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SWs well behind the class rankings
golgorzed
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5 Arc User
With the recent Warlock's bargain nerf, i am feeling really frustrated.
I have a fury SW, full r12, made with exaustive ACT analisis, PVE and PVP builds.
In both cases, the SWs dps and survivability stay well behind GWFs and even GFs.
Recently, a fellow SW answered a LFG asking for HDPS and got the following response:
"SWs are not HDPS".
Sad as it is... Its true.
I love this class. On tabletop games, i am always warlock. Always!
But in tabletop, we can homebrew to solve the class problems. In Neverwinter, we can only post and pray.
Locks have absolutely NO reliable burst options. NO reliable, binary dodge invulnerability like wizards and rogues. No damage reduction mechanics like GF, GWFs or OPs. NO quick animation powers like GWFs. NO reliance on at-wills as primary damage options.
We see other dps classes (who should DPS. period.) not just out-dps us, but out-healing and out-tanking (yes, GWF, i am looking at you). We see even tanking classes out-dps (GFs and OPs). Damn, even the Support ones deal more damage and have more tanking capabilities...
RULES THOSE CLASSES SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO HAVE!
And as DPS, SWs are well behing the others.
Our class belt+cape+artifact iconic artifact equipment (the black ice) does insignificant, damage.
Its outdated, and has a sad, sad proc rate.
Devs, please.
Send the SWs some love.
I have a fury SW, full r12, made with exaustive ACT analisis, PVE and PVP builds.
In both cases, the SWs dps and survivability stay well behind GWFs and even GFs.
Recently, a fellow SW answered a LFG asking for HDPS and got the following response:
"SWs are not HDPS".
Sad as it is... Its true.
I love this class. On tabletop games, i am always warlock. Always!
But in tabletop, we can homebrew to solve the class problems. In Neverwinter, we can only post and pray.
Locks have absolutely NO reliable burst options. NO reliable, binary dodge invulnerability like wizards and rogues. No damage reduction mechanics like GF, GWFs or OPs. NO quick animation powers like GWFs. NO reliance on at-wills as primary damage options.
We see other dps classes (who should DPS. period.) not just out-dps us, but out-healing and out-tanking (yes, GWF, i am looking at you). We see even tanking classes out-dps (GFs and OPs). Damn, even the Support ones deal more damage and have more tanking capabilities...
RULES THOSE CLASSES SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO HAVE!
And as DPS, SWs are well behing the others.
Our class belt+cape+artifact iconic artifact equipment (the black ice) does insignificant, damage.
Its outdated, and has a sad, sad proc rate.
Devs, please.
Send the SWs some love.
11
Comments
The SW must have the lowest or equal lowest default AC rating on their chest armor.. I think seems to be 8AC from memory.. sure you can use lifesilk or zulkirs for more AC but those stats slowly getting more and more sub-optimal as the newer gear arrives.. considering the constant nerfing of SW they could give them a bit more AC on their Armor for a small bit of help against damage, especially if they start changing how lifesteal works.
SW is a great class still.. one of my favorite classes , I can stay alive being swamped by numerous extra mob kiting enemy that are the norm in Chult.. those fun fights where somehow you or you pet have brought every damn enemy within 100' on top of you. SW seems to handle that pretty well with lifesteal comparable to my slight better geared gwf that also needs lifesteal to stay alive in those situations too.
At least give SW 10AC like HR on their armor.
just my 2c
SWs can have really high max HP due to CON being appealing for the class, which means that %HP based healing is very effective on warlocks (and there are a lot of these, from mount insignia powers to class features). Warlocks (Soulbinders, especially) can stack a staggering amount of %deflection very easily, much more easily than even some paragon paths like the AC cleric. There are some really, REALLY tanky warlocks in PvP and they can afford to be tanky because of weird game mechanics (like thorns damage) that allow them to deal decent damage while wearing more defensive gear. Good SWs can actually "dodge" attacks just by timing shadow slip, and this happens very often in PvP. Finally Warlocks can stack a staggering amount of damage reductions on their enemy, which increases their survivability. And finally Black Ice is NOT an SW set. That's a stupid assumption especially since Akar Kessell is a mage and Black Ice was already in the game before warlocks were released.
The main problem with SW goes down to how it's basically lost its ability to deal massive damage. Ideally even an SW equipped with defensive gear should be able to inflict massive single/multitarget damage because that's what the class was supposed to be about, unlike something like the GWF, which has a rage mechanic (ie, it's supposed to get stronger overall as fights last longer) and the CW, which has blanket AoE damage capability and control (which, granted, is arguably dead in PvE).
The class also has limited means of surviving prolonged fights outside of running away, especially against multiple opponents since its enemy damage reduction powers are single-target. Powers like BoVA can go on cooldown, Shadow Slip loses DR bonus per second it is used, and Shadow Slip's movespeed boost is just meh these days... not to mention buggy mechanics like how Shadow Slip doesn't always protect you from control powers. Again, this wouldn't all be so bad except in our current reality there is just no damage there to speak of - all SW specs are affected by this.
Also, SW at-wills are designed to be complementary (like any caster's) instead of being your main source of damage (like a warrior's). You would do well to notice that pattern, it tells you how certain paragon paths work.
