In my opinion, the real gate for lots of players are SH boons. You simply cant be in a smaller guild and compete in PvP because the 8k offensive stats and defensive stats are creating the huge gaps between players. You can have two players with the exact same gear and the one in a small guild wont have a fair fight against the one in a bigger guild.
icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
Watched the 3 SW videos Etelgrin posted, honestly I have no idea what he's trying to express, because its very obvious Etelgrin doesnt seem to know the basic OP mechanic and has killed himself all these time......
oks, then, let's summarize the thread to make things easier for @rgutscheradev , shall we?
1 - Power gap: the gap between PvE and PvP must be reducted. 2 - Reduce and separate the amount of "damage types" to pair them with "defense types" (physical damage must be diminished by physical defense) 3 - Reduction of crit suppression to make crits deal damage. 4 - Grant GWF class more "Base tenacity" comparted to other classes due the impact that will make this ArP on the whole class. 5 - Hard Diminishing returns and cap stats on PvP [75%? 80%?] for some stats [DR?, RI?] in PvP. 6 - IMO, Self sustain and over healings should be looked at for good. 7 - Remove boons (at least, SH boons) from bein used on PvP.
something else?
Thanks for staying on track. This is good.
#1 is VERY important. Maybe the most important.
#2 I am not sure what this is getting at. I am VERY against "layers" as I have shown in the previous pages. Crit Resist is a perfect example of how more layers = broken. More layers = more convolution about what actually happens. People have said, after we fully explain how crits work, "oh, thats why I was getting such weird results when testing". Its all from layers. We need less layers not more.
#3 Actually Crit Resistance needs to be completely removed. We dont need LESS of it. Now that would make crits too OP, so "Crit Resist" merely needs to turn into a "reduction to crit severity" instead of being an entirely NEW layer of reduction. (as I have shown on previous pages about how crit resist currently works)
#4 I also dont like going down this road. Giving more base stat on just 1 class.. Wouldnt it be better to just fix the class? Heck, why tenacity? WHy not more base HP? why not make unstoppable provide the old values of DR (40-80%) there are a myriad of options other than just giving 1 class more base tenacity....
#5 Diminishing returns was invoked as a way to accomplish #1. If you bring back massive Dim Returns on stats, a player wouldnt have to stack 20k of something if they got 90% of the same result at 5k. Which allows new players to be competitive if they only have 4k in said stat (rough example). This is ONE good option but would require them to have different stat curves for PVP than PVE - something I dont know if they are up for or not.
#6 Completely agree. I would START by nerfing Endless Consumption which RIGHT NOW is ~30% chance to proc (might be 1/3rd) and TRIPLES your lifesteal, so in short it roughly = "doubles" your lifesteal.... What it SHOULD do instead is merely give you ~5% more CHANCE to lifesteal... OR another would be maybe "10% more severity" something like this. I would NOT just give it an ICD as that would make it worthless. Changing it is much better. Next I would look at healing insignias.. - This whole self heal thing just makes me chuckle though because the entire point tenacity was brought into the game and heal depression was to REMOVE self healing, now we are worse than before with all the items and things that provide it....
#7 This is another approach to #1 "reducing the gap". The actual "GEAR" you have on your character only represents about 1/3rd of your total stats and boons make up about 2/3rds of all your stats.... So removing this, removes tens of thousands of stats that frankly the average person doesnt have... When a player first hits 70, its a LONG road ahead of him before he can even PVP. PVP needs to be something that anyone can do, at any level, with any gear and still be "competitive". Will someone with no gear and no boons be #1? No. I think you NEED "item progression" in PVP as that is part of the appeal of MMORPGS... But right now, a fresh lvl 70 cant even play PVP AT ALL... He needs to first get tenacity gear, then he needs to spent 4+ weeks doing a TON of module dailies each day, to get boons to then STILL not be competitive because he doesnt have artifacts, arti-equip, mounts,insignias, etc. The "barrier to entry" is just FAR too high which explains the low level of population we have right now.
You missed this point, but since @rgutscheradev already said in his OP, maybe thats why: #8 Remove all tenacity on gear. Players should be given these "effects" in PVP rather than it being on gear.
Appart from saying all this good staff. One of the easiest ways to START fixing GF's 2 shotting ppl (Appart from having ENDLESS shield mechanics) is to remove Bullscharge control OR damage. I wont mind much if bullcharge can hit me for 50-100k but remove the prone control effect OR let it prone someone with either nono or very little dmg. The only reason GF's can land so much damage is the bullcharge damage along with the prone effect thats being followed by either daily or other battle skills. Remove prone or remove damage from bullscharge and many ppl will be happy, That wont effect pve very much at all.
thx.
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checkmatein3Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 525Arc User
I hate PvP, so that all may know my bias. I hate it for some of the reasons listed here, for some things in my own class, but mostly, because of the attitude PvP creates with people towards others. PvP is designed to have a winner and a loser. That will not and should not change.
The issue is whether you can go into PvP with a system that is fair so that any person with any build at any time has a fighting chance against another person (or party/team). This is not the case. Most of the solutions suggested (take out boons, nerf this class, nerf that function, etc) is because what is desired in PvP is a fighting chance. I am a BIS PvE GF, but I am not built (nor will I make a build) for PvP. But do I have a fighting chance in PvP? Its random. Maybe yes, maybe no.
The helplessness one has when you queue up for PvP and find yourself against the PvP-only crowd, is the #1 reason why the majority of the player base avoids PvP, and why the suggestions on this thread will do more HARM to the majority of the player base, than good, IF any of these suggestions spill over into PvE (by design or by accident).
So, how can one fix the root cause?
#1--As mentioned in this thread, make a queue system that actually works! Seriously. Make those points actually count. I refuse to believe that there is no way to make a formula that takes into account the current player's experience, TIL, etc. Here is another thing, include all the PvP zones towards points. Experience in PvP everywhere should count.
#2--Make more than solo queues. This does not solve the issue. Why? Because of syncing of solo queues and party make up. Make the goal of PvP to be more than just...hold point, kill. Make the achievements for PvP more than just kill, kill fast, kill double, kill triple, kill the killed. BORING! As I got my HAMSTER handed to me by some very good PvPers, the end result is to stand around and do nothing. This cannot be fun for those PvPers who want a challenge. And, you only upset those players who have a particular bent to want to use the game to fill a void in their real lives by dominating over helpless people. Who cares if they are ticked off? I am satisfied in PvP, when, win or lose, the whole contest was well fought. Winning handedly and losing abysmally is not fun. But, don't make the goal so incredibly complex, the fight so long, the map so big, the rewards so poor (Stronghold PvP) that no one wants to play.
