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New Incoming Piercing Damage Changes and Trickster Rogues

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  • gbrlpf22gbrlpf22 Member Posts: 26 Arc User

    I think you are all using the term 'bug' incorrectly. Its working exactly how it is supposed to. Is it getting the benefit of buffs twice? Technically, yes; but that isnt a bug, its just how SoD works. SoD is unique in its functionality, and therefore has a now unique interaction with debuffs. That isn't a bug.

    This interaction will not make TR's suddenly do a bajillion times more damage than the other DPS classes.

    Over the course of a bossfight a well played TR can expect to see about 30-35% of their overall damage come from SoD. With the change in M12 I expect that to increase to maybe 40-50% under ideal conditions and flawless execution. Over the course of an entire dungeon that amount is diminished significantly. Whereas before, SoD might contribute 20% of overall damage done by a TR, with the new changes I would guess-timate that may rise to the 30-35% range.

    I'd like to point out once again that it isnt a 'bug' in the sense of the word as I know it. A bug is something that is functioning incorrectly, doing something it isnt supposed to be doing. This interaction between Shadow of Demise and debuffs on a target is working EXACTLY as intended. What does it matter that SoD is piercing? A well-made character ignores 100% of all enemies Damage Resistance anyway and non-player-characters don't have a deflect stat, so they can't deflect. We're basically getting a 'fix' to a power that never took advantage of debuffs. (By the way, this is why piercing damage has always been so godaweful in PVE.)

    I'd also like to mention that these kinds of numbers are already in the game. GF's and GWF's can already very easily get hits in the 30-40 million range. I could go into CN right now on the test server with a couple of the other officers in THC and not even get a chance to proc the newly buffed Shadow of Demise on any of the bosses because the GF in the party would one-hit the bosses from 50% to dead.. or the GWF would do the same with IBS.

    ...and if your worried about pvp. Don't. PVP in this game crawled under the porch and died a pitiful death a long time ago.

    Oh man you explained everything! Its working exactly how they said on patch notes: "Piercing damage will now be able to benefit from damage vulnerability debuffs on the target (such as the Lantern of Revelation debuff). The net effect should be to make these powers less overwhelming (but still potentially very strong) in PvP, and much more useful in PvE.", so its not a BUG

    Most of people are raging because Shocking Execution dmg in pvp but it will stay the same or even worse since piercing dmg will not penetrate tenacity anymore! So dont Worry about that!!



    Mara Canà - Trickster Rogue 15k - Strawberry Yakuza
  • archangelzorak01archangelzorak01 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 324 Arc User
    We could always just end the discussion right now and ask the devs to make the damage from Shadow of Demise be normal damage. Cuz guess what!? It would benefit from debuffs! It wouldnt be able to be deflected, cuz mobs... and it would ignore an enemies armor, cuz Resistance Ignored. The fact that its piercing damage (up until M12) did nothing but make it 'less than' all other sources of damage in the game(in PVE). As far as PVP goes see my comment above (and also the dev's took that into consideration by making piercing no longer ignore tenacity)

    This change gives piercing damage equal representation in PVE compared to normal damage sources.
    Neverwinter Module 6: The only MMO expansion in the history of MMO's to remove more content than it added.


  • gbrlpf22gbrlpf22 Member Posts: 26 Arc User

    TR is just fine in PVE without bugs. Should they get a little buff when they get a rework? Sure. Should they get a game-breaking bug now? NO.

    Wheres the game breaking change? Like Ayasuke said these number r alrdy on the game, GWFs and GFs can alrdy reach this 30M ~ 40M range on IBS and 3x20M Grifons Wrath, in a time interval much less than 6 seconds. and If its a bug show us the difference between the patch notes and whats hapening ingame...

    Also... did u watched sayajin videos? a TR called "I Solo SP"(idk if hes BIS or almost BIS but if he was invited for a speed run its probly YES) was out DPSed by him as DPS GF and he made several mistakes in the last boss.. Next time he invited WickedDuck as GWF and he done more than 150M with the same setup... Make your own conclusions about it.

    Mara Canà - Trickster Rogue 15k - Strawberry Yakuza
  • jaime4312#3760 jaime4312 Member Posts: 844 Arc User
    @gbrlpf22 @dupeks

    How it is supposed to work=

    "Piercing damage will now be able to benefit from damage vulnerability debuffs..."

