[PC] PvE New ReneMof need a bit of help to understand...

david

Hi there,

with the loadouts up, I just made a Renemof with the exactly same gear I have on my 13k ReneSS, (why not xd)

It is Rene Thaum (spell twisting).

Using it now for a couple of weeks, im runing SoD and CA , FtF, IT, RoF, ST....the usuall

In my short experience, I notice everytime I use furious inmolation either the mobs or the boss take a real big hit of HP within the following seconds, if not melted completely, by my team mates, that are taking great advantage of such..debuff.

My quesiotn is if I can have the same result with other skills, Im trying always to combine the smolder and cold damage but I never have the same reult with just encounters and at wills.

May be I do not make a proper encounter/ at will rotation...any advice on this is very wellcome.

David

pitshade

Google sharpedge CW guide. I can't explain it better or link to it.

theraxin

CA gives 24% damage resistance debuff upon using daily, what is impossible to be reproduced with only encounters and at-will. But some advice, what can fit into your SS rene build too.

Ray of enfeeblement on tab when on bosses (don't know if you are already doing it).

On mobs, you might be considering using Crit conflag instead CA if your AP fills up too slow to reliably spread smolder.

if you want to empower your CA, buying Embellished apparatus of gond for 15% AP upon using daily. A very expensive other choice is flail snail (legacy) or coastal flail snail, what gives 25% AP.

If you hate yourself enough, you can farm up enough companion gear from Illusionist's Gambit for Sellsword as summoned companion (which is atm the most suitable for DPS build too) what gives 10% defense debuff to mobs on hit.

david

Hi guys, thanks all for your fast replies.

Yes, I am doing all that already (my build is sharpedges guide based, on bosses RoE on tab, using apparatus of gond...) . Not the sellsword though, I am fine with the paranoid and all 3 pieces of loyal avenger on it, cant see a way to gear a different companion, you guys understand.

Of course I plan to increase my AP gain, farming river weapons atm and when I got them ill put offhand stat AP bonus, and also planning to swich one artifact with one with AP.

Thas is the route I already know, obviously spamming FI is in what I am working on right now.

But my concern is trying to understand why the monsters suffer too much from FI.
24% debuff is not that big number for the results I see, other buffs like my own chaos, or gf's ITF, and many others provides higher boost on paper, but none of them produces such devastating effect.
So I'm prety sure there is something hidden/unkonwn (for me) within the FI performance, and I try to know what is it and if can be produced using other skills/powers.

This reminds me the condemning gaze feat from righteous DCs, how it used to work in the past, if any of you knows what I mean

David

pitshade

Dailies that don't add chill proc one debuff and then adding chill procs the other.

theraxin

Actually, in an oversimplistic example, you can see why the debuff are so prevalent.

Let's say that some mob is on 40% DR and your team deals 100 damage.

Normally, you all would deal 60% of your damage, 60.

If you increase your damage with 24%, it's 100+1,24% = 124, but then it goes down into 124*06= 74,4

if you decrease the mobs defence by 24%, it's DR becomes 16%, so you'd deal 84% of your damage into it.

100*0,84 = 84

As you can see, the DR debuff is more direct than damage increase, so more effective.

Of course, a realistic situation is much more complex, hidden factors, caps, mins and stuff. But basically, the deal is that DRr reduction is more effective than damage increase, so that 24% is much more than giving the team 24% buff (with like Chaos magicy stuff I know it's 30%, just an example).

metalicum1

If you want to play MoF Rene support, you should learn how to stack smolder and keep up all the DR debuffs with Combustive Action and double swath of Destruction.
I would personally not play this build right now. The current meta does not allow such wizard to be part of endgame groups. Absolute majority of this build's utility comes from the DR debuff, which on bosses is almost hitting (or hitting) the cap on its own. The problem is that in absolute majority of groups, this is not necessary as there are plenty of other DR debuffs from other support players (OP, GF, DC). Usually, you effort is futile because of the DR debuff hard cap.

see this debuffs list
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1N8Y_AmqnnhOdaCT2Sg9e-OcC0m6q5nUJLfujZVsI1Z0/edit#gid=0

If you want to play the build anyway, you need to apply smolder at the beginning by Oppressive Force, and then apply chill to get double smolder stack (test it on your platform, experiences how to apply this so that you don't overwrite your smolder varies, though you always need to apply smoulder by daily, that's the key)

david

@theraxin , ty for the info, yes i know uncapped debuffs are better than damage buffs. However, ray of enfleebement on tab also gives such great debuff on paper, but the results are not the same than with FI.

