Class balance: Effectiveness of stats, MoF dedicated buff/debuff

metalicum1

One of the problems I see with the MoF buff/debuff build is that at certain point, you simply do no need more stats in order to do what your build should do. For the build to function 100%-ish you really need only about 25k recovery (to be really sure with the uptime of CA, not use spell twisting etc. ) and some critical chance, about 40% is more than enough to proc everything you need almost immediately. (the exact stat numbers are not important to the point, the point is that it is not that much).

For the rest, you just stack power. But the problem is stacking power will not do for you much. Yes, it increases you dmg output, but the amount of dmg you are able to produce for each point of power is extremely small in comparison to any dedicated dps. Other support in the game have other ways to utilize those stats, like healing and power sharing, but CW does not have any of that. the power is essentially wasted.

I think this problem can be solved by a new feat, high in the Renegade tree. Instead of Masterful Arcane Theft, a feat which nobody uses, we can have something on the level of powersharing, but instead of power, you will share recovery, furthering your buffer specialization. I'm really not sure what the exact effect of the feat should be, but the point is to utilize stats in the end game with greater effect. If DCs and OPs can have all that, why not we.

vojo

The problem is there is no bard in this game, now I think CW bard build is best at this current time.
The 30% damge buff post mod is best dmg buff in game. Also some of the best debuffs in game add weapon procs and Latern arguably best utilty/Buff class.

metalicum1

vojo#1855 said:

The problem is there is no bard in this game, now I think CW bard build is best at this current time.
The 30% damge buff post mod is best dmg buff in game. Also some of the best debuffs in game add weapon procs and Latern arguably best utilty/Buff class.

Well, let's not argue about the class in comparison to other classes here.
My point was about CW buffer stats and how wasted they are in the late end game. This is, I think, the only thing that puts buff CW behind other supports in the game like DCs.

theraxin

Unrelated but if you are at 40% crit, building more crit might help you more than more power in the DPS.

While I can agree with the idea of making 'use' the CW stats, I don't think Mof renegade would need more buff ability to be implemented or be straight buffed with implementations like this, rather than tweaking the existing buffs to scaling. Mostly tweaking Uncertain allegiance, which does not really do anything when the team is geared for 100% crit other than giving crit heal chances to the DC (who would not optimise it's crit that high).

The ability is mechanically boring too, you crit, you all get 5% crit, no mindwork and no choice, you would crit anyway to proc harder things like Nightmare wizardry. At least it's an easy movement point for a buffer on the renegade tree.

If change, I would like to see uncertain to give 20% of your base crit stat to the party than the strict 5% chance (so, bondings and other crit buffs, like chilling adv. excluded, just the mere percentage of stat points were given). To be in line with the old, you need 10k crit and over that you are getting a buffed ability. I don't feel it to solve the issue, because due the way it's crit, it can't really get as impactful as like a reco or power share. But at least I'd think and build on it in a sense where I feel necessary to do so.

metalicum1

theraxin#5169 said:

Unrelated but if you are at 40% crit, building more crit might help you more than more power in the DPS.

While I can agree with the idea of making 'use' the CW stats, I don't think Mof renegade would need more buff ability to be implemented or be straight buffed with implementations like this, rather than tweaking the existing buffs to scaling. Mostly tweaking Uncertain allegiance, which does not really do anything when the team is geared for 100% crit other than giving crit heal chances to the DC (who would not optimise it's crit that high).

The ability is mechanically boring too, you crit, you all get 5% crit, no mindwork and no choice, you would crit anyway to proc harder things like Nightmare wizardry. At least it's an easy movement point for a buffer on the renegade tree.

If change, I would like to see uncertain to give 20% of your base crit stat to the party than the strict 5% chance (so, bondings and other crit buffs, like chilling adv. excluded, just the mere percentage of stat points were given). To be in line with the old, you need 10k crit and over that you are getting a buffed ability. I don't feel it to solve the issue, because due the way it's crit, it can't really get as impactful as like a reco or power share. But at least I'd think and build on it in a sense where I feel necessary to do so.