#3--Make a Gladiator Arena/Ranking. I mentioned this in a PvP thread in player feedback. Have a system where you enter with nothing. All the gear you have is stripped out. No enchants. No companions. No boons. No artifacts. You enter as a new gladiator with a low ranking. You have to choose gear (bad gear to begin with) to go fight another gladiator (another player). Make the rankings based on THE FIGHTING CHANCE of the class + gear against any other class + same gear. Design the gear with the class to highlight skill. As you rank up the gladiator, you start to pair against other gladiators of higher ranks, or unlock team based gladiator matches. The gear changes. You can even sell it as a special loadout (Gladiator PvP). It gives those who desire a chance for glory to get it, whether in a guild or solo, whether they are new player or not. The formulation is easier, but it would require a HAMSTER ton of new coding. And in this system, a gladiator is never paired against another gladiator that is more than 2 ranks away. +/- 1 rank only. Hell, make the top dog Gladiator Supreme. Give them a server ability to arrange an annual gladiator challenge. Then, those with that skill get the reward they have richly deserved in focusing on PvP...recognition for skill and winning in PvP over opponents that are similarly geared. Give players observable Chevrons next to their name so all may see how bad HAMSTER they are. Give them a title. I mean, some of these PvPers really are good at doing PvP. Let the playerbase see their dedication. It seems odd that a world of DnD would be devoid of a system where recognition for fighting is not in the realm?
#4--Make more PvP maps with different goals. I mentioned a 3v3 capture-the-flag PvP map. Three man team randomly spawns at each end of a labyrinth. The map is divided into halves (like Stronghold PvP, but much smaller). Each team plants their flag somewhere on their half. The players can go about and set traps (craftable with Professions and Mastercrafting), transport traps, etc. throughout the map to protect their flag, and would need to plan to both defend and capture. Killing is secondary to capture. Make maps that have more than just easy access points. Make additional effects happen. Floors disappearing, bridges collapsing, etc. Be creative and surprise us.
#5--Make rewards for PvP better than what they are. There are two kinds of rewards: the tangible and intangible. The tangible reward is the items received from completing the match, win or lose. The intangible is the desire to do it again and to receive the recognition for continued success. This is about TANGIBLE reward. The reward is glory and seals, to get gear to do better at getting glory and seals. And after a long time of doing a whole bunch of PvP, you can get boons that are worthless in PvP. And, after you get enough glory and seals, you can donate your glory and seals to the stronghold (unless you are a lone wolf). The rewards for players at every level of PvP is quite sparse. Look what happened to PvP when you introduced a REWARD system in the Neverwinter Combat League that was MORE than just glory/seals to get gear to get more glory/seals! And look at how the PvP community has begged you to bring that back!!! Take the hint! Make better rewards. And dont make the rewards Bind to Character. Let the PvP community, if they so choose, GRIND out that Legend Mount and sell it. My god! That alone would BOOST PvP participation... Hell, I would go get whacked in PvP 100s of times to get that 1 win to get closer to a legend mount.
Appart from saying all this good staff. One of the easiest ways to START fixing GF's 2 shotting ppl (Appart from having ENDLESS shield mechanics) is to remove Bullscharge control OR damage. I wont mind much if bullcharge can hit me for 50-100k but remove the prone control effect OR let it prone someone with either nono or very little dmg. The only reason GF's can land so much damage is the bullcharge damage along with the prone effect thats being followed by either daily or other battle skills. Remove prone or remove damage from bullscharge and many ppl will be happy, That wont effect pve very much at all.
thx.
Indeed,
Like I mentioned before, balance the two effects (control/damage burst).
Prone, in general, is a nice mechanic in that it allows a different type of control (variety is good, cw icy rays is another example). The combat advantage + prone is nasty, exacerbated by the duration of said control effect. I believe GF also has that daily that prones you and goes through dodges/cc immunity.
I like the prone duration though. Therefore, possibly remove CA from certain powers or nerf it for pvp? I believe this has been mentioned in a post by @etelgrin.
"Jazz isn't dead, it just smells funny" - Frank Zappa
Appart from saying all this good staff. One of the easiest ways to START fixing GF's 2 shotting ppl (Appart from having ENDLESS shield mechanics) is to remove Bullscharge control OR damage. I wont mind much if bullcharge can hit me for 50-100k but remove the prone control effect OR let it prone someone with either nono or very little dmg. The only reason GF's can land so much damage is the bullcharge damage along with the prone effect thats being followed by either daily or other battle skills. Remove prone or remove damage from bullscharge and many ppl will be happy, That wont effect pve very much at all.
thx.
Sure, so smart guy, tell us... they gonna nerf piercing dmg of tr and hr, u want they nerf gf dmg, ok. So who exatly should kill who??? we keep gonna play running base to base whit perma cb, perma smock, perma repel??? is this pvp???
How im i a smart guy? GF is totally imballanced, mainly becuz tanks got survivability along with crazy damage and control. You either get control or damage or survavability. in Mod 3 GWF's roar CONTROL got nurfed to iblivion therefour GWF could not realise their damage potential. Thats the reason ive stopped playing GWF in mod 3+ and changed to DC.
Why cant GF get his control nurfed, fine leave the damage, remove the control and most prolly they wont be as effective as they are now .... simple thing to fix.
Why cant GF get his control nurfed, fine leave the damage, remove the control and most prolly they wont be as effective as they are now .... simple thing to fix.
due a simple and obvious reason: GFs are meant to be TANKS and controllers to get the aggro, not Damage Dealers at all.
YOU DONT UNDERSTAND ONE THING.
BULLCHARGE IS PVP SKILL NOT PVE.
by removing prone control from bullscharge IT WILL NOT EFFECT pve community by any means. show me ANY tank that uses bullscharge in PVE dungeon....
Why cant GF get his control nurfed, fine leave the damage, remove the control and most prolly they wont be as effective as they are now .... simple thing to fix.
due a simple and obvious reason: GFs are meant to be TANKS and controllers to get the aggro, not Damage Dealers at all.
YOU DONT UNDERSTAND ONE THING.
BULLCHARGE IS PVP SKILL NOT PVE.
by removing prone control from bullscharge IT WILL NOT EFFECT pve community by any means. show me ANY tank that uses bullscharge in PVE dungeon....
I don't think anyone really wants to remove prone, just the synergy between it, combat advantage, and bull charge raw damage. If it's a proning control power then reduce the damage, that simple. IF they normalize PVE damage with PVP (or whatever the theory is) more damage occurs and satisfies the concern that no one dies...although this the case RIGHT NOW for some classes lol. The same argument applies to trapper HR I would think. I got waxed by a well known trapper HR when he took out most of his enchantments, it was humiliating, and I had to go smoke a J . With T. elven I was HAMSTER. Of course he and some of the other good PVP HR's know their class WAAAAAAY better than the rest of us.
