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Pillar of Power - Minor changes suggestion

pyrosorcererpyrosorcerer Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 135 Arc User
In many forum threads people come with tons of great info and ideas about which powers to change, why they need changes, why they work bad/well and how they suggest them reworked.

With the upcoming nerf to the Owlbear Cub we can finally view this power, Pillar of Power, as one independent encounter and tweak it to work as desired. There are some small tweaks to this that would really be helpful, and maybe not that hard either, to help the SW class a bit up on its feet.
Without the bugged sync with owlbear cub the damage is quite pitiful, in addition the damage ticks are quite useless for most other procs as well. Other classes can do great things not necessarily because one power is so insane, but because they got combinations of powers that work well. Which I think SW should have as well.

Here are the changes I suggest:
  • Let the power crit! SW requires crit to proc lesser curses through All-Consuming Curse to thereafter proc Creeping Death (for other paragon trees just for the lesser curse itself). How come one of the most obvious AoE attacks the SW got is locked to not being able to crit? We need this to crit, not mainly for damage, but for the fact it would proc curses which would work well with how the class is today. That it can't crit really doesn't make much sense in my honest opinion.

  • Increase Pillar of Power damage ticks. With the buggy owlbear cub the damage on pillar of power was very high in AoE situations, but even though it did not make the class overperform. Most people agree to that this extra damage pool only made us closer to where other dps classes are today. Removing this as is being prepared on preview will set the class some steps behind on damage, and people have spent lots of AD on this. An easy suggestion would be to tone up the damage that the pillar does to make overall dps better. It is also quite fair to do so as this is another power that forces our ranged, squishy class to have to go close combat amongside GWFs and TRs. Actually a lot of our powers are more towards close combat than ranged.

  • Increase the Lesser Curse damage (DoT). Not directly linked to Pillar of Power, but would be nice. The overall damage the lesser curses do is not that great, and increasing this damage would be very helpful. They are far too cute and friendly as they are now. If not increasing their damage is an option, they should have some other effect to make them more useful. We have an entire class feature only made for proccing them, so they should be worth proccing.

Comments

  • hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 794 Arc User
    edited September 2017

    In many forum threads people come with tons of great info and ideas about which powers to change, why they need changes, why they work bad/well and how they suggest them reworked.


    Increase the Lesser Curse damage (DoT). Not directly linked to Pillar of Power, but would be nice. The overall damage the lesser curses do is not that great, and increasing this damage would be very helpful. They are far too cute and friendly as they are now. If not increasing their damage is an option, they should have some other effect to make them more useful. We have an entire class feature only made for proccing them, so they should be worth proccing.
    Why not rework Deadly Curse class mechanic so it would boost up DoT dmg output by ~8%?

    It's quick idea.. :) But more less I had in mind to use this class mechanic as tool to apply some DoT's, while removing Creeping death from furry tree and replace with something else, which would boost up dealt dmg over all.

    So players would had options too choose, either DoT based SW or Burst powers based SW.. :)

    When shouts of arogance and selfishness stops, you can hear the whispers of truth and honesty.

    ==================================================

    Status: Vacation.
  • pyrosorcererpyrosorcerer Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 135 Arc User
    @bloodyspamer
    Well, completely removing creeping death and completely reworking it is a big job that requires lots of time, as we know now the time limit for these "balances" is quite short. Therefore we would have to keep changes small and quick, so trying to come up with ideas that would fit into their supposed time limit.
  • hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 794 Arc User

    @bloodyspamer
    Well, completely removing creeping death and completely reworking it is a big job that requires lots of time, as we know now the time limit for these "balances" is quite short. Therefore we would have to keep changes small and quick, so trying to come up with ideas that would fit into their supposed time limit.

    And this is one or biggest warlock problem..
    In order make it viable, it require big rework, not small/cosmetic ones, but big one. @amenar, had 1 month for rework. What happened?
    Well he reworked SW, but not in deep. Mostly focused on dead paragon path, and least used powers.
    And probably best thing where curse consume removing..

    During rework, he wrote, that temptation tree need more love, but he had not time for it's rework..


    So as U can see, time its problem. Within 1 month, to rework class is impossible, unless u want fully over glitched class in game.



    Now before rework, need to do some studding,. Thats mean, u checking class what wrong with him. Checking class forum, talk with players, read their suggestions/feedbacks.
    And only then start developing/adjusting/buffing.
    Not just developing, and latter wondering why players don't like x stuff, which non one needed in first place.. :P

    When shouts of arogance and selfishness stops, you can hear the whispers of truth and honesty.