Rangers and rogues preferred leather armor, as it gave them protection while not inhibiting their quick reflexive moves and hiding abilities. So their AC should be greater than a mage class.
Whereas, divinity magic, used by Paladins and Clerics was not inhibited by armor and so they could use the heaviest armor.
The black ice set is seen as the warlock set because of the +2 to con and cha, but the set bonus is useless and you can make up the arm pen else where. The demonlord set with it set bonus matching with Executioner's Gift fury feat, +2 con (our damage boost), then deflection stats helps with our survivability. Just idling, I have 11% deflection chance with 37% chance with BoVA running.
Sorry, not interested. You are actually holding a broken setup as a standard? Oh sure, we should all be broken in PvP so no one can kill anyone else. Like I said, please stop making a fool of yourself. Actually, you've displayed a remarkable inability to use common sense and a distinct lack of analytical skills. Why go on about Black Ice? Multiple people have already pointed out about how pointless it is as "the" warlock set, it's merely just "another" warlock set, and whether or not it works is irrelevant because it's an item balance issue.
And obviously if the core class is broken then items, which were designed to improve your character, would not be as effective. Like DUH.
Oh, and actually using *possible* tenacity changes even though the whole thing is still up in the air (with the debate going back and forth) to argue your point? That makes you just another sensationalist. Nice way to destroy your cred, there. Note that I'm actually giving you the benefit of the doubt here, since the alternative is that you simply can't read. Just in case though, here's your TL;DR - the tenacity STAT is going away, but the IDEA of tenacity is staying and is actually getting several improvements.
Not to mention that the fact that all of that is irrelevant when considering the true issue, that the SW has lost the ability to inflict massive single/multi-target (not AoE) damage. It was obviously never designed to be a long-term tanky class, but a situational-ly tanky or perhaps elusive one, especially when one considers that most "tanky" changes were added only relatively recently as a sort of consolation prize.
I've already said this part in my previous post but I'm repeating it just in case you've inexplicably lost your reading comprehension skills too.
Feel free to argue about the SW's role in the current the meta, but let me let you in on a little secret - IT DOESN'T HAVE ONE. Tanky DPSer? GWF, still OP, check. AoE specialist? CW, barely holding on, check. Versatile DPSer? Hunter, check. Buff/debuff/multi-role DPSer? DC/Paladin/GF, check. Gasp - the SW doesn't fit anywhere! DUH.
The one thing that the SW (and the TR, the other maligned PvE-wise class) are supposed specialize in is single/multi-target damage, and yet these classes underperform in PvE. At least the TR still has PvP - though it has had to resort to all manner of questionable and buggy tactics/exploits to remain in that position - that's the class you're holding as your standard btw.
The gist though is that massive single target damage SHOULD be the SW's standard - ideally the SW should even SURPASS the TR because unlike TRs warlocks lack escape skills.
This part is very important because people need to understand what the SW is about, so when the devs propose changes people don't reply with something stupid like "make us more tanky" when they should instead say "give us back our massive single/multi-target DPS."
Of course, I see myself as a player who strives for balanced changes which is I'm only advocating for just "massive damage" instead of "massive damage AND tankiness". IMO Neverwinter has seen enough massive PvP imbalances. You seem to be interested in arguing that point, frankly I don't care about those arguments.
Please stop using words like "knowledge" if you only care about furthering your own agenda. Feel free to argue about the warlock and its relevance to the current meta despite the fact that the warlock is failing at the one thing its supposed to do well - to the point that SWs are outraged when the devs try to fix an obvious exploit, simply because they're that desperate to increase their DPS output - but I prefer to think of the future because the new devs are promising, and at present I'm mostly just interested in playing my character regardless of handicaps.
Hell GFs had to wait like 8 mods to even get to their comfortable spot, I can wait a a few mods.
It goes back to the fundamental ideal of balance. If they fixed this bug the same patch as a full feat rework, or hell even a small dps buff to help hold us over I don't think anyone would complain, but it's important to understand how massive this change really is for SW's. We're talking about SW's on preview reporting and screen-capping ACT files displaying a dps loss of over 40%. 40 HAMSTER percent for a class that's already one of the lowest dps outputting classes in the game.
Personally I wouldn't have a problem with this if SW's had another role, but they don't. Their buffs are mediocre at best, and they don't have any viable debuffs to speak of. None that I would use in a party setting anyway. Plus, with the nerfs to OBC, you are harming templock severely. A 40% loss in dps translates to a 40% reduction in healing, since templock damage translates directly into healing through your lifesteal stat. SW's shouldn't be tanky, EVER, and thankfully they aren't. But, this means that there's literally no place for them in dungeons. As was stated before, SW's are already in a weird state of not having a role. Templock healing at very high itemlevels is good, but heals don't matter at that level. Even in things like TONG, there isn't really a place for a templock, since 2 DC's can do better than 1DC 1temp.
My point being, Why remove a class's already limited ability to fit in a group for a "couple mods" when you could have just as easily left the bug in place, and kept SW's bad, but playable bad. It's not like the damage from OBC was pushing SW's dps to be off the charts, so why leave them in a state of role-less limbo while we wait on a promised rework? Who would ever take an SW on a run, no matter their item-level post the 24th? Literally anything an SW can do, another class can do better.