"Jazz isn't dead, it just smells funny" - Frank Zappa
Sure, so smart guy, tell us... they gonna nerf piercing dmg of tr and hr, u want they nerf gf dmg, ok. So who exatly should kill who??? we keep gonna play running base to base whit perma cb, perma smock, perma repel??? is this pvp???
They did say something about looking at cc being a priority for the next half-module, so there's that. Of course, those problems are also heavily interconnected with other things. TRs should lose the broken troll cc (perma-CB/SB) but then they'd also need to look at their balance of damage and survivability (TRs having far too many layers of defense available while doing piddly damage for being a striker) and CWs likewise use lots of Repel because that's pretty much the only thing they have that's effective.
The problem of inability to kill each other needs to be addressed by toning down healing in PvP, not by maintaining lopsided stats that make for an enormous and nearly insurmountable gear gap between new and established players.
The list of things they need to change to make PvP good again is quite long at this point, but the top priority should be to broaden accessibility so as to raise overall participation.
Gear gap: Rank 9 or rank 12 half defense half offence is not a huge gap by any means and easy enough to get rank 9/10.
4 artifacts takes some time true but 1 to mythic and rest orange is not that much to ask.
Pve gear instead of pvp gear closes the gear gap to pretty much even for all unless very new to the game.
Artifact weapon/gear is much easer now than before but is a must here you can't be to new to the game granting everybody access to fully refined artifact weapons is not a long stretch and would do tons to even out the field for new players.
Mounts + sigils need to be removed from pvp for many reasons gear gap just being one of them.
Sh boon has to go and enough reason to cover pages has been written already about that.
Campaign boons need to either automatically be granted to all that enter pvp or as written before diminish return on stats fix or removed as it creates a huge gap.
Trancsendent enchants in both armor and weapons is a factor that some wants to even out some do not I can see good arguments on both sides and leave this up for votes.
Let's not forget we only have ONE type of map - capture the node which in turn makes for very similar build among classes (not to mention that most classes only have one valid path to go down in pvp).
Steal the flag, hold the hill, death matches etc. etc. would create more diversity of what kind of build gear that is good for certain maps.
There are many good examples out there how some game made pvp fun and thriving and example has been giving like wow etc.
I think the devs are on the right track atm with player buffs instead of pvp armor, solo queue and private queue if they listen to not only the experianced but also the the majority of the playerbase am sure it can end rather good for NW pvp.
Some argue that Gf has to much damage or to much damage or to much defence or to much cc and some all the former but that is beside the point atm. It comes down to all classes as this is not about class balance right now.
CC deminish - going to effect all classes some more some less and class balance has to address that not the reverse!!
Arpen changes - being tested
Piercing changes - being tested
Player pvp buff being tested? or...
Lets test what we can do the best of that and ask for fixes and then other changes - class balance is NOT on the table so there is no winning to argue that class has to much of that and this class has to little of this on this thread imo..
On a side note: I can record some matches with BIS Gwfs and they should be careful of asking that Gf be nerfed in damage for trust me if it happens they WILL have to nerf end game Gwfs burst damage also :-)....
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
Why cant GF get his control nurfed, fine leave the damage, remove the control and most prolly they wont be as effective as they are now .... simple thing to fix.
due a simple and obvious reason: GFs are meant to be TANKS and controllers to get the aggro, not Damage Dealers at all.
YOU DONT UNDERSTAND ONE THING.
BULLCHARGE IS PVP SKILL NOT PVE.
by removing prone control from bullscharge IT WILL NOT EFFECT pve community by any means. show me ANY tank that uses bullscharge in PVE dungeon....
I don't think anyone really wants to remove prone, just the synergy between it, combat advantage, and bull charge raw damage. If it's a proning control power then reduce the damage, that simple. IF they normalize PVE damage with PVP (or whatever the theory is) more damage occurs and satisfies the concern that no one dies...although this the case RIGHT NOW for some classes lol. The same argument applies to trapper HR I would think. I got waxed by a well known trapper HR when he took out most of his enchantments, it was humiliating, and I had to go smoke a J . With T. elven I was HAMSTER. Of course he and some of the other good PVP HR's know their class WAAAAAAY better than the rest of us.
and frontline surge was once upon a time a prone and became stun in pvp .
Lord knows I hate to even say any thing< but here goes. Do you really want just BIS in PVP. Ist I did not like the changes to HR when they did the rework but the best person doing Class balance Left in the middle. As a HR when class balance was being done I spoke out against it.HR needed a big damage boost for PVP because the class was dying. The problem was not making PVE more powerful. So we got 50% piercing and became viable in PVP. Cryptic will not commit the resources to fix things over all SO Why nerf any class right now! Till they can address whole PVP class balance this is just crazy with these changes to Piercing you will eliminate the only threats to the God like Bis players which are the ones on this thread. So now we get nerfed with out any compensation at all. I PVP as a combat HR and am not quite BIS with Piercing I am a threat but most of the Bis players have worked out how to deal with HRs. I regularly face Saber and Icy and they deal JUST FINE. Other than a few BIS HRs with gear and SH boons to stack over 230k HPs the rest of the HRs just are not that big of a threat to the end game players. HR got Piercing to give us teeth and become a way to defeat the other classes that ruled PVP. Many of the GWF and GFs were not happy with this but look who rules the leader board with most kills. I just ask that don't do anything to class balance til we get all classes reworked. With out piercing HR will become a dead class can PVP really afford to loss a Whole Class of player Base. I already see premade after premade daily while getting my Conc shards for my Guild. We finally got To A place where HR had a choice of @ paths and we are not the top DPS in the room the GF and GWF are. So class balance needs to come as a whole to PVP not as a nerf to TR or HR. I would Like to see Piercing replaced but these changes just end the class as a pvp option and the gear gap will even further widen because the BIG BIS with deep pockets will just stack Tenacity. I just play a HR who has spent 2 years in a PVE guild due to friends( which is only reason I stay with this game) but love to PVP I took my beatings daily to get better gear and after a long time I Can hold my one in a 1 vs one but @ 15k IL I am still not the threat that the other classes are at same IL if they know how to build there toon for pvp or have a PVP guild with the boons
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kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
edited June 2017
@jhpnw lets see ... where to begin with you ... quotes from your thread
". Do you really want just BIS in PVP"
umm this thread is about opening up options for lower barriers to entry/ balance to pvp for there were many suggestions that counter most of your complaints.. where did anybody say they only want bis in pvp in fact many said the opposite
"Cryptic will not commit the resources to fix things over all SO Why nerf any class right now! Till they can address whole PVP class balance this is just crazy with these"
there you ask and answer your own question.. they need to make smaller changes first and the dev said more are on the table next mod had you read.... there is one dev trying to help us with this they are low on resources we will take what we can get.. this is a side effect of armor pen fixes and changes in pve as well
here you say its piercing the only threat to god players ... "changes to Piercing you will eliminate the only threats to the God like Bis players which are the ones on this thread
here you contradict yourself
" the rest of the HRs just are not that big of a threat to the end game players."
