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Mercenary Boons: Stronghold Equivalent Boons for Individuals

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  • pteriaspterias Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 661 Arc User
    edited August 2017
    oria1 said:

    Now to the practical part.
    As you word this you have the case that you DONATE to the guild, the guild will get to BUILD the boons you so like and ALSO get to have your personal ones... So more power creep? That's what this game needs? and all this just because you "might" leave a guild. You might, others wont. don't examine things from a personal only, point of view.
    Also as others said, you create or extend the same problem.

    Before : Me with guild boons +8000 power and you nothing (hardly the truth, if you are even in a mid lvl guild you will get 3k-5k or more)
    After : Me with guild boons +8000 power AND merc +8000 power and you merc 8000 power..
    Unless you are proposing that you can use ONE or the OTHER... in which case tell me please.
    Why would any guild, build boons in the first place? We will all just build one merc and call it the day. I hope you see where the flaw in all this is. Also please provide a solution for the guilds that have the boons, what will they do with them? the cost and time of building the boons?

    This would not add to power creep for people who already have boons, it would just add versatility. In the Power example, you wouldn't have 8,000 + 8,000 = 16,000, it would still only total 8,000 because they don't stack. In that case, it would be useless. However, you would be able to build up a different boon like Crit Severity (which probably no guild has) or HP if your guild never built a Wizard's Tower, for example. Guilds have had to make hard choices between Masterworks or certain other structures, this would help members fill that gap.

    While making merc boons account based may seem overpowered, it's actually a limiting factor in that you would only have access to one of each type of boon for the whole account. If you want two different offensive boons on two different characters, the only way you could get that would be from a guild. As for what you already have, well, you already have them. It saves everyone in the guild from messing with Merc boons altogether unless they just want more variety, or something for out-of-guild alts. Most people in your guild would probably never even bother with them. Also, don't forget that to get them, people would have to donate to a guild anyway, so why not build?
    armadeonx said:

    As such, the thing to consider is if players can achieve these boons/benefits without focusing on guild progression or group effort, what are the social and economic implications for the game as a whole?

    I see the social structures changing by allowing people to stay in small guilds instead of feeling coerced into abandoning them for boon-ier pastures. I see people not being strongarmed into guilds that don't want to be there. I see people not having to pick guilds based on whether they have an Explorer's Guild or not. On the other hand though, I see GH20s having to provide a better quality of life for members, which many of course already do very well. The ones that are more "bow down and kiss the ring for your boons" types however would find themselves playing alone, and in my opinion, they should.
    gripnir78 said:

    @pterias all your posts in short version - you want to get what other players earned, but you dont want to
    pay a price for it - you want a shortcut to that. .

    I've already stated I don't want cheap, I just want a different, still hard avenue.
    gripnir78 said:

    Belive me or not, but guilds are worth joining for many reasons, and those SH boons (and lot of team work behind them) are not the most important.

    I do believe you. I actually believe this so much, that I don't see this causing the great, substantial harm many people seem to be afraid of. The only people you'd lose are people who don't care about those other things anyway, and at that rate, how much would you really be losing?
    ravenskya said:

    5) if you want a set of boons for someone who has never been in a guild, then my recommendation would be this: You take the amount of time that the character has been solo (guildless) and in combat. Once that character has been in combat without a guild for 300 hours of combat time then they get a rank 1 solo boon. 600 MORE hours later they can level that boon up. All the way up, one at a time to the same level as the stronghold boons. As soon as they join a guild - boom, all of that is gone because now they have access to stronghold boons. If they leave the guild they start back at 0 on the "merc" boons. Sure there are ways to take advantage of that (leaving a character somewhere in combat) but I mean, you don't want those people in your guild anyway. You want merc boons - you need to suffer JUST AS MUCH if not MORE than we did to get our stronghold boons. If you disagree that the suffering should be mandatory for merc boons then you are asking for a handout.

    As I've said, I'm fine with suffering, and this idea is interesting, but it resetting acts a discouragement to ever joining a guild, ever ever. Of course, 16,500 hours of time in combat (which is what this would work out to), is almost 2 solid years of 24/7/365 time actually IN combat. I doubt anyone has even been logged in that many hours since launch, much less in combat and even much less time spent working to a SH.
  • pteriaspterias Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 661 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    In light of the "BONDING-OCALYPSE 2017" that was narrowly averted today in favor of "just" cutting bonding effectiveness in half, it brings up an interesting side argument to this topic.