    ==================================================

    Status: Vacation.
  • tyrtallowtyrtallow Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 747 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    Frankly I'm more interested in knowing why Tyrannical Curse debuff doesn't stack with Warlock's Curse. If they managed to get that to work + increase Soul Puppet Soul Investiture stacks to 12-15 (and move that buff icon to the warlock instead of the puppet, because atm it's almost impossible to track how Soul Investiture stacks you have) then the world would be all rainbows and unicorns and puppies. Take away the owlbear? Sure, why not. Everyone honest knows that change was coming. BUT we were expecting more progress on the SW class by the time it happened - that just isn't the case atm.

    With these changes, at least, warlocks as a whole would benefit and it would be consistent with how warlocks were intended to be single/multi-target damage specialists (since blanket AoE damage/control is the purview of the CW). It would also make sense that damnation would gain high single target damage in long fights (not to mention the appropriate trigger powers - Hadar's Grasp and Wraith's Shadow - are debuff powers instead of damage powers which would be consistent with how damnation is supposed to "aid allies" and "weaken foes") and Temptation at least gets a single target 20% damage bonus on daily use (+multitarget damage link bonus) until you guys figure out how to actually make that paragon feat path work.

    Fixating on PoP seems pointless and rather selfish, considering that it's paragon path-specific and is also already a group buff AND debuff power. I'd be open to an argument about Soulscorch (requires aiming, setup, timing and soul spark resource management) but PoP? Seriously? I wonder how much extra damage that power alone generates through buff/debuff bonus damage when your party DPSers/the boss are standing on it.
    Post edited by tyrtallow on
    You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
  • pyrosorcererpyrosorcerer Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 135 Arc User
    @tyrtallow Well now as I stated earlier this is an attempt to come with quick changes that would benefit the warlock and not be time consuming, as I stated they do not prioritize these balances and spend close to no time on it it seems, so ofc I have big ideas around how it could be, and myself also was thinking of making a post about damnation changes quite similar to the ideas you wrote above.

    BUT the point being they don't care to put time into these big changes so smaller minor ones that already in some way has been tested (as above owlbear cub+pillar, but combined) would require very little time and be helpful.

    And why Tyrannical Curse doesn't stack with Warlock's curse is intended as it overrides Warlock's curse. At least how they have stated it before. Why they choose this solution I don't know.
  • hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 794 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    @tyrtallow,
    Prior mod 10 and Tyrannical Threat rework to Tyrannical Curse(current).
    You could combine TT + curse, and you gained ~38% dmg increase. Plus add old TT mechanic, which allowed to curse(mark) 3 targets. and once u hit any 1 of marked/cursed. It start do deal aoe dmg toward everyone around him. Including hitting other 2 cursed, which also start hitting others. Which lead to locked chain reaction. Even if SW stopped hit, the dmg madness continue till TT time ends.

    with mod 10< @amenar, wrote that TT worked not as intended from very start(mod 4), Thats mean. all this time SW dmg where based on glitched power.

    When it got fixed, not nerfed, but fixed. It show up all SW flaws. Weak other powers. and that SW where 100% depending on that single power.
    So @amenar, buffed other powers, some even get 40%+ dmg increase. Yet we still not close to other strikers. <


    Why I wrote that? well simply to get that< we should not repeat same mistake, and make SW depending on 1 power. So more less I don't think we need buff PoP anymore.
    My only suggestion toward PoP would be, is merge PoP and PoNH feat. < because all HB's pick them anyways.
    Plus it leaves free spot within damanation tree, for new feat.. :)



    One thing I partly like what @amernar, did. Is flame of empowerment class feature rework.
    In past, if u have full AP< you get 8% outgoing dmg increase.
    On top you can add offhand feat 3% + 5% due feat(gatekeepers empowerment). More less combined u had 15%+ outgoing dmg increase.
    But weakness is that u must had full AP..

    What now we have is FoE, increase dmg by 2% per stack which stack up to 3 times. means 6% dmg increase toward single target. < but for aoe it's nothing..

    My proposal would be, make that FoE provided 6% outgoing dmg by default. + when using at will power, player stack debuff(current mechanic) which increase dmg toward affected target by ~2% which stack 2 or 3 times..
    Or even 1% per stack and stack up to 4 times.

    So this would boost up performance for multitarget and single target.


    Next, SW's main Ability Scores is CHA. Which gives 1% crit chance, 1% Companion stat bonus, 1% Combat Advantage damage.

    I would say, devs could play around with CHA provided values. That would lift up SW performance drastically.

    When shouts of arogance and selfishness stops, you can hear the whispers of truth and honesty.

    ==================================================

    Status: Vacation.
  • pyrosorcererpyrosorcerer Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 135 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    Sure, mine is just an idea. However Pillar of Power should at least be able to crit, mostly for proccing things that rely on crits. Especially as SW is a crit heavy class (most of the times) and essential feats rely on crits procs (ACC -> Lesser Curse - > Creeping Death).