@metalicum1 , ty vm for this information, although im afraid I dont understad very well, my experience with renemof is very limited. I do not know how to stack smolder, ...double swarth of destruction? A more detailed explanation of the rotation, and what is produced on each step, would be very appreciated, thank you....."..you dont overwrite your smolder varies"...no idea of what this means, ty for feedback

metalicum1

david#2060 said:

@theraxin , ty for the info, yes i know uncapped debuffs are better than damage buffs. However, ray of enfleebement on tab also gives such great debuff on paper, but the results are not the same than with FI.

@metalicum1 , ty vm for this information, although im afraid I dont understad very well, my experience with renemof is very limited. I do not know how to stack smolder, ...double swarth of destruction? A more detailed explanation of the rotation, and what is produced on each step, would be very appreciated, thank you....."..you dont overwrite your smolder varies"...no idea of what this means, ty for feedback

I will try to explain it step by step.
1. Swath of destruction gives 20% DR debuff (4 points into it of course) when a mob has smolder.
2. Smolder has 2 forms in the game: smolder and rimfire. what happens 99% of the time (everytime you don't do the following) is that smolder is transformed into rimfire (that blue flame) when you apply chill effect on a mob that has smolder.
3. both smolder and rimfire works identically in regards to Swath of destruction -> 20% DR debuff.
4. Now, Combustive action gives mobs 24% DR debuff. But it also makes your daily to apply smolder.
5. When you apply smolder using daily and then apply chill, you can smolder and rimfire at the same time. you literally see both the normal flame and the blue flame. The result of this is that your Swath of Destruction debuff procs twice = 40% DR debuff (plus 24% from CA, that's 64% just from Class Features), however...
6. You must test on your platform how to achieve this. PC players report that in order to do this, you need to hit with daily first (which doe snot apply chill, like Oppressive Force), then to hit with non-chill non-smolder encounter, like Fanning the Flame off(!!!) spell mastery, and than apply chill.
7. some other players report different stuff, also Icy Veins is problematic because it seems to overwrite your smolder.
8. In order to keep both smolder and rimfire up, you need to refresher them separately, Smolder by Scorching Burst, and Rimfire by a chill effect.

trzebiat

metalicum1 said:

david#2060 said:

@theraxin , ty for the info, yes i know uncapped debuffs are better than damage buffs. However, ray of enfleebement on tab also gives such great debuff on paper, but the results are not the same than with FI.

@metalicum1 , ty vm for this information, although im afraid I dont understad very well, my experience with renemof is very limited. I do not know how to stack smolder, ...double swarth of destruction? A more detailed explanation of the rotation, and what is produced on each step, would be very appreciated, thank you....."..you dont overwrite your smolder varies"...no idea of what this means, ty for feedback

I will try to explain it step by step.
1. Swath of destruction gives 20% DR debuff (4 points into it of course) when a mob has smolder.
2. Smolder has 2 forms in the game: smolder and rimfire. what happens 99% of the time (everytime you don't do the following) is that smolder is transformed into rimfire (that blue flame) when you apply chill effect on a mob that has smolder.
3. both smolder and rimfire works identically in regards to Swath of destruction -> 20% DR debuff.
4. Now, Combustive action gives mobs 24% DR debuff. But it also makes your daily to apply smolder.
5. When you apply smolder using daily and then apply chill, you can smolder and rimfire at the same time. you literally see both the normal flame and the blue flame. The result of this is that your Swath of Destruction debuff procs twice = 40% DR debuff (plus 24% from CA, that's 64% just from Class Features), however...
6. You must test on your platform how to achieve this. PC players report that in order to do this, you need to hit with daily first (which doe snot apply chill, like Oppressive Force), then to hit with non-chill non-smolder encounter, like Fanning the Flame off(!!!) spell mastery, and than apply chill.
7. some other players report different stuff, also Icy Veins is problematic because it seems to overwrite your smolder.
8. In order to keep both smolder and rimfire up, you need to refresher them separately, Smolder by Scorching Burst, and Rimfire by a chill effect.

Do you know if it's different on PS4? It's really hard to see the red and blue flames icons on enemy when it doesn't show all effects like on PC.

