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PvE Loot system and player satisfaction
metalicum1
Member Posts: 200 Arc User
First of all, this is not a rant about drop rates. Second of all, I don't really know where to post this, but it is a PvE feedback so I guess it belongs here (I am sure it will be moved/removed if it doesn't belong here). Third of all, I play on PS4 for about a year, but I believe this is relevant to all platforms with no difference. Fourth, this is not just a complaint, I propose some solution. Fifth, there might be similar posts hidden somewhere in the forums. Sixth, I'm not a native of English, so please be tolerant. Now to the point.
Neverwinter has probably the worst loot system I've ever seen in a video game (in fact the worst possible system that can be). Now before you agree or disagree and go hamster crazy (that includes the development team/community manager/whoever might read this), let me argue why do I think that is the case and what is the result of the system.
First, what is the point of loot? There are 3 aspects of loot that makes you put it in a game: 1) giving players an impression of progression 2) giving players actual progress, and 3) giving players a goal/satisfaction from acquiring something (it really doesn't matter the slightest whether it's an cosmetic or a BiS item - the desire and satisfaction is the same and might be based on everything from looks to rarity/power).
The only aspect of loot that is fulfilled by the current system if the first one. We eventually grind better/stronger items and that creates an impression of progress. Why an impression and not an actual progress? Because the loot you get does not change your gameplay in terms of your inputs. You spam the same spells if you get upgraded relic gear, nothing changes (of course, you get to a new dungeon possibly, but that doesn't change your inputs). The only thing that really changes are the numbers. The gameplay loop, the inputs, the skills and mechanics are the same no mater what loot you have. Actual progress would be if we get an item that is designed to completely change your inputs, for example you can get an item that transforms your healing into dmg (or something like that, it's an example, not an actual real suggestion). There are no interesting items in the game, there are just stat upgrades. However, Neverwinter seems to be designed that way and it might be impossible to change that, so for the sake of this argument, let's ignore this aspect and focus more on the third, the most important one.
The way how we get items in this game is extremely successful in removing all satisfaction from the actual loot. We never have "THE MOMENT". We never experience the pure satisfaction of a moment, one singular second when we get an upgrade from loot, we look at it, put it on immediately and feel like a monster (+5 rings is a notable exception). Instead, we get something like an unrestored armor which requires 50 Lanolin, 30k of something or what not. The moment is gone, instead, we go through a frustrating moment of realization what we must do before we can enjoy a marginal impression of progress. This is how you kill a game, by removing what is supposed to be the most intense and positive moment, and turn it into a marginal frustration. Why is this so important? Because that's the last satisfaction you get. Once you get everything, the game doesn't begin, the game ends, there is nothing left to do. So when you don't feel satisfaction when you "beat" the game, there is zero reasons to play it (yes, in grinding gear ARPG games, you "beat" the game when you get the loot, not when you kill a boss. We don't even have week raids like in WoW).
The same mistake repeats in the new Mod 11. The only really interesting loot in that mode is the new weapon set (for the sake of argument, let's pretend they are actually desirable even when you have Relic weapons, which in most cases is not true, but let's do that anyway. And let me completely forget how pathetic is that we never get items that creates new builds, new playstyles, just stat upgrades so that you see higher numbers). My questions are: How satisfying is to get them? Is there a one singular moment of pure happiness when you see the reward in the chest/reward screen? Do you feel anything when you get them? Surprise, vibrating satisfaction? No, nothing like that. You stare at them in the campaign store, you know exactly when you get them, you can even calculate the exact date. And of course, once you get them, you still need to restore them and refine them.
How do you even come up with this? How hard you tried to chop the upgrade satisfaction so that you get this system from which we get absolutely no satisfaction? The moment when you finally grind everything, restore them, refine them and all that, is not satisfactory. It's more of a "ok, f*** the pain is over, I can finally quit the game".
