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Challenge Rated Dungeons
draconislupus
Member Posts: 205 Arc User
The idea of a random queue is not a bad idea, but the implementation of it by itself is horrible, to say the least. One of your stated goals is to help new players, but the way that you are going about it is going to accomplish the exact opposite. Attempting to force players to play your game a certain way our force them to play certain content is never a good idea. I know that was not the intent but it is the way the player community is seeing it. So here are my ideas on what could be a better way to accomplish what you want and create a system that can keep up with any power creep.
Proper implementation of the random queue system would be closer to this.
1. Introduce it with Challenge Rated (CR) (Tiered) epic dungeon content based on average party IL. That way it makes it more worth while for higher IL players to play the lower content (Pugging). Maybe set the CR for every 1,000 IL average per player. (Thought about every 500 IL but that wouldn't work.)
So for the Tier 1 Dungeons with IL of 7,500 set:
CR 1 for 7,500 to 8,500 (if 1,000) IL per player to award based on percentages below.
CR 2 for 8,500 to 9,500 (if 1,000) IL per player to award based on percentages below.
CR 3 for 9,500 to 10,500 (if 1,000) IL per player to award based on percentages below. And maybe add an extra possible piece.
CR 4 for 10,500 and up (if 1,000) IL per player to award based percentages below. And maybe add two extra possible pieces.
So for Tier 2 Dungeons with IL of 8,400 set (personally I would just change this to be 8,500 IL for simplicity):
CR 2 for 8,500 to 9,500 (if 1,000) IL per player to award based on percentages below.
CR 3 for 9,500 to 10,500 (if 1,000) IL per player to award based on percentages below. And maybe add an extra possible piece.
CR 4 for 10,500 and up (if 1,000) IL per player to award based percentages below. And maybe add two extra possible pieces.
So for Tier 3 Dungeons with IL of 11,000 set:
CR 4 for 10,500 and up (if 1,000) IL per player to award based percentages below. And maybe add two extra possible pieces.
One of the great things about this is when a high IL player gets random queued with midrange players it will increase the chance of those players getting a drop that will be able to help them versus just more salvage junk. One player with an IL over 12,500 joining a group of four players with IL of 7,400 would put them in CR 2 in their dungeon and give fresh 70th level players at least a +2 drop. That is way more helpful to them gearing up.
Another great thing it helps the coders by creating 1 base treasure table for all dungeons with only dungeon specific items needing their own tables.
2. 53rd level would work as intended due to level not being a limiter.
3. Remove the campaign completion requirement for the random queue, but keep the IL requirement.
4. Make it to where 70th level players get the Regular Dungeon bonus for their second random Epic Level dungeon. This will prevent the flood of super over powered players running leveling dungeons and ruining the experience for those leveling players. I personally hated dungeons during leveling because of the over powered players sprinting through them with no regard to the players that actually need the dungeons.
5. You could leave the campaign completion requirement for Trials as an incentive to complete them and as a recognition for doing so. Many will hate that but I think it is a good compromise.
6. I would leave some RAD in manual queuing. Maybe 400 or 500, I would prefer the full repeat amount but I'm willing to give a little on this.
7. One implemented the power creep never has to be feared again. No matter how powerful the characters get a new CR would be easily introduced to deal with them.
8. Another advantage of the CR system would be a single unified loot table, except for dungeon specific items. Far less work in the future as things change.
9. This would allow for rest creation of Challenge Rated 0 dungeons that would be for level 70 characters below 7,500 IL. This would keep them it out of the leveling dungeons and better help them get to the 7,500 IL threshold.
All in all if implemented properly and with Challenge Rated Dungeons this would create challenges in all the dungeons for all IL players. Plus it would slow down players from five minute runs because even if they queued with low level, or no, equipment as soon as they speced back up the dungeon would change to their new specs. (I would lock the rewards at the lowest level speced for the group. To prevent abuse.)
I wouldn't guarantee any level of gear, instead I think that it would be best to adjust the percentage chance of getting different levels of gear. Let's say the current percentages look like this per item slot:
Nothing: 10%
+1: 54%
+2: 20%
+3: 10%
+4: 5%
+5: 0.9%
Artifact: 0.1%
So CR 1 would use the current percentages.