1. Yes there is no question about that, but the problem is that CW is designed around Chilling presence. It is so powerful that if you want to have similar power level of different classes in terms of DPS, taking CW into a consideration means adding a CP build. So everything that does not use CP (like a dedicated buffer) is extremely inefficient with any stats in terms of DPS, crit included.
2. I don't like the idea of adding sharing crit stat. First, you can actually mess up with low crit owlbear builds (potentially). Second, it's useless in the endgame because no one would ever rely on a CW to be in a party, so the stat would be wasted just as it is the feat now.

But even recovery is a troublesome idea. The developers seem to be unhappy with builds that Spam daily powers, so I don't think there is a chance they would support such play style by adding recovery share.
However, I still think some change is necessary. There is no stat based ability that a non-CP build can use effectively.

theraxin

1, Sad, but true.

2, Owlbear build will just get hurt a lot by the Chaos magic + Uncertain anyway. And power or reco sharing will be too powerful, a direct buff to the class and not a tweak. And crit sharing is still more useful in my view than ArP, because you can tweak you char to still on 60% when comp dies (like Nothic eye in MSP). And most of the secondary stats are hard-capped too.

Maybe make Uncertain give 20% of your base crit and Combat Advantage to the team?

mebengalsfan

Maybe update the heroic feat to be 2% instead of 1%.

Also, make Chaos Magic trigger off a critical hit instead of just randomly. This way, if you have a higher critical chance you would basically elminate any downtime on Chaos Magic, making that Capstone extremely useful.

metalicum1

mebengalsfan#9264 said:

Maybe update the heroic feat to be 2% instead of 1%.

Also, make Chaos Magic trigger off a critical hit instead of just randomly. This way, if you have a higher critical chance you would basically elminate any downtime on Chaos Magic, making that Capstone extremely useful.

I don't think such change of Chaos Magic would be very helpful. Downtime is not great, but the main problem of chaos magic is that 2 of the 3 bonuses are not relevant in the end game. players always cap ARP on their own, and absolute majority cap crit as well, and those who don't usually benefit from it by slotting owlbear cup or something like that. The healing is unreliable and too small.

Fury is the only relevant bonus. The other two require some tweaking. I would like to see more elegant design. the healing bonus is jarring, it's just there to be annoying, it doesn't synergize with anything, it doesn't have any practical use. the other is more fitting, but because of the amount of stats we are able to produce (mainly because of bonding design) it is useless.

Boosting crit severity would make more sense. It would be very thematic, as the Renegade tree is supposed to centered around support through critical strike.
Boosting CA damage beyond soft cap would also be an option. It would synergize with Arcane wizardry.

I don't like the idea of changing only few feats. CW just needs a complete overhaul (Renegade and Opp does, Thaum only tweaks imho, thaum works excellently, that's why 90-ish% play Thaum)

mebengalsfan

metalicum1 said:

mebengalsfan#9264 said:

Maybe update the heroic feat to be 2% instead of 1%.

Also, make Chaos Magic trigger off a critical hit instead of just randomly. This way, if you have a higher critical chance you would basically elminate any downtime on Chaos Magic, making that Capstone extremely useful.

I don't think such change of Chaos Magic would be very helpful. Downtime is not great, but the main problem of chaos magic is that 2 of the 3 bonuses are not relevant in the end game. players always cap ARP on their own, and absolute majority cap crit as well, and those who don't usually benefit from it by slotting owlbear cup or something like that. The healing is unreliable and too small.

Fury is the only relevant bonus. The other two require some tweaking. I would like to see more elegant design. the healing bonus is jarring, it's just there to be annoying, it doesn't synergize with anything, it doesn't have any practical use. the other is more fitting, but because of the amount of stats we are able to produce (mainly because of bonding design) it is useless.

Boosting crit severity would make more sense. It would be very thematic, as the Renegade tree is supposed to centered around support through critical strike.
Boosting CA damage beyond soft cap would also be an option. It would synergize with Arcane wizardry.

I don't like the idea of changing only few feats. CW just needs a complete overhaul (Renegade and Opp does, Thaum only tweaks imho, thaum works excellently, that's why 90-ish% play Thaum)

I agree with both points for Arm Pen and Crit but some days you can't always run with BiS or close to BiS players and you just pug a random T1 or T2 dungeon. Going into these you know you will probably be top DPS most of the time and will carry the group. The Crit Chance and Healing does help these lower players out.

