Get Rid of Skill Kits: Replace Them with Class-Specific Useful Items and Repair Kits

safespacecadet

I'm not sure how a half-orc great weapon fighter manages to use an arcane kit. I bet a human ranger would have trouble with it for that matter. What's wrong with having things in the game that only a certain class can do?

I don't care about being able to use/interact with other class-specific nodes with any class. Not necessary. I can use/interact with them with alts or someone in my party can use/interact with them. Instead let's add more authentic D&D flavor and realism to the game.

Class Specific Useful Items (which are placed in the Useful Items section of inventory)

Guardian Fighter and Great Weapon Fighter - Whetstones (a fine-grained stone used for sharpening cutting tools or weapons)
Trickster Rogue - Thieves Tools, whetstone
Control Wizard and Scourge Warlock - Spellbook (maybe also ink, parchment, scrolls, and spell components)
Devoted Cleric and Oathbound Paladin - Holy Water, Incense, Prayer or Holy Book
Hunter Ranger - Some kind of notebook for writing down their notes on flora and fauna, trails, etc.? whetstone, quiver, arrows?

Of course, certain things wear out over time, so, where this applies, they could have a certain amount of charges to reflect that.

I don't really like the idea, but if we must have GFs and GWFs the only classes that can do dungeoneering, then, they could also have lanterns and rope or something.

Yes, I know that injury kits basically replace having to pay for repair bills on armor and gear, but why not have both? It's not really that much of a pain. Almost every other mmorpg allows for gear to be damaged or weapons to be dulled in combat. Yes, magical armor and weapons wouldn't be damaged by normal means. However, magic and magic weapons probably have the capability of damaging magical armor and weapons, don't you think?

So, we can have repair kits. If you have the Profession at a certain rank, you can repair your own gear on the road. Of course, you would need to have rank 25 in the profession to be able to use repair kits for level 70 gear. Tailoring for Cloth, Leatherworking for Leather, Mailsmithing for Chain/Scale, and Platesmithing for Plate. Weaponsmithing for GF, GWF, TR, OP and HR weapons, Platesmithng for shields, and Artificing for CW, SW, and DC. If you don't yet have the Profession at the specific rank needed to use repair kits to repair your gear, you have to seek out a blacksmith or some other npc who has the ability to repair your certain kind of gear. We will take for granted that the blacksmith and other npc repairmen in Neverwinter have the skill and ability to repair magical armor and weapons.


EDIT: Players could even repair gear for each other (with a repair kit) if there was a repair option when pressing F (or whatever) to interact with another player. Though I wouldn't expect them to do it for free. Guilds in the real world were actually guilds for trades/professions. In order to ply a trade in a certain town or city, a person would generally need to be a member of a guild. Price fixing was a common practice. So, if players could repair gear for other players, it might cost a set fee.

Also, a new profession called Tinker could be introduced. Tinkers could create gadgets as well being able to fix any type of gear. However, this would be one of the most time-consuming professions to level, on par with Leadership. If Gnomes become a playable race in Neverwinter someday, they could have an experience bonus for all Tinker tasks.

pterias

Skill nodes have become so worthless, why not? I agree having things only certain classes can do is good and flavorful. I mean, there aren't "Thieves Tools" available so everyone can disarm traps. Getting rid of skill kits would also reduce competition for skill nodes because most characters wouldn't even be able to loot the same skill node as you anyway.

Also, this could pave the way for a Bard to have a "Jack of all Trades" feature that gives them a 50% chance of using all skill nodes without a kit.

greywynd

Aren't there class-specific quest lines? There ya go. Something only your class can do.

minotaur2857

Skill kits are still needed for the explorers guild daily SH quest, I like my 100 influence (and GMs) for that.

safespacecadet

Classes also have powers that make them able to do things only they can do, so I don't see the reasoning behind the skill kits. I've been playing on and off since mod 4. When the skill nodes gave us enchantments, I never thought about it. But now, I say we don't need them. What's the point of having these class skills if I can just buy kits to do it anyway? Might as well just have the nodes be bushes, trees, ore clumps, trash piles, etc, and let us buy disposable shears, saws, picks, and gloves or something.