    Anyways the total damage PoP wouldn't be so insane anyways. 18% buff for only party members -> in current meta max 1 more dps :)
    Post edited by pyrosorcerer on
  • jaime4312#3760 jaime4312 Member Posts: 844 Arc User

    Sure, mine is just an idea. However Pillar of Power should at least be able to crit, mostly for proccing things that rely on crits. Especially as SW is a crit heavy class (most of the times) and essential feats rely on crits procs (ACC -> Lesser Curse - > Creeping Death).

    Anyways the total damage PoP wouldn't be so insane anyways. 18% buff for only party members -> in current meta max 1 more dps :)

    Pillar does need to crit indeed and its base damage to be increased so it is hands down HB SW's most versatile power (good aoe good single target) and only 3rd to KF and SS in single target dps.

    I'm not sure what you mean with your comment regarding PoP but, just in case: feated pillar is 24% damage increase for the SW and 18% damage for group members.

    SW needs a substantial damage increase and cooldown/casting time reduction accross the board so the class can perfom well regardless of paragon and situation.
  • tyrtallowtyrtallow Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 747 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    @bloodyspammer

    @tyrtallow,
    Prior mod 10 and Tyrannical Threat rework to Tyrannical Curse(current).
    You could combine TT + curse, and you gained ~38% dmg increase. Plus add old TT mechanic, which allowed to curse(mark) 3 targets. and once u hit any 1 of marked/cursed. It start do deal aoe dmg toward everyone around him. Including hitting other 2 cursed, which also start hitting others. Which lead to locked chain reaction. Even if SW stopped hit, the dmg madness continue till TT time ends.

    with mod 10< @amenar, wrote that TT worked not as intended from very start(mod 4), Thats mean. all this time SW dmg where based on glitched power.

    When it got fixed, not nerfed, but fixed. It show up all SW flaws. Weak other powers. and that SW where 100% depending on that single power.
    So @amenar, buffed other powers, some even get 40%+ dmg increase. Yet we still not close to other strikers. <


    Why I wrote that? well simply to get that< we should not repeat same mistake, and make SW depending on 1 power. So more less I don't think we need buff PoP anymore.
    My only suggestion toward PoP would be, is merge PoP and PoNH feat. < because all HB's pick them anyways.
    Plus it leaves free spot within damanation tree, for new feat.. :)

    You are wrong. Warlock powers are unique because the devs who designed them had become better at designing powers so that they don't exactly compete with each other, but are more/less effective under different conditions. Tyrannical Threat/Tyrannical Curse was SUPPOSED to be the Warlock's go-to daily against any ultra-tough mobs, which is why it's SUPPOSED to be your go-to power against bosses. Note that this power was also created during a time when dungeons still had waves of mobs - you're were not fighting just one tough mob, but several.

    Each warlock daily has a unique property that makes it more/less effective under different conditions. Brood of Hadar is a crowd control+burst damage power, for example, which is why it's so popular in PvP. Accursed Souls/Flames of Phlegethos are the the go-to AoE powers for squishier mobs, with Accursed Souls favoring damnation feats (generates Soul Puppet/Soul Investiture) and Flames of Phlegethos favoring everyone else (the DoT effect is even useful for Temptation). Even the warlock's underperforming daily Gates of Hell was supposed to be Hellbringer's AoE counterpart to the Soulbinder's Immolation Spirits, which obviously favors single target.

    So I'm not sure why you're complaining that the power DESIGNED to be used against tough mobs is being used the way it was meant to be used.

    You are also using the wrong context for your post. Mod4? Seriously? The warlock you describe comes from a time when Control Wizards were supposed to be CONTROL wizards (the damage was more a side effect of rampant power creep, which made even soloing epics possible for anyone with good enough gear) and where Great Weapon Fighters were designed so that they had to be careful when they used Unstoppable because of how powerful it was. This was a time when control wizards didn't have that ridiculous casting time they have now as their new benchmark (which is stupid because nowadays they can actually fire off encounters - spells - faster than the warlock, whose magic is supposed to be instinctive - the fact that this change was originally supposed to be a nerf only makes the whole thing even more stupid) and when devs were actually working on scaling back Great Weapon Fighter Unstoppable so that it worked more like the rage/berserk mechanic it was supposed to be.

    Those days are GONE. Based on new content control as a key mechanic is dead and the current Control Wizard is nothing more than damage dealer with a fancy name. The Great Weapon Fighter is now really nothing more than a melee damage dealer. Both of these classed may as well be named "Wizard" and "Great Weapon User".