    How it is actually working=

    "Piercing damage will now be able to benefit twice from damage vulnerability debuffs..."

    Benefitting twice from debuffs= not WAI, bug, glitch or however you want to call it doesn't matter, what does though is that SoD is benefitting from debuffs more than it should and that needs to be addressed asap.

    As per Sharp's testing that glitch does affect Creeping Death too and as someone who likes SW I'm totally against seeing my dps increased because of an uninteded interaction between fury captone and debuffs, it is just not right, things like that are the reason SW is in the miserable state it is now and I don't want to see the class finally finished off by more nerfs which have precisely been fixes to stuff not WAI.

    Do TR and SW need a serious and well thought rework? yes of course! Should those classes get a dps boost by double benefitting from debuffs? Absolutely no! that will only inevitably get them nerfed and most likely leave them in a worse state than they currently are at.
  • dupeksdupeks Member Posts: 1,789 Arc User
    edited July 2017

    @gbrlpf22 @dupeks

    How it is supposed to work=

    "Piercing damage will now be able to benefit from damage vulnerability debuffs..."

    How it is actually working=

    "Piercing damage will now be able to benefit twice from damage vulnerability debuffs..."

    Benefitting twice from debuffs= not WAI, bug, glitch or however you want to call it doesn't matter, what does though is that SoD is benefitting from debuffs more than it should and that needs to be addressed asap.

    As per Sharp's testing that glitch does affect Creeping Death too and as someone who likes SW I'm totally against seeing my dps increased because of an uninteded interaction between fury captone and debuffs, it is just not right, things like that are the reason SW is in the miserable state it is now and I don't want to see the class finally finished off by more nerfs which have precisely been fixes to stuff not WAI.

    Do TR and SW need a serious and well thought rework? yes of course! Should those classes get a dps boost by double benefitting from debuffs? Absolutely no! that will only inevitably get them nerfed and most likely leave them in a worse state than they currently are at.

    It's benefiting twice because the the "base damage" for the piercing hit is calculated from damage that had debuffs applied.

    There are a number of powers that deal an additional hit based on how much damage has already been done to a target etc. All of those powers "double-dip" on debuffs now.

    If you're advocating for creating a new mechanic / class of powers that do not benefit from debuffs on their final hit because it's understood that their effect is already based on damage which took debuffs into account, I'm all for it.

    But saying that "SoD is bugged" right now and especially saying "piercing damage is double-dipping on debuffs" are incredibly misleading and in my opinion can only serve to make this whole discussion difficult to understand.

    Piercing damage has nothing to do with it. Any power which is based on damage already dealt behaves this way. I encourage everyone to please be precise with their words instead of screaming bug at everything they don't like (and don't fully understand)
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,594 Arc User
    edited July 2017

    You know I am

    dupeks said:

    @gbrlpf22 @dupeks

    How it is supposed to work=

    "Piercing damage will now be able to benefit from damage vulnerability debuffs..."

    How it is actually working=

    "Piercing damage will now be able to benefit twice from damage vulnerability debuffs..."

    Benefitting twice from debuffs= not WAI, bug, glitch or however you want to call it doesn't matter, what does though is that SoD is benefitting from debuffs more than it should and that needs to be addressed asap.

    As per Sharp's testing that glitch does affect Creeping Death too and as someone who likes SW I'm totally against seeing my dps increased because of an uninteded interaction between fury captone and debuffs, it is just not right, things like that are the reason SW is in the miserable state it is now and I don't want to see the class finally finished off by more nerfs which have precisely been fixes to stuff not WAI.

    Do TR and SW need a serious and well thought rework? yes of course! Should those classes get a dps boost by double benefitting from debuffs? Absolutely no! that will only inevitably get them nerfed and most likely leave them in a worse state than they currently are at.

    It's benefiting twice because the the "base damage" for the piercing hit is calculated from damage that had debuffs applied.

    There are a number of powers that deal an additional hit based on how much damage has already been done to a target etc. All of those powers "double-dip" on debuffs now.

    If you're advocating for creating a new mechanic / class of powers that do not benefit from debuffs on their final hit because it's understood that their effect is already based on damage which took debuffs into account, I'm all for it.