    The idea of nerfing SH boons has ALSO been brought up recently because they are so good and create a large gap between players. So instead of asking whether people who play differently should be allowed to catch up, maybe you should be asking whether you would rather let them catch up or just get your own boons that you've worked for nerfed instead. In the end, those may be the only choices you have...

    ---

    @defiantone99, I missed your post before, I think your idea of "Boon Rental" is interesting too.
  • ravenskyaravenskya Member Posts: 1,891 Arc User
    pterias said:


    ravenskya said:

    5) if you want a set of boons for someone who has never been in a guild, then my recommendation would be this: You take the amount of time that the character has been solo (guildless) and in combat. Once that character has been in combat without a guild for 300 hours of combat time then they get a rank 1 solo boon. 600 MORE hours later they can level that boon up. All the way up, one at a time to the same level as the stronghold boons. As soon as they join a guild - boom, all of that is gone because now they have access to stronghold boons. If they leave the guild they start back at 0 on the "merc" boons. Sure there are ways to take advantage of that (leaving a character somewhere in combat) but I mean, you don't want those people in your guild anyway. You want merc boons - you need to suffer JUST AS MUCH if not MORE than we did to get our stronghold boons. If you disagree that the suffering should be mandatory for merc boons then you are asking for a handout.

    As I've said, I'm fine with suffering, and this idea is interesting, but it resetting acts a discouragement to ever joining a guild, ever ever. Of course, 16,500 hours of time in combat (which is what this would work out to), is almost 2 solid years of 24/7/365 time actually IN combat. I doubt anyone has even been logged in that many hours since launch, much less in combat and even much less time spent working to a SH.
    The 300 was an arbitrary number just meant to be "a lot"

    I gauge by my overloads - most last 2 hours.

    How long does it take the average guild of say 10 actives to get to their first level boon? Then figure out the approx % of that time a person would have been in combat and go with that.

    I say in combat so you dont have someone create a character, come back a year later and have tons of boons for not playing. Leaving a character just logged in should't count either - because we actually had to play to get to where we are. Many of us - working together. We had to run influence which didn't benefit our characters at all - only the guild. That could have been one more dungeon run for AD or salvage.

    I don't have an issue with people having a way to get other boons - but
    1) they should require equivalent work if not more
    2) they should not stack with stronghold boons
    Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold"
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  • hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,184 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    pterias said:

    In light of the "BONDING-OCALYPSE 2017" that was narrowly averted today in favor of "just" cutting bonding effectiveness in half, it brings up an interesting side argument to this topic.

    The idea of nerfing SH boons has ALSO been brought up recently because they are so good and create a large gap between players. So instead of asking whether people who play differently should be allowed to catch up, maybe you should be asking whether you would rather let them catch up or just get your own boons that you've worked for nerfed instead. In the end, those may be the only choices you have...

    I like this epic line> Bonding-Ocalypse.. Could not laugh for minutes.

    Do u afraid of challenge, and that you will had put efforts in fight, rather imitating... And this question is dedicated for all who cry due Bonding Runes nerfings.

    I know that lot of players spend tons of time and money till obtained x3 bondings r12. But it's one of reason of power creeping within game.
    ========================================================================
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  • pteriaspterias Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 661 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    I was talking to someone who suggested a game-wide guild for solo players to donate into (in conjunction with my idea) that could give varied, server wide benefits similar to the Tiamat Hoard bonuses. I'm not sure on specifics, but I thought it was intriguing. I've seen the idea of a game-wide guild in the past, but never really understood what it would do before.

    ---
    ravenskya said:

    I don't have an issue with people having a way to get other boons - but
    1) they should require equivalent work if not more
    2) they should not stack with stronghold boons

    That's all I'm really asking for, and no they shouldn't stack.

    I like this epic line> Bonding-Ocalypse.. Could not laugh for minutes.

    Do u afraid of challenge, and that you will had put efforts in fight, rather imitating... And this question is dedicated for all who cry due Bonding Runes nerfings.

    I know that lot of players spend tons of time and money till obtained x3 bondings r12. But it's one of reason of power creeping within game.

    I have no problem with the nerf, I even suggested something similar to what they've settled on a week or two ago. "Bonding-ocalypse" was a jab at how people were reacting. You and I are chuckling at the same people. The problem was that they were originally going to nerf them into non-existence, but then pulled back. I think that was probably the plan all along to help the real nerf pill go down easier, which it has.
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  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 7,152 Arc User
    Most of the guilds formed are storage guilds.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • pteriaspterias Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 661 Arc User

    Anything that undermines the guild system is not good for the long term viability of the game. Good guilds are the only thing really keeping the player base intact. When bad things happen to the game like mod 10 or really bad things happen like mod 6 the only thing that keeps much of the player base logging back in are the social relationships they have made with their guildies.