    Finally those days were a time when debuffs were also multiplicative, which is why debuff effects had to be tightly controlled (and I suspect this is one of many reasons why some debuffs worked more like ArP than a true damage multiplier). I'm not sure why that matters in the coming meta when debuffs will be additive (with diminishing returns). Free 20% damage buff for all warlocks against tough enemies? Why not?
    Which brings me to my next point - Hellbringer actually gets an indirect buff in party play because the raising of the debuff cap means that powers like Flames of Empowerment are going to be more effective. Before the debuff changes your Flames of Empowerment (and PoP's debuff, while we're at it - the power gives you and your allies %damage AND debuffs enemies by 10%) are actually gimped because they were subject to the 200% debuff cap.

    A side effect the debuff change actually also makes straight %damage buffs (again, like PoP's effect - especially the feated version, which makes it more versatile) more valuable, because the multiplicative element of debuffs is going away. I suspect upcoming buff changes (it's inevitable, they've worked on debuffs and they're tinkering with Bondings which means power sharing is next in line) are only going to make PoP's straight %damage buff even more valuable.

    We'll have to wait and see - someone will have to run numbers to see just how powerful it actually is/will be. It's not as simple as adding percents together and then saying that you are generating extra damage the equivalent of an extra DPSer, you're not a cleric. A more useful comparison would be between the extra damage generated by PoP and your own personal damage, and then comparing the total with the DPS/damage done of a Soulbinder.
    Post edited by tyrtallow on
    You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
  • hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 794 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    tyrtallow said:

    ghem.

    Alright.. U made me smile, wall of words.

    Firstly I do not complain about bad SW desing.. I complain that its terrible outdated. whole SW where build around 3 things.
    DT(DoT based powers) . tyrannical threat and Creeping death. <

    TT reworked to TC. Big lose.
    CD in past did 100% dmg as necrotic power for 8s.(DoT). Now just 60%.
    DT - remain last pillar which hold whole class..

    When Sw where introduced in mod 4, the first paragon path where hellbringer.

    And now to remind you that until mod 10 rework, to proc Creeping Death feat(furry), u had to use necrotic powers.
    It where > wraith shadow, warlock bargain, BoVa, DT, VE, hands of blight and Dark Spiral Aura. Until mod 6 release we had no Hadar grasp and arm of hadar..

    Also in mod 4 Creeping death did 100% additional damage as Necrotic damage over 8 seconds.<

    And necrotic powers had slightly lower dmg than fire baseds ones.
    So SW either had high burst dmg and no creeping death, or Lower power necrotic powers and able to proc CD.
    And most common Dungeon runs combo where in mod 4> BoVA + DT + WB. :)

    Now, lets pick daily powers which u understand wrongly.

    Flames of Phlegethos is desing for single target and with minor/tiny aoe effect. Even broods of hadar have wider effect area..

    Broods of hadar - where ment more as CC element + dps and since it's necrotic to also proc CD, If you notice when you use this daily power it's actually hit 2 times.
    1) initial hit
    2) when spawned brood s hit,, And funny part each broods hit counts separated, all because to proc more CD..

    Gate of hell: in mod 4 it where most powerfull dps power per hit. Each time I linked in chat tis power, (50k+) Cw's complained how SW is Overpowered....

    and now Tyrannical Threat, which u misunderstood.
    The power is not dmg, and it where not desing for that.. This daily power where desing for spreading dmg + proc Creeping death, not to boost up dmg as u think. And in boss fight is not as good as other daily powers..

    However in past, no one spammed Daily powers as we do. In old times Daily power where players ultimate powers, which u used in certain situations. And only some due mount and DC buffs where able use them more offten..

    Also now count in as u say, old times when bosses spawned adds/minions. So to waste AP for just little more dmg toward single target and latter had headpain with adds, it where risky thing.

    When shouts of arogance and selfishness stops, you can hear the whispers of truth and honesty.

    ==================================================

    Status: Vacation.
  • pyrosorcererpyrosorcerer Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 135 Arc User
    tyrtallow said:


    I wonder how much extra damage that power alone generates through buff/debuff bonus damage when your party DPSers/the boss are standing on it.

    @jaime4312#3760 The comment about PoP was sort of response to this. As I would not say the damage is so insane as there would be max one more dps benefitting from the buff in the current meta (3xSuppoer + 1xDps + 1xDps/Support).
  • tyrtallowtyrtallow Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 747 Arc User
    edited September 2017

    tyrtallow said:

    ghem.

    Alright.. U made me smile, wall of words.

