High item level hybrid tank dps question

brick

Hello family!!!

Quick question for my brothers and sisters. At high (4k+) item level, what is the best option for dps? Stacking crit with and crit severity with a vorpal, or going for the high str/power route and using lightning or flaming??

rjc9000

Meh. I was hoping to release this with an upcoming project of mine, but since this part was finished a month ago, I might as well share this publicly, as I figured withholding the information won't change things up too much.

Here are my tests on DPS GF weapon enchants on single target for the typical abilities.


https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-Ke6JcpU1JQqQdy2RK-f7Ok64C6vQA6g1W8EalaWcaw/pub

EDIT: Link is down, because I am updating for Mod12's debuff changes (better Terror), finding Bilethorn 2nd hit Crit/non Crit properties, and anything else I can think of.

Although that won't change our enchant choice, I would prefer an up-to-date version in which

brick

You the real mvp. That's what i needed to see

santralafax

@RJC9000 Thank you for posting that. Very interesting results! My GF is only about 13+K, with about 50% crit, so the information for vorpal is more an aspiration than a reality. But it is time to move on from Lightning.

Have you tried any of these tests with your GWF?

rjc9000

santralafax said:

@RJC9000 Thank you for posting that. Very interesting results! My GF is only about 13+K, with about 50% crit, so the information for vorpal is more an aspiration than a reality. But it is time to move on from Lightning.

Have you tried any of these tests with your GWF?

Yes... yes I have...

thefabricant

Great work @rjc9000, a little nitpicking though, what is a, "vorpa" enchantment? Also, where are the pretty graphs? My document had graphs

rjc9000

thefabricant said:

Great work @rjc9000, a little nitpicking though, what is a, "vorpa" enchantment?

Vorpa enchantment:

For every word you write, you deal an extra hit of spelling errors which is 100% (lesser)- 999% (at Trans) more effective against people with grammar OCD. In addition, after every 3 spelling errors, you summon @michela123, who debuffs spelling error effectiveness with 99999x mitigated grammar OCD debuffs.

kemi1984

Good laugh there man, good laugh indeed.

Thanks for the tests too...

I'm quite surprised that Fey is not so far behind Vorpal to be honest.

rjc9000

tbh, I think that there's a good case that Fey wins/is just as good as Vorpal, since these calculations didn't account for any CA bonuses the character would have, and those would be somewhat significant in determing whether Vorpal or Fey reigns supreme for a GF.

Plus, you also have the damage debuff on Fey, which starts making it more attractive as the (more defensive minded) DPS GF's enchantment of choice.

sadus671

rjc9000 said:

tbh, I think that there's a good case that Fey wins/is just as good as Vorpal, since these calculations didn't account for any CA bonuses the character would have, and those would be somewhat significant in determing whether Vorpal or Fey reigns supreme for a GF.

Plus, you also have the damage debuff on Fey, which starts making it more attractive as the (more defensive minded) DPS GF's enchantment of choice.

Great work again @rjc9000

I would also promote use of a Trans Fey as an end goal Weapon Enchant choice.

Especially given the thread's title (Hybrid DPS Tank).

Fey had a very consistent DPS increase value (18% - 24.2%), it also has a lower likeliness of having multiple in the group... as I mostly see it with tanks... and a GF would be in the tank role.

I know Vorpal had a consistent 25% value, but it doesn't provide the value of the damage debuff and also requires 100% crit chance (which can be a significant challenge or DPS liability for GF's with no contributing attribute).

It would probably be a worthwhile effort to test and see what Crit % you need to have 100% Jagged Blade uptime. Since it's our only crit dependant ability/feat.... with a higher prioritization for additional power ( higher damage) or recovery (more encounters). With the assumption you aren't using Vorpal.

If people are low on AD and need a cheaper alternative, I might suggest a Terror... since it is not a popular enchant (less risk of multiple users in the group), inexpensive (if you are patient.. you can probably grab one for less that 3.5 million). I would say Plaguefire, but I see a lot of support classes also use it (DevOP's, Buff/Debuff Mof CW's, and DC's)... so I think you are at much higher risk of having multiple of the same enchant in the group.

kemi1984

Agreed @sadus71, ensuring 100% crit chance takes a dedicated approach on a GF - it is worth it of course as Jagged Blades makes a considerable amount of our damage.

I was there using sudden rings, but don't really like the ICD on those. Still wondering are those better than DOD's with sustained stats.

Fey does sound nice with the debuff, I won't lie. Especially if you really have to sacrifice the DR in order to be more offensive.

Thanks again for the tests @rjc9000 !

brick

But at this high level we shouldn't have to sacrifice too much dr to sustain the crit.

With bondings proc i have 89%crit and 97% dr. So for me i think the best to run with is vorpal

sadus671

brick#6890 said:

But at this high level we shouldn't have to sacrifice too much dr to sustain the crit.



With bondings proc i have 89%crit and 97% dr. So for me i think the best to run with is vorpal

Right I was talking about getting to 100% Crit %, since that is what you need to have the 25% value outlined in the shared document. @ 89% you are only getting a diminish value (I'd need someone with slick math skills to say exactly what the difference of Vorpal Effectiveness is 100% vs. 89%)

That could actually render Fey better at that Critical %.

To get that additional 11% you'll need to come up with 4400 crit.... to get to 89% I'm assuming you are likely already using R12 Azures in your Companion Gear.

rjc9000

by the way, I temporarily took down the document to do some more comparisons, write some additional stuff, etc.

I'm not sure if I should account for the fact that GFs are generallly crit challenged, but... I know Snoo was able to get 100% Crit and I myself sit at about 94% with 5 stacks of Reckless and no Steel Grace. I'm sure I could get 100% with consumables, but I'm not going to waste AD to get a full 100% Crit.