    Well, to illustrate what a space alien I am, I rather enjoyed both mods 6 and 10. ;) I weathered the level cap increase, the Leadership AD nerf, Coalgate, Keygate, and Relic gear with little more than a shrug. The only time in 4 years that I've considered quitting was when mod 7 strongholds hit. I didn't even log in for a couple weeks after. I haven't put a dime in this game since, and won't unless this changes.

    I ultimately came to terms with the idea that I'd be obsoleted out of the game eventually and have to move on, mainly in PVP, but PVP went into the gutter anyway. Fortunately, things went smoother than I'd feared and I'm still here. Adding SH boons into IL has made it more relevant again when getting into higher level content with so much missing IL, especially across multiple characters.
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 7,152 Arc User
    Then join a guild.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 7,152 Arc User
    "I want the benefits of membership without being a member."

    Followed by: "Any guild that would have me as a member isn't worth joining."
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User
    You do know you can join a zero-demand guild with boons then turn off guild & alliance chat if you want that truly 'alone' feeling.

    The only indication you're even in the guild is the name above your head.
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  • pteriaspterias Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 661 Arc User
    edited September 2017
    No problem Micky, I struggle to fluff my (sometimes impolite) opinions too. We've traded thoughts before and we'll likely never see eye to eye, but that's ok (I'd say that's the point). I can't vouch for other people, but I can say I don't think I'm better than anyone else (and vice versa), and I have never cried to nerf SH boons. Actually, every time I've chimed in on it, I've been opposed to nerfing them. Also, I wasn't trying to "blackmail" anyone. I mean, come on, look at what they're doing to bondings. Look at what they always do. When they think something is too good or imbalanced, they nerf it into the ground. It's probably coming. Jumpingmorks's theory over in General Discussion (raise cap, then make you work to get boons "back up to" say 6000) seems in line with how they roll. That'd be mean as HAMSTER, but you know they're capable of it.

    But, you guys won't have to hear this from me much more. This is my last huzzah. This idea was my last attempt at thinking of a win-win system for everyone (apparently I can't even throw mass donations at you people if there's any kind of safety net attached to it), but I'm tired of getting into one-sided hamster kicking contests over it. I've talked to people who agree with me, but they don't feel like subjecting themselves to the flak. Maybe you're right. Maybe I'm crazy. Maybe I shouldn't be playing an MMO. I'm mostly just here for the D&D anyway. That, and thinking the game this was for the first couple years was pretty killer.

    ---

    If you have not seen it yet in the preview shard forum it looks like the Devs are getting ready to HAMSTER the bed agian in true Mod 6 fashion with queving and Rough AD changes to dungeons.

    Yeah, I've been following it. Sounds less than good.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,594 Arc User
    pterias said:

    No problem Micky, I struggle to fluff my (sometimes impolite) opinions too. We've traded thoughts before and we'll likely never see eye to eye, but that's ok (I'd say that's the point). I can't vouch for other people, but I can say I don't think I'm better than anyone else (and vice versa), and I have never cried to nerf SH boons. Actually, every time I've chimed in on it, I've been opposed to nerfing them. Also, I wasn't trying to "blackmail" anyone. I mean, come on, look at what they're doing to bondings. Look at what they always do. When they think something is too good or imbalanced, they nerf it into the ground. It's probably coming. Jumpingmorks's theory over in General Discussion (raise cap, then make you work to get boons "back up to" say 6000) seems in line with how they roll. That'd be mean as HAMSTER, but you know they're capable of it.

    Yes, I wasn't referring to you in the "others".
    I've meant other people that are not you but with anti-sh-boon posts.
    pterias said:


    But, you guys won't have to hear this from me much more. This is my last huzzah. This idea was my last attempt at thinking of a win-win system for everyone (apparently I can't even throw mass donations at you people if there's any kind of safety net attached to it), but I'm tired of getting into one-sided hamster kicking contests over it. I've talked to people who agree with me, but they don't feel like subjecting themselves to the flak. Maybe you're right. Maybe I'm crazy. Maybe I shouldn't be playing an MMO. I'm mostly just here for the D&D anyway. That, and thinking the game this was for the first couple years was pretty killer.

    Or you can instead of considering it as a flak, actually consider the points made. There is nothing to safety net, when you are not required of anything. But I think I've tried to argue that point already. At the end, your loss.
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