    Firstly I do not complain about bad SW desing.. I complain that its terrible outdated. whole SW where build around 3 things.
    DT(DoT based powers) . tyrannical threat and Creeping death. <

    TT reworked to TC. Big lose.
    CD in past did 100% dmg as necrotic power for 8s.(DoT). Now just 60%.
    DT - remain last pillar which hold whole class..

    When Sw where introduced in mod 4, the first paragon path where hellbringer.

    And now to remind you that until mod 10 rework, to proc Creeping Death feat(furry), u had to use necrotic powers.
    It where > wraith shadow, warlock bargain, BoVa, DT, VE, hands of blight and Dark Spiral Aura. Until mod 6 release we had no Hadar grasp and arm of hadar..

    Also in mod 4 Creeping death did 100% additional damage as Necrotic damage over 8 seconds.<

    And necrotic powers had slightly lower dmg than fire baseds ones.
    So SW either had high burst dmg and no creeping death, or Lower power necrotic powers and able to proc CD.
    And most common Dungeon runs combo where in mod 4> BoVA + DT + WB. :)

    Now, lets pick daily powers which u understand wrongly.

    Flames of Phlegethos is desing for single target and with minor/tiny aoe effect. Even broods of hadar have wider effect area..

    Broods of hadar - where ment more as CC element + dps and since it's necrotic to also proc CD, If you notice when you use this daily power it's actually hit 2 times.
    1) initial hit
    2) when spawned brood s hit,, And funny part each broods hit counts separated, all because to proc more CD..

    Gate of hell: in mod 4 it where most powerfull dps power per hit. Each time I linked in chat tis power, (50k+) Cw's complained how SW is Overpowered....

    and now Tyrannical Threat, which u misunderstood.
    The power is not dmg, and it where not desing for that.. This daily power where desing for spreading dmg + proc Creeping death, not to boost up dmg as u think. And in boss fight is not as good as other daily powers..

    However in past, no one spammed Daily powers as we do. In old times Daily power where players ultimate powers, which u used in certain situations. And only some due mount and DC buffs where able use them more offten..

    Also now count in as u say, old times when bosses spawned adds/minions. So to waste AP for just little more dmg toward single target and latter had headpain with adds, it where risky thing.
    Again you are wrong. Why would you think warlocks specialized in DoT? This isn't WoW. In fact, when the warlock was released it was almost like the devs took pains to prevent the Neverwinter warlock from being the same as the WoW warloc.

    What made Neverwinter warlocks unique on release was that it had powers that could hit VERY hard on a low number of mobs, which is part of why Tyrannical Threat was so powerful. Killing Flames, for example, was originally an encounter power that could hit harder than most class dailies. That was also the reason why Gates of Hell was always an underperforming power. Feel free to brag about how your old Gates of Hell did massive damage, but the simply reality was that your other (including non-daily) powers could potentially hit harder.
    This was what made the old warlock distinct from the old CW - CW had blanket AoE DPS and control, warlocks had massive single target/multi-target DPS and more versatility while casting spells (which was lost when the nerf that was supposed to increase CW spellcasting time ended up creating a complete opposite meta).

    Brood of Hadar was never an AoE power, why would you ever think that? The summoned horrors could attack nearby mobs if the main target died but that was it. And Flames of Phlegethos' AoE worked very well for the meta at the time, allowing the warlock to do a little AoE damage. This is important because the original warlock, as I said, specialized in dealing damage to a low number of mobs. It had limited ways of dealing blanket AoE damage the same way as a wizard did - pretty much the only power that did that was Dreadtheft - and yet the old meta was about mobs, mobs and more mobs.

    I'm not sure why Creeping Death matters to you because when warlocks were introduced the power creep was already rampant and even TEMPTATION warlocks could do decent damage in end-game content. Creeping Death was only relevant in that it made Fury do more personal damage than Damnation or Temptation, other than that no one really cared what your paragon path was because all three paths were pretty powerful. In Mod4-5 these boards were even full of "I'm a cleric and I quit!" threads because of Temptation.

    For someone who keeps referencing the past you seem to have a poor recollection of what the old meta was. Tyrannical Threat was the go-to daily for bosses because once upon a time Neverwinter bosses would spawn waves upon waves of mobs/adds. Once upon a time the ADDS were the reason why Neverwinter dungeons were so difficult, specifically the adds that would spawn once the boss reached a certain %HP, NOT the bosses themselves. Tyrannical Threat was designed specifically for this instance, THAT was why it was your go-to daily against bosses, and now that utility is simply gone from the current warlock's arsenal. Since all the other dailies have stayed roughly the same there is simply nothing you can use atm specifically for the new wave of uber-tough bosses/minibosses. We always had the option of throwing the occasional Brood of Hadar at bosses, it's just Brood of Hadar is meant to be a burst damage power with some control. From a long-term DPS standpoint it's a very poor replacement for what the old Tyrannical Threat brought to the table.