Formula: [(Cii*X +P +1)/(Ci*X+P +1)]-1

Assuming we use the 89% Crit, with a 85% base Severity/135% with Vorpal...

[(1.35 * 089 + 0.15 + 1)/(0.85 * 0.89 + 0.15 + )] -1
[(1.2015 + 1.15)/(0.7565+ 1.15)] -1
0.2334 or 23.34%

sadus671

Ahh.. thanks.

I was sure someone could/can get to 100%.

Forge has 85% with 5 stacks using Black Ice in Offensive slots 90% with Food + Potion

Switching to Brutals would give me about 5% more crit % and Azures would give me about 12% more. (so easily 100% with potion + food)

The primary question is... is it worth it? vs. having more power or recovery.

I would assume only in the case of using a Vorpal

sadus671

xsayajinx1 said:

I am using brutals only and after bonding procc + 1k crit pot + squash soup I sit on 103% crit chance in combat.

(Could drop the crit pot I just realized - thanks to myself o/)



With the sudden crit ring (don't have any other double offense ring yet) at 113% . You don't need to slot azures at all.



@sadus671

Hey,

I was just addressing brick's situation. I wasn't questioning if someone can get to 100% crit.

The question I was posing is it optimal to do so....

Basically the question I was posing is... is Vorpal BiS? or Is Fey the best enchant to use for GF and as a result it might be more optimal to stack additional power/recovery instead of crit.

rjc9000

Oi, @sadus671, I've been working pretty hard with the mad scientist in creating a "better" comparison tool, since all the complaints I got (doesn't account for reality) were taken to heart. I think I got something that might help you...

The graph is a comparison tool on Crushing Surge and it's more or less a "preview" of things to come. Please read all the notes, as they will help explain wtf is going on on the graph a little better.

https://www.desmos.com/calculator/vi2zwtvrwf

(Edit: lmao I was so lazy I forgot to take out the notes about how I used to use C to denote Critical Severity).

Please let me know if anything is unclear (and if you're the mad scientist, let me know if I'm still missing something, because I've been spamming you alot lately).

sadus671

Hey @rjc9000

Thanks bud!

Super Awesome. I'll report back any results.

thefabricant

rjc9000 said:

Oi, @sadus671, I've been working pretty hard with the mad scientist in creating a "better" comparison tool, since all the complaints I got (doesn't account for reality) were taken to heart. I think I got something that might help you...

The graph is a comparison tool on Crushing Surge and it's more or less a "preview" of things to come. Please read all the notes, as they will help explain wtf is going on on the graph a little better.

https://www.desmos.com/calculator/vi2zwtvrwf

(Edit: lmao I was so lazy I forgot to take out the notes about how I used to use C to denote Critical Severity).

Please let me know if anything is unclear (and if you're the mad scientist, let me know if I'm still missing something, because I've been spamming you alot lately).

@rjc9000 I know this is a lot to ask and I should probably leave it be but...I beg of you:





Do this xD

rjc9000

thefabricant said:

rjc9000 said:

Oi, @sadus671, I've been working pretty hard with the mad scientist in creating a "better" comparison tool, since all the complaints I got (doesn't account for reality) were taken to heart. I think I got something that might help you...

The graph is a comparison tool on Crushing Surge and it's more or less a "preview" of things to come. Please read all the notes, as they will help explain wtf is going on on the graph a little better.

https://www.desmos.com/calculator/vi2zwtvrwf

(Edit: lmao I was so lazy I forgot to take out the notes about how I used to use C to denote Critical Severity).

Please let me know if anything is unclear (and if you're the mad scientist, let me know if I'm still missing something, because I've been spamming you alot lately).

@rjc9000 I know this is a lot to ask and I should probably leave it be but...I beg of you:





Do this xD

I think I won't... too much effort, you see.

If I'll do it, it'll happen eventually™.

ambrizo

So for a lower end dps weapon enchant which would be better overall trans flaming or trans terror for conq GF?

rjc9000

I'd like to point out how a Conqueror build comes together only when you have lots of gear.

But, since not everyone can do that, I would pick Feytouched as the best low-end DPS GF enchant, then possibly followed up by Bilethorn.

ambrizo

I appreciate your response thank you very much! I've been a GF lurker on the forums for a long time so a response from one of the GF Gurus is pretty awesome! I probably worded that incorrectly. I understand vorp and fey would be considered "End game goals" with gear etc I was just wondering out of the two which one would net me more dps even if it is marginal. I'm a 3900 Tact GF so most of my gear enchants are geared towards support but I was working on dabbling into Conq as a side project.

rjc9000

I would pick Terror over Flaming.

Comparatively, Terror is much simpler to use. You apply to your weapon, it deals 30% of your weapon damage, and you go.

Flaming is super reliant on timing, and if you don't time it right, Flaming jams and you get an enchant which is weaker than Terror. I know GF has some of the slowest casting attacks in the game, which, in theory should work out well with how Flaming rewards a rhythm of attacks (ability hit -> let Flaming DoT play out -> ability hit -> Flaming DoT, repeat). I have not extensively tested if the GF can safely get all 3 DoT hits to apply before applying your next hit, but I personally think the GF will be subject to jamming issues.

Jamming issues aside, Terror also holds the edge over Flaming in versatility. Terror is pretty good on a GWF, so if you manage to graduate to a Feytouched or Vorpal on your GF, you can pass the Terror over to your GWF (if you own one). Terror, from what I hear, is a good option on PvP setups, so if you decide to dabble in PvP on a GF, Terror might be good for that. Terror also is decent for a pure tank setup, since it does pack a decent damage debuff.