For CR 2 chance to:
None: 10%
+1: 34%
+2: 40%
+3: 10%
+4: 5%
+5: 0.9%
Artifact: 0.1%
For CR 3 chance to:
None: 10%
+1: 15%
+2: 27%
+3: 40%
+4: 7%
+5: 0.9%
Artifact: 0.1%
For CR 4 change to:
None: 10%
+1: 0.9%
+2: 9%
+3: 22%
+4: 63%
+5: 2%
Artifact: 0.1%
This way there is always a chance that you will get nothing or HAMPSTER. And keep in mind these are just numbers I pulled out of thin air for an example.
All 7,500 - 8,500 IL dungeons would be CR 1.
All 8,500 - 9,500 IL dungeons would be CR 2. And yes change current tier two dungeons from 8,400 IL to 8,500 IL. So they would start with CR 2 and not have a CR 1.
All 9,500 - 10,500 IL dungeons would be CR 3. Could go to 11,000 IL or drop the current tier three dungeons requirements to 10,500 IL for simplicity.
All 10,500 - 11,500 IL dungeons would be CR 4. I think that this will allow for future dungeons better.
Plus since only drop chances are being changed new CRings can be created as new harder content is introduced and harder content is dropped from the Hero's Accord status. And would allow for creating epic version of existing and new leveling dungeons super easy. This would also allow for creation of lower versions of dungeons like FBI, but these lower that normal CR dungeons would not drop campaign items. So imagine a 7,500 IL version of FBI that would not drop any campaign specific items.
I want to point out that 75% of the coding logic is already in the game in the form of the Demonic Heroic Encounters. What would Challenge Rated material need and what does Demonic Heroic Encounters already do and not do?
1. Count number of players: Does.
2. Target same location used to display IL on Character Sheet: Does not.
3. Add values from targeted locations and divide by the number of player: Does not.
4. Change monster stats, actions, and/or types based on increased figured value: Does.
5. Change monster stats, actions, and/or types based on deceased figured value: Probably does not.
6. Change reward chances based on increased figured value: Probably does. (Would need changed if does.)
7. Change reward chances based on decreasing figured value: Probably does not.
8. Lock reward chances based lowest figured value: Shouldn't.
9. Protect reward chances against disconnects and kicks: Does not.
I realize that there are more does not than does there but the things that they do is the vast majority of the logic needed.
I would also like to reinforce something from above. I think that the campaign completion needs to be removed from the epic dungeons, and here is my reasoning why. I have over thirty years of pen and paper experience with D&D and 90% of that time has been in the Forgotten Realms. I have several hundred Forgotten Realms novels, and have read nearly all of them, and many rule books from 1e through 3.5e, including most of the rule books based in the Forgotten Realms. I have been to Gencon every year since it moved to Indianapolis and have volunteered for True Dungeon for thirteen years. I've probably coached some of you Cryptic guys and girls. Neverwinter is the first and only MMO that I can say I like playing. And the only bad experience that I have had is running the dungeons while I was leveling my first character. The dungeons themselves were great it was the experience that I hated. Having seventieth level players running just to get their AD ruin the experience because all they did was run to the end as fast as possible leaving us slower players to deal with the monsters. The current plan for random dungeons would make that even worse. And that is why I suggested to give seventieth level players the random queue AD for the regular dungeons on their second epic dungeon. Or doubling the first run AD but take away any AD for running regular dungeons.
Absolutely, beyond any shadow of a doubt, keep the campaign completion on trials. Not only does this make them a boon to those that have completed them it helps set them apart from the rest of the content. This gives a pat on the back to those players that have ground out the mods but still need to get their IL up high enough to do the Hero's Accord. The only problem, and this is a problem even in your current form, is what happens when you add a new trial in a future mod? Do the players that have been getting AD from these suddenly lose that AD until they compete the new mod? Talk about a lot of hate mail in your future. And that is another good reason to really think about the campaign completion being on to many things.
All in all I think this is the best way to help leveling players and make the experience of the pre-seventieth level players as enjoyable as possible. And it makes all of the epic dungeons viable to all IL players above 7,500 IL. And probably most important it would cut down on the five minute epic dungeon runs because the dungeon would become to tough to do that with.
