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Forums > Home› Neverwinter Discussion › General Discussion (PC)

Plague Fire Mod 12

ahnrok2357ahnrok2357 Member Posts: 12 Arc User
in General Discussion (PC)
I was told in Alliance chat during a trade that the plague fire enchantment was going to recieve a nerf with this coming Mod. Is this true? I can't find anything to date on the forums that validates this and would like some clarity. Please and thanks in advance.

Answers

  • earlgreybeardearlgreybeard Member Posts: 407 Arc User
    It's. being. Nerfed?
    I was sort of hoping they might fix it.. it is only partially working as it is.
    https://forum.arcgames.com/neverwinter/discussion/comment/12959058#Comment_12959058

    https://forum.arcgames.com/neverwinter/discussion/comment/12956908#Comment_12956908


    I sort of wonder with weapon and armor enchants is a case of , bad luck... you rolled a dud enchantment like you rolled a totally useless ring from a dungeon




    Guild Leader Den of the Misfits
  • reg1981reg1981 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,435 Arc User
    edited July 2017
    It's not the enchants getting nerf'd it's buffs in general... Diminishing returns after a certian point. You'd need a number cruncher to explain it because I can't, but it's buffs in general...

    I've not seen anything specifically on the P. Fire.

    That said, same thing with the debuff companions like the sell sword. My DPS toons will move away from those companions and my support classes will continue to run them.
  • dupeksdupeks Member Posts: 1,789 Arc User
    edited July 2017
    reg1981 said:

    It's not the enchants getting nerf'd it's buffs in general... Diminishing returns after a certian point. You'd need a number cruncher to explain it because I can't, but it's buffs in general...

    I've not seen anything specifically on the P. Fire.

    That said, same thing with the debuff companions like the sell sword. My DPS toons will move away from those companions and my support classes will continue to run them.

    2 quick clarifications...

    It's debuffs that are getting changed, not buffs. Buffs still work as before (all multiplicative with each other).

    2nd, PF and sellswords (as well as a small handful of other mechanics) are "uncapped debuffs" on live. They are treated as a separate multiplicative element in the damage formula, meaning that they are disproportionately valuable compared to the majority of "capped" debuffs on live.

    But the special nature of "uncapped debuffs" is going away, everything is being rolled into a single additive debuff bucket with a higher cap, but additional diminishing returns applied on top.

    Below please find an in-depth explanation. The discussion was about Sellsword, but PF uses the same uncapped debuff mehcanic (so a lot of the same considerations apply):
    dupeks said:

    Here's a summary of the proposed changes:

    What is intended in the new system is a +300% (quadruple base damage) cap, and everything should live under this cap.

    Rgutscheradev has been using +% numbers rather than ACT effectiveness % when describing the changes, which is a little different than some forum-dwellers are used to. So know that the +300% above is the same as 400% effectiveness in ACT. Using this +% terminology, the old debuff cap was +100% (200% effectiveness).

    But you'll never reach the new +300% cap, because it's really an asymptote with a steeply diminishing return curve to approach it. Janne posted an interactive link with the curve:

    https://www.desmos.com/calculator/k6dbonvo5y

    Borrowing that equation, I sampled some points so that you can get an idea of how steep the diminishing returns are:

    At +50% additive debuff -> +47.4% diminished actual
    At +100% additive debuff -> +92.5% diminished actual
    At +150% additive debuff ->+129.5% diminished actual
    At +200% additive debuff -> +158.3% diminished actual
    At +250% additive debuff -> +180.4% diminished actual
    At +300% additive debuff -> +197.7% diminished actual
    At +350% additive debuff -> +211.3% diminished actual
    At +400% additive debuff -> +222.3% diminished actual
    At +450% additive debuff -> +231.2% diminished actual
    At +500% additive debuff -> +238.5% diminished actual

    So generally speaking:
    Everything above ~+200% is diminished by more than half (x0.5 effective)
    Everything above ~+300% is diminished by more than two thirds (x0.33 effective).
    Everything above ~+400% is diminished by more than four fifths (x0.2 effective)
    And it continues to become more punitive as you go higher.

    So whereas now a Sellsword provides 10% or nearly 10% if you have a handful of uncapped buffs, in the new system it'll just be an additive 10% that gets rolled in under the cap, and has diminishing returns applied.