This system might work. It might. But only if there is a reason to play after you get the loot. For example, if you drop a certain specific item that will allow you to get into a content that is openly competitive and not based on loot, but that would require a completely different game design. In a PvE focused game like Neverwinter, this system is only frustrating. If you wonder why the game is dying and why the most prominent players just quit, this is one of the biggest reasons. Grinding gear game in which it is almost frustrating to get end game loot. (*slow clap*)
I promised you a solution at the beginning, so here it comes (well, this is not so easy to solve). Of course, it would be super easy to say "rework it" and be done with it, but I understand that there is economics involved and that the most obvious solutions are usually unreasonable due to the costs of development processes. One of those obvious solutions would be to completely rework item system so that it involves not just an impression of progress, but also an actual progress, so essentially to introduce the second aspect of loot into the game. This might be impossible due to the cost of such improvement. Another solution might be to tone down the refinement and restoration and put all, ALL loot into dungeon chests, and instead of torturing players with refine and restore, give us cosmetics to buy and make more money that way (honestly for a game that old there are so little beautiful outfits, and yes F2P games can survive solely on cosmetics before you say it's impossible to make money like that). Even this might be problematic though.
Is there an easy solution to this? no, not really. There might be something which would at least improve the situation marginally. Give us more complete, finished things to the drop table. Put there a legendary weapon, put there a rank 12 enchant, put there a Trans Negation, put there something that I will scream about when I drop it, and I can put it on immediately. Even dropping a mount, selling it, and buying something you need is not that satisfactory as to drop it your own. We are human beings, we play for emotions, not computers who play for higher numbers. Give us back our MOMENT of satisfaction. Don't just give us unrestored relic gear that is of a wrong type to begin with. This is not enough to solve the problem, but at least we will have more chances to drop something without the frustration that come from grinding lanolin so that you can actually use your drop. Also, give us a new gear that allows different BiS, different playstyles and builds, and let us drop some of it.
If this does not change, the game will die, and the only players left will be some super duper bots farming Heroic Encounters.
Neverwinter has probably the worst loot system I've ever seen in a video game (in fact the worst possible system that can be). Now before you agree or disagree and go hamster crazy (that includes the development team/community manager/whoever might read this), let me argue why do I think that is the case and what is the result of the system.
First, what is the point of loot? There are 3 aspects of loot that makes you put it in a game: 1) giving players an impression of progression 2) giving players actual progress, and 3) giving players a goal/satisfaction from acquiring something (it really doesn't matter the slightest whether it's an cosmetic or a BiS item - the desire and satisfaction is the same and might be based on everything from looks to rarity/power).
The only aspect of loot that is fulfilled by the current system if the first one. We eventually grind better/stronger items and that creates an impression of progress. Why an impression and not an actual progress? Because the loot you get does not change your gameplay in terms of your inputs. You spam the same spells if you get upgraded relic gear, nothing changes (of course, you get to a new dungeon possibly, but that doesn't change your inputs). The only thing that really changes are the numbers. The gameplay loop, the inputs, the skills and mechanics are the same no mater what loot you have. Actual progress would be if we get an item that is designed to completely change your inputs, for example you can get an item that transforms your healing into dmg (or something like that, it's an example, not an actual real suggestion). There are no interesting items in the game, there are just stat upgrades. However, Neverwinter seems to be designed that way and it might be impossible to change that, so for the sake of this argument, let's ignore this aspect and focus more on the third, the most important one.
The way how we get items in this game is extremely successful in removing all satisfaction from the actual loot. We never have "THE MOMENT". We never experience the pure satisfaction of a moment, one singular second when we get an upgrade from loot, we look at it, put it on immediately and feel like a monster (+5 rings is a notable exception). Instead, we get something like an unrestored armor which requires 50 Lanolin, 30k of something or what not. The moment is gone, instead, we go through a frustrating moment of realization what we must do before we can enjoy a marginal impression of progress. This is how you kill a game, by removing what is supposed to be the most intense and positive moment, and turn it into a marginal frustration. Why is this so important? Because that's the last satisfaction you get. Once you get everything, the game doesn't begin, the game ends, there is nothing left to do. So when you don't feel satisfaction when you "beat" the game, there is zero reasons to play it (yes, in grinding gear ARPG games, you "beat" the game when you get the loot, not when you kill a boss. We don't even have week raids like in WoW).
