed my own groups.
Do I form the meta groups. NO! If I am on my DC and I see a request for 2nd DC come into my group I will leave the group, even if I am forming the group. There is no need for 2 DC runs, period. Content can be beaten without 2 DCs. In fact, I rather bring another a CW, SW, HR, GWF, TR, etc... than a 2nd DC. The only exception to that rule is for guild runs. I will run 2 DCs on guild runs as the guild tends to have more support players than DPS and the DPS we do have typically can do twice damage of the average PUG DPS that I have picked up.
One time I pulled a 15K group and I was playing on my CW as a buffer and left after the first boss in FBI as I was top DPS, as a buffer and I was not 13K at that time and the DPS were all 15K.
Skill trumps IL.
that would help more people i think. but then again, another fix would be to have the ques recognize certain builds as what they are (templocks should be seen as healers for example)
there is no easy answer here, but it's still a conversation that needs to happen between the developers and the players. otherwise the strongest get stronger and more people are left behind.
i know the devs can't control how people play and group up. it is the nature of us gamers after all. but they can control how the game works. I'm just trying to bring light to a problem that's been going on since iv first started (about the time underdark released).
Short of them introducing a stat that calculates things like 'total damage potential' it's all we have.
However, if you have two players of the same class & sub-class and the same rotation, IL does have a place in showing ability. Simply put, if 'player one' has all rank 12 enchantments & 'player two' has all rank 10's then you're looking at a substantial stat difference in combat - including their ability to receive increased power from the buffers in the team.
Legendary companions increase this difference further, adding up to an extra 31% from the companion. In high buff groups (e.g. T9G) this can mean a difference in power stat of 50k between them. These 'player one' guys also get more crit chance etc via their companion and their own gear, they also have more enchantments by having Legendary belts & cloaks.
So whilst item level won't tell you how effective a player actually is, it does give you a benchmark on how effective you would expect them to be.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
They upped the numbers and introduced some new ways to boost your IL without it meaning anything.
People had dizzy fits over how cool it was to have 10'000 IL!!!
Some people seem to actually believe that getting that number up MAKES you more powerful, when in reality it just reflects how much gear you have of a certain level. Not whether any of that gear is particularly useful.
What happens is a player who has, say, 10.5K of useful IL will trade in 500 of it for 1000 points of useless HAMSTER so that they can climb into the 11K category.
This is why you see people using +5 rings that have no useful purpose on their character, when a +4 or even a +3 that adds to their specific class and role, makes them a more useful contributer.
One of my guildmates is still umming and ahhing about swapping out his green fire archon for a purple something... that adds something like two flat +155 stat bonuses. Simply because the crappy purple companion "suggests" he is more powerful with that, than with his Fire Archon.
Mounts?
Purple insignia of Prosperity supposedly offer 50% more than blue Mastery, but which would I rather have 6 of on my CW?
All of the suggestive power of IL is one thing when it applies to gateways to just one or two dungeons. But when it suddenly becomes the 11K IL gateway to the entire Random Epic Dungeon queue, and the 10K IL gateway to Random Epic Skirmish queue, that little number in the corner becomes the difference between keeping up with everyone else on acquring Daily RAD from queue based content, and at below 10K will absolutely stop all characters from contributing Dungeoneers Shards via the daily Cleric Quest... at THAT point it NEEDS to be more than just giving a general idea of how much purple gear you've got.
If they are saying "you need THIS to do all this content..." then "THIS" needs to matter.
And while people are improving their borderline 10.8-10.9 characters with irrelevant tat to get to 11K the people they end up running FBI and MSP with who may well have the gear and stats needed to complete it will be the ones who end up suffering.
> There's no way you can measure skill and item level is not a perfect measurement by any means but it is indicative.
>
> Short of them introducing a stat that calculates things like 'total damage potential' it's all we have.
>
> However, if you have two players of the same class & sub-class and the same rotation, IL does have a place in showing ability. Simply put, if 'player one' has all rank 12 enchantments & 'player two' has all rank 10's then you're looking at a substantial stat difference in combat - including their ability to receive increased power from the buffers in the team.