I understand that stacking smoulder and rimefire on boss is pretty straight forward: OP -> FtF/RoE off tab -> IT off tab or CoI on tab to apply chill -> SB to refresh smoulder. Then keeping rimefire with chill (IT, CoI on tab, Chilling Cloud) and keeping smoulder with SB. If there is another CW in party, he has to wait with using his chill power until you use FtF/RoE after OP, right?

How it looks on trash? Can you reliably keep both? Is it possible? With usual rotation IT, RoE, ST and FtF on tab?

On a side note, doesn't RoE on tab only provides double debuff when you use both charges at once, and not later on since then you have to wait for both cooldowns to use again both charges, and can only use one charge?

metalicum1

trzebiat#2067 said:

metalicum1 said:

david#2060 said:

@theraxin , ty for the info, yes i know uncapped debuffs are better than damage buffs. However, ray of enfleebement on tab also gives such great debuff on paper, but the results are not the same than with FI.

@metalicum1 , ty vm for this information, although im afraid I dont understad very well, my experience with renemof is very limited. I do not know how to stack smolder, ...double swarth of destruction? A more detailed explanation of the rotation, and what is produced on each step, would be very appreciated, thank you....."..you dont overwrite your smolder varies"...no idea of what this means, ty for feedback

I will try to explain it step by step.
1. Swath of destruction gives 20% DR debuff (4 points into it of course) when a mob has smolder.
2. Smolder has 2 forms in the game: smolder and rimfire. what happens 99% of the time (everytime you don't do the following) is that smolder is transformed into rimfire (that blue flame) when you apply chill effect on a mob that has smolder.
3. both smolder and rimfire works identically in regards to Swath of destruction -> 20% DR debuff.
4. Now, Combustive action gives mobs 24% DR debuff. But it also makes your daily to apply smolder.
5. When you apply smolder using daily and then apply chill, you can smolder and rimfire at the same time. you literally see both the normal flame and the blue flame. The result of this is that your Swath of Destruction debuff procs twice = 40% DR debuff (plus 24% from CA, that's 64% just from Class Features), however...
6. You must test on your platform how to achieve this. PC players report that in order to do this, you need to hit with daily first (which doe snot apply chill, like Oppressive Force), then to hit with non-chill non-smolder encounter, like Fanning the Flame off(!!!) spell mastery, and than apply chill.
7. some other players report different stuff, also Icy Veins is problematic because it seems to overwrite your smolder.
8. In order to keep both smolder and rimfire up, you need to refresher them separately, Smolder by Scorching Burst, and Rimfire by a chill effect.

Do you know if it's different on PS4? It's really hard to see the red and blue flames icons on enemy when it doesn't show all effects like on PC.

I understand that stacking smoulder and rimefire on boss is pretty straight forward: OP -> FtF/RoE off tab -> IT off tab or CoI on tab to apply chill -> SB to refresh smoulder. Then keeping rimefire with chill (IT, CoI on tab, Chilling Cloud) and keeping smoulder with SB. If there is another CW in party, he has to wait with using his chill power until you use FtF/RoE after OP, right?

How it looks on trash? Can you reliably keep both? Is it possible? With usual rotation IT, RoE, ST and FtF on tab?

On a side note, doesn't RoE on tab only provides double debuff when you use both charges at once, and not later on since then you have to wait for both cooldowns to use again both charges, and can only use one charge?

I think it's the same on PS4, there is really no reason not to be the same. Though I cannot confirm anything. As you say it's pain to test with what we got on PS4, though I can confirm what I described works here.

I have no clue how this interact with another CW in the party. I've never run this build with another CW in a party, and I did not look for such information. But I think that it might completely mess it up. I'm pretty sure chill effects are exclusive, so once somebody applies them, another CW can't do it as well.

On trash, it is just the same, though I used steal time. The fact is that you need to have daily ready almost constantly so that you can always start a fight with it and keep up the CA debuff. Either you can have 20-25k recovery or more, or you can use other method that I will not discuss here. When I played this build I had up to 30k recovery and it worked splendidly.

Yes RoE on mastery provides 35% DR debuff when stacked. How long the debuff lasts is again hidden to us on PS4. I've never used RoE on tab, unless I was in a party with no other support and the boss died within seconds. This is actually why I don't play this anymore, in the current meta, your DR debuffs usually go over cap quite significantly. It is nice you can provide 35%+40%+24%+5%=DR debuff, but in the current meta, when you have GFs, OPs, and mainly DCs providing DR debuffs as well, you go over cap and doing essentially nothing. What's the point of being by far the best DR debuffer in the game, when the meta favors a combination of other classes that can do the same plus provide raw buffs, powersharing etc..

trzebiat

metalicum1 said:

trzebiat#2067 said:

metalicum1 said:

david#2060 said:

@theraxin , ty for the info, yes i know uncapped debuffs are better than damage buffs. However, ray of enfleebement on tab also gives such great debuff on paper, but the results are not the same than with FI.