Also, mount insignias, uncommon and rare, are fairly cheap on the AH.

safespacecadet

pterias said:

Skill nodes have become so worthless, why not? I agree having things only certain classes can do is good and flavorful. I mean, there aren't "Thieves Tools" available so everyone can disarm traps. Getting rid of skill kits would also reduce competition for skill nodes because most characters wouldn't even be able to loot the same skill node as you anyway.

Also, this could pave the way for a Bard to have a "Jack of all Trades" feature that gives them a 50% chance of using all skill nodes without a kit.

That would be cool for bards. Though I think they would have a lower chance with religion nodes. Maybe 25-30%. Actually, they would have 75% with thievery nodes, 50% with dungeoneering and arcane, 25% with religion. Imho.

Also, bard should only get once chance with any particular node. Otherwise it wouldn't be fair if they stop selling skill kits.

greywynd

Aren't there class-specific quest lines? There ya go. Something only your class can do.

safespacecadet#3341 said:

Classes also have powers that make them able to do things only they can do, so I don't see the reasoning behind the skill kits. I've been playing on and off since mod 4. When the skill nodes gave us enchantments, I never thought about it. But now, I say we don't need them. What's the point of having these class skills if I can just buy kits to do it anyway? Might as well just have the nodes be bushes, trees, ore clumps, trash piles, etc, and let us buy disposable shears, saws, picks, and gloves or something.

Also, mount insignias, uncommon and rare, are fairly cheap on the AH.

Because the nodes for the skill you have is 100%. Kits max out at 75% and I'm pretty sure there are some spots where they don't do that.

safespacecadet

It doesn't matter that the skill kits are only 75%. You can keep trying to until they work.

Also, in real D&D, I don't remember there ever being a 100% chance for a thief (rogue) to find/remove traps or pick locks, even at max level. Usually some room for error.

greywynd

And in real D&D such things often take a base of 10 minutes to perform. You willing to do that sitting in front of your computer?

safespacecadet

Things don't actually take ten minutes when you play real D&D though. The DM doesn't hold up a stop watch and make everyone wait ten minutes of real time.

Btw, finding secret doors and hidden rooms with dungeoneering is one of the few cool things they did with non-combat skills in this game. However, at least in old school D&D, every class had a chance to find secret or concealed doors.

greywynd

No, but the DM is supposed to be tracking time in the game as well. In Neverwinter time tracks itself.

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araneax

tntslayer1 said:

safespacecadet#3341 said:

I'm not sure how a half-orc great weapon fighter manages to use an arcane kit. I bet a human ranger would have trouble with it for that matter. What's wrong with having things in the game that only a certain class can do?

you get the kits so you can open the other class specific skill kits. each class its it own kit it open with out a kit, I.E DC can open nature all kits .

I fixed it for you ,

safespacecadet

I know why (in game terms) skill kits exist. However, there is really no logical reason for them to exist. Especially since we don't get enchantments from skill nodes anymore thanks to botters. If I can't do something with one class that another class can do, that's okay. That's why there are other classes. Because they have different skill sets. If anyone can pick up thieves' tools and get them to work 75% of the time, what's the point of being a thief anyway? Also, why do these thieves' tools break every time after you try to use them, successful or not? If they are so shoddy, how do they work in the first place?

In tabletop D&D, only rogues can use thieves' tools with any kind of proficiency.

greywynd

And in the game there are no thieves' tools and no locks to pick.

safespacecadet

greywynd said:

And in the game there are no thieves' tools and no locks to pick.

I know. I think that should change. See my original post. I made some additions.

EDIT: Though we sort of do have thieves' tools. Only they're not used to pick locks at the moment. What is in a thievery skill kit? Also, how does a rogue find/remove traps without thieves' tools?

greywynd

Ever stop and consider that you're overthinking the issue?

safespacecadet

No, because this game could be a lot more fun. What if there were more opportunities to use class-specific non-combat and utility skills in skirmishes and dungeons? They already plan on having random queues, so it could totally work. If you have the right class or classes in a dungeon or skirmish, you could be able to complete it more easily or explore areas to which you wouldn't otherwise have access. Basically, it would be a way to bring more D&D style mechanics and situations into the game. Or are you totally happy with just killing and looting in dungeons and skirmishes all the time? Do you not want anything more from an mmorpg?