>
> Legendary companions increase this difference further, adding up to an extra 31% from the companion. In high buff groups (e.g. T9G) this can mean a difference in power stat of 50k between them. These 'player one' guys also get more crit chance etc via their companion and their own gear, they also have more enchantments by having Legendary belts & cloaks.
>
> So whilst item level won't tell you how effective a player actually is, it does give you a benchmark on how effective you would expect them to be.
I'd agree with you, but your argument seams just to be "upgrade and refine your toon". that's a different issue in itself, specifically companions. the new refinement system may help, but it doesn't apply to the cost of companions THEN upgrading them. is sort of a domino effect: you need AD or Zen to buy a companion. then you need more AD or Zen to upgrade it. if a new player is barred from making diamonds and doesn't make allot of money, how will they progress?
as for the enchantments and gear, keep in mind you usually can't go from a rank 7 straight to a 12. you obviously get more stats, but the amount you get at each level is usually less than 50 (in cases like belts or weapons). if it takes 400 crit to equal 1%, then upgrading a belt from purple to Orange, to only get 10 IL for less than half a percent, makes me ask why bother? sure it all adds up and when you get there your a beast. but the time, effort, and resources out weigh the rewards. it becomes just bragging rights. if a dps is geared right they can easily (with the right help) hit 100% crit, 75% RI, ect. without being 12k. I'm not saying do away with the IL system. I'm saying don't put such importance on it, otherwise you get the 15k tank that can't do a thing cuz none of their gear is right as said above.
just to clear the air my main toon is a 14k SW, so i potentially could be considered one of these elitists. i worked hard and paid more money then i wanted to just to get there. So I'm speaking from personal experience on this issue. I'm also not part of a GH 20 and yes iv out done 15k dps before. so my warlock should be able to reap these benefits, while also running content that's a challenge to me. as of now the hardest thing my warlock can fight is Orcus, basically telling me my work was for nothing just because not EVERYTHING is maxed out. to me, that's a direct nut shot that i paid for. i do have all the campaigns done so it's not like i don't have T9G unlocked. but if only the elite is allowed to run this content cuz of their massive guild boons, again, why should i bother? i want my SW to be tested just as much as they do, and if by chance iv messed up on my build, these players and content would be where I'd find out, encouraging me to work harder towards greatness.
as it sits right now, the key to the gateway is just currency and connections. i can't spend all day hoping to get a group when i have a job and other obligations. and i shouldn't be expected to abandon my friends/guild just to play the game. too many great players still haven't run FBI! and left cuz chult came out and now they were left in the snow. so I'm not blowing smoke. I'm more mad that i lost officers and members in my guild because of this, then i am about how hard T9G is.
NW has many playstyles combined under one roof:
1 ) single-player PVE (campaigns, events)
2 ) self-organizing multi-player PVE (WoD dragon farming, Chult HE)
3 ) game-managed multi-player PVE (PUG dungeon queues)
4 ) player-managed multi-player PVE (private dungeon queues)
5 ) game-managed multi-player PVP
6 ) player-managed multi-player PVP
7 ) social interaction (chats, guilds & alliances
8 ) market and auction
9 ) character customization and fashion
10 ) daily treadmill to keep you busy (professions, events)
And while some of these are fairly easy to implement to keep players reasonably happy, the others (pretty much everything with multi-player in the name) are highly complicated. At the core of the multi-player modes is comparing player-to-player performance. Make every character have the same skills and abilities and the game gets fair but rather boring. Make all characters unique and have different progression and people will get unhappy in all new ways: "why is it easier to play that other class", "why is that other class more powerful". Then there are also questions like "why is it that I always lose until I spent enough time or money" and "why is it that people don't want to play with me until I spent that much time or money".
So whenever players start blaming the community ...
.. I every time respectfully disagree. Players are the same in every game, it's the game design that makes a difference. Looking at the ongoing changes to random queueing and PVP I can see that developers are of aware of the existing flaws.
Developers can fix the between-class inequality by maintaining the class balance or making it easier to switch your character class.