@metalicum1 , ty vm for this information, although im afraid I dont understad very well, my experience with renemof is very limited. I do not know how to stack smolder, ...double swarth of destruction? A more detailed explanation of the rotation, and what is produced on each step, would be very appreciated, thank you....."..you dont overwrite your smolder varies"...no idea of what this means, ty for feedback

I will try to explain it step by step.
1. Swath of destruction gives 20% DR debuff (4 points into it of course) when a mob has smolder.
2. Smolder has 2 forms in the game: smolder and rimfire. what happens 99% of the time (everytime you don't do the following) is that smolder is transformed into rimfire (that blue flame) when you apply chill effect on a mob that has smolder.
3. both smolder and rimfire works identically in regards to Swath of destruction -> 20% DR debuff.
4. Now, Combustive action gives mobs 24% DR debuff. But it also makes your daily to apply smolder.
5. When you apply smolder using daily and then apply chill, you can smolder and rimfire at the same time. you literally see both the normal flame and the blue flame. The result of this is that your Swath of Destruction debuff procs twice = 40% DR debuff (plus 24% from CA, that's 64% just from Class Features), however...
6. You must test on your platform how to achieve this. PC players report that in order to do this, you need to hit with daily first (which doe snot apply chill, like Oppressive Force), then to hit with non-chill non-smolder encounter, like Fanning the Flame off(!!!) spell mastery, and than apply chill.
7. some other players report different stuff, also Icy Veins is problematic because it seems to overwrite your smolder.
8. In order to keep both smolder and rimfire up, you need to refresher them separately, Smolder by Scorching Burst, and Rimfire by a chill effect.

Do you know if it's different on PS4? It's really hard to see the red and blue flames icons on enemy when it doesn't show all effects like on PC.

I understand that stacking smoulder and rimefire on boss is pretty straight forward: OP -> FtF/RoE off tab -> IT off tab or CoI on tab to apply chill -> SB to refresh smoulder. Then keeping rimefire with chill (IT, CoI on tab, Chilling Cloud) and keeping smoulder with SB. If there is another CW in party, he has to wait with using his chill power until you use FtF/RoE after OP, right?

How it looks on trash? Can you reliably keep both? Is it possible? With usual rotation IT, RoE, ST and FtF on tab?

On a side note, doesn't RoE on tab only provides double debuff when you use both charges at once, and not later on since then you have to wait for both cooldowns to use again both charges, and can only use one charge?

I think it's the same on PS4, there is really no reason not to be the same. Though I cannot confirm anything. As you say it's pain to test with what we got on PS4, though I can confirm what I described works here.

I have no clue how this interact with another CW in the party. I've never run this build with another CW in a party, and I did not look for such information. But I think that it might completely mess it up. I'm pretty sure chill effects are exclusive, so once somebody applies them, another CW can't do it as well.

On trash, it is just the same, though I used steal time. The fact is that you need to have daily ready almost constantly so that you can always start a fight with it and keep up the CA debuff. Either you can have 20-25k recovery or more, or you can use other method that I will not discuss here. When I played this build I had up to 30k recovery and it worked splendidly.

Yes RoE on mastery provides 35% DR debuff when stacked. How long the debuff lasts is again hidden to us on PS4. I've never used RoE on tab, unless I was in a party with no other support and the boss died within seconds. This is actually why I don't play this anymore, in the current meta, your DR debuffs usually go over cap quite significantly. It is nice you can provide 35%+40%+24%+5%=DR debuff, but in the current meta, when you have GFs, OPs, and mainly DCs providing DR debuffs as well, you go over cap and doing essentially nothing. What's the point of being by far the best DR debuffer in the game, when the meta favors a combination of other classes that can do the same plus provide raw buffs, powersharing etc..

So on trash to stack both you could use OP -> ST -> IT -> FtF on tab to apply smoulder. Is that correct?

I have around 18k recovery at the moment, will go up after double RP. I use Radiants for power on character and 6x Silveries for recovery on companion (2x Krig, 1x Hellig). Don't have Gond to use Artificer's Persuasion, but depending on the group composition I can keep almost 100% up time on CA.

