Tested: Protector Capstone "Iron Guard"

dread4moor

<code><img src="http://imgur.com/3laIH3R "></code>
Background:
The GF Protector capstone "Iron Guard" has never worked.
Despite the tooltip, the damage debuff did not stack.
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/558320/gf-bug-protector-tree-cap-stone-iron-guard
Already lacking the DPS ability of Conquerors or the extra buffing capacity of Tacticians, the broken Iron Guard condemned Protectors to be the least useful tank build.
https://forum.arcgames.com/neverwinter/discussion/1230763/when-protector-path-is-useful#latest

The developers recently announced a fix to this broken feat.
https://forum.arcgames.com/neverwinter/discussion/comment/12960459#Comment_12960459

Objective:
We tested the fix to confirm if it is or is not working as intended (WAI).

Methods:
We Stripped a Protector GF of all equipment, mounts and companions:
http://imgur.com/XckjOZT

Respecced to Protector IV with no boons, just enough feats to achieve Iron Guard. Avoided all damage-reduction feats:
http://imgur.com/3SYVHLl

Isolated single mob with fixed range damage (Lizardman Darter):
http://imgur.com/mSnXSSp
Recorded 10 spawn rounds of 20-hits, each round with 0-4 stacks of Iron Guard.

Results:
http://imgur.com/a/cQAfr
In all 10×4 stacked rounds Iron Guard reduced the mob damage.
The average damage reduction was approximately 5% per stack.

Conclusion:
Iron Guard capstone appears to be WAI.

Discussion:
It may be time to take a second look at the utility of the Protector. A whole-party damage reduction of up to 20% could make the Protector actually live up to it's name. Further testing in other environments is needed.

Edit:
Repeated the test with more strict controls.
Empty instance, no campfire effects, excluded critical , combat advantage and deflection hits from data.
The results table is the average of all 150 hits parsed by fixed damage/stacks.

Edit Edit:
Almost forgot- public praise and thanks to @michela123 and @rjc9000 for test control guidance (which we failed to emulate to perfection).

dupeks

Great work! You already know about this thread, but it's a good reference for others:

https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1228140/pve-debuffs-that-reduce-enemys-damage

Regarding the detailed math, you said "approximately 5% per stack" is it possible that each reduction is being applied separately (as some other powers work)

So it might not work like (5% + 5% + 5% + 5%) = 20% damage reduction

It might work like (0.95 * 0.95 * 0.95 * 0.95) = 0.81450625 ~ ~>18.6% damage reduction

Per michaela's testing, enemy damage debuffs tend to be applied independently. So if you have 2 separate debuffs of 20%, it's not 20% * 2 = 40% damage reduction, but (.8 * .8) = 0.64 ~~> 36% damage reduction

Would be cool to know which was the Iron Guard capstone works (if each 5% is additive, or applied independently)

Basically, you can't use damage reduction to reduce damage to zero, and the more enemy damage debuffs are already active, the less practical benefit from adding additional enemy damage debuffs. (kind of a similar problem as power, crit sev, etc.)

dread4moor

> @dupeks said:

>
> Per michaela's testing, enemy damage debuffs tend to be applied independently. So if you have 2 separate debuffs of 20%, it's not 20% * 2 = 40% damage reduction, but (.8 * .8) = 0.64 ~~> 36% damage reduction
>
> Would be cool to know which was the Iron Guard capstone works (if each 5% is additive, or applied independently)
>
> Basically, you can't use damage reduction to reduce damage to zero, and the more enemy damage debuffs are already active, the less practical benefit from adding additional enemy damage debuffs. (kind of a similar problem as power, crit sev, etc.)

Thanks.
Glad you mentioned this.
Full disclosure: We got very suspicious when the fourth stack ave was actually slightly ABOVE 20% of baseline.
If independent that would be impossible.

We are experienced players but not experienced theorycrafters. It is entirely probable we overlooked some confounding variable.
For example, the 0 stack was less then base damage. So we must have missed something.

Openly encourage any tank aficionados with a more refined testing method to give constructive criticism.

At least one thing is certain proven by this test: it IS stacking. Hallelujah.

dupeks

I played with your data a little bit. See below:

There are 3 types of hits across your 20 observations

	base	0 stacks	1 stacks	2 stacks	3 stacks	4 stacks
low hit	242	239	227	215	203	191
mid hit	245	243	231	219	207	194
high hit	254	251	238	226	213	201
% compared	low hit	98.76%	94.98%	94.71%	94.42%	94.09%
vs previous	mid hit	99.18%	95.06%	94.81%	94.52%	93.72%
does not appear to work	high hit	98.82%	94.82%	94.96%	94.25%	94.37%
% compared	low hit	98.76%	93.80%	88.84%	83.88%	78.93%
vs base	mid hit	99.18%	94.29%	89.39%	84.49%	79.18%
does not appear to work	high hit	98.82%	93.70%	88.98%	83.86%	79.13%
% stacks	low hit		94.98%	89.96%	84.94%	79.92%
vs 0 stacks	mid hit		95.06%	90.12%	85.19%	79.84%
appears to work	high hit		94.82%	90.04%	84.86%	80.08%
Rounded average
0 stacks vs. base		99%
stacks vs. 0 stacks			95%	90%	85%	80%

Hypothesis:
Somehow from the base condition to the 0 stack condition you got a 1% damage reduction applied. But from the 0 stack condition to the 4 stack condition, the feat appears to work additively. (1/2/3/4 stacks worth 5%/10%/15%/20%). So, not applied independently like I suggested before.

Possible at all you had campfire buff when testing stacks, but not in base? Or some other GF feat (not that familiar even though I dabble)

dread4moor

Yes. Also, several toons passed by us in the 3+hours we were testing, so there were a few auras and powers in the area.
Next time will switch to an empty instance.

Very troubled. Additive does not make sense. Will try again tomorrow in empty instance.
Still, stacking is happening. So minor victory.

dupeks

dread4moor said:

Yes. Also, several toons passed by us in the 3+hours we were testing, so there were a few auras and powers in the area.

Next time will switch to an empty instance.



Very troubled. Additive does not make sense. Will try again tomorrow in empty instance.

Still, stacking is happening. So minor victory.

To clarify, additive performs better than individual.

It's (5% + 5% + 5% + 5%) = 20% mitigation from Iron Guard

Otherwise it would be 100% - (95% * 95% * 95% * 95%) = 100% - 81.45% = 18.55% mitigation from Iron Guard.

So you should be pleased, if anything hehe.So it works better than it could have, but perhaps not as consistently as other powers. Not something I would be upset over imo

dread4moor

Tried the above Iron Guard test again with much stricter controls (see addendum to post above and new results excel table).
@dupeks was correct. Upon reviewing the video and the ACT we found many nearby confounders... including a aura-farting OP who wouldn't go away.

We corrected many control errors and repeated the test.

But 0 stacks was still 1% less then base damage. Can't figure that one out, but we decided not to sweat it.

When we remove all the background buffs, maybe we see a more multipicative effect (slightly less then 20%) then an additive?
Like the Mikeala/chemodan formula?
Final damage = Base damage * (1-Debuff1) * (1-Debuff2) * (1-Debuff3)* (1-Debuff4)

Either way, it doesn't really alter the most important conclusion for us working grunts:
Iron Guard is working and it does stack.