    AP builds/setups are not new. You never met the warlocks in mod4-5 who could spam dailies every 15 or so seconds? AP builds in general have been around since mod zero FYI, and the devs would even ninja nerf them from time to time.

    If you're going to discuss Neverwinter's past, learn to read walls of text. It's complicated.
    Post edited by tyrtallow on
    You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
  • hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 794 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    tyrtallow said:


    Again you are wrong. Why would you think warlocks specialized in DoT? This isn't WoW. In fact, when the warlock was released it was almost like the devs took pains to prevent the Neverwinter warlock from being the same as the WoW warloc.

    What made Neverwinter warlocks unique on release was that it had powers that could hit VERY hard on a low number of mobs, which is part of why Tyrannical Threat was so powerful. Killing Flames, for example, was originally an encounter power that could hit harder than most class dailies. That was also the reason why Gates of Hell was always an underperforming power. Feel free to brag about how your old Gates of Hell did massive damage, but the simply reality was that your other (including non-daily) powers could potentially hit harder.
    This was what made the old warlock distinct from the old CW - CW had blanket AoE DPS and control, warlocks had massive single target/multi-target DPS and more versatility while casting spells (which was lost when the nerf that was supposed to increase CW spellcasting time ended up creating a complete opposite meta).

    Brood of Hadar was never an AoE power, why would you ever think that? The summoned horrors could attack nearby mobs if the main target died but that was it. And Flames of Phlegethos' AoE worked very well for the meta at the time, allowing the warlock to do a little AoE damage. This is important because the original warlock, as I said, specialized in dealing damage to a low number of mobs. It had limited ways of dealing blanket AoE damage the same way as a wizard did - pretty much the only power that did that was Dreadtheft - and yet the old meta was about mobs, mobs and more mobs.

    I'm not sure why Creeping Death matters to you because when warlocks were introduced the power creep was already rampant and even TEMPTATION warlocks could do decent damage in end-game content. Creeping Death was only relevant in that it made Fury do more personal damage than Damnation or Temptation, other than that no one really cared what your paragon path was because all three paths were pretty powerful. In Mod4-5 these boards were even full of "I'm a cleric and I quit!" threads because of Temptation.

    For someone who keeps referencing the past you seem to have a poor recollection of what the old meta was. Tyrannical Threat was the go-to daily for bosses because once upon a time Neverwinter bosses would spawn waves upon waves of mobs/adds. Once upon a time the ADDS were the reason why Neverwinter dungeons were so difficult, specifically the adds that would spawn once the boss reached a certain %HP, NOT the bosses themselves. Tyrannical Threat was designed specifically for this instance, THAT was why it was your go-to daily against bosses, and now that utility is simply gone from the current warlock's arsenal. Since all the other dailies have stayed roughly the same there is simply nothing you can use atm specifically for the new wave of uber-tough bosses/minibosses. We always had the option of throwing the occasional Brood of Hadar at bosses, it's just Brood of Hadar is meant to be a burst damage power with some control. From a long-term DPS standpoint it's a very poor replacement for what the old Tyrannical Threat brought to the table.

    AP builds/setups are not new. You never met the warlocks in mod4-5 who could spam dailies every 15 or so seconds? AP builds in general have been around since mod zero FYI, and the devs would even ninja nerf them from time to time.


    If you're going to discuss Neverwinter's past, learn to read walls of text. It's complicated.
    Here advice toward you, when u write wall of text, before clicking post comment read it from A to Z.
    And reason why I write that.. because seems u haven't done that..

    Your line>
    Killing Flames, for example, was originally an encounter power that could hit harder than most class dailies. That was also the reason why Gates of Hell was always an underperforming power.


    You say KF where top power within game.. yes and no.. If u pick KF alone, then nop. It was not far from take of hell, but slightly weaker by stats. However, KF had Murderous Flames feat which extend it's dmg. If there are enemies KF where used as AoE, and if there where no one around MF feat provided 30% more dmg.. It's bit thing..

    But funnies part is you line that it's reason why gate of hell where underperforming. KF was not reason why that players didn't used gate of hell.
    The reason why because it was slow, prior mod 10 rework. gate of hell cast speed where 5s. To land hit with this daily power required either enemies stay in one place for all time, or using kiting technique. But even then, due kinda narrow/small dps area it was easy to miss hit.
    And in pvp where even joke, if someone manage to fail gate of hell should receive award as dodge failure. because it where impossible not to dodge it...
    here is reason 1 why gate of hell was least used power Not because KF did high dmg... Other reason where, why bother and aim to specific area, is with TT you could hit everyone around in same time by using high single target powers..
    Not mentioned untill mod 10 TT got reworked to TC, you could curse 3 targets. and make dps chainlock. Which made TT to hit each other and keep doing hits untill TT time ends..