I've been wondering what enchants would be best to use on character keeping in mind loadouts if I'd like to switch to more DPS oriented setup (I like MoF more than SS) without changing enchants each time. I understand that I don't need recovery on DPS setup with Spell Twisting. I was thinking about using Radiants on 2x Dod on character, Silvery in other places and switch Dods with Hellig and Krig (with Silvery) to get more crit and power from companion. Is that a good idea? I already have Trans Lightning, I'll make two sets of artifacts (Wheel, Thayan Book, Kessell Sphere, CW Sigil and DC Sigil, Black Dragon, Beholder, Valindra).

metalicum1

trzebiat#2067 said:

metalicum1 said:

trzebiat#2067 said:

metalicum1 said:

david#2060 said:

@theraxin , ty for the info, yes i know uncapped debuffs are better than damage buffs. However, ray of enfleebement on tab also gives such great debuff on paper, but the results are not the same than with FI.

@metalicum1 , ty vm for this information, although im afraid I dont understad very well, my experience with renemof is very limited. I do not know how to stack smolder, ...double swarth of destruction? A more detailed explanation of the rotation, and what is produced on each step, would be very appreciated, thank you....."..you dont overwrite your smolder varies"...no idea of what this means, ty for feedback

I will try to explain it step by step.
1. Swath of destruction gives 20% DR debuff (4 points into it of course) when a mob has smolder.
2. Smolder has 2 forms in the game: smolder and rimfire. what happens 99% of the time (everytime you don't do the following) is that smolder is transformed into rimfire (that blue flame) when you apply chill effect on a mob that has smolder.
3. both smolder and rimfire works identically in regards to Swath of destruction -> 20% DR debuff.
4. Now, Combustive action gives mobs 24% DR debuff. But it also makes your daily to apply smolder.
5. When you apply smolder using daily and then apply chill, you can smolder and rimfire at the same time. you literally see both the normal flame and the blue flame. The result of this is that your Swath of Destruction debuff procs twice = 40% DR debuff (plus 24% from CA, that's 64% just from Class Features), however...
6. You must test on your platform how to achieve this. PC players report that in order to do this, you need to hit with daily first (which doe snot apply chill, like Oppressive Force), then to hit with non-chill non-smolder encounter, like Fanning the Flame off(!!!) spell mastery, and than apply chill.
7. some other players report different stuff, also Icy Veins is problematic because it seems to overwrite your smolder.
8. In order to keep both smolder and rimfire up, you need to refresher them separately, Smolder by Scorching Burst, and Rimfire by a chill effect.

Do you know if it's different on PS4? It's really hard to see the red and blue flames icons on enemy when it doesn't show all effects like on PC.

I understand that stacking smoulder and rimefire on boss is pretty straight forward: OP -> FtF/RoE off tab -> IT off tab or CoI on tab to apply chill -> SB to refresh smoulder. Then keeping rimefire with chill (IT, CoI on tab, Chilling Cloud) and keeping smoulder with SB. If there is another CW in party, he has to wait with using his chill power until you use FtF/RoE after OP, right?

How it looks on trash? Can you reliably keep both? Is it possible? With usual rotation IT, RoE, ST and FtF on tab?

On a side note, doesn't RoE on tab only provides double debuff when you use both charges at once, and not later on since then you have to wait for both cooldowns to use again both charges, and can only use one charge?

I think it's the same on PS4, there is really no reason not to be the same. Though I cannot confirm anything. As you say it's pain to test with what we got on PS4, though I can confirm what I described works here.

I have no clue how this interact with another CW in the party. I've never run this build with another CW in a party, and I did not look for such information. But I think that it might completely mess it up. I'm pretty sure chill effects are exclusive, so once somebody applies them, another CW can't do it as well.

On trash, it is just the same, though I used steal time. The fact is that you need to have daily ready almost constantly so that you can always start a fight with it and keep up the CA debuff. Either you can have 20-25k recovery or more, or you can use other method that I will not discuss here. When I played this build I had up to 30k recovery and it worked splendidly.

Yes RoE on mastery provides 35% DR debuff when stacked. How long the debuff lasts is again hidden to us on PS4. I've never used RoE on tab, unless I was in a party with no other support and the boss died within seconds. This is actually why I don't play this anymore, in the current meta, your DR debuffs usually go over cap quite significantly. It is nice you can provide 35%+40%+24%+5%=DR debuff, but in the current meta, when you have GFs, OPs, and mainly DCs providing DR debuffs as well, you go over cap and doing essentially nothing. What's the point of being by far the best DR debuffer in the game, when the meta favors a combination of other classes that can do the same plus provide raw buffs, powersharing etc..