The same mistake repeats in the new Mod 11. The only really interesting loot in that mode is the new weapon set (for the sake of argument, let's pretend they are actually desirable even when you have Relic weapons, which in most cases is not true, but let's do that anyway. And let me completely forget how pathetic is that we never get items that creates new builds, new playstyles, just stat upgrades so that you see higher numbers). My questions are: How satisfying is to get them? Is there a one singular moment of pure happiness when you see the reward in the chest/reward screen? Do you feel anything when you get them? Surprise, vibrating satisfaction? No, nothing like that. You stare at them in the campaign store, you know exactly when you get them, you can even calculate the exact date. And of course, once you get them, you still need to restore them and refine them.
How do you even come up with this? How hard you tried to chop the upgrade satisfaction so that you get this system from which we get absolutely no satisfaction? The moment when you finally grind everything, restore them, refine them and all that, is not satisfactory. It's more of a "ok, f*** the pain is over, I can finally quit the game".
This system might work. It might. But only if there is a reason to play after you get the loot. For example, if you drop a certain specific item that will allow you to get into a content that is openly competitive and not based on loot, but that would require a completely different game design. In a PvE focused game like Neverwinter, this system is only frustrating. If you wonder why the game is dying and why the most prominent players just quit, this is one of the biggest reasons. Grinding gear game in which it is almost frustrating to get end game loot. (*slow clap*)
I promised you a solution at the beginning, so here it comes (well, this is not so easy to solve). Of course, it would be super easy to say "rework it" and be done with it, but I understand that there is economics involved and that the most obvious solutions are usually unreasonable due to the costs of development processes. One of those obvious solutions would be to completely rework item system so that it involves not just an impression of progress, but also an actual progress, so essentially to introduce the second aspect of loot into the game. This might be impossible due to the cost of such improvement. Another solution might be to tone down the refinement and restoration and put all, ALL loot into dungeon chests, and instead of torturing players with refine and restore, give us cosmetics to buy and make more money that way (honestly for a game that old there are so little beautiful outfits, and yes F2P games can survive solely on cosmetics before you say it's impossible to make money like that). Even this might be problematic though.
Is there an easy solution to this? no, not really. There might be something which would at least improve the situation marginally. Give us more complete, finished things to the drop table. Put there a legendary weapon, put there a rank 12 enchant, put there a Trans Negation, put there something that I will scream about when I drop it, and I can put it on immediately. Even dropping a mount, selling it, and buying something you need is not that satisfactory as to drop it your own. We are human beings, we play for emotions, not computers who play for higher numbers. Give us back our MOMENT of satisfaction. Don't just give us unrestored relic gear that is of a wrong type to begin with. This is not enough to solve the problem, but at least we will have more chances to drop something without the frustration that come from grinding lanolin so that you can actually use your drop. Also, give us a new gear that allows different BiS, different playstyles and builds, and let us drop some of it.
If this does not change, the game will die, and the only players left will be some super duper bots farming Heroic Encounters.
Aris Meyde CW MoF Renegade
[PS4] Alliance - House Stargaryen
[PS4] Alliance - House Stargaryen
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If you want to have a big awesome drop u can always buy lockboxes i guess
In SoMI, neverwinter have lost several high profile players, the PS4 version was like a graveyard before mod 11, whole guilds dying off like it's Influenza 1918. So it might be far from dying off, but it is definitely not far from loosing massive amounts of players. I would argue the loot system is essential to this. Loosing motivation means quitting the game.