Developers can ensure that people with the similar investment of time and money are matched within the game. When a crossover of new and old/BIS players is expected developers could ensure that both sides are happy with the gameplay and rewards.
Generally I measure the effectiveness of my characters against the bis players in my guild. Currently I'm developing my HR and TR (both around 13k) and I choose my gear very carefully, I can definitely see their progression in terms of effectiveness.
My HR still scores about 30% less than the really good HRs in my guild but I see that as a target, not a problem. I ask them for advice on rotations etc & I'm always learning.
I joined the game about 2.5 years ago and progress was definitely slow. I had no hope of getting into end game dungeons so I focused on learning, making some AD and finding a community of players I could interact with.
I got to a 'good' item level on my main (pally) organically over a long period of time and now at 16k I can tank T9G easily and be a real benefit to the team.
In terms of cost, this was something I improved on over a long period. All of my characters run Leadership for refinement and if you're not geared, just running multiple characters through easy content will earn a huge amount of AD. E.g. if I run all 8 through 2x 3 man dungeons (90 mins or so when solo) that earns me 120k refined AD which is 840k in a week - add the weekly tasks (all characters have completed all campaigns that have weekly AD tasks, that's another 180k, so roughly 1 million AD per week plus I'm making all my own refinement. Add a wanderers Fortune mount (free from the siege event) and some DH enchantments in utility slots and you'll not have enough bag space (something to spend that AD on).
I can make just as much or more by running a couple of characters through T2 salvage runs and distributing the salvage across my characters but you need a good group for that.
Yes, it takes a lot of time and effort to get that many characters with all of the simpler campaigns unlocked but this game is about grinding - it's about time. When I first started I was earning 10k per day and had no clue about anything.
There's no point in resenting those that have been around longer and can earn a lot. I could start a new account and grind up from scratch with nothing in about a tenth of the time it took me previously, simply because I now know how the system works.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
Unfortunately, very soon it won't be about whether WE look at IL or not, it will be what the Random Queue system does with it.
The fact that according to the IL system, a Guild Boon offering a +1% bonus to PVP slayer marks is worth more than the combined 8 boons of the River District and Chult... (let me repeat that... COMBINED...) shows there is still a big issue with how well IL reflects actual capability.
I struggle to reach 11K, but my guild only has one level 1 boon... +50IL.
A rank 10 Utility along with a Rank 10 PVP guild boon give a player +1000IL.
That's 1000 of essentially eroneous "suggestion" that gives about the same +IL as a full spec main and off hand artifact weapon set.
I've done the same as you with my new OP, just over 4 weeks in, most campaigns finished or not far off, full spec of basic (Relevant) gear inc Chult Weapons, Pilgrim Armour Head & Arms and a DK Brigandine, with only boots from the Guild set. Weapons, artifacts and utilities are purple, three purple mounts two blue (RELEVANT) blue and purple insignia, three purple companions two blue, R9 Bondings, 3x +4 IG companion items, and R7/8 enchants pretty much across the board.
STILL not 11k...
If I were in a L20 full spec guild... that character would be pennies away from 13k and eligible for everything.
My contention is that Guild Boons are a bit OP... but that's not going to change. What could change is the amount of IL they offer.
Why are guild boons 66%, per level, better than normal campaign boons?
Cos some of them START at level 5. Which is how a +1% to PVP slayer wards rolls in at +250 IL.
It is nonsense.
Unless I'm missing something and someone can explain why that boon is so useful when deciding who should be allowed to do epic dungeons...
People thought that adding more categories and higher scores to the way IL was calculated would make it more realistic. But now, people are likely to remove useful mount insignia and companions in order to apply cheaper purple variants that are less efffective but offer a higher IL and a route into Epic Random Dungeon and the chance to earn RAD and Dungeoneers shards. And when those things are being taken away from players in order to make them get a higher IL... you can't blame them.
Its no different to what it was before, it's simply a broader scale of stuff to measure. Stuff that can be fantastic, or useless by equal measure, but its usefuelness is less important than its colour.