    So if you already have a lot of other debuffs, the Sellsword's contribution is way lower than it used to be. For example if it's taking you from +200% to +210% additive, then it will take you from 156.1% ->161% which is an incremental damage increase of (1.61 - 1.561)/1.561 = 0.03139013452 ~ 3.14% damage increase

    dupeks said:

    Let's take a look at the situation on live right now:

    1. Buffs are multiplicative (+4% buff is always +4% and always gives you *1.04 damage)
    2. Capped debuffs are additive with each other, and capped to +100% or 200% effectiveness. Also, since they are additive, the more you have, the less each +1% is worth. (put another way, going from +0% debuffs to +5% debuffs is 5% damage increase (1.05-1)/1=0.05, but going from +95% to +100% is only (2-1.95)/1.95=0.02564102564~2.56% damage increase)
    3. Uncapped debuffs are additive with each other, and multiplicative with capped buffs. So the first 10% you get is actually 10% damage bonus. The next 10% (say 2nd sellsword) is worth (1.2 - 1.1)/1.1 = 0.0909090909~9.01% damage increase. So since they are additive, the more you have, the less each +1% is worth. But since this bucket contains very few uncapped debuffs, it's often that you're getting close to the full amount.
    OK so what is happening on preview?
    1. Buffs are multiplicative. Nothing has changed with buffs. (+4% buff is always +4% damage increase)
    2. All debuffs are now rolled into a single additive bucket. There is no more capped vs. uncapped. Furthermore, there is additional diminishing returns applied that reduce the impact of debuffs even more than the natural additive nature of the math. Additive components have natural diminishing returns (like you saw above) but there is an additional diminishing formula being applied in the new system that further reduces debuffs the more you have.
    So what's that mean? It means that anything that used to be an uncapped debuff isn't going to be super special anymore. Uncapped debuffs used to be in a very small pool of debuffs that were almost always worth their full tooltip debuff value because not a lot of things were counting as uncapped. Since all debuffs are going into a big pool now, the additive nature of the math makes you get less damage with each +1% debuff. In addition, the diminishing returns penalty further reduces that.

    So in an end-game party, a sellsword used to provide say +5% to +10% additional damage increase, depending on how many uncapped debuffs you had.

    In the new system, same end-game party, I would expect a sellsword to provide <4% damage increase (potentially way less than 4%, maybe closer to 2%), depending on how many total debuffs you have.

    To clarify: I am not saying the Sellsword debuff isn't going to work at all. I am saying that it won't be "too good to pass up" anymore, especially for main damage dealer classes who might benefit the party most by slotting a roster full of archons and other damage buff pets. </p>
  • earlgreybeardearlgreybeard Member Posts: 407 Arc User
    well if it's an across the board type of adjustment for debuffs , so be it .. I hope they can at least try and sort this bug that happens when 2 people are using plaguefire ench of different ranks at the same time. That appears to kill the debuff completely
    Guild Leader Den of the Misfits
  • niadanniadan Member Posts: 1,635 Arc User
    edited July 2017
    @dupeks
    Stupid question...I know...but...

    Does Arp get added into the debuff pool (for the individual) or is it still separate? I am assuming it is still calculated separately, thus the diminishing returns applied to debuffs have no impact on Arp that is needed.
    Post edited by niadan on
  • dupeksdupeks Member Posts: 1,789 Arc User
    earlgreybeard said:

    well if it's an across the board type of adjustment for debuffs , so be it .. I hope they can at least try and sort this bug that happens when 2 people are using plaguefire ench of different ranks at the same time. That appears to kill the debuff completely

    They acknowledged the stacking bug, but didn't have time to repair it for mod 12.
    niadan said:

    @dupeks

    Stupid question...I know...but...



    Does Arp get added into the debuff pool (for the individual) or is it still separate? I am assuming it is still calculated separately, thus the diminishing returns applied to debuffs have no impact on Arp that is needed.

    I'm not actually sure how the math works out if you are not penetrating all of the enemy's DR... it used to be that debuffs could "make up" for lack of Resistance Ignored.

    (RI - DR + any other capped debuffs) * (uncapped debuffs)

    Is it going to be (RI - DR) * (diminished debuffs)? or (RI - DR + additive debuffs)* dimishing scalar? not sure...

    It shouldn't make a difference assuming you are penetrating all of the DR, but if you're not, the behavior might be different.

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