So on trash to stack both you could use OP -> ST -> IT -> FtF on tab to apply smoulder. Is that correct?

I have around 18k recovery at the moment, will go up after double RP. I use Radiants for power on character and 6x Silveries for recovery on companion (2x Krig, 1x Hellig). Don't have Gond to use Artificer's Persuasion, but depending on the group composition I can keep almost 100% up time on CA.

I've been wondering what enchants would be best to use on character keeping in mind loadouts if I'd like to switch to more DPS oriented setup (I like MoF more than SS) without changing enchants each time. I understand that I don't need recovery on DPS setup with Spell Twisting. I was thinking about using Radiants on 2x Dod on character, Silvery in other places and switch Dods with Hellig and Krig (with Silvery) to get more crit and power from companion. Is that a good idea? I already have Trans Lightning, I'll make two sets of artifacts (Wheel, Thayan Book, Kessell Sphere, CW Sigil and DC Sigil, Black Dragon, Beholder, Valindra).

I'm not sure how FtF on tab interacts with the stacks on smolder. I would do OP -> FtF (or ST) -> CoI on Tab

Yeah, I see where you're going with that. I would agree that in order to switch between DPS and full support quickly, getting the
stats that differ for each build from Con Artist rings is a pretty good idea, and the cheapest probably. Con Artist is relevant for both DPS and support builds, and it has ring sots which allows you to get a lot of recovery. with legendary helligs you can get a lot.

Also you can try Black Dragon as a main artifact, get 2 other to get the cooldown to 45 secs, and get the Griffon power for another reduction. It works quite well, and the hearth of the black Dragon also provides an uncapped debuff.

dairyzeus

trzebiat#2067 said:

So on trash to stack both you could use OP -> ST -> IT -> FtF on tab to apply smoulder. Is that correct?

I have around 18k recovery at the moment, will go up after double RP. I use Radiants for power on character and 6x Silveries for recovery on companion (2x Krig, 1x Hellig). Don't have Gond to use Artificer's Persuasion, but depending on the group composition I can keep almost 100% up time on CA.

I've been wondering what enchants would be best to use on character keeping in mind loadouts if I'd like to switch to more DPS oriented setup (I like MoF more than SS) without changing enchants each time. I understand that I don't need recovery on DPS setup with Spell Twisting. I was thinking about using Radiants on 2x Dod on character, Silvery in other places and switch Dods with Hellig and Krig (with Silvery) to get more crit and power from companion. Is that a good idea? I already have Trans Lightning, I'll make two sets of artifacts (Wheel, Thayan Book, Kessell Sphere, CW Sigil and DC Sigil, Black Dragon, Beholder, Valindra).

Last I checked (which was probably a couple months ago) FtF on mastery would work as your "non chill encounter" for double stacking purposes.

So the rotation would be oppressive force -> Ftf (mastery or not) -> IT -> scorching burst and chill encounters to refresh both stacks.

Keep in mind if you've got icy veins feated it's virtually impossible to double stack as icy veins will add chill during your "non chill enounter" unless you're far enough away from your opponent, then you still need to get back into range for icy terrian fast enough to get that off and a scorching burst to refesh the original smoulder.

It's just not gonna happen.

Just another of the many reason I think buff debuff wizards are better off going the spell twisting/elemental empowerment route.

mamalion1234

IS NOT only the debuff matter in a dungeon.

mamalion1234

metalicum1 said:

If you want to play MoF Rene support, you should learn how to stack smolder and keep up all the DR debuffs with Combustive Action and double swath of Destruction.
I would personally not play this build right now. The current meta does not allow such wizard to be part of endgame groups. Absolute majority of this build's utility comes from the DR debuff, which on bosses is almost hitting (or hitting) the cap on its own. The problem is that in absolute majority of groups, this is not necessary as there are plenty of other DR debuffs from other support players (OP, GF, DC). Usually, you effort is futile because of the DR debuff hard cap.

see this debuffs list
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1N8Y_AmqnnhOdaCT2Sg9e-OcC0m6q5nUJLfujZVsI1Z0/edit#gid=0

If you want to play the build anyway, you need to apply smolder at the beginning by Oppressive Force, and then apply chill to get double smolder stack (test it on your platform, experiences how to apply this so that you don't overwrite your smolder varies, though you always need to apply smoulder by daily, that's the key)

THE current meta go hit 1-2 mobs in fbi and call it current meta. I Havent see yet the current meta video does a comfortable run in sp.

dupeks

FWIW, if you have 5 or fewer targets, especially if you are trying to outrun other CW chill, FI -> CoI on Tab works great for stacking smolder quickly (directly, nothing in between).