Instead of just throwing more IL at players in order to play "look at the shiny shiny...", they should have looked at what actually matters when the IL is about to become the gateway to a LOT of content.
I don't think IL, as it sits, is fit for purpose.
I think a new approach needs to be taken, and that requires more than just "Replace A with B and its done" I think there need to be enough people who care enough to change it, and while people are OK with scraping in to FBI and MSP to play random queues any genuinely effective measure of how well a character is built will never be a priority.
P.S (Arma. that wasn't a rant at you, my reply was in agreement with what you said; it just got away from me a bit and veered into general vexation)
Many of us thought Cryptic had addressed the IL issue with the update that got rid of the old format. They also made it so groups can decide to lower ILs to assist other players in accessing dungeons, but players (especially the elites) will always find a way to divide. It damages our Neverwinter gaming community. Honestly, I'm not sure Cryptic can find a way to effectively address this issue. The change needs to be within the community. People need to start seeing what others can do before judging them. Should the IL caps be closer together for dungeons as they become higher? That might simplify the unreasonably requested ILs that some players call for, BUT...that would (again) put many dungeons out of the reach of players that would otherwise be fully able to handle them. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. The community is the issue. It's been damaged since long ago.
I see no reason for an IL bonus for mount speed and pvp.
The thing is, for a dps class you can find calculations from our theorycrafting players that determine things like 'total damage output' based on a players power, crit, weapon enchantment etc. The game should incorporate these as 'effectiveness level' which would be much more relevant.
@carl#6379 I completely agree with the power levelling thing, it bugs me too. The pre-L70 phase is for learning the basics of your class and if you've not gone through that you reach L70 with very little understanding.
I've always played my characters through all of the content and value the experience. I never help people power level and have told a few people that've asked me to do it properly and learn how to play.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
I really don't get the whole hating on IL system. Is it perfect? No. But guess what. You can judge a toon off of it's gear selection and it could still be utter trash.
There is no system that can quantify skill. There is no system that can quantify the variables that come with forming a group. IL is a quick snippet that you can throw out when forming a party to minimize the PMs you get to join your queue.
I ran my first FBI at 10.8k. I unlocked it, asked in my guild if someone would get me through, and later that evening the officer team had catered a run to me and my class. I wasn't amazing and I was carried through, but I was in a party talking to them and learning the mechanics. They did the same for MSVA and MSP. I returned the favor when I did T9G first and was able to take a few of them through it. No one making time for you? Find a better group to play with.
2DCs? Nah. I've done T9G with 1 DC. I've done MSP and FBI without a DC period. I can run my warlock in Templock mode and outheal Haiti's poison, Kabal's Fire, and other damage. I even ran some players though their first FBI/MSP without DC's. Its nice to have melt-squad runs, but not essential. If they require it and use things like "HDPS", find a better group to play with.
"New campaign to ignore you with?" I would have left IMMEDIATELY. Its one thing to say "not right now, but we'll get you in there." Its another to say you're ignoring someone to their face. If you aren't getting the help you need, that isn't the developers, its the players.
I agree that item level is a relatively useless feature, but it is the gatekeeper to later dungeons to prevent a fresh 70 from trying FBI because they bought the campaign. As for the Private Groups forming in PE, Chult, and other places; I always wonder why all these "Great" players are begging others to play with them. In my experience, good players are asked by other players to join them. So why aren't they getting runs all the time? Perhaps they aren't as good as they at first think.... My recent experiences in T9G have shown little-to-no decent players pugging for runs. I usually find underwhelming players like tanks who claim Orcus has no aggro and clerics who run their DPS builds in the Highest-Tier dungeon.
So again, it sounds like you're angry at your guild/alliance....you just may not realize it. There are greener grasses. We can't always get to requests the second you need them, but we do try really hard to get to them within the week AT MOST. There are guilds/alliances out there like this...and if you're not in one try finding one!
And just to follow other conversation....I'm okay with others seeing my item level. If they're dumb enough to think it matters in the least to my dungeon performance, I probably don't want to run with that idiocy anyway...