Tactician loadout doesn't mean you're a good tank

wizardlvl80

Hello guys!

TL;DR: Tactician feat loadout doesn't mean hamster if you don't have proper equipment, DR and playstyle. Don't you dare call yourself a tank.

I play two mains - HR and GF. Since the loadouts came to life (yay for easier dailies!) I noticed that many Conqueror GFs have Tactician loadouts and call themselves "tanks". Well, they're not.

Situation 1: I run MSP on my HR with a GF as a tank. He told me he's super, cool, experienced etc. I'm not that kind of guy who is checking equipment of people who run with him. So, the problem started when the tank started to die. The floor was covered with his body parts and dude was blaming DC for not keeping him alive (which he told was DC's main responsibility). So I checked him. He had no defense, pure offensive build BUT with tactician path. He had 45% DR, his companion was empty (no bondings, no items) and he said it's because he doesn't need anything else to tank. Well, the run became toxic, he blamed everyone, he couldn't keep aggro and wasn't a help to us after all. We kicked him after 2nd boss when he was yelling at whole team.

Situation 2: I run MSVA with my GF tank/tactician build. The other tank is a GF, fully Conqueror item setup, BUT again with Tactician loadout. He was spinning Storvald like a carousel, he was running away when he saw some big hit is comming and he was a pretty much hamster. Fortunately for the run - he died just before 1st wave of Manticores and I tanked it solo and we succeeded with the run. The other tank, when died, was spamming queue chat with how hamster I am and the team is. He said, he followed the build from a 14k tank, so I should keep my mouth shut. Again, guy had nothing boosting his defense (only lifesteal/deflect in def slots), no recovery and no proper weapon ench (he had Vorpal).


So, what's my point? I see too many GFs calling themselves tanks and ruining runs. It's like, okay if you want to go Elol, but MSVA, FBI or MSP requires some serious tanking and people actually rely on you as a tank. Don't cheat. Don't tell you're tank if you're equipped with items for pure DPS. If you have Air Achon as summoned companion, you're not debuffing anything.

Just because you have tactician feats it doesn't mean you can tell people you're a "buffer tank".

oria1

I agree with you and believe me, my friend, it's same with other classes too and it shows more with loadouts. How many CW "debuff" I see with vorpal/wheel/fire archon is insane. They think by switching to renegade mof they debuff, that's it, and they do it to get in parties easier, putting as you said, the run at risk or slowing it down a lot.


Voodoo - MoF debuffer
Atlantes - SW Temploc
Borland - GWF

rjc9000

Good MoF Renes won't be running a Vorpal/Lightning with a Fire Archon and Wheel.
A good power-share focused AC DC won't be running in Crit/ArmPen gear and using a Vorpal.

So on and so forth, but build includes gear as well.
Besides, people will be people. You can't really change the person behind the controller.

If you really wanted to be nagging about this, ask these Conquerors a question:

How many of these Conquerors graduated from a simple Protector/Tactician to a Conqueror? And how many went straight for Conqueror?

Because, if these GFs really did move on from a tank based start, then they should have the skills built up and were smart enough to keep their gear stashed away at a moment's notice for a defensive focused mindset.

Or, most likely, they could have been people jumping on the DPS GF hype train and don't understand how learning traditional tanking skills becomes a natural evolution to the DPS GF style.

---

By the way, there are some GFs on PC who can do it all at the same time: defend, DPS, buff, position, etc. But those GFs are exceedingly rare and most of them are longtime veterans who have more than 5-6 modules worth of GF experience under their belt.

darthpotater

Good tanks are rare... but this isnt new to loadouts.... is it?

And now this "DPS tanks" can faceroll Orcus too :P so their ego will grow O_o

dread4moor

> @wizardlvl80#5963 said:
> Hello guys!
>
> TL;DR: Tactician feat loadout doesn't mean hamster if you don't have proper equipment, DR and playstyle. Don't you dare call yourself a tank.
Just because you have tactician feats it doesn't mean you can tell people you're a "buffer tank".

Tank purist here.
Strong believer in our Prime Directive:
"All tanks must tank."
So I am sympathetic to your view, @wizardlvl80#5963 .
However...
"I played with two bad tactitian (n=2), therefore bad Tactician builds (specifically) are a major problem in the game."
Yeah... but... no. Not so much.
Bad build/play is not uniquely a Tactician GF problem.
As @rjc9000 implied, we see bad builds/play in every single class.
But when a DPS is built/played poorly, it doesn't result in everyone dying.
Bad tanks are just more visible, not more common.
"Tanks must tank" is a truism.
Thumbs up to the PSA reminder.
No one will disagree with that.
But let's not generalize about Tacticians.
You are making @rjc9000 's heart sad.

urabask

dread4moor said:

> @wizardlvl80#5963 said:

> Hello guys!

>

> TL;DR: Tactician feat loadout doesn't mean hamster if you don't have proper equipment, DR and playstyle. Don't you dare call yourself a tank.

Just because you have tactician feats it doesn't mean you can tell people you're a "buffer tank".



Tank purist here.

Strong believer in our Prime Directive:

"All tanks must tank."

So I am sympathetic to your view, @wizardlvl80#5963 .

However...

"I played with two bad tactitian (n=2), therefore bad Tactician builds (specifically) are a major problem in the game."

Yeah... but... no. Not so much.

Bad build/play is not uniquely a Tactician GF problem.

As @rjc9000 implied, we see bad builds/play in every single class.

But when a DPS is built/played poorly, it doesn't result in everyone dying.

Bad tanks are just more visible, not more common.

"Tanks must tank" is a truism.

Thumbs up to the PSA reminder.

No one will disagree with that.

But let's not generalize about Tacticians.

You are making @rjc9000 's heart sad.

I think what he's really implying is that most of GF's ability to tank comes from gear rather than paragon feats. Some people think they can just take a few protector feats and suddenly they're a tank. You don't really have the problem with DPS or healers because their feats really do make a big difference in their effectiveness at their role. e.g. there is a drastic difference in damage between going Renegade as a CW and going Thaum.

kemi1984

If an experienced and well build GF can tank and dish out damage at the same time, than more power to the player.

But if things go nasty one should just hide his DPS pride (lol), swap to a more tanky lodout and just carry on.

If someone thinks that a sole Tactican paragon will make a poorly build and geared GF a tank? well, not sure it's really a good topic for discussion.

sadus671

I would think really people should have a back pocket Protector Build vs. Tactician.

Tac feats are more about buffing vs. tanking.... (but maybe as the OP stated is what pug raids are asking for.. I dunno... I rarely group out of Guild/Alliance)

With the exception of maybe United and Surging Tide.

At least now that Iron Guard works... they'll gain significantly more survivability than Conqueror.

Now holding aggro.... that's another topic all together

Although, the population of players I think we are talking about.... have bigger problems than gear or build... as many have already mentioned... tanking much more about knowing how to tank (positioning, avoiding damage, and holding/keeping aggro).. vs gear and build.

Thankfully rjc9000 did cover some tanking 101 in his Tac guild which I hope, aspiring future tanks... actually read...

wizardlvl80

@rjc9000 Yes, I didn't meant just Tacticians but also Protector loadouts who are geared for DPS.

It's just that these two examples were guys who took Tactician loadout. I know there are people who can do tanking and dps with Conqueror path (or hybrid?). I'm aware of Bethel's amazing diplays with GF. But nonetheless, these are rare examples of people who seem to know everything about this class and how to utilise it to its very best.

@dread4moor You can also consider me a purist when it comes to tanking. I really like the Tactician path and I like to be useful for my party. I think that there is just enough dps in this game and we shouldn't try to put our heads in there when there's no need for more dps in Neverwinter.

boromir

I've put together a hybrid. Honestly I don't have a problem with people going tactician or protector and then utilizing armor and enchants that promote dps. Clerics and pallys are buffing our cooldowns. So a switch from ridiculous recovery numbers to a more useful power/crit increase only makes sense.

If you've got the feats, then you are going to be tanky enough already. It's like a conqueror spec that doesn't neglect defense and deflection. Damage resistance cap is easy to achieve, so people start to take advantage of the power creep. It only flows with item level increase, and I expect it of most GF's regardless of build these days.

Lastly, pure tanking by is boring. Valor plus ET and then stab away while marking the biggest bad guy. The FBI hill is the only place where I do this. Actually.......did this. Now I run ET and commander's strike on top of fray. Much easier to maintain threat and steel grace plus gladiators guile keeps me out of the red. Screw a bunch of enhanced mark.

And let us not forget that people still need to run dailies. And they usually run them solo.

mebengalsfan

First problem is the tank in your first run had no bonding an a DR of 45%. That right there is a big issue for anyone going into the latest content.

You can be a conqueror and tank content just fine, just like a protector or tactician. You just have to know what you are doing. The difference is I see many players a GF that DON'T TANK and decided loadouts will get them into group faster as they now can PRETEND to be an actual tank.

I did warn about the pally issue but it was not just pally issue, it was loadouts in general. Players are now dealing with what I call fake roles. Players setup character for 1 role and than use the loadout for another but quite a few players are capable of running more than one role, DPS or Buffer for example with CW.

I came from a game where you had two separate armor sets for your including weapons. Cost of getting to that was simply a grind and did not require at random 1% chance of something processing to make my gear go from Rank 8 to Rank 9, etc...

With loadouts now in play, if you really want to play two roles you need to invest time and money again into your character. IMO, not worth it. But if you plan your main build correctly and pick up items or mounts, etc... along the way you can be an OK off role player.

I will never expect my DC to be a DPS or my GF to be a DPS. Just like I will not expect my CW to be a pure on buffer, but all three can preform there off role but not to any great extreme.

If you want a buffer let me get on my DC and not on my CW. If you want a DPS don't ask me when I'm on my DC or GF, let me get on my CW. That is how I plan to play this game.

But if someone like, hey we don't need your DC or GF but we would like some additional buffs, I have one additional loadout on my CW setup just for that, but like I stated above, I know my CW will not perform to the same level as my DC for buffing, especially now with loadouts and how I am setting up each character.

If a player does invest extra $$$ into the character off role, than yes you can find some players who can be full on buffer or DPS as a CW.