I encourage you to play around with CW if you're interested in playing debuff. Loadouts are great. Debuff WEs (PF, Frost) can be great. Mirage weapons can be great.

I don't know of a current meta per se, but a great support MoF CW can easily bring a lot of value to any end-game team (and carry any T2 as the dps to boot).

trzebiat

I've been experimenting with my build recently, trying different setups of feats (while waiting for loadouts) and rotations, but still staying with Renegade/Oppressor (Wisdom and Recovery instead Spell Twisting). I didn't put points into Ice Veins (to be able to stack Smoulder and Rimefire for Swath debuff) and instead I went with Phantasmal Destruction for Crit Sev. I normally use Silvery on companion, mostly Azures on character. I was surprised by the damage I could achieve on trash (eToS, FBI hill climb, SP, or even mSVA) by just swapping 2x Krig with 4x Silvery from companion for 2x Dod with 4x Azure I used on character, artifacts with Recovery for Crit/Power (I kept DC Sigil as main) and changing rotation to CP/CC, IT/Dis/ST/CoI on tab. My crit chance was around 70% and over 100% with Nexus, Recovery around 18k IIRC. And I was able to keep up or even get ahead with damage of some higher IL DPS classes (on trash of course). Is there something wrong here (aside the fact that I didn't run CA/SoD like I should as support MoF Rene)? I have to try run more with CC/SoD or CP/SoD and manually apply Smoulder. Oh, and I'm playing Drow and using Trans Lightning.

theraxin

A

trzebiat#2067 said:

Is there something wrong here (aside the fact that I didn't run CA/SoD like I should as support MoF Rene)?

No, because the exact "problem" is that you've dropped the CA. It's not a real problem, it only means that you are not all debuff, which initially draining up most of the DPS (that's why you are so high on the paingiver). You lose 24% debuff with that, but depending on the team, you can get more out of it with your personal DPS. In that build I suggest you to find the fine line in what debuffs do you need and take the rest on DPS.

In that sense, you don't actually need recovery, so you should've been using Spell twisting. The bitter cold+Phantasmal just not worths the sacrifice of ST.

With the added value of Spell twist, you can drop the Wis+reco, because that gonna be useless, what gives you a high power buff.

Actually, this build can be pushed closer to the buff potential, with mounts like legacy snail (25% AP gain), DC sigil, so you can risk doing CA+SoD in the later stages.

I would consider using FtF even if CC is in use instead of Steal time. In SS, it's good because it ticks Storm spell a lot, but otherwise it's really slow.

trzebiat

Yeah, finding that line where going for personal DPS over debuffs can be hard, but would it be safe to assume that in trash heavy content going for personal DPS even as MoF Rene can be better when the other DPS classes are not focused on AoE damage but more single target (assuming similarly geared)?

I'm also wondering at what circumstances it would be better to run CC/CP for more damage or damage/debuff with CC/SoD or CP/SoD. Talking strictly about trash, for single target sticking with CA/SoD (plus RoE). If there is another CW in party who has Icy Veins, I could use that for my advantage with running CP.

I'm using Flail Snail for 15% AP gain with DC Sigil (keeping Heart of Black Dragon as backup for the debuff or using it for Artificer's Persuasion).

I was thinking about going back to Spell Twisting now. What I'm trying to do is to find a spot where I could switch (once we get the loadouts on PS4) between Rene support and Thaum/Rene for more DPS (I'd like to stay with MoF) or maybe make one loadout for SS Rene, without the need to change enchants - just artifacts (I also made mythic Wheel, but now I'm reading it's not better than DC Sigil) and rings to manage stats like crit and power (I have 2 Dods, 2 Krigs and 1 Hellig) - aiming for 100% crit on MoF Thaum/Rene DPS, but for Rene/Thaum I won't need it that high because of Nexus, right? I understand I'd have to replace Silvery with Azures or Radiants when switching back to Spell Twisting. Going Recovery route means the gear doesn't fit other builds.

dairyzeus

I personally think the debuff build is better for aoe fights. The easy application of 44% debuff to an unlimited amount of enemies around you via oppressive force is something no other class can easily achieve.