Given this info I would do this....

Fury: Leave as is
Growth: Leave as is for healing but add a 10% power share or boost recovery by 25%
Nexus: Crit Chance and Crit Serverity to 30%

Thoughts?

metalicum1

mebengalsfan#9264 said:

metalicum1 said:

mebengalsfan#9264 said:

Maybe update the heroic feat to be 2% instead of 1%.

Also, make Chaos Magic trigger off a critical hit instead of just randomly. This way, if you have a higher critical chance you would basically elminate any downtime on Chaos Magic, making that Capstone extremely useful.

I don't think such change of Chaos Magic would be very helpful. Downtime is not great, but the main problem of chaos magic is that 2 of the 3 bonuses are not relevant in the end game. players always cap ARP on their own, and absolute majority cap crit as well, and those who don't usually benefit from it by slotting owlbear cup or something like that. The healing is unreliable and too small.

Fury is the only relevant bonus. The other two require some tweaking. I would like to see more elegant design. the healing bonus is jarring, it's just there to be annoying, it doesn't synergize with anything, it doesn't have any practical use. the other is more fitting, but because of the amount of stats we are able to produce (mainly because of bonding design) it is useless.

Boosting crit severity would make more sense. It would be very thematic, as the Renegade tree is supposed to centered around support through critical strike.
Boosting CA damage beyond soft cap would also be an option. It would synergize with Arcane wizardry.

I don't like the idea of changing only few feats. CW just needs a complete overhaul (Renegade and Opp does, Thaum only tweaks imho, thaum works excellently, that's why 90-ish% play Thaum)

I agree with both points for Arm Pen and Crit but some days you can't always run with BiS or close to BiS players and you just pug a random T1 or T2 dungeon. Going into these you know you will probably be top DPS most of the time and will carry the group. The Crit Chance and Healing does help these lower players out.

Given this info I would do this....

Fury: Leave as is
Growth: Leave as is for healing but add a 10% power share or boost recovery by 25%
Nexus: Crit Chance and Crit Serverity to 30%

Thoughts?

I like that quite a bit. I would expect some balance to ensure that the route is not stronger for personal DPS, but I don't have anything to add.

It's really in Cryptic's hands. There are many feats like chaos magic which does not serve any practical purpose, those echos of the past I suppose (I play for a year or so).

disposablehero

This build is seriously fun and I enjoy playing it, but I gotta say, it's only good with people you know. Strangers see mediocrity despite the benefits it brings to the table(paingiver is only thing that matters, etc.), so I've got it as my backup loadout with friends. The meathead face melting wizard is nothing if not effective, I'll give it that.

mebengalsfan

disposablehero#5903 said:

This build is seriously fun and I enjoy playing it, but I gotta say, it's only good with people you know. Strangers see mediocrity despite the benefits it brings to the table(paingiver is only thing that matters, etc.), so I've got it as my backup loadout with friends. The meathead face melting wizard is nothing if not effective, I'll give it that.

With loadouts I have a semi buffer build and when we run with a Templock there are time that I will switch to this build on the boss just to give extra heals and some group buffs.

After running with some Templocks, I believe a CW Buffer and TempLock are very close in DPS with the slight edge going to the TempLock, well at least with how my CW is built.

sangrine

I'd be very happy if all Spellstorm CW re-speced to MOF renegade.
In FBI, I sometimes see Spellstorm CW run up to giant and use steal time,
and then giant swings and kills CW in one hit.
If you never played a MoF CW, now is a good time to start.
MoF CW can be played effectively at max range. No more steal time.
No need to stand next to giants. Safely dps,buff,debuff at far range.

more renegades are also needed.
I often play my DC in group content, and it's very nice to have backup heals.
Healing should not always be "someone else's job".
DC/OP are not perfect and they appreciate some help with heals.
When playing without a dedicated healer,
the heals from a renegade CW are sometimes just enough to help the party survive (without a healer).

Please dont be selfish and expect someone else to do all healing.
Backup heals can be the difference between a perfectly smooth run and a not so smooth run.
And please remember to use ray of enfeeblement on bosses.