so this adjustment would only effect a few end game hr s like you crying should balance be based one the few like you or the many ?? in most player eyes YOU are the god like player
what about the mid and low end hr we want to bring in new player right ? will the piecing as it is be balanced for low and mid ranged pvp i think NOT
"changes just end the class as a pvp option and the gear gap will even further widen because the BIG BIS with deep pockets will just stack Tenacity"
tenacity is on the table to be removed / given a base stat to all ... and you cant over stack it anyways . with the most stackable stat armor pen resist (~76%)being removed most player with the 50k hitpoint armor are around 68% at the moment just flat out wrong dude as deep as pockets are you cant just buy more tenacity
dude you need to read the entire thread and what the dev actually wrote before ranting nonsense
everybody is going to be more or less squishier next mod with the meta changing to extreme burst damage ...kill or be killed
you might not be doing as much perceing damage but alot of targets will be squishier as well
and if the meta of kyte fighting off nodes comes back then you have way more time at range to attack and clear some one off the node without even having to step on it or contest it ...where some classes will be force pinned on the node (no range no gap closers )..or the get off the node and face me or die game meta begins which we have not had for a while
most non ranged classes are squishier in the new meta with puts ranged at an advantage again to tease and taunt people to go off node... with less risk to you being restricted to fighting in a small space on node
that was an earlier pvp complaint/ meta problem less geared class with good attack power ranging and chipping away at health off node or up on the balconies at range ..anoying but effective sometimes
so even if piecing is halved at range you get in 2 or 3 more rotation to targets that cant reach you .. with reduced armor pen resistance now ... or go in to sacrifice yourself 2 v 1and kill one bis player and then be taken out by the second
so in short piecing needs to be nerfed as a side effect of changes you dont seem to be complain that trs got piecing nerfed
so in summary you just dont want it adjusted so you can kill a few high end pvp players that are like less then 1% of the population that you may have a personal vendetta with
the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few to quote spock
in the meantime just drink like 20 pvp potions to counter the nerf lol
Post edited by kalina311 on
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kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
edited June 2017
I have a radical suggestion folks how about the newer the players account is the bigger buff he/ she gets in pvp the older the account is the less they get till its neutral after say a few months
say a buff for new pvp players on a new account with less boons/ resources etc month 1 15% buff month 2 10% buff month 3 5% buff month 4 neutral like everyone else
there is no way anyone could twink and unlock all boons in that time for it to debalance anything and even if they did it would be month 4 back to normal
Lord knows I hate to even say any thing< but here goes. Do you really want just BIS in PVP. Ist I did not like the changes to HR when they did the rework but the best person doing Class balance Left in the middle. As a HR when class balance was being done I spoke out against it.HR needed a big damage boost for PVP because the class was dying. The problem was not making PVE more powerful. So we got 50% piercing and became viable in PVP. Cryptic will not commit the resources to fix things over all SO Why nerf any class right now! Till they can address whole PVP class balance this is just crazy with these changes to Piercing you will eliminate the only threats to the God like Bis players which are the ones on this thread. So now we get nerfed with out any compensation at all. I PVP as a combat HR and am not quite BIS with Piercing I am a threat but most of the Bis players have worked out how to deal with HRs. I regularly face Saber and Icy and they deal JUST FINE. Other than a few BIS HRs with gear and SH boons to stack over 230k HPs the rest of the HRs just are not that big of a threat to the end game players. HR got Piercing to give us teeth and become a way to defeat the other classes that ruled PVP. Many of the GWF and GFs were not happy with this but look who rules the leader board with most kills. I just ask that don't do anything to class balance til we get all classes reworked. With out piercing HR will become a dead class can PVP really afford to loss a Whole Class of player Base. I already see premade after premade daily while getting my Conc shards for my Guild. We finally got To A place where HR had a choice of @ paths and we are not the top DPS in the room the GF and GWF are. So class balance needs to come as a whole to PVP not as a nerf to TR or HR. I would Like to see Piercing replaced but these changes just end the class as a pvp option and the gear gap will even further widen because the BIG BIS with deep pockets will just stack Tenacity. I just play a HR who has spent 2 years in a PVE guild due to friends( which is only reason I stay with this game) but love to PVP I took my beatings daily to get better gear and after a long time I Can hold my one in a 1 vs one but @ 15k IL I am still not the threat that the other classes are at same IL if they know how to build there toon for pvp or have a PVP guild with the boons
Well ..... Much of what you write is not wrong in any way but in the perspective of making pvp for all it falls a bit short.
Piercing nullifies any kind of defence as it is and that negates all classes that want to build defence it just negates to much for to many classes.
As Kalina pointed out tenacity will be same for all and can not be stacked as it is said now.
If NW pvp are to move forward an overhaul is needed and removal of things like piercing ( 250k+exe is not fun nm how you put it) is one of the broken things that need to go as the mechanics do more harm then good.
CC diminish or some form of immunity after beeing cced is also needed, endless repel, smoke-smoke-smoke-smoke-CB-CB_CB or chains of cc until you die is just as boring as 250k exe.
Evertybody knows it is going to be a LOOOOONG road to fix NW pvp from todays missery but these steps now taken by the devs are indeed promising.
Myself I also play combat Hr and even if sacrificing piercing in pvp will nerf him to more or less unplayable I do understand that it is a something I have to live with if NW pvp are to move forward (and I do admit seing exe nerfed also helps a bit :-)....
Why cant GF get his control nurfed, fine leave the damage, remove the control and most prolly they wont be as effective as they are now .... simple thing to fix.
due a simple and obvious reason: GFs are meant to be TANKS and controllers to get the aggro, not Damage Dealers at all.
YOU DONT UNDERSTAND ONE THING.
BULLCHARGE IS PVP SKILL NOT PVE.
by removing prone control from bullscharge IT WILL NOT EFFECT pve community by any means. show me ANY tank that uses bullscharge in PVE dungeon....
I don't think anyone really wants to remove prone, just the synergy between it, combat advantage, and bull charge raw damage. If it's a proning control power then reduce the damage, that simple. IF they normalize PVE damage with PVP (or whatever the theory is) more damage occurs and satisfies the concern that no one dies...although this the case RIGHT NOW for some classes lol. The same argument applies to trapper HR I would think. I got waxed by a well known trapper HR when he took out most of his enchantments, it was humiliating, and I had to go smoke a J . With T. elven I was HAMSTER. Of course he and some of the other good PVP HR's know their class WAAAAAAY better than the rest of us.
and frontline surge was once upon a time a prone and became stun in pvp .
EXACTLY. Back in mod 3, GWF was way too imbalanced becuz of the control and crazy damage.
Why cant we remove prone from bullcharge and make it a stun at least..... i dont see it to be very difficult thing.
If only boons were an account wide unlock.. After 12 mods is ridicolous to force people to farm multiple campaign multiple times. I have no longer time for all this and i guess this holds true for many
If only boons were an account wide unlock.. After 12 mods is ridicolous to force people to farm multiple campaign multiple times. I have no longer time for all this and i guess this holds true for many
This, I've suggested this in the streams a few times but its obviously falling on deaf ears. Even the newer dungeons have to be unlocked through campaigns and these should at least be account wide unlocks. For Boons perhaps the older campaigns can be bought in the zen store, perhaps charge more for it but make it an account wide unlock. I would pay 10k zen to have it unlocked on all my other toons. The newer campaigns can be grinded out as normal, this will also really help newer players getting into pve and pvp content and will also help older players to make additional viable characters. nobody wants to grind out the same HAMSTER on 8 different characters if you've already done it on 1.
due a simple and obvious reason: GFs are meant to be TANKS and controllers to get the aggro, not Damage Dealers at all.
YOU DONT UNDERSTAND ONE THING.
BULLCHARGE IS PVP SKILL NOT PVE.
by removing prone control from bullscharge IT WILL NOT EFFECT pve community by any means. show me ANY tank that uses bullscharge in PVE dungeon....
EXACTLY. Back in mod 3, GWF was way too imbalanced becuz of the control and crazy damage.
Why cant we remove prone from bullcharge and make it a stun at least..... i dont see it to be very difficult thing.
I agree that a gf's base damage is way too high, though I dont know if its just because of their synergy with CA that makes it so great. in MSVA I've seen a GF do almost 500M damage and the next highest DPS was around 250k - this was back when AA was still super AA - so yeah he was probably using knight's challenge. My point with this is that a support class should not be able to out DPS a dps class, you shouldnt have a dps class out tanking a tank class either, regardless of skill and gear. (in fact disregard this completely because atm I do feel that their damage is in a good place)
Bullcharge can be utilised as a PVE skill, the feat that grants the GF 10% bonus damage for 3 sec's after a control power is used - this feat debuffs the opponent, regardless of whether the control worked or not, eg. if you bull charge orcus, for 3 seconds your party can do 10% extra damage to him (someone please correct me if i'm wrong)
Making the prone a stun would be 1 thing, but you could still be 1 rotationed, bull charge immediately puts you at the face of your opponent, Bull charge stun > IS Prone would be quick and you're dead. So the stun mechanic wouldn't make any difference.
I hate calling for Nerf's to anything, nerfing ends up breaking other mechanics and that's not cool. The GF is one class that is completely viable no matter which path you choose to take so they really are in a good place right now. Perhaps what should be changed is the control resist mechanic in pvp (perhaps a change in how long any control is effective too?), so if you have a high enough control resist, BC and Griffon won't end up proning and stunning you but IS daily will, this will also help with the perma stuns, perma repels, perma rooted - will not be an issue any longer. yes you may be able to get controlled but the duration will be decreased so it wont be Courage breaker upon Courage breaker till you're controlled to death.
Why cant GF get his control nurfed, fine leave the damage, remove the control and most prolly they wont be as effective as they are now .... simple thing to fix.
due a simple and obvious reason: GFs are meant to be TANKS and controllers to get the aggro, not Damage Dealers at all.
YOU DONT UNDERSTAND ONE THING.
BULLCHARGE IS PVP SKILL NOT PVE.
by removing prone control from bullscharge IT WILL NOT EFFECT pve community by any means. show me ANY tank that uses bullscharge in PVE dungeon....
I don't think anyone really wants to remove prone, just the synergy between it, combat advantage, and bull charge raw damage. If it's a proning control power then reduce the damage, that simple. IF they normalize PVE damage with PVP (or whatever the theory is) more damage occurs and satisfies the concern that no one dies...although this the case RIGHT NOW for some classes lol. The same argument applies to trapper HR I would think. I got waxed by a well known trapper HR when he took out most of his enchantments, it was humiliating, and I had to go smoke a J . With T. elven I was HAMSTER. Of course he and some of the other good PVP HR's know their class WAAAAAAY better than the rest of us.
and frontline surge was once upon a time a prone and became stun in pvp .
EXACTLY. Back in mod 3, GWF was way too imbalanced becuz of the control and crazy damage.
Why cant we remove prone from bullcharge and make it a stun at least..... i dont see it to be very difficult thing.
I agree that a gf's base damage is way too high, though I dont know if its just because of their synergy with CA that makes it so great. in MSVA I've seen a GF do almost 500M damage and the next highest DPS was around 250k - this was back when AA was still super AA - so yeah he was probably using knight's challenge. My point with this is that a support class should not be able to out DPS a dps class, you shouldnt have a dps class out tanking a tank class either, regardless of skill and gear. (in fact disregard this completely because atm I do feel that their damage is in a good place)
Bullcharge can be utilised as a PVE skill, the feat that grants the GF 10% bonus damage for 3 sec's after a control power is used - this feat debuffs the opponent, regardless of whether the control worked or not, eg. if you bull charge orcus, for 3 seconds your party can do 10% extra damage to him (someone please correct me if i'm wrong)
Making the prone a stun would be 1 thing, but you could still be 1 rotationed, bull charge immediately puts you at the face of your opponent, Bull charge stun > IS Prone would be quick and you're dead. So the stun mechanic wouldn't make any difference.
I hate calling for Nerf's to anything, nerfing ends up breaking other mechanics and that's not cool. The GF is one class that is completely viable no matter which path you choose to take so they really are in a good place right now. Perhaps what should be changed is the control resist mechanic in pvp (perhaps a change in how long any control is effective too?), so if you have a high enough control resist, BC and Griffon won't end up proning and stunning you but IS daily will, this will also help with the perma stuns, perma repels, perma rooted - will not be an issue any longer. yes you may be able to get controlled but the duration will be decreased so it wont be Courage breaker upon Courage breaker till you're controlled to death.
Comments
Please do not ignore the above.
Aelan Icebleed (CW)
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
#1 is VERY important. Maybe the most important.
#2 I am not sure what this is getting at. I am VERY against "layers" as I have shown in the previous pages. Crit Resist is a perfect example of how more layers = broken. More layers = more convolution about what actually happens. People have said, after we fully explain how crits work, "oh, thats why I was getting such weird results when testing". Its all from layers. We need less layers not more.
#3 Actually Crit Resistance needs to be completely removed. We dont need LESS of it. Now that would make crits too OP, so "Crit Resist" merely needs to turn into a "reduction to crit severity" instead of being an entirely NEW layer of reduction. (as I have shown on previous pages about how crit resist currently works)
#4 I also dont like going down this road. Giving more base stat on just 1 class.. Wouldnt it be better to just fix the class? Heck, why tenacity? WHy not more base HP? why not make unstoppable provide the old values of DR (40-80%) there are a myriad of options other than just giving 1 class more base tenacity....
#5 Diminishing returns was invoked as a way to accomplish #1. If you bring back massive Dim Returns on stats, a player wouldnt have to stack 20k of something if they got 90% of the same result at 5k. Which allows new players to be competitive if they only have 4k in said stat (rough example). This is ONE good option but would require them to have different stat curves for PVP than PVE - something I dont know if they are up for or not.
#6 Completely agree. I would START by nerfing Endless Consumption which RIGHT NOW is ~30% chance to proc (might be 1/3rd) and TRIPLES your lifesteal, so in short it roughly = "doubles" your lifesteal.... What it SHOULD do instead is merely give you ~5% more CHANCE to lifesteal... OR another would be maybe "10% more severity" something like this. I would NOT just give it an ICD as that would make it worthless. Changing it is much better. Next I would look at healing insignias..
- This whole self heal thing just makes me chuckle though because the entire point tenacity was brought into the game and heal depression was to REMOVE self healing, now we are worse than before with all the items and things that provide it....
#7 This is another approach to #1 "reducing the gap". The actual "GEAR" you have on your character only represents about 1/3rd of your total stats and boons make up about 2/3rds of all your stats.... So removing this, removes tens of thousands of stats that frankly the average person doesnt have... When a player first hits 70, its a LONG road ahead of him before he can even PVP. PVP needs to be something that anyone can do, at any level, with any gear and still be "competitive". Will someone with no gear and no boons be #1? No. I think you NEED "item progression" in PVP as that is part of the appeal of MMORPGS... But right now, a fresh lvl 70 cant even play PVP AT ALL... He needs to first get tenacity gear, then he needs to spent 4+ weeks doing a TON of module dailies each day, to get boons to then STILL not be competitive because he doesnt have artifacts, arti-equip, mounts,insignias, etc. The "barrier to entry" is just FAR too high which explains the low level of population we have right now.
You missed this point, but since @rgutscheradev already said in his OP, maybe thats why:
#8 Remove all tenacity on gear. Players should be given these "effects" in PVP rather than it being on gear.
One of the easiest ways to START fixing GF's 2 shotting ppl (Appart from having ENDLESS shield mechanics) is to remove Bullscharge control OR damage. I wont mind much if bullcharge can hit me for 50-100k but remove the prone control effect OR let it prone someone with either nono or very little dmg. The only reason GF's can land so much damage is the bullcharge damage along with the prone effect thats being followed by either daily or other battle skills. Remove prone or remove damage from bullscharge and many ppl will be happy, That wont effect pve very much at all.
thx.
The issue is whether you can go into PvP with a system that is fair so that any person with any build at any time has a fighting chance against another person (or party/team). This is not the case. Most of the solutions suggested (take out boons, nerf this class, nerf that function, etc) is because what is desired in PvP is a fighting chance. I am a BIS PvE GF, but I am not built (nor will I make a build) for PvP. But do I have a fighting chance in PvP? Its random. Maybe yes, maybe no.
The helplessness one has when you queue up for PvP and find yourself against the PvP-only crowd, is the #1 reason why the majority of the player base avoids PvP, and why the suggestions on this thread will do more HARM to the majority of the player base, than good, IF any of these suggestions spill over into PvE (by design or by accident).
So, how can one fix the root cause?
#1--As mentioned in this thread, make a queue system that actually works! Seriously. Make those points actually count. I refuse to believe that there is no way to make a formula that takes into account the current player's experience, TIL, etc. Here is another thing, include all the PvP zones towards points. Experience in PvP everywhere should count.
#2--Make more than solo queues. This does not solve the issue. Why? Because of syncing of solo queues and party make up. Make the goal of PvP to be more than just...hold point, kill. Make the achievements for PvP more than just kill, kill fast, kill double, kill triple, kill the killed. BORING! As I got my HAMSTER handed to me by some very good PvPers, the end result is to stand around and do nothing. This cannot be fun for those PvPers who want a challenge. And, you only upset those players who have a particular bent to want to use the game to fill a void in their real lives by dominating over helpless people. Who cares if they are ticked off? I am satisfied in PvP, when, win or lose, the whole contest was well fought. Winning handedly and losing abysmally is not fun. But, don't make the goal so incredibly complex, the fight so long, the map so big, the rewards so poor (Stronghold PvP) that no one wants to play.
#3--Make a Gladiator Arena/Ranking. I mentioned this in a PvP thread in player feedback. Have a system where you enter with nothing. All the gear you have is stripped out. No enchants. No companions. No boons. No artifacts. You enter as a new gladiator with a low ranking. You have to choose gear (bad gear to begin with) to go fight another gladiator (another player). Make the rankings based on THE FIGHTING CHANCE of the class + gear against any other class + same gear. Design the gear with the class to highlight skill. As you rank up the gladiator, you start to pair against other gladiators of higher ranks, or unlock team based gladiator matches. The gear changes. You can even sell it as a special loadout (Gladiator PvP). It gives those who desire a chance for glory to get it, whether in a guild or solo, whether they are new player or not. The formulation is easier, but it would require a HAMSTER ton of new coding. And in this system, a gladiator is never paired against another gladiator that is more than 2 ranks away. +/- 1 rank only. Hell, make the top dog Gladiator Supreme. Give them a server ability to arrange an annual gladiator challenge. Then, those with that skill get the reward they have richly deserved in focusing on PvP...recognition for skill and winning in PvP over opponents that are similarly geared. Give players observable Chevrons next to their name so all may see how bad HAMSTER they are. Give them a title. I mean, some of these PvPers really are good at doing PvP. Let the playerbase see their dedication. It seems odd that a world of DnD would be devoid of a system where recognition for fighting is not in the realm?
#4--Make more PvP maps with different goals. I mentioned a 3v3 capture-the-flag PvP map. Three man team randomly spawns at each end of a labyrinth. The map is divided into halves (like Stronghold PvP, but much smaller). Each team plants their flag somewhere on their half. The players can go about and set traps (craftable with Professions and Mastercrafting), transport traps, etc. throughout the map to protect their flag, and would need to plan to both defend and capture. Killing is secondary to capture. Make maps that have more than just easy access points. Make additional effects happen. Floors disappearing, bridges collapsing, etc. Be creative and surprise us.
#5--Make rewards for PvP better than what they are. There are two kinds of rewards: the tangible and intangible. The tangible reward is the items received from completing the match, win or lose. The intangible is the desire to do it again and to receive the recognition for continued success. This is about TANGIBLE reward. The reward is glory and seals, to get gear to do better at getting glory and seals. And after a long time of doing a whole bunch of PvP, you can get boons that are worthless in PvP. And, after you get enough glory and seals, you can donate your glory and seals to the stronghold (unless you are a lone wolf). The rewards for players at every level of PvP is quite sparse. Look what happened to PvP when you introduced a REWARD system in the Neverwinter Combat League that was MORE than just glory/seals to get gear to get more glory/seals! And look at how the PvP community has begged you to bring that back!!! Take the hint! Make better rewards. And dont make the rewards Bind to Character. Let the PvP community, if they so choose, GRIND out that Legend Mount and sell it. My god! That alone would BOOST PvP participation... Hell, I would go get whacked in PvP 100s of times to get that 1 win to get closer to a legend mount.
Thanks for reading.
Guild--And the Imaginary Friends
Like I mentioned before, balance the two effects (control/damage burst).
Prone, in general, is a nice mechanic in that it allows a different type of control (variety is good, cw icy rays is another example). The combat advantage + prone is nasty, exacerbated by the duration of said control effect. I believe GF also has that daily that prones you and goes through dodges/cc immunity.
I like the prone duration though. Therefore, possibly remove CA from certain powers or nerf it for pvp? I believe this has been mentioned in a post by @etelgrin.
GF is totally imballanced, mainly becuz tanks got survivability along with crazy damage and control. You either get control or damage or survavability.
in Mod 3 GWF's roar CONTROL got nurfed to iblivion therefour GWF could not realise their damage potential.
Thats the reason ive stopped playing GWF in mod 3+ and changed to DC.
Why cant GF get his control nurfed, fine leave the damage, remove the control and most prolly they wont be as effective as they are now .... simple thing to fix.
YOU DONT UNDERSTAND ONE THING.
BULLCHARGE IS PVP SKILL NOT PVE.
by removing prone control from bullscharge IT WILL NOT EFFECT pve community by any means.
show me ANY tank that uses bullscharge in PVE dungeon....
Rank 9 or rank 12 half defense half offence is not a huge gap by any means and easy enough to get rank 9/10.
4 artifacts takes some time true but 1 to mythic and rest orange is not that much to ask.
Pve gear instead of pvp gear closes the gear gap to pretty much even for all unless very new to the game.
Artifact weapon/gear is much easer now than before but is a must here you can't be to new to the game granting everybody access to fully refined artifact weapons is not a long stretch and would do tons to even out the field for new players.
Mounts + sigils need to be removed from pvp for many reasons gear gap just being one of them.
Sh boon has to go and enough reason to cover pages has been written already about that.
Campaign boons need to either automatically be granted to all that enter pvp or as written before diminish return on stats fix or removed as it creates a huge gap.
Trancsendent enchants in both armor and weapons is a factor that some wants to even out some do not I can see good arguments on both sides and leave this up for votes.
Let's not forget we only have ONE type of map - capture the node which in turn makes for very similar build among classes (not to mention that most classes only have one valid path to go down in pvp).
Steal the flag, hold the hill, death matches etc. etc. would create more diversity of what kind of build gear that is good for certain maps.
There are many good examples out there how some game made pvp fun and thriving and example has been giving like wow etc.
I think the devs are on the right track atm with player buffs instead of pvp armor, solo queue and private queue if they listen to not only the experianced but also the the majority of the playerbase am sure it can end rather good for NW pvp.
Some argue that Gf has to much damage or to much damage or to much defence or to much cc and some all the former but that is beside the point atm. It comes down to all classes as this is not about class balance right now.
CC deminish - going to effect all classes some more some less and class balance has to address that not the reverse!!
Arpen changes - being tested
Piercing changes - being tested
Player pvp buff being tested? or...
Lets test what we can do the best of that and ask for fixes and then other changes - class balance is NOT on the table so there is no winning to argue that class has to much of that and this class has to little of this on this thread imo..
On a side note: I can record some matches with BIS Gwfs and they should be careful of asking that Gf be nerfed in damage for trust me if it happens they WILL have to nerf end game Gwfs burst damage also :-)....
". Do you really want just BIS in PVP"
umm this thread is about opening up options for lower barriers to entry/ balance to pvp for there were many suggestions that counter most of your complaints.. where did anybody say they only want bis in pvp in fact many said the opposite
"Cryptic will not commit the resources to fix things over all SO Why nerf any class right now! Till they can address whole PVP class balance this is just crazy with these"
there you ask and answer your own question.. they need to make smaller changes first and the dev said more are on the table next mod had you read.... there is one dev trying to help us with this they are low on resources we will take what we can get.. this is a side effect of armor pen fixes and changes in pve as well
here you say its piercing the only threat to god players ...
"changes to Piercing you will eliminate the only threats to the God like Bis players which are the ones on this thread
here you contradict yourself
" the rest of the HRs just are not that big of a threat to the end game players."
so this adjustment would only effect a few end game hr s like you crying should balance be based one the few like you or the many ?? in most player eyes YOU are the god like player
what about the mid and low end hr we want to bring in new player right ? will the piecing as it is be balanced for low and mid ranged pvp i think NOT
"changes just end the class as a pvp option and the gear gap will even further widen because the BIG BIS with deep pockets will just stack Tenacity"
tenacity is on the table to be removed / given a base stat to all ... and you cant over stack it anyways . with the most stackable stat armor pen resist (~76%)being removed most player with the 50k hitpoint armor are around 68% at the moment just flat out wrong dude as deep as pockets are you cant just buy more tenacity
dude you need to read the entire thread and what the dev actually wrote before ranting nonsense
everybody is going to be more or less squishier next mod with the meta changing to extreme burst damage ...kill or be killed
you might not be doing as much perceing damage but alot of targets will be squishier as well
and if the meta of kyte fighting off nodes comes back then you have way more time at range to attack and clear some one off the node without even having to step on it or contest it ...where some classes will be force pinned on the node (no range no gap closers )..or the get off the node and face me or die game meta begins which we have not had for a while
most non ranged classes are squishier in the new meta with puts ranged at an advantage again to tease and taunt people to go off node... with less risk to you being restricted to fighting in a small space on node
that was an earlier pvp complaint/ meta problem less geared class with good attack power ranging and chipping away at health off node or up on the balconies at range ..anoying but effective sometimes
so even if piecing is halved at range you get in 2 or 3 more rotation to targets that cant reach you .. with reduced armor pen resistance now ... or go in to sacrifice yourself 2 v 1and kill one bis player and then be taken out by the second
so in short piecing needs to be nerfed as a side effect of changes
you dont seem to be complain that trs got piecing nerfed
so in summary
you just dont want it adjusted so you can kill a few high end pvp players that are like less then 1% of the population that you may have a personal vendetta with
the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few to quote spock
in the meantime just drink like 20 pvp potions to counter the nerf lol
the older the account is the less they get till its neutral after say a few months
say a buff for new pvp players on a new account with less boons/ resources etc
month 1 15% buff
month 2 10% buff
month 3 5% buff
month 4 neutral like everyone else
there is no way anyone could twink and unlock all boons in that time for it to debalance anything
and even if they did it would be month 4 back to normal
Much of what you write is not wrong in any way but in the perspective of making pvp for all it falls a bit short.
Piercing nullifies any kind of defence as it is and that negates all classes that want to build defence it just negates to much for to many classes.
As Kalina pointed out tenacity will be same for all and can not be stacked as it is said now.
If NW pvp are to move forward an overhaul is needed and removal of things like piercing ( 250k+exe is not fun nm how you put it) is one of the broken things that need to go as the mechanics do more harm then good.
CC diminish or some form of immunity after beeing cced is also needed, endless repel, smoke-smoke-smoke-smoke-CB-CB_CB or chains of cc until you die is just as boring as 250k exe.
Evertybody knows it is going to be a LOOOOONG road to fix NW pvp from todays missery but these steps now taken by the devs are indeed promising.
Myself I also play combat Hr and even if sacrificing piercing in pvp will nerf him to more or less unplayable I do understand that it is a something I have to live with if NW pvp are to move forward (and I do admit seing exe nerfed also helps a bit :-)....
Why cant we remove prone from bullcharge and make it a stun at least..... i dont see it to be very difficult thing.
For Boons perhaps the older campaigns can be bought in the zen store, perhaps charge more for it but make it an account wide unlock. I would pay 10k zen to have it unlocked on all my other toons.
The newer campaigns can be grinded out as normal, this will also really help newer players getting into pve and pvp content and will also help older players to make additional viable characters. nobody wants to grind out the same HAMSTER on 8 different characters if you've already done it on 1.
due a simple and obvious reason: GFs are meant to be TANKS and controllers to get the aggro, not Damage Dealers at all.
YOU DONT UNDERSTAND ONE THING.
BULLCHARGE IS PVP SKILL NOT PVE.
by removing prone control from bullscharge IT WILL NOT EFFECT pve community by any means.
show me ANY tank that uses bullscharge in PVE dungeon....
EXACTLY. Back in mod 3, GWF was way too imbalanced becuz of the control and crazy damage.
Why cant we remove prone from bullcharge and make it a stun at least..... i dont see it to be very difficult thing.
I agree that a gf's base damage is way too high, though I dont know if its just because of their synergy with CA that makes it so great. in MSVA I've seen a GF do almost 500M damage and the next highest DPS was around 250k - this was back when AA was still super AA - so yeah he was probably using knight's challenge. My point with this is that a support class should not be able to out DPS a dps class, you shouldnt have a dps class out tanking a tank class either, regardless of skill and gear. (in fact disregard this completely because atm I do feel that their damage is in a good place)
Bullcharge can be utilised as a PVE skill, the feat that grants the GF 10% bonus damage for 3 sec's after a control power is used - this feat debuffs the opponent, regardless of whether the control worked or not, eg. if you bull charge orcus, for 3 seconds your party can do 10% extra damage to him (someone please correct me if i'm wrong)
Making the prone a stun would be 1 thing, but you could still be 1 rotationed, bull charge immediately puts you at the face of your opponent, Bull charge stun > IS Prone would be quick and you're dead. So the stun mechanic wouldn't make any difference.
I hate calling for Nerf's to anything, nerfing ends up breaking other mechanics and that's not cool. The GF is one class that is completely viable no matter which path you choose to take so they really are in a good place right now. Perhaps what should be changed is the control resist mechanic in pvp (perhaps a change in how long any control is effective too?), so if you have a high enough control resist, BC and Griffon won't end up proning and stunning you but IS daily will, this will also help with the perma stuns, perma repels, perma rooted - will not be an issue any longer. yes you may be able to get controlled but the duration will be decreased so it wont be Courage breaker upon Courage breaker till you're controlled to death.
I agree that a gf's base damage is way too high, though I dont know if its just because of their synergy with CA that makes it so great. in MSVA I've seen a GF do almost 500M damage and the next highest DPS was around 250k - this was back when AA was still super AA - so yeah he was probably using knight's challenge. My point with this is that a support class should not be able to out DPS a dps class, you shouldnt have a dps class out tanking a tank class either, regardless of skill and gear. (in fact disregard this completely because atm I do feel that their damage is in a good place)
Bullcharge can be utilised as a PVE skill, the feat that grants the GF 10% bonus damage for 3 sec's after a control power is used - this feat debuffs the opponent, regardless of whether the control worked or not, eg. if you bull charge orcus, for 3 seconds your party can do 10% extra damage to him (someone please correct me if i'm wrong)
Making the prone a stun would be 1 thing, but you could still be 1 rotationed, bull charge immediately puts you at the face of your opponent, Bull charge stun > IS Prone would be quick and you're dead. So the stun mechanic wouldn't make any difference.
I hate calling for Nerf's to anything, nerfing ends up breaking other mechanics and that's not cool. The GF is one class that is completely viable no matter which path you choose to take so they really are in a good place right now. Perhaps what should be changed is the control resist mechanic in pvp (perhaps a change in how long any control is effective too?), so if you have a high enough control resist, BC and Griffon won't end up proning and stunning you but IS daily will, this will also help with the perma stuns, perma repels, perma rooted - will not be an issue any longer. yes you may be able to get controlled but the duration will be decreased so it wont be Courage breaker upon Courage breaker till you're controlled to death.