    But saying that "SoD is bugged" right now is incredibly misleading and in my opinion can only serve to make this whole discussion difficult to understand. Piercing damage has nothing to do with it. Any power which is based on damage already dealt behaves this way.
    Dude, watch the video. That is not WAI. It is almost just like MF used to be when it was bugged. A proc is not supposed to hit for 26 mill non-crit. Now, if the encounter hit for that much, fine. But, it is a proc. I would love if I had 26 mill Steel Blitz procs, I know SWs would love 26 mill MF procs, on and on. You are inventing justifications here. First it was a bug, but you need it. Now, it is not a bug, it is WAI. Just wow.
    As an encounter it's fine?

    But a proc that sums all encounters and damage over 6 seconds it's not fine..... So you want to tell me that the highest Proc in the game for a TR is not working correctly for 7 mods ? Because right now on live a SoD proc will be higher than any TR encounter on a real boss.

    What crit has anything to do with it? You want SoD to crit independently and have it multiplied by crit severity ? Sure, no problem, but perhaps you should check how SoD works....

    People see a video and forgot that it's CN, not the new dungeon, it's bloody CN, the one that before the change could be killed before SoD procs. (now didn't try with full buff party)
    This is why 5 practically BiS people shouldn't post videos of a low level farm dungeon...
  • archangelzorak01archangelzorak01 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 324 Arc User
    I have run through the new content in testing enough to know that this is far from 'game-breaking'. I've experienced a number of hours progressing through the campaign in single player content wherein there is almost no noticeable change whatsoever. I have also run through the new dungeon a few times. My damage felt better than on live, specifically single target damage. I got a couple of new personal records for SoD as well as for Lifesteal proc's, which pleased me. Clearing trash in the dungeon felt about the same (as it should, considering SoD has no significant impact on trash mobs). All in all it felt good, not too strong but still noticeable.

    I was not able to directly compare my damage output to another pure DPS class. The group I ran the dungeon with was a buff group: OP Tank, Support GF, 2 complimentary DC's and Myself. The GF in question was LILITH however, and for those of you that know him know that (even though he was purposely playing more of a support role) he ain't no slouch and is more than capable of dealing significant damage. What I can report is that that same group ran the dungeon with an excellent GWF in my stead a couple times and the overall damage dealt by the GWF was still considerably more than I did on my TR. (1.9billion vs. 1.4billion). This is representative of what I would expect, considering a GWF is a selfish creature and offers nothing to the party whereas us upstanding TR's provide a modicum of crowd control to make up for our lower damage potential. (that was sarcasm, so sit back down and put away your flamethrower, ya bunch o' overzealous bastids)

    It is worth noting that the runs were mostly flawless and could be considered excellent mirrors of each other, as neither the GWF nor myself died and therefore retained the dmg buff from the first boss all the way to the end of the dungeon. Time was also comparable as both runs were within a 30-33 minute time-frame.

    Once this goes live (or possibly before then if I can wrangle and hog-tie the right people on test) I will endeavor to form up a group for a more direct comparison. As with most things of this nature, the only way to see how it truly performs is to release it into the wild and see how it fares. If it goes mad with power and starts to kill too many townspeople we can re-capture it and reign it in, at which time I'll be the first to admit if something is over-performing.

    So for those of you that saw a video and got triggered because it has big numbers.. try to relax.
    Neverwinter Module 6: The only MMO expansion in the history of MMO's to remove more content than it added.


  • dupeksdupeks Member Posts: 1,789 Arc User

    Dude, watch the video. That is not WAI. It is almost just like MF used to be when it was bugged. A proc is not supposed to hit for 26 mill non-crit. Now, if the encounter hit for that much, fine. But, it is a proc. I would love if I had 26 mill Steel Blitz procs, I know SWs would love 26 mill MF procs, on and on. You are inventing justifications here. First it was a bug, but you need it. Now, it is not a bug, it is WAI. Just wow.