More MoF Renegade CW please!

niadan

Just remember that because some of us prefer SS does not make us selfish or play recklessly.

voidgift

It is a while since I did FBI now, but I don't remember dying from ST. Dying, if it happened, came from running out of stamina if too much aggro.

disposablehero

I personally like Steal Time, the trick to it is knowing where to not stand. The casting can be a little wonky, and for some reason I occasionally look like I'm doing a weird dance and the power doesn't fire but a well placed Steal Time is great for filling the screen with giant orange numbers.

dairyzeus

sangrine said:

I'd be very happy if all Spellstorm CW re-speced to MOF renegade.
In FBI, I sometimes see Spellstorm CW run up to giant and use steal time,
and then giant swings and kills CW in one hit.
If you never played a MoF CW, now is a good time to start.
MoF CW can be played effectively at max range. No more steal time.
No need to stand next to giants. Safely dps,buff,debuff at far range.

So much of being a good dps is knowing where to stand, and how to time your abilities for maximum effectiveness.

Sounds like those CWs don't understand the fundamentals of dealing damage.

mebengalsfan

metalicum1 said:

vojo#1855 said:

The problem is there is no bard in this game, now I think CW bard build is best at this current time.
The 30% damge buff post mod is best dmg buff in game. Also some of the best debuffs in game add weapon procs and Latern arguably best utilty/Buff class.

Well, let's not argue about the class in comparison to other classes here.
My point was about CW buffer stats and how wasted they are in the late end game. This is, I think, the only thing that puts buff CW behind other supports in the game like DCs.

I run a DC And CW. Both are nearly identical in gear scores. Ran FBI with the same group 2x other than I swapped from my DC to my CW. CW runs were around 10% faster.

I was running my DC as a DO. I have the feat for Brand of Sun to reduce the target damage and I do the typically DO Righteous build along with using Terrifying Insight as my personal to ensure the group gets the 20% damage buff. I also ran PoD and Forgemaster as the other DC was running BtS.

All runs were no wipe runs yet with my CW we were completing content faster. I did over 50% more damage on my CW than I do on my DC.

My CW uses Critical Conflag and Swath of Destruction as I do not have 25k recovery to keep CA up like I would like. So I am not doing the full on CW buffer/debuffer but runs were still faster. I use the lantern as my artifact, I have the jagged blade as an active companion so any companion I use provides the Defense debuff and I use my Fire Archon.

If groups are strong enough and I don't run with BiS players but players that are working on BiS and we complete content just fine and in a decent amount of time.

Damage wise I'm doing about 60-70% of the damage for the DPS I run with. When I go full on DPS I can keep up with them on my CW and sometimes pass them.

I would like to get to 25K recovery so I can drop spell twisting and swap CC for CA but I don't have the in game resources to do that and my CW main objective is a DPS. I run the buffer/debuffer when we cannot find a 2nd DC or a Healadin to run with and that can happen quite often due to the buffer shortage.

CW buffers can do the job and I'm sure you know that. The problem with this game is the overall average player simply lacks knowledge of what a CW buffer can bring to the table. Sad, but it is what it is and we can use LFG to form our own group.

I know today I was doing FBI and I got a tell afterwards by a player complaining my damage was too low for my IL as a CW in FBI. I replied back in kind and stated, "Next time I won't buff you and will ensure my damage is above yours."

Naive damage dealers is what hurts non-DC buffers.

mebengalsfan

sangrine said:

I'd be very happy if all Spellstorm CW re-speced to MOF renegade.
In FBI, I sometimes see Spellstorm CW run up to giant and use steal time,
and then giant swings and kills CW in one hit.
If you never played a MoF CW, now is a good time to start.
MoF CW can be played effectively at max range. No more steal time.
No need to stand next to giants. Safely dps,buff,debuff at far range.

more renegades are also needed.
I often play my DC in group content, and it's very nice to have backup heals.
Healing should not always be "someone else's job".
DC/OP are not perfect and they appreciate some help with heals.
When playing without a dedicated healer,
the heals from a renegade CW are sometimes just enough to help the party survive (without a healer).

Please dont be selfish and expect someone else to do all healing.
Backup heals can be the difference between a perfectly smooth run and a not so smooth run.
And please remember to use ray of enfeeblement on bosses.

More MoF Renegade CW please!