    Now when u wrote about metas.. My friend, When SW was freshly introduced it where impossible to know what where meta and whats not. There where popular Temptation and furry builds and damnations. Guys/girls picked SW and played with it, some started write guides, some redone them. Some even had Furry build but without Creeping Death feat, and utilized fire/burst powers only. Some focused on necrotic and creeping death..
    There where hybrids and so one.. If u doubt about that,, check out first 10 pages in warlock forum. Check what kind threads and posts where.. Debates which better, which not so good.

    Same where with Paladin when it where introduced. Players experimented by playing with them and looked which one is best build for x purpose.

    Spam Daily every 15s.
    Snail mount + artifact, not mentioned get 4 or even full 5 templocks group and due Soul breaker feat everyone will spam dailies almost nonstop.


    I can also write whole wall of text about Whole SW history if u want.

    ===========================
    Anyways back to topick, PoP slight buff. And if @tyrtallow, still want keep debates.. Well sorry, but this thread is not for it..
    Post edited by hadestemplar#9918 on

    When shouts of arogance and selfishness stops, you can hear the whispers of truth and honesty.

    ==================================================

    Status: Vacation.
  • tyrtallowtyrtallow Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 747 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    There is no debate. You are willfully avoiding the discussion, ignoring relevant points (obviously, because you are now just repeating what I've just said) and then using something like "wall of text" as a stupid excuse.

    You are obviously not here to discuss SW if you can't even be bothered to read other people's posts. This discussion is pointless.
    You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
  • hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 794 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    tyrtallow said:

    There is no debate. You are willfully avoiding the discussion, ignoring relevant points (obviously, because you are now just repeating what I've just said) and then using something like "wall of text" as a stupid excuse.

    You are obviously not here to discuss SW if you can't even be bothered to read other people's posts. This discussion is pointless.

    To discuss with whom? With you? The one who write wall of text, yet that wall total just mess.

    I do not avoid discussion if there are real things.
    I mentioned about mod 4 part. You start telling tale about mod 4 yet in such manner, which u call just mess.
    Pointing that Gate of hell underperformed because of Killing flames encounter. What kind is relevant point?
    Next, SW have most of powers work as DoT form.
    DT, Dot like effect or very similar, and far far far from burst power
    BoVa work more as DoT, because power is enabled and deals dmg in time, not in single blast(burst)
    Warlock bargain, wraith shadow, even harrwostorm are DoT elements. Hellish rebuke DoT.
    Even furry SW's main feat, Creeping death is DoT<.
    Yet u claim that SW desing where ment to not be DoT.. Yeah sure. When majority powers are relaying on DoT mechanic it's obviously that class is DoT focused..

    Brood of hadar aoe? I would say accursed soul is more aoe than BoH daily power.. Due effect/hit area size.
    Flames
    Flames of Phlegethos Aoe.? you cast on 1 monsters, and 2 other monsters maybe get hit. but third one nop. So how much it's aoE? Also to remind that This daily power deal just 25% dmg toward else than prime target, instead dealing AoE hit.
    And next, use logic, wold u spent AP for Flames of Phlegethos or gate of hell or accursed souls when fighting group of monsters...

    Also here is your relevant point. >>

    Tyrannical Threat/Tyrannical Curse was SUPPOSED to be the Warlock's go-to daily against any ultra-tough mobs, which is why it's SUPPOSED to be your go-to power against bosses


    Now lets look how relevant it is..
    Tyrannical curse or in past Tyrannical Threat. What it does for single target huh? 20% dmg increase as regular curse. So hows this daily power where good for ultra-tough monsters?? The answer it where not.
    TT/TC is just too to spread dmg around cursed target thats it. TT/TC itself does 0 dmg at all.

    By dealt dmg flames of Phlegethos deal way more dmg, even accursed soul deal more dmg.

    THe reason why Players used TT/TC most of time, because it was tool. They didn't waste time with aoe powers with lower dps to clear rooms. They used Top dps powers which where single target, and in that time KF, WB and DT where top. So only DT where Aoe in most common power set.

    And strategy where same, TT , curse/mark 3 targets, WB> DT> KF or someone even use WS or Bova. . make TT dmg chainlock and see how dmg numbers fly.

    IF u doubt about that, either ask others SW oldtimers or even check old NWO videos in youtube.


    In boss case, is logical. Dmg wise TT gave no benefits., dmg increase same as curse.. But players kept TT just because to deal with adds/minions.