In single target it's far easier for everyone to stack up their debuffs on the same enemy meaning you yourself typically don't need to provide as many debuffs (assuming a somewhat standard group that can hit the cap).

If you're looking for a hybrid-ish build this is probably what i'd do.

For AoE i'd run:
fanning the flame on mastery
icy terrain
steal time (or conduit of ice)
disintegrate

combustive action and swath of destruction

26 renegade (don't take chilling advantage as you'll still want 100% crit when you swap loadouts)
15 thaum with spell twisting


For single target i'd run:

Conduit of ice on mastery
ray of enfeeblement
fanning the flame
disintegrate

swath of destruction and chilling presence. Manually apply smolder via scorching burst.

26 thaum
15 renegade with abyss of chaos

This should allow you to run the same gear for both builds. Aim for 100% crit chance (i hate relying on nexus), and aim for around 50% - 60% recharge speed increase. That RSI plus DC sigil, ap gain from CA, quick action, and extra encounter spam should be more than enough to allow 100% Combustive Action uptime in the aoe setup.

I'd recommend krigs on your companion if you got um and a mix of black ice and brutal enchantments.

Alternatively if your party doesn't need the extra debuffs in single target, you could go the full SS thaum route and replace FtF with sudden storm or chillstrike (if you hate sudden storm like I do). Then run storm spell instead of swath.

There are a lot of variations that can work. This is a bit off the top of my head, so definitely tweak as necessary.

metalicum1

dairyzeus said:

I personally think the debuff build is better for aoe fights. The easy application of 44% debuff to an unlimited amount of enemies around you via oppressive force is something no other class can easily achieve.

I

This should allow you to run the same gear for both builds. Aim for 100% crit chance (i hate relying on nexus), and aim for around 50% - 60% recharge speed increase. That RSI plus DC sigil, ap gain from CA, quick action, and extra encounter spam should be more than enough to allow 100% Combustive Action uptime in the aoe setup.

It's not enough. you can't manage to have daily every 8-9 seconds or so, which is what is required for the 100% uptime in ideal conditions. I'm playing exactly what you suggest and it is much better to slot CP for AoE as well.
We would be able to keep up CA debuff, but only with large investments to recovery. at least around 20k.

theraxin

I'm most likely on the side of Combustive Action or Critical Confl. and don't bother using Chilling presence in most scenario with that build.

If you are going with 2 DPS (which is getting less likely), being sure that you spread smolder all over the place is more important than slowly stacking up the chill on mobs for your own greed. Sometimes, if there's no CW with opp tree, Chilling Presence is not tempting at all (and neither your DPS in the team) to be relied on. So, if you can spread smolder all over the place, than Combustive, if not, you should've been using Critical Confla.

Combustive does not need to be 100% uptime to be effective (because boosting yourself with 48% teamwise can be less effective than a 10-15% debuff on enemies), but you need to be sure that you not capped the debuff limit.

david

Hi all and thanks very much for all the input.

Im thinking in droping CA in behalf of CC (keep SOD ofc). If so, which would be the reccomended powers as well as sequence, for full support rene mof?

dairyzeus

metalicum1 said:

dairyzeus said:

I personally think the debuff build is better for aoe fights. The easy application of 44% debuff to an unlimited amount of enemies around you via oppressive force is something no other class can easily achieve.

I

This should allow you to run the same gear for both builds. Aim for 100% crit chance (i hate relying on nexus), and aim for around 50% - 60% recharge speed increase. That RSI plus DC sigil, ap gain from CA, quick action, and extra encounter spam should be more than enough to allow 100% Combustive Action uptime in the aoe setup.

It's not enough. you can't manage to have daily every 8-9 seconds or so, which is what is required for the 100% uptime in ideal conditions. I'm playing exactly what you suggest and it is much better to slot CP for AoE as well.
We would be able to keep up CA debuff, but only with large investments to recovery. at least around 20k.

I'm having a very different experience. On my SS CW (which doesn't have extra ap gain from Combustive) I can pretty easily pop off a daily every 10 seconds in combat (which is 100% Combustive uptime if using oppressive force). I can do more if running with something like a tact GF. That's with a little under 7k recovery, 1k in action point gain, and epic quick action.