I saving AD to create a forth loadout. I already have SS Thaum/Ren, MoF Thaum/Ren, and a MoF Ren/Thaum. My next build will be a SS Ren/Thaum. The last build will be a minor buffer but still allow me to play as close to my SS Thaum/Ren build.

lukejones77

sangrine said:

I'd be very happy if all Spellstorm CW re-speced to MOF renegade.
In FBI, I sometimes see Spellstorm CW run up to giant and use steal time,
and then giant swings and kills CW in one hit.
If you never played a MoF CW, now is a good time to start.
MoF CW can be played effectively at max range. No more steal time.
No need to stand next to giants. Safely dps,buff,debuff at far range.

more renegades are also needed.
I often play my DC in group content, and it's very nice to have backup heals.
Healing should not always be "someone else's job".
DC/OP are not perfect and they appreciate some help with heals.
When playing without a dedicated healer,
the heals from a renegade CW are sometimes just enough to help the party survive (without a healer).

Please dont be selfish and expect someone else to do all healing.
Backup heals can be the difference between a perfectly smooth run and a not so smooth run.
And please remember to use ray of enfeeblement on bosses.

More MoF Renegade CW please!

Of course. The DPS CW is an invalidated, relatively underpowered, squishy class. There is a striker paragon for CW that is DPS, nerfed to the ground 2 years ago, untouched since then, and a very poor option for any of the recent content, compared to the top 2 DPS classes. The DEVs should be fixing the problem, rather then everyone abandoning one of the loved Neverwinter options to become MoF.
DPS TRs and SWs could do with some love too.

If you were a DEV balancing your DPS class options, you'd expect that perhaps the top DPS option would be balanced out by being squishy, or some other issues - but no, the DEVs have allowed the game to evolve to the point where the outstanding DPS, the best survivability, and the best speed is all concentrated in one DPS class, closely followed by another, and leaving the other classes to suffer badly.
Personally, while I understand that you much prefer a MoF/support over a SpellStorm/DPS, I don't think it's fair to ask people to switch to a paragon that is psychologically different in it's game play, differently geared, different stats, differently enchanted, differently feated and maybe with a different race, when optimized - just because the DEVs to nothing to properly support the paragon choices that they offer. Why not ask the DEVs to fix their class balancing instead?

mebengalsfan

lukejones77 said:

sangrine said:

I'd be very happy if all Spellstorm CW re-speced to MOF renegade.
In FBI, I sometimes see Spellstorm CW run up to giant and use steal time,
and then giant swings and kills CW in one hit.
If you never played a MoF CW, now is a good time to start.
MoF CW can be played effectively at max range. No more steal time.
No need to stand next to giants. Safely dps,buff,debuff at far range.

more renegades are also needed.
I often play my DC in group content, and it's very nice to have backup heals.
Healing should not always be "someone else's job".
DC/OP are not perfect and they appreciate some help with heals.
When playing without a dedicated healer,
the heals from a renegade CW are sometimes just enough to help the party survive (without a healer).

Please dont be selfish and expect someone else to do all healing.
Backup heals can be the difference between a perfectly smooth run and a not so smooth run.
And please remember to use ray of enfeeblement on bosses.

More MoF Renegade CW please!

Of course. The DPS CW is an invalidated, relatively underpowered, squishy class. There is a striker paragon for CW that is DPS, nerfed to the ground 2 years ago, untouched since then, and a very poor option for any of the recent content, compared to the top 2 DPS classes. The DEVs should be fixing the problem, rather then everyone abandoning one of the loved Neverwinter options to become MoF.
DPS TRs and SWs could do with some love too.

If you were a DEV balancing your DPS class options, you'd expect that perhaps the top DPS option would be balanced out by being squishy, or some other issues - but no, the DEVs have allowed the game to evolve to the point where the outstanding DPS, the best survivability, and the best speed is all concentrated in one DPS class, closely followed by another, and leaving the other classes to suffer badly.
Personally, while I understand that you much prefer a MoF/support over a SpellStorm/DPS, I don't think it's fair to ask people to switch to a paragon that is psychologically different in it's game play, differently geared, different stats, differently enchanted, differently feated and maybe with a different race, when optimized - just because the DEVs to nothing to properly support the paragon choices that they offer. Why not ask the DEVs to fix their class balancing instead?