Proper implementation of the random queue system would be closer to this.
1. Introduce it with Challenge Rated (CR) (Tiered) epic dungeon content based on average party IL. That way it makes it more worth while for higher IL players to play the lower content (Pugging). Maybe set the CR for every 1,000 IL average per player. (Thought about every 500 IL but that wouldn't work.)
So for the Tier 1 Dungeons with IL of 7,500 set:
CR 1 for 7,500 to 8,500 (if 1,000) IL per player to award based on percentages below.
CR 2 for 8,500 to 9,500 (if 1,000) IL per player to award based on percentages below.
CR 3 for 9,500 to 10,500 (if 1,000) IL per player to award based on percentages below. And maybe add an extra possible piece.
CR 4 for 10,500 and up (if 1,000) IL per player to award based percentages below. And maybe add two extra possible pieces.
So for Tier 2 Dungeons with IL of 8,400 set (personally I would just change this to be 8,500 IL for simplicity):
CR 2 for 8,500 to 9,500 (if 1,000) IL per player to award based on percentages below.
CR 3 for 9,500 to 10,500 (if 1,000) IL per player to award based on percentages below. And maybe add an extra possible piece.
CR 4 for 10,500 and up (if 1,000) IL per player to award based percentages below. And maybe add two extra possible pieces.
So for Tier 3 Dungeons with IL of 11,000 set:
CR 4 for 10,500 and up (if 1,000) IL per player to award based percentages below. And maybe add two extra possible pieces.
One of the great things about this is when a high IL player gets random queued with midrange players it will increase the chance of those players getting a drop that will be able to help them versus just more salvage junk. One player with an IL over 12,500 joining a group of four players with IL of 7,400 would put them in CR 2 in their dungeon and give fresh 70th level players at least a +2 drop. That is way more helpful to them gearing up.
Another great thing it helps the coders by creating 1 base treasure table for all dungeons with only dungeon specific items needing their own tables.
2. 53rd level would work as intended due to level not being a limiter.
3. Remove the campaign completion requirement for the random queue, but keep the IL requirement.
4. Make it to where 70th level players get the Regular Dungeon bonus for their second random Epic Level dungeon. This will prevent the flood of super over powered players running leveling dungeons and ruining the experience for those leveling players. I personally hated dungeons during leveling because of the over powered players sprinting through them with no regard to the players that actually need the dungeons.
5. You could leave the campaign completion requirement for Trials as an incentive to complete them and as a recognition for doing so. Many will hate that but I think it is a good compromise.
6. I would leave some RAD in manual queuing. Maybe 400 or 500, I would prefer the full repeat amount but I'm willing to give a little on this.
7. One implemented the power creep never has to be feared again. No matter how powerful the characters get a new CR would be easily introduced to deal with them.
8. Another advantage of the CR system would be a single unified loot table, except for dungeon specific items. Far less work in the future as things change.
9. This would allow for rest creation of Challenge Rated 0 dungeons that would be for level 70 characters below 7,500 IL. This would keep them it out of the leveling dungeons and better help them get to the 7,500 IL threshold.
All in all if implemented properly and with Challenge Rated Dungeons this would create challenges in all the dungeons for all IL players. Plus it would slow down players from five minute runs because even if they queued with low level, or no, equipment as soon as they speced back up the dungeon would change to their new specs. (I would lock the rewards at the lowest level speced for the group. To prevent abuse.)
I wouldn't guarantee any level of gear, instead I think that it would be best to adjust the percentage chance of getting different levels of gear. Let's say the current percentages look like this per item slot:
Nothing: 10%
+1: 54%
+2: 20%
+3: 10%
+4: 5%
+5: 0.9%
Artifact: 0.1%
So CR 1 would use the current percentages.
For CR 2 chance to:
None: 10%
+1: 34%
+2: 40%
+3: 10%
+4: 5%
+5: 0.9%
Artifact: 0.1%
For CR 3 chance to:
None: 10%
+1: 15%
+2: 27%
+3: 40%
+4: 7%
+5: 0.9%
Artifact: 0.1%
For CR 4 change to:
None: 10%
+1: 0.9%
+2: 9%
+3: 22%
+4: 63%
+5: 2%
Artifact: 0.1%
This way there is always a chance that you will get nothing or HAMPSTER. And keep in mind these are just numbers I pulled out of thin air for an example.