[PS4] Alliance - House Stargaryen
The data from Steam Charts are clear. of course, this is not official or confirmed, but I think it gives a good picture of what is. 2017 is all time low.
http://steamcharts.com/app/109600#1y
[PS4] Alliance - House Stargaryen
Sharp left due to actions from other players but since returned.
Kali left because of drama related to the DC changes post mod 10.
[PS4] Alliance - House Stargaryen
My argument would be to make the campaigns more difficult and put the weapons at the end of it. When you defeat the appropriate boss in the River District they hand you the weapon at green. Now you can continue running the campaign stuff to get all of the weapons and boons or you can happily sit there with just the set you wanted.
If I have to defeat one of the bosses 15 times to get my weapon to blue, I'm cool with that. I know what I have to do to get it. What I hate is just hammering along doing the same thing over and over waiting to get blessed by RNGesus. That isn't fun for me.
For example - I have no idea how many times I've run VT... I have pulled the dreadnaught 4 times, other than that it has always been elemental seals and one piece of salvage. Other dungeons are similar. I haven't even been getting the overloads from eLoL that I used to. Not sure why they are suddenly so hard to come by.
And the fact that I average 30-50 preservation wards to upgrade something that claims to be a 20% chance... there are some serious math issues going on here.
It's the long running series of disappointments that cause people to lose interest, coupled with the lack of "wins." Eventually the frustration builds and human nature is to look elsewhere for the sense of satisfaction.
Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
[PS4] Alliance - House Stargaryen
Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
Overall i prefer less rng but thats just my opinion. Maybe we should start a poll about that?
I still think that getting unrestored weapons from a campaign store is probably the most boring way how to receive end game loot. Compering it to other Grinding games like Diablo 2 (not an MMO but the gameplay loop in the endgame was strikingly similar if not the same) the loot here is just boring.
[PS4] Alliance - House Stargaryen
[PS4] Alliance - House Stargaryen
The loot system in Neverwinter in the present state is better than the loot system was up to mod 10. Mod 10.5 improved loot drop and added new higher IL gear to older content.
As for the original poster comment about a healing spell doing damage, that is in the game in form of campaigns boons. Campaigns provide you the unique functions you want like healing spells doing damage.
As for unique builds and spamming ability 1, 2, 3 is very common in MMOs. All MMOs I have played have very limited rotations and builds for best builds. What Neverwinter does will is synergy of classes working off each other for group buffs, debuffs, etc... to improve the group overall damage potential.
As for using dropped gear to build up your toon. That is a bad idea from experience. I rather have a system that allows players to grind out for campaign marks and use those to buy the gear. It is more awarding long term as you work towards your gear vs. running content 300 times and still not getting what you need for your build.
Since Neverwinter is a pay to advance game, I would like to see the older weapons (twisted and lower) and gear (all gear below 150 IL) boxes that can be purchased in the zen store once a new content is released. These gear boxes would allow players to select the gear or artifact weapon for a set zen price. This way, Cryptic can earn money from players who are willing to sink money into the game for better gear and weapons and not rely on luck or many hours grinding it out if they choice to skip it.
The loot system in NW is designed to help earn AD and use the AD to buy what you want in the AH or convert it to zen and buy what you want from the zen store. This design IMO is better than other MMO games. It is not perfect by any means but it is better just needing RNG to get what you want.
The one thing I would like to see removed is the bound to account for artifacts, mounts and companions you get in treasure chest. All of these should be bound on equipped. I have gotten some decent artifacts and companions out of the treasure chest and would have made some decent amount of AD if those were not bound to account. That is the one thing I would like fixed that I believe would improve the current loot system of Neverwinter.
Game play wise, what you see in Neverwinter you see in other MMOs. That much is probably not going to change. Well actually, soon we will have loadouts which is really cool feature as it will allow players much more flexibility in how we play.