    A couple things
    1. Just because something is overpowered doesn't mean it's a bug. Calling it one isn't helping anything
    2. You just compared class features with capstones, that doesn't make any sense
    3. I'm not advocating for keeping SoD "overpowered" I'm just advocating for discussing it using accurate terms
    4. Making one-off adjustments to powers that defy usual mechanics is a dangerous and slippery slope. I sincerely believe it's the wrong way to go about adjusting this power and hope the devs do too
    5. Never once said it was a bug. I'm careful with my words.
  • tom#6998 tom Member Posts: 952 Arc User
    Defiantone do u <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> realise that sod is a capstone? Why shouldnt a capstone be allowed to deal that much dmg? I bet trs would love to trade sod for destroyergwf capstone wich is increasing all your dmg by <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> 50%.

    But besides that the biggest problem i see with new sod is that this change does basicly nothing for low-midtier TRs while boosting TR in BIS groups ALOT and thats kinda unfair imo
  • gbrlpf22gbrlpf22 Member Posts: 26 Arc User

    You know I am

    dupeks said:

    @gbrlpf22 @dupeks

    How it is supposed to work=

    "Piercing damage will now be able to benefit from damage vulnerability debuffs..."

    How it is actually working=

    "Piercing damage will now be able to benefit twice from damage vulnerability debuffs..."

    Benefitting twice from debuffs= not WAI, bug, glitch or however you want to call it doesn't matter, what does though is that SoD is benefitting from debuffs more than it should and that needs to be addressed asap.

    As per Sharp's testing that glitch does affect Creeping Death too and as someone who likes SW I'm totally against seeing my dps increased because of an uninteded interaction between fury captone and debuffs, it is just not right, things like that are the reason SW is in the miserable state it is now and I don't want to see the class finally finished off by more nerfs which have precisely been fixes to stuff not WAI.

    Do TR and SW need a serious and well thought rework? yes of course! Should those classes get a dps boost by double benefitting from debuffs? Absolutely no! that will only inevitably get them nerfed and most likely leave them in a worse state than they currently are at.

    It's benefiting twice because the the "base damage" for the piercing hit is calculated from damage that had debuffs applied.

    There are a number of powers that deal an additional hit based on how much damage has already been done to a target etc. All of those powers "double-dip" on debuffs now.

    If you're advocating for creating a new mechanic / class of powers that do not benefit from debuffs on their final hit because it's understood that their effect is already based on damage which took debuffs into account, I'm all for it.

    But saying that "SoD is bugged" right now is incredibly misleading and in my opinion can only serve to make this whole discussion difficult to understand. Piercing damage has nothing to do with it. Any power which is based on damage already dealt behaves this way.
    Dude, watch the video. That is not WAI. It is almost just like MF used to be when it was bugged. A proc is not supposed to hit for 26 mill non-crit. Now, if the encounter hit for that much, fine. But, it is a proc. I would love if I had 26 mill Steel Blitz procs, I know SWs would love 26 mill MF procs, on and on. You are inventing justifications here. First it was a bug, but you need it. Now, it is not a bug, it is WAI. Just wow.
    Just LoL... comparing Steel Blitz and MF with SoD.... Non crit ? whaat?
    Mara Canà - Trickster Rogue 15k - Strawberry Yakuza
  • archangelzorak01archangelzorak01 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 324 Arc User
    edited July 2017

    tom#6998 said:

    Defiantone do u HAMSTER realise that sod is a capstone? Why shouldnt a capstone be allowed to deal that much dmg? I bet trs would love to trade sod for destroyergwf capstone wich is increasing all your dmg by HAMSTER 50%.



    But besides that the biggest problem i see with new sod is that this change does basicly nothing for low-midtier TRs while boosting TR in BIS groups ALOT and thats kinda unfair imo

    It also does nothing for Scoundrel or Sabo, so that is another reason why it must not be WAI. I do not think the devs would make Exe soar so far past the other trees.
    It does do something for Sabo though. Shadowy Opportunity deals piercing damage. Does it make Sabo as strong as Exec? Certainly not, but don't say it does 'nothing' when it most certainly does 'something'. You are correct in saying it does nothing for Scoundrel however.

    ...but this thread is about the piercing damage changes and how they affect Shadow of Demise, not the state of the TR trees.
    Neverwinter Module 6: The only MMO expansion in the history of MMO's to remove more content than it added.


  • archangelzorak01archangelzorak01 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 324 Arc User
    micky1p00 said:

    tom#6998 said:

    Defiantone do u HAMSTER realise that sod is a capstone? Why shouldnt a capstone be allowed to deal that much dmg? I bet trs would love to trade sod for destroyergwf capstone wich is increasing all your dmg by HAMSTER 50%.



    But besides that the biggest problem i see with new sod is that this change does basicly nothing for low-midtier TRs while boosting TR in BIS groups ALOT and thats kinda unfair imo

    It also does nothing for Scoundrel or Sabo, so that is another reason why it must not be WAI. I do not think the devs would make Exe soar so far past the other trees.
    GWF has 3 viable and well balanced paragons ? Right.... Hence the one that working must be not WAI.
    Well said, +1 internets to you my good sir.
    Neverwinter Module 6: The only MMO expansion in the history of MMO's to remove more content than it added.


  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,594 Arc User
    edited July 2017

    micky1p00 said:

    tom#6998 said:

    Defiantone do u HAMSTER realise that sod is a capstone? Why shouldnt a capstone be allowed to deal that much dmg? I bet trs would love to trade sod for destroyergwf capstone wich is increasing all your dmg by HAMSTER 50%.



    But besides that the biggest problem i see with new sod is that this change does basicly nothing for low-midtier TRs while boosting TR in BIS groups ALOT and thats kinda unfair imo

    It also does nothing for Scoundrel or Sabo, so that is another reason why it must not be WAI. I do not think the devs would make Exe soar so far past the other trees.
    GWF has 3 viable and well balanced paragons ? Right.... Hence the one that working must be not WAI.
    You are digging your hole deeper, grasping at straws to be able to exploit a bug. I love it, keep going.
    I'm just pointing out how flawed your arguments are. You can't do the same so you try to throw words around.

    Btw that means Destroyer is a bug ! And you are an exploiter too ! Welcome @defiantone99 you can be my exploiter buddy. You will say I'm an exploiter, I will say that you are, and the mobs will die from laughing.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,594 Arc User

    micky1p00 said:

    micky1p00 said:

    tom#6998 said:

    Defiantone do u HAMSTER realise that sod is a capstone? Why shouldnt a capstone be allowed to deal that much dmg? I bet trs would love to trade sod for destroyergwf capstone wich is increasing all your dmg by HAMSTER 50%.



    But besides that the biggest problem i see with new sod is that this change does basicly nothing for low-midtier TRs while boosting TR in BIS groups ALOT and thats kinda unfair imo

    It also does nothing for Scoundrel or Sabo, so that is another reason why it must not be WAI. I do not think the devs would make Exe soar so far past the other trees.
    GWF has 3 viable and well balanced paragons ? Right.... Hence the one that working must be not WAI.
    You are digging your hole deeper, grasping at straws to be able to exploit a bug. I love it, keep going.
    I'm just pointing out how flawed your arguments are. You can't do the same so you try to throw words around.

    Btw that means Destroyer is a bug ! And you are an exploiter too ! Welcome @defiantone99 you can be my exploiter buddy. You will say I'm an exploiter, I will say that you are, and the mobs will die from laughing.
    You know it is a bug. It is reported as a bug. So, if the devs say it is WAI, that is fine. But, I do not think they will. But, if it is deemed a bug, and goes Live. You knew it was a bug....
    If the devs say it's a bug, it's a bug. Well more like a design mistake, but tomato, tomato....

    But you can't say it's a bug because it's better than Sabo... Or because other classes don't have it... It's a unique mechanic.. so that's a flawed logic.

    I just hope, that the change will be in consideration of the actual numbers and not because there is forum noise either way. Or some video. Next thing we will see someone with a BiS group kills lostmauth before it flies off and we will start balance by that....
  • treesclimbertreesclimber Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,161 Arc User
    Ok, lets see what sabo and scoundrel can do in pve now: nothing
    Now let's see what sabo and scoundrel will be able to do in pve after this change: nothing.

    So what does this change has to do with those paths needing a rework? No clue. What i think is some end game players are afraid that they might be replaced by TR's in low game content.

  • kreatyvekreatyve Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 10,545 Community Moderator
    As this thread has devolved into nothing but an argument about whether or not the skill is bugged, this thread is closed. It will be forwarded to the dev team, who will decide for themselves whether or not it is a bug.
    My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox
    Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official.
    Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
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