I play both DPS and Buffer/Debuffer on my CW. I do not swap all that much...

Yes a MoF Buffer vs SS DPS will have different personals, encounters, at wills and maybe dailies selected which a loadout can manage but the only thing I really change on my CW is my primary artifact. I go with Sigil of Devoted over to Lantern of Revelation. Both are used on both character so again, loadout swaps this for me.

Going MoF Rene/Thaum you can still get spell twisting for quicker encounters. By using Swath along with Critical Conflag I am able to keep Smolder up on more targets to increase the group DPS. I also go with a wider focus on buffing my team or myself, so anything to buff my group for feats is selected vs feats focused on increasing my personal damage.

My MoF Buffer has a 100% crit chance ensure that enemies always have smolder resulting in the whole team getting the 20% damage bonus from Swath. Add to this, the Chaos Magic capstone feat along with other buffing feats and my character is really helping the group out in damage. I also do well for damage, around 60-70% of the top DPS if I run with my normal group.

The best way to play a MoF buffer is going more recovery and being a Rene/ Opp to ensure that you get 100% up time on CA but I do not have a high enough recovery to properly ensure a 100% up time on CA so for now I am using CC for personal damage and to ensure a 100% up time on smolder.

I like my CW buffer...he still can help the group out moreso than just a standard DPS...If the group is 1 tank, 1 healer and 3 DPS...Now....if all 3 DPS are equal in ability to similar damage it is in my best interest to go buffer as this would provide the other 2 DPS a buff in their total damage by 20% and my damage loss of around 30% is less felt given they get a buff of 20% plus any other benefit chaos magic provides which could be another 30%. Also when I run as a buffer I swap out one of my companions to add the jagged blade so my summoned companion can do a debuff along with using the lantern for additional debuffing.

Overall I like how my CW buffer plays out. I am not a full on buffer as I can do good damage but I do enough buffing to help my team and sometimes that is all that is needed to get over some obstacles in this game.

rjc9000

mebengalsfan#9264 said:

Also when I run as a buffer I swap out one of my companions to add the jagged blade so my summoned companion can do a debuff along with using the lantern for additional debuffing.

Jagged Dancing Blade debuff (companion) does not work for your teammates, as per @sharpedge's and @michela123's testings.

https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1226061/jagged-dancing-blade

Get yourself a Faia Embureem Dancing Shield, or Ambush Drake, or sword trio comp, or Harper Bard instead.

thefabricant

rjc9000 said:

mebengalsfan#9264 said:

Also when I run as a buffer I swap out one of my companions to add the jagged blade so my summoned companion can do a debuff along with using the lantern for additional debuffing.

Jagged Dancing Blade debuff (companion) does not work for your teammates, as per @sharpedge's and @michela123's testings.

https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1226061/jagged-dancing-blade

Get yourself a Faia Embureem Dancing Shield, or Ambush Drake, or sword trio comp, or Harper Bard instead.

@rjc9000 I am really starting to wonder who this @sharpedge is...

niadan

Wondering more WHERE this SHARPEDGE is. Probably ENGAGED in some relationship building activity...at least from what @rjc9000 hints at.

mebengalsfan

Has anyone tested it since? That test is now well over a year old and the devs have done plenty of adjustments to the game. I wonder if it has been fixed or adjusted.

As for the sellsword...Normally I do not see my bonding proc due to how slow the attacks are on all three of the so called sellsword, rebel merc and con artist. They all seem to take their time to get there and fight and by the time they swing most of the time enemies are down. The expection being boss and when they do fight a boss they are usually dead. WOW great companion.

That has been my experience and I have a legendary one on my DC and I have a purple one on my GF and CW. They die to quick and if they don't die they take forever to attack. Very sad companion IMO....yeah their debuff is nice when they don't die or actually attack.

niadan

I do not have one or I would test it for you. But since YOU have one, and recommend it, maybe you could test it and let us all know if it has changed.

mebengalsfan

niadan said:

I do not have one or I would test it for you. But since YOU have one, and recommend it, maybe you could test it and let us all know if it has changed.

Nope..instead I swapped my main companion over to a Sell Sword due to acquiring the needed companion gear in Gambit. Took a few runs but now I have the appropriate companion gear for my sell sword.