All 7,500 - 8,500 IL dungeons would be CR 1.
All 8,500 - 9,500 IL dungeons would be CR 2. And yes change current tier two dungeons from 8,400 IL to 8,500 IL. So they would start with CR 2 and not have a CR 1.
All 9,500 - 10,500 IL dungeons would be CR 3. Could go to 11,000 IL or drop the current tier three dungeons requirements to 10,500 IL for simplicity.
All 10,500 - 11,500 IL dungeons would be CR 4. I think that this will allow for future dungeons better.
Plus since only drop chances are being changed new CRings can be created as new harder content is introduced and harder content is dropped from the Hero's Accord status. And would allow for creating epic version of existing and new leveling dungeons super easy. This would also allow for creation of lower versions of dungeons like FBI, but these lower that normal CR dungeons would not drop campaign items. So imagine a 7,500 IL version of FBI that would not drop any campaign specific items.
I want to point out that 75% of the coding logic is already in the game in the form of the Demonic Heroic Encounters. What would Challenge Rated material need and what does Demonic Heroic Encounters already do and not do?
1. Count number of players: Does.
2. Target same location used to display IL on Character Sheet: Does not.
3. Add values from targeted locations and divide by the number of player: Does not.
4. Change monster stats, actions, and/or types based on increased figured value: Does.
5. Change monster stats, actions, and/or types based on deceased figured value: Probably does not.
6. Change reward chances based on increased figured value: Probably does. (Would need changed if does.)
7. Change reward chances based on decreasing figured value: Probably does not.
8. Lock reward chances based lowest figured value: Shouldn't.
9. Protect reward chances against disconnects and kicks: Does not.
I realize that there are more does not than does there but the things that they do is the vast majority of the logic needed.
I would also like to reinforce something from above. I think that the campaign completion needs to be removed from the epic dungeons, and here is my reasoning why. I have over thirty years of pen and paper experience with D&D and 90% of that time has been in the Forgotten Realms. I have several hundred Forgotten Realms novels, and have read nearly all of them, and many rule books from 1e through 3.5e, including most of the rule books based in the Forgotten Realms. I have been to Gencon every year since it moved to Indianapolis and have volunteered for True Dungeon for thirteen years. I've probably coached some of you Cryptic guys and girls. Neverwinter is the first and only MMO that I can say I like playing. And the only bad experience that I have had is running the dungeons while I was leveling my first character. The dungeons themselves were great it was the experience that I hated. Having seventieth level players running just to get their AD ruin the experience because all they did was run to the end as fast as possible leaving us slower players to deal with the monsters. The current plan for random dungeons would make that even worse. And that is why I suggested to give seventieth level players the random queue AD for the regular dungeons on their second epic dungeon. Or doubling the first run AD but take away any AD for running regular dungeons.
Absolutely, beyond any shadow of a doubt, keep the campaign completion on trials. Not only does this make them a boon to those that have completed them it helps set them apart from the rest of the content. This gives a pat on the back to those players that have ground out the mods but still need to get their IL up high enough to do the Hero's Accord. The only problem, and this is a problem even in your current form, is what happens when you add a new trial in a future mod? Do the players that have been getting AD from these suddenly lose that AD until they compete the new mod? Talk about a lot of hate mail in your future. And that is another good reason to really think about the campaign completion being on to many things.
All in all I think this is the best way to help leveling players and make the experience of the pre-seventieth level players as enjoyable as possible. And it makes all of the epic dungeons viable to all IL players above 7,500 IL. And probably most important it would cut down on the five minute epic dungeon runs because the dungeon would become to tough to do that with.
2
Comments
My one concern would be for the higher IL players. I have a 17k Op for example, which would have such a high chance of distorting the average that id probably get msp or fbi everytime i random queued. I certainly dont want to play those two dungeons to get my daily AD, nor would i want to pull a queue group into a dungeon they are not really prepared for. So maybe a max cap on how much of your IL is taken into account or, highe bands so youd have to have a group of reasonably high geared players to get dragged into those dungeons?
So good point and I will need to think about this.