I do think that having gear, artifacts or other things drop that we would want to build our character around would be great. Right now there isn't a lot of variation in end game builds. I do know that when people pick up the owlbear cub, they tend to respec and change out their gear to maximize on it's potential. There need to be more things like that. A helm or artifact that once you get it - it's so amazing that you are willing to rebuild your character around it. Or it changes the functionality of something that you normally do. Something similar to the HW boon on the pally. Normally it's just a heal - but slap on this chest piece and boom all of your heals also do damage (obviously that's just an example, not and actual suggestion).
We need amazing things for doing amazing things - a gift from the gods with 5 end game campaigns at 100% or something. Which tabletop wise would make sense. If a hero goes out - saves Sharandar, defeats the cult of the dragon, puts down Tiamat (a god), Slays Valendria and saves the dread ring, then wanders off to icewindale to solve all of their problems, slays Kessel, moves on to Brynn to solve the ring of winter issue - generally at some point their god would take notice of their deeds and at least give them an appropriate blessing. And I'm not talking giving the Tanks a set of Trickster boots bound to character for their trouble.
Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
In that "almost a year" - not a single person that I know has pulled a legendary mount. You would think in a year a group of 12-15 people opening at least one box a day - at least one of us would have gotten a yellow mount.
Oh and I've kept up with my dungeon loot tracking - I am not even more depressed than I was before when I suspected that the drops were garbage - because now I KNOW that I'm not getting anything for all of my time
Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
Not sure what you are running but best loot drops for me have come from Epic Spiders and Castle Never, T1 dungeons seem to have a lower % of dropping better loot, which makes sense.
With this in mind I have started to run more t2 dungeons and have seen an improved loot drops for me. I know yesterday you got a lantern out of a run, IMO that is a pretty decent loot pick up for a feeder or to be used on another character if needed.
My irk is that some players seem to be highly lucky with keys. It seems as if once you get a legendary mount, you are bound to get them more often. That logic and flow needs to change. This game needs to have a bad luck counter for both treasure chest and LB that over time based on LB and treasure opened, you get an increase in luck until you get lucky to land a rare drop, than it resets. This would greatly improve players discontent with RNG.
200+ keys over the weekend and I saw nothing come up. Talking to someone I met in a dungeon, 20 keys and 2 legendary mounts. H
Bengal - you've I'm sure heard that JT and I are tracking our loot drops:
So here are the results so far of my loot tracking. 75 total dungeons/skirmishes tracked. Most of these (not including FBI or IG) were done by clicking all of the dungeons at once and see which one we end up in (you've been sucked into some of these). Other than FBI and CN - I opened only the epic dungeon key chest.
CN - 14 Runs - all salvage with only one ring at +4 (which I salvaged as well) - Opened both chests on every run
eGWD - 2 runs - Bloodstained shirt on second run
eLoL - 14 Runs - Winterwolf companion at blue (BtA)and Cambist Gauntlets (salvage)
eToS - 12 runs - Lifesilk and Lantern at Green
Malabog - 7 runs - Cloak of Seld at green
VT - 21 runs (this is apparently what everyone runs because we get sucked into this dungeon the most) Dreadnaught and Valindra's Belt at green
FBI - 1 run - all salvage or relics (voninblod)
IG gold runs - 4 - one +4 bit of companion gear the rest was salvage
Doing some math off of the amount of salvage, CN has the best AD return. eToS and eGWD are tied at second with the average salvage being enough to cover the key (not counting in the amount you get for just running a dungeon).
eLoL comes in third because at least 35% of the time you get an overload in addition to the junk.
After looking at it more closely - eLoL, Malabog and eToS seem to give a "non standard" drop averaging around every 7 runs or so.
VT is by far the worst dungeon to run as the salvage is generally only about 2k and that is all you get, the "non-standard" drop rate is also apparently far lower.
I'm still tracking though - this is just what I have so far. JT is also tracking so I'm curious to see what his results are since he runs twice the number of dungeons I do.
Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
If you look at what you get in Epic Spiders and Epic Wolf Den you can see that these dungeons have better loot drop tables. CN is the place to go for salvage even without a key than it is followed by Epic Spiders.
I ran Spiders three times on my tank. All three had an extra piece of lot I could sell in the AH. Ran 5 on my Cleric and 3 on my CW with an average being around 1 piece of extra loot every 3rd
Dungeons that require a 2k item level should award better loot as the difficulty is higher.
Other mmo lock you out of count for loot each day or week after beating it. Having the ability to run content over and over and over as long as you have a key is really decent system. Who is actually buying keys? I get 3 a day and a free one and rarely get to use 2 on all characters. With that said, even one free key can work in a players favor long term by simply planning his or her runs.
The issue for me with rng is this....I had way better luck when my membership was expired or close to it. Now that I renewed, I noticed my luck of getting the really good drop or items from the lb has dropped.
Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
this eclecticism is just boring as hell.....
put some refining points in the daily dungeon chests or something like that --->>> especially for T2 Dungeons).
I think a lot of people and me can live with a extra random drop "Companion/Mount/Artifact" etc....thats nice but the overall drops are ridiculous. My guild and me did a lot of runs in FBI and its just offpissing how often 10 white relics accompanied with seals dropped as a regluar chest drop. I dont expect every run an air archon for example but 4 runs in a row with relics and a green thaumaturgic stone cant be the way.....BTW - why green stuff in endgame dungeons? Whole guild did about - for minimum - 500 Runs FBI since March and no MANTICORE TALON from HATI? Does it still exist?
And so on...
Why is there no "legendary loot like the Sword from Drufi as a Skin"? Or a winged cloak from Hati as possible drop from itself? Lostmauth -->> Dragon Egg - special Dragon Colours to dye with and so on.....
From chests and the bosses itself? More creativity please!
The whole guild isnt running Spellplague so far cause of the "Your valiant efforts have proven victorious --- >> 20 abandoned treasures and 50 Seals/Rank 5 enchantments --- this is pure cynicism/effrontery - nothing else!
Whats going to happen with Castle Never when the Orcus Shard appears in the new lockbox artifact packs?
Any reason to run it? Maybe for Azure/Radiant 8....... cheers
What i like is the stuff like Dragon Loyalist Visage/Zulkir s Dreadnought etc....that would be nice to approach in a good good way.....but they have to do it!
If I were put in charge of redoing the loot in the epic dungeon chests-
Malabogs: Salvage of 2500+, a rank 5 enchant, a thalmaturgic stone (we are in Sharandar), fey seals, fey type enchant shard, a 1 in 7 chance at getting something additional unbound or BtA
VT: Salvage of 3500+, a rank 5 enchant, a MARK of some type (this is the dread ring), shard of terror enchant or shard of dread enchant, 1 in 7 chance of getting something additional unbound or BtA
eLoL: Salvage of 4500+, a rank 5 enchant, a Refinement stone, overload, chance at Pages or Linu's favors, 1 in 7 chance at something additional unbound or BtA
eToS, eCC, eGWD: Salvage of 6K+, Rank 7-9 enchant 1 in 6 chance of getting something additional unbound of btA
FBI - no relics below green, no enchants below 7
I'm bored and they didn't listen last time.
How many people have stood watching the final cut scene in eLoL and said "I want that mask!" or wanted the chest piece that the chick was wearing in eToS... there's nothing really snazzy about Valindra but having some armor that looks like it's made of bones like the bone golumn would look cool. Lots of nifty things that could be done... instead we have people running around wearing the weapon transmutes they got out of CN like they are real weapons... because you know - most of the time when you kill a big nasty boss you get something cool out of it and the idea that all you picked up was salvage is unfathomable to some. I'm also a little bit over most of the new armor making my people look like bad manga. I was excited about the lifesilk but still have no pants after the "sneaky alteration" they pulled on me.
Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP