Orcus Nerf Bad

lantern22

Orcus used to be unique - didn't move but at least hit hard. Now it's too easy.

I just ran CN with my GF, running my Conqueror loadout and I didn't even have to block any of Orcus' attacks. Not one. Barely even had to use Fighters Recovery. I'm 11.7K and not fully optimised.

Orcus used to be fun, took some skill and timing. Now he is pathetic - a longer, more boring end boss.

Please undo this.

rickcase276

It is because you are way over the current ilevel for the dungeon, as it is now 7k ilevel for private and I think around 9k for public. 2-4k ilevel makes a lot of difference. A 7k ilevel GF would have a lot of difficulties with Orcus, so that is what they now have his damage geared towards.

lantern22

I know I am way over the "minimum" gear score / Ilevel you need to enter Castle Never.

When did the definition of minimum gear score mean that was what you had to be for a Dungeon to be challenging? I thought it was supposed to be what you needed to be to have a chance at finishing it.

If I can just stand there and not even need to block, the nerf is too much. There is nothing else to that end boss other than the hard hits, he doesn't move, there are no adds . . . . I guess you could consider the death spheres as something but when they are more of a challenge than the main boss itself, well something is wrong.

and making a boss fight go for longer, doesn't make it more interesting

Just make a baby version of the Castle - replace Orcus with an imp or something, call it Castle Easy

anyway just my feedback, still plenty to like in the game

thefabricant

Agreed. Orcus nerf was way overkill, I liked him the way he used to be, not the way he is now.

strathkin

Well I admit some of his hits before could one shot or very soon afterward take out a Paladin or Guardian Fighter even with a gear score of 12k quite easily so clearly his hits were excessive... even for a 7-9k dungeon! Previously even some tanks with even higher GS almost 13k depending what FEAT & Paragon's chosen could have challenges with him.

I think the nerf to some of his bigger hits was likely in part necessary! It could be true perhaps they could have overdone the nerf a little but it certainly shouldn't go back to anywhere close to where it was.

Still I'm not sure how I feel about giving him a lot more HP to make the fight drag out that much more.

namelesshero347

Orcus damage is like a third of what it used to be. One hit used to fill my AP. Now it takes around four hits. For public queue, any tank that can get in should be able to comfortably handle it.

Worst, the fight is so long and boring now. Without a few 13K+ DPS and good buffs, ZZZZZzzzz....

tigross

Suggestion, why don't you just make a master version of CN?So we can enjoy it again. Cause now it's boring.

jaime4312

tigross said:

Suggestion, why don't you just make a master version of CN?So we can enjoy it again. Cause now it's boring.

That's what I was going to say when scrolling down the comments but you saved me that up.
Devs should make another CN in which Orcus has his former damage output. I guess that (judging for your feedback, including that of Sharp), out of the nerfs that have happened since mid - late last year up to now, Orcus' is a pretty savage one in comparison and therefore should be looked at.

santralafax

CN, when it came out, was supposed to be a hard dungeon. I guess that's not the case anymore. That leaves those of us wanting difficult content with FBI and MSP.

urabask

santralafax said:

CN, when it came out, was supposed to be a hard dungeon. I guess that's not the case anymore. That leaves those of us wanting difficult content with FBI and MSP.

CN has never really had a chance to be difficult though. When it launched we had bugged SW, un-nerfed ITF, pre-"fix" bonding runestones (which technically could be as good if not better), and un-nerfed AA. By the time all of that was nerfed or "fixed" we had bugged AA and "fixed" bonding runestones. By the time they nerfed AA DPS had relic weapons. Now they've nerfed CN and it really doesn't make a difference since all it does is make it a bit more accessible to the people that still find it difficult. Everyone that was cakewalking through it before won't notice a difference anyways.

For all everyone complains about CN being easy it's probably the most played dungeon after elol. If anything we need fewer dungeons like MSP and FBI and more dungeons like CN.

lantern22

My issue is not so much with CN being made easier, but more about how easy it is.

After sitting there letting Orcus hit me with my Conq build, and not wanting to run CN anymore. I decided to try mSP for a challenge. I got owned big time at the 2nd boss and was told that my Defence was nowhere near high enough (and I was using my Buff/Tank build so I had more defence then when I was in CN). Just seems now like difference between CN and mSP is huge.

Perhaps what I need to do, is get over my stubbornness about fishing, Everfrost Resistance etc. and give FBI a go. Hopefully that is somewhere between CN and mSP and more suitable for my gear/ability.

Or rework my Tank build and get back on the horse and into mSP

tbh - having not run FBI and staying in CN for the last 12 months or so has probably made me lazy. Maybe this is the foot in the bum that I needed

spideymt

lantern22 said:

I decided to try mSP for a challenge. I got owned big time at the 2nd boss and was told that my Defence was nowhere near high enough (and I was using my Buff/Tank build so I had more defence then when I was in CN).

Thats not true. You dont need that much def. Only if the group got to less dps or is unablde to play his tactic this boss gets his lill "enrage" modus. But FBI isnt easier. Trash can be a pain in the...
BTT:
Orcus nerf was to much. You dont need a tank anymore. Thats kinda boring.

armadeonx

What's his damage output now? It used to be around 800-900k pre-mitigation.

santralafax

urabask said:

santralafax said:

CN, when it came out, was supposed to be a hard dungeon. I guess that's not the case anymore. That leaves those of us wanting difficult content with FBI and MSP.

CN has never really had a chance to be difficult though. When it launched we had bugged SW, un-nerfed ITF, pre-"fix" bonding runestones (which technically could be as good if not better), and un-nerfed AA. By the time all of that was nerfed or "fixed" we had bugged AA and "fixed" bonding runestones. By the time they nerfed AA DPS had relic weapons. Now they've nerfed CN and it really doesn't make a difference since all it does is make it a bit more accessible to the people that still find it difficult. Everyone that was cakewalking through it before won't notice a difference anyways.

For all everyone complains about CN being easy it's probably the most played dungeon after elol. If anything we need fewer dungeons like MSP and FBI and more dungeons like CN.

I'd like something in between: difficult but not so time consuming as FBI and MSP. That's why I rue the fact they made CN even easier. CN was not nearly so difficult as when it came out, but it was a bridge between the T2's and the more difficult content.

mamalion1234

tigross said:

Suggestion, why don't you just make a master version of CN?So we can enjoy it again. Cause now it's boring.

tigross said:

Suggestion, why don't you just make a master version of CN?So we can enjoy it again. Cause now it's boring.

tigross said:

Suggestion, why don't you just make a master version of CN?So we can enjoy it again. Cause now it's boring.

IF cn is boring do sp or fbi.

demolitioninc

CN was not issue even with groups between IL 2500-2800, if the tank and the healer knew what they were doing. For these groups it got even harder I think because of the HP increase, instead of 3-4 min, they now need 10 minutes to kill him, more time in which stuff can go wrong. If I see Orcus now and the GF doesn't even raise the shield in 5 minutes, that's BS. Orucs always was the top T2 dungeon, I would sy eCC and eGWD final bosses are harder now then Orcus (my gut feeling) because the fight mechanics need more thinking. I agree, please make a master version of Orcus, get pre-Nerf Orcus back but also increase his HP. That would be fun.

dread4moor

Yes, too easy.
Use to be the litmus test for tanking skill.

They fixed GF Protector capstone same time as neutering Orcus.
With 4 Stacks of Iron Guard and decent DR, turn around and let him give you a nice back massage.
Very relaxing.

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kreatyve

I ran it today with some people in my alliance. Didn't die a single time. Stood in basically 1 place the whole Orcus fight. His wand of death is now wand of tickles.

dupeks

With any amount of damage mitigation/heals, the entire party can entirely ignore orcus (balls and all) and just button mash. The fight now scales pretty linearly with how much DPS you have, with a pretty low and uninteresting threshold of survival.

If the intent was to get folks to engage with the mechanics, it's kind of a flop. Now we're not even afraid of balls.

pitshade

My 12k GWF was able to stand in two death spheres and just whack away at Orcus, no issues. I understand why the Devs may have done this, but it really heightens the need for content between the T2s/CN and FBI/MSP.

rickcase276

It also could be that they wanted to make CN more casual friendly again, that could be another reason for the nerf. As we all know, there are more casual players playing the game than hardcore/bis players. So it will allow those that are either not over-geared or not "best" builds to also be able to run the dungeon. But true maybe they should make a second master version of the dungeon for those that are finding CN too easy now.

asterotg

rickcase276 said:

It also could be that they wanted to make CN more casual friendly again, that could be another reason for the nerf. As we all know, there are more casual players playing the game than hardcore/bis players. So it will allow those that are either not over-geared or not "best" builds to also be able to run the dungeon. But true maybe they should make a second master version of the dungeon for those that are finding CN too easy now.

This might have been the intend, but it will backfire. I PuGed CN a few days ago on my CW. For PuG runs I use a SS Thraum build. The fight felt, like it took ages, with my 16k CW, who did ca. 75% of all the dmg in the run. Now subtract an 16k CW and add a DD with min IL. The fight is still easy, but you might want to take a break after 15 minutes of trying to kill Orkus.

spideymt

Dear Zeatrax,

i think you never learned what orcus made and when he makes it. We need dungeons where are tanks needed. Do you need a tank in CN till that "fix"? So...great job...another dungeon where is no tank needed.

zeatrex

Orcus has been fixed now, it was never intended for him to do over 400,000+ damage in a single attack. I'm guessing you guys have been 11,000+ item level for too long and think you the only ones that play this game at all. Remember there were people that were just the item level limit trying to do Orcus. My Guardian Fighter was only 9,200 item level back then (much higher now) and it was frustration as heck to fight Orcus. Most of the time I was kicked from the match after doing the whole thing with no problems simply because I couldn't do my job which was tanking it. It wasn't because I was a bad tank, it was because this thing would freaking close to 1 hit kill me no matter what powers/set I use with EVERY SINGLE MELEE attack. You sit there and talk this stuff about how bad the nerf was being an over 11,000+ item level tank player, wow how easy your life is now that you getting pretty overpowered, right?

I bet on that same tank you on back when it was below 9,500 item level, you would go in there with full HDPS and OP friends to kill Orucs in seconds. But the fact of the matter is that not everyone has friends to party with, not everyone has a guild they wish to join to do runs with. There are people that like to play the game and be able to do their job, but a boss that does over 400,000+ damage in EVERY SINGLE ATTACK is just ridiculous. See, cause you are here thinking about how lame it is now that you are overpowered to even be in there, but you do not think of the rest of the lower geared players out there. It's always about you, you, you, YOU!

The heck you even in Castle Never at 11,000+ to begin with?.. You want a challenge, get yourself into FBI then. This game isn't about you, it is about everybody that plays it. Orcus needed a HUGE nerf on his damage, it was just far too much and it was obviously something that wasn't even intended, it took a while to get it fixed but finally it is. I remember back before the nerf I had to sit at Castle Never not on my tank but on any class I am playing on waiting for a high item level tank to come in, or a DC/CW/SW/HR that could solo Orcus, it was freaking annoying. There were times I spent in there well over 5 hours because all the players that would jump in would be too low. I'm glad for the nerf, finally people who are on par with the item level of the dungeon can do their job.

Stop thinking of yourselves when your item level is so high, everything will be easy at some point and it seems that it is starting to be regardless. Stop thinking about you, think about the others in the game that haven't yet reached it, thank you. You want a real challenge? Well drop your high geared character and create a new one, or strip your character of all its gear so you get one shotted by everything, there's your challenege. When you find yourself over 5 hours in the same instance in a single day, you wouldn't be thinking all that stuff. On top of that, no boss in the game 1 hit kills with EVERY SINGLE ATTACK like Orcus does. I can understand in ONE attack which might 1 hit kill like in Cragmire Crypt (Master) where the pirate boss guy tosses his bomb and the explosion would 1 hit kill almost everyone in the radius... But every single melee attack doing well over 1 hit killing damage?... That's just damn stupid.

If I am up to gear, I want to get in there, do my job and GTFO, period.

@spideymt
Tanks are always needed, I know very well this fact for my main is a Guardian Fighter tank, and I even have a Paladin tank also, so that is two tanks. The fastest queues that pop are when I am on my tank, so I have no idea where you getting "tanks aren't needed". Tanks weren't even needed back when Orucs did crazy damage since almost any DC/SW/CW/HR could solo Orcus anyway, so I don't know what you are going on about. That single GWF running with you in The Temple Of The Spider (Master) who is well over 14,000+ item level, yeah sure he runs though the whole thing in seconds... But when the boss fight comes, they can't solo the boss without a tank, I seen it and I been there. I can understand that tanks are needed, but not only overpowered high gear tanks. Where do you leave the just over the item level tanks at?.. So to you the tanks that are "needed" got to be over 11,000? Boy please, don't come over here with that mess.

Two tanks, right here buddy.

thefabricant

zeatrex said:

Orcus has been fixed now, it was never intended for him to do over 400,000+ damage in a single attack. I'm guessing you guys have been 11,000+ item level for too long and think you the only ones that play this game at all. Remember there were people that were just the item level limit trying to do Orcus. My Guardian Fighter was only 9,200 item level back then (much higher now) and it was frustration as heck to fight Orcus. Most of the time I was kicked from the match after doing the whole thing with no problems simply because I couldn't do my job which was tanking it. It wasn't because I was a bad tank, it was because this thing would freaking close to 1 hit kill me no matter what powers/set I use with EVERY SINGLE MELEE attack. You sit there and talk this stuff about how bad the nerf was being an over 11,000+ item level tank player, wow how easy your life is now that you getting pretty overpowered, right?

I bet on that same tank you on back when it was below 9,500 item level, you would go in there with full HDPS and OP friends to kill Orucs in seconds. But the fact of the matter is that not everyone has friends to party with, not everyone has a guild they wish to join to do runs with. There are people that like to play the game and be able to do their job, but a boss that does over 400,000+ damage in EVERY SINGLE ATTACK is just ridiculous. See, cause you are here thinking about how lame it is now that you are overpowered to even be in there, but you do not think of the rest of the lower geared players out there. It's always about you, you, you, YOU!

The heck you even in Castle Never at 11,000+ to begin with?.. You want a challenge, get yourself into FBI then. This game isn't about you, it is about everybody that plays it. Orcus needed a HUGE nerf on his damage, it was just far too much and it was obviously something that wasn't even intended, it took a while to get it fixed but finally it is. I remember back before the nerf I had to sit at Castle Never not on my tank but on any class I am playing on waiting for a high item level tank to come in, or a DC/CW/SW/HR that could solo Orcus, it was freaking annoying. There were times I spent in there well over 5 hours because all the players that would jump in would be too low. I'm glad for the nerf, finally people who are on par with the item level of the dungeon can do their job.

Stop thinking of yourselves when your item level is so high, everything will be easy at some point and it seems that it is starting to be regardless. Stop thinking about you, think about the others in the game that haven't yet reached it, thank you. You want a real challenge? Well drop your high geared character and create a new one, or strip your character of all its gear so you get one shotted by everything, there's your challenege. When you find yourself over 5 hours in the same instance in a single day, you wouldn't be thinking all that stuff. On top of that, no boss in the game 1 hit kills with EVERY SINGLE ATTACK like Orcus does. I can understand in ONE attack which might 1 hit kill like in Cragmire Crypt (Master) where the pirate boss guy tosses his bomb and the explosion would 1 hit kill almost everyone in the radius... But every single melee attack doing well over 1 hit killing damage?... That's just damn stupid.

If I am up to gear, I want to get in there, do my job and GTFO, period.

@spideymt
Tanks are always needed, I know very well this fact for my main is a Guardian Fighter tank, and I even have a Paladin tank also, so that is two tanks. The fastest queues that pop are when I am on my tank, so I have no idea where you getting "tanks aren't needed". Tanks weren't even needed back when Orucs did crazy damage since almost any DC/SW/CW/HR could solo Orcus anyway, so I don't know what you are going on about. That single GWF running with you in The Temple Of The Spider (Master) who is well over 14,000+ item level, yeah sure he runs though the whole thing in seconds... But when the boss fight comes, they can't solo the boss without a tank, I seen it and I been there. I can understand that tanks are needed, but not only overpowered high gear tanks. Where do you leave the just over the item level tanks at?.. So to you the tanks that are "needed" got to be over 11,000? Boy please, don't come over here with that mess.

Two tanks, right here buddy.

@zeatrex before the orcus nerf I, on occasion pug queued with a 2k OP, who had no bonding pet and had an augment with no gear on it. They could tank orcus. For reference, I was on DC and I deliberately did not use Anointed Army (at the time it was broken and granted immunity). The point being, it was possible to tank Orcus at the minimum requirement, on a character that was legitimately at the minimum requirement. Orcus did not need a nerf, it was a skill check for tanks, "can you tank this boss?" When you could tank it, you knew you were ready to move on to harder content.

As far as soloing stuff, I am pretty sure we are close to the point we will see FBI solos, in fact, I know some people who have already done it.

heartbrake

@thefabricant
@darthpotater
i have to agree with zeatrex, the only way a op/gf tank could hold out at a low item level against orcus is with a dc or paly healing them only, more preferred a dc though. each hit would bring the paly/gf down to around 10% or lower, only save point for the paly/gf would be when orcus turned around and slapped a tanking pet that was probably around. if no tanking pet was around orcus then the gf/paly would more likely die on the second melee hit if the dc/paly healer didnt focus their heals on them quickly. i believe whatever paly/gf you saw "tanking" orcus was pretty much getting immunity from astro shield divine x3 empowered abilities or a paly healer that was a high item level which just one cure wounds right/left click would instantly heal him completely. other then that, no a low item level tank which was just about the required item level, not even 9.5k tanks could tank orcus unless they had a real good dc/paly healer in the party.

spideymt

zeatrex said:

you didn't even need a tank back then to kill him since DC/SW/CW/HR could solo him either way.

GWFs did orcus too solo. Just let you know. GFs also did orcus solo before we got this "fix". Check YT "Neverwinter Orcus solo". You will find some vids from GFs like bethel or an really old one from Lazalia and his GWF.
And sry...but sharp didnt say anything wrong. You dont need that attitude.
I still think there was no need to "fix" orcus that way. It was a skill check. We need bosses where you need at least a bit of skill. Now no skill needed anymore at orcus. He is just tickeling. This cant be the right way in NW.

spideymt

....deleted..i think i made my point in the post before that.

thefabricant

zeatrex said:

@thefabricant
Sorry, but I call BS on you all the way, I could some what believe you if you said a GF, but an OP?.. Anyone who believes what you said must be smoking. Only way they could tank Orcus was with a DC that knew how to ADC being a DC that made the party immune at close range, because without it that whatever tank you talking about would of been dead. Please don't come over here with non-sense as if I do not play this game, I have every single class, DC, SW, Paladin Healer/Tank, GF, TR, HR - I seen it all okay, you aren't going to come in here with BS. Orcus would do 400,000+ damage, do you know what 400,000 is?.. Do I have to spell it out for you? Okay then - Four Hundred Thousand, do you understand now? This is 400,000 that is x3 the amount of HP that even 12,000 item level tanks would have. And you going to come over here and tell me that a tank with probably 101,000 HP can tank 400,000 damage back to back?... Not even your mother would believe that. Higher Item level tanks would have far more resistance of course so they could manage it all. I know this for a fact because I would see the numbers as I would block the attacks, and this is a BLOCKED attack which supposedly I am resisting 80% of the original damage, I'm not even mentioning when Orcus slams a critical.

I am not going to explain to you how to play OP, or how a DC could at the time, without using AA, reduce the bosses damage down to a manageable level. If you intend to do a dungeon at the minimum requirement, you should expect to have to work with other players to achieve your goal. And no, my rotation on DC did not include astral shield, it was bastion, bts and divine glow.