    SW didn't had to switch from single target powers to aoe in order to fight adds, They use TT. Thats it. Not because TT where strongest daily power, not because it did most dmg. All where just because it worked as tool to spread dmg around.



    And if u still think I am wrong, Ask any other SW old timer, or better, dig out old warlocks threads/posts. read them, or even check old warlock videos in youtube..



    When u finish read old threads/posts. let me know. then we will be able have conversation including relevant points.

    When shouts of arogance and selfishness stops, you can hear the whispers of truth and honesty.

    ==================================================

    Status: Vacation.
  • tyrtallowtyrtallow Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 747 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    Oh yeah? Let's see what you did there.

    You refuse to read my "wall of text", which I carefully and repeatedly edited for structure and proper grammar, and yet fully expect other people to make sense of your broken, garbled English. Don't even bother hiding behind the "English as a second language" excuse, you obviously know how to spell "you" but you seem to like using just "u" in a serious discussion. After all, isn't the important of properly balancing the SW a serious issue? You also seem to love using "..." when you can obviously form proper sentences if you wanted to, and you like to use acronyms and abbreviations and fully expect other people to spend time making sense of them.
    The importance of proper communication is obviously no big deal for you, and yet you expect people to treat you seriously.

    You refuse to give other people the benefit of the doubt while smugly spouting ego-boosting garbage like "U made me smile". Obviously the silent implication of SW powers hitting hard against single target mobs is that Tyrannical Threat is a much more appealing power to use against bosses, for example. The logic there is so elementary school-student simple that it's insulting that you would think I would miss that connection, and then you go on to repeat what I've already implied about Tyrannical Threat in your post. AND THEN you repeat the fact again in the post above!
    You must be so proud of yourself for thinking that everyone else doesn't know that the reason the old Tyrannical Threat was supposed to be used on bosses was because of (GASP!) MOBS and not the damage bonus.
    Thank you for that insult.

    You constantly reference your idealized version of the past but never actually go anywhere with your arguments. You are basically just using this info to make it seem like you know a lot.
    So far I've pointed out the apparent elegant design of warlock powers despite their shortcomings, the relevance of these powers in the current meta, the importance of the new debuff cap and its role on buff/debuff powers/its relevance to HB talents, and other things like the importance of Tyrannical Threat's role in the old meta and how there's nothing to fill that role in the new meta.
    So far you've mostly just said something along the lines of "we should never forget the past". Almost all of your posts are about you defending something you believe is correct and doesn't even add anything to the conversation.
    For example. "Warlocks are DoT." Well no HAMSTER sherlock but DoT's are EVERYWHERE in this game. Hell, in mod2 the f-ing GREAT WEAPON FIGHTER CLASS relied on a broken DoT feat to deal massive DoT damage. Why the hell would you think the warlock is supposed to be a unique DoT class?
    It doesn't help that you seem to like misdirecting other people by saying things like "people didn't know what the meta was" when you've already said that warlocks were doing well in the old meta or that people knew how to use Tyrannical Threat. I fail to see the logical connection or how that is relevant to this discussion.
    Interestingly you think that your close to zero amount of constructive argument is supposed to constitute one side of a proper debate.

    Wanna know the funniest part of your posts, from where I'm standing? Your posts are filled with dozens of little inconsistent details.
    For example, warlock AP gain in the old meta was nothing as complicated as using Soul Breaker or the snail (you know mounts didn't have active powers then, right?) or even the DC sigil. This tells me that I'm probably not even talking to a person who actually remembers the old meta or who has a solid grasp of basic warlock skills. At the time the simplest way to gain AP as a warlock was to spam Harrowstorm, which gives 5% AP per target hit, and for AP builds you combined that with Black Ice Enchantments (which pre-nerf generated AP like crazy and were EVERYWHERE back in mod3+ when people ran KR like mad), artifact cloaks (the AP gain ability came a bit later), other old powers that generated AP quickly (Warlock's Bargain, Killing Flames on last hit), the recovery statistic and the occasional potion of power. These methods were relatively cheap, didn't require elaborate setups like running with multiple temptation warlocks and were potentially available to ALL warlocks.

    You were the one who said that Brood of Hadar had an AoE BTW. If you didn't then blame it on your unwillingness to write in proper sentences.

    Flames of Phlegethos is desing for single target and with minor/tiny aoe effect. Even broods of hadar have wider effect area..

    And you honestly think my wall of text is a mess? Try reading your own posts. Like I said, this discussion is pointless.
    Post edited by tyrtallow on
    You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
  • hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 794 Arc User
    edited September 2017


    When shouts of arogance and selfishness stops, you can hear the whispers of truth and honesty.

    ==================================================

    Status: Vacation.
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