This game may be 4 years-old, but so what? That's not too old to change and improve. There's another certain mmorpg that is thirteen years-old, but people still play it. A lot of people.

safespacecadet

greywynd said:

And in the game there are no thieves' tools and no locks to pick.

Actually, you can pick a lock with a rogue or with the thievery kit in The Pirate King's Retreat.

preechr

Tricksters could have one shot at picking the locks on chests that would normally require dungeon keys, opening them up for everyone in the party

safespacecadet

preechr#2215 said:

Tricksters could have one shot at picking the locks on chests that would normally require dungeon keys, opening them up for everyone in the party

I made a thread regarding this idea months ago. It's called Why Can't Rogues Pick Locks?

preechr

I just want to Turn Undead

safespacecadet

I made a thread about that too.

greywynd

If you want to play a stand-alone single player D&D game, they are out there. As people keep saying, Neverwinter is only D&D in name. Not in function.

Otherwise, get your friends together and break the books out.

safespacecadet

Is D&D in name only all Neverwinter can be and all you ever want it to be?

I'm about to start playing Baldur's Gate 2 actually. Never played it before. Already rolled up a bard. If all Neverwinter wants to be is World of Warcraft with action combat, I'll be done playing soon. And I'll never spend another cent on the game. Or any mmorpg like it.

pterias

I hate to say it, but greywynd is basically right, this is an mmo wearing a D&D costume. Part of it was because it was built using 4E, but it didn't even do that very faithfully. They are trying to evolve parts of it into 5E, but really the only thing they've done so far is the Paladin class.

There are lots of things I'd also like to see to make more D&D-like, but it's likely a fool's hope. I've always wished that Stealth had a counter in Perception. You'd still disappear when entering stealth, but every few seconds, someone facing your location would have a chance of noticing you. Perception would be based on Wisdom and a Perception stat. It would also increase the range at which a Stealthed character would become visible. Something like that would be a lot easier to implement from the start than retrofitting it into our current system where rogues get to cast the Greater Invisibility spell practically at-will.

A lot of these kind of ideas would be easier if done from the beginning, which means most will probably never be done.

greywynd

pterias said:

I've always wished that Stealth had a counter in Perception.

And yet, at the same time, the game doesn't have a true stealth mechanic. The closest it comes is in PvP matches.

pterias

greywynd said:

And yet, at the same time, the game doesn't have a true stealth mechanic. The closest it comes is in PvP matches.

Yeah, that was my point, in a roundabout way. The game was designed around certain assumptions (in this case, Stealth is not a D&D-like stealth mechanic, it's basically an Invisibility spell) that gets in the way of trying to build other more D&D-like features (like Perception) into the game without a LOT of restructuring. It's the same story with a lot of other cool things like picking the lock on a dungeon chest, turning undead, etc. It sadly stacks the deck against adding in quite a few things that would make the game more like "D&D".

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safespacecadet

Played Baldur's Gate 2 a bit yesterday. I actually don't like the real-time combat when I'm controlling a group in an rpg. Real-time combat works for Real-Time Strategy Games where your troops and laborers don't have many options, but I don't think it works that great for an rpg where one person is controlling an entire party. Still, I'll play through it eventually. Playing on normal difficulty where my party members can actually die. I think I'll start over as a Fighter though. Probably easier to learn how to play that way, since Bard can't cast spells and wear armor at the same time. (Which is true to D&D, I'm not complaining about it.)

Anyway, wanting Neverwinter to be more like real D&D may be a fool's hope, but it's not like it's impossible.

What do we really want, just another module with another campaign to grind for more boons and new gear, or do we want to the developers to spend some time revamping the game and making the entire experience more fun all the way through? Also, do we want them to keep telling us they need to fix this or that class instead of introducing new classes? It doesn't seem like the classes ever really get fixed, but they keep using that excuse.

preechr

You'll get used to the combat system, and at a point your party will be face-rolling everything
Are you not pausing periodically to set up "rounds?" (for lack of a better term)
You may find it better to set up your main character as somewhat tanky with the ability to heal your party... obviously I'd recommend Cleric lol
Also remember you can set your companions' AI types, which is nice