Phlegetos VS BoH

tenetomb · April 2017

I was a little bit bored of my SB so i wanted to give a try to HB and i wanted to know which daily was the best on single target.
So i made some tests with 100% crit and test pact blade on preview.

Here are the results :

Without warlock's curse :

With warlock's curse :

As you can see, Flames of Phlegetos completely beats Brood of Hadar since its damages seem biggers and it procs Creeping Death a lot more.

Then i have a question : why do i see everyone using Brood of Hadar if Flames of Phlegetos is better ?

hadestemplar · April 2017

tenetomb said:
I was a little bit bored of my SB so i wanted to give a try to HB and i wanted to know which daily was the best on single target.
So i made some tests with 100% crit and test pact blade on preview.

Here are the results :

As you can see, Flames of Phlegetos completely beats Brood of Hadar since its damages seem biggers and it procs Creeping Death a lot more.

Then i have a question : why do i see everyone using Brood of Hadar if Flames of Phlegetos is better ?

For furry all powers are best who proc creeping death. However BoH are great for non furry warlock due it's CC element and burst dmg.
Also BoH is not purely dmg dealing Daily power.

And why players use BoH more than Phlegetos?
Well due casting speed, and CC element..

If players want full dmg focused daily power they will pick gate of hell(HB), or IS (SB).

werdandi · April 2017

tenetomb said:

Then i have a question : why do i see everyone using Brood of Hadar if Flames of Phlegetos is better ?

Because we are sheep ?

... I did not use the test blade when I tried the different dailies, but I remember that BoH was superior (to Flames); however, I did not check the creeping death importance because my test was on a rotation including the same encounters but not the same dailies. Well with no test blade, there is a bias.
Now I need to test it again. Thank you for pointing this out

tenetomb · April 2017

bloodyspamer said:
For furry all powers are best who proc creeping death. However BoH are great for non furry warlock due it's CC element and burst dmg.
Also BoH is not purely dmg dealing Daily power.
And why players use BoH more than Phlegetos?
Well due casting speed, and CC element.. If players want full dmg focused daily power they will pick gate of hell(HB), or IS (SB).

Ok thanks for explanation !
You are right for BoH but i can tell you that if i want single target dmg focused daily as HB, i'll pick up Phlegetos instead of Gates of Hell.

werdandi#8366 said:
Because we are sheep ?

Ok good reason xD

jaime4312 · April 2017

tenetomb said:
I was a little bit bored of my SB so i wanted to give a try to HB and i wanted to know which daily was the best on single target.
So i made some tests with 100% crit and test pact blade on preview.

Here are the results :

Without warlock's curse :

With warlock's curse :

As you can see, Flames of Phlegetos completely beats Brood of Hadar since its damages seem biggers and it procs Creeping Death a lot more.

Then i have a question : why do i see everyone using Brood of Hadar if Flames of Phlegetos is better ?

Tyvm for testing that out, wow, now that was unexpected! I think the reason I don't use it is the casting animation takes longer than BoH's and for some reason it seemed to deal less damage xD I will definitely test this out later on when having the chance too, too bad there's no ACT on console so it's good you did this man

Would you mind testing ACC + FoE and HR + HoB spam vs Foe + NPNM + HR spam?
What would be the difference in dps?

By the way, is it true that FoE artifact off hand bonus does not work?

tenetomb · April 2017

jaime4312#3760 said:
Tyvm for testing that out, wow, now that was unexpected! I think the reason I don't use it is the casting animation takes longer than BoH's and for some reason it seemed to deal less damage xD I will definitely test this out later on when having the chance too, too bad there's no ACT on console so it's good you did this man

Would you mind testing ACC + FoE and HR + HoB spam vs Foe + NPNM + HR spam?
What would be the difference in dps?

By the way, is it true that FoE artifact off hand bonus does not work?

I didn't do all the tests you ask but i can tell you that :

- HR is better than HoB in any case. Don't have the ACT anymore but already did the test in the past.
- The only reason NPNM could be good imo would be when you reach 200% debuff cap without FoE.

So, i tested ACC only VS ACC & NPNM :

(sorry, this is in french, only saw it after posting it. HR is "Réprimande infernale")

ACC only :

ACC & NPNM :

This test is a little bit tricky because i didn't have combat advantage on the first ACT.
But i did this for a reason :

HR deals nearly the same damage on both tests which means NPNM is actually decreasing HR dps !

So, i wouldn't be using it at all if i was you ! ^^

tenetomb · April 2017

jaime4312#3760 said:
Tyvm for testing that out, wow, now that was unexpected! I think the reason I don't use it is the casting animation takes longer than BoH's and for some reason it seemed to deal less damage xD I will definitely test this out later on when having the chance too, too bad there's no ACT on console so it's good you did this man

Would you mind testing ACC + FoE and HR + HoB spam vs Foe + NPNM + HR spam?
What would be the difference in dps?

By the way, is it true that FoE artifact off hand bonus does not work?

I didn't do these tests but i can tell you some things :

- HR is better than HoB In any case (don't have the ACT anymore but already did the test in the past).
- For me, NPNM could only be good when you reach 200% debuff cap without FoE

So, i tested ACC only VS ACC + NPNM :

Sorry, this is in french. Only saw it after posting. HR = "Réprimande Infernale"

ACC only :

ACC + NPNM :

This test is a little bit tricky because i didn't have combat advantage on ACC only.
But i did this for a reason :

HR deals nearly the same damage ! Which means NPNM is actually decreasing HR's dps.

So, i wouldn't be using it at all to dps if i was you !

hadestemplar · April 2017

tenetomb said:

jaime4312#3760 said:
Tyvm for testing that out, wow, now that was unexpected! I think the reason I don't use it is the casting animation takes longer than BoH's and for some reason it seemed to deal less damage xD I will definitely test this out later on when having the chance too, too bad there's no ACT on console so it's good you did this man

Would you mind testing ACC + FoE and HR + HoB spam vs Foe + NPNM + HR spam?
What would be the difference in dps?

By the way, is it true that FoE artifact off hand bonus does not work?
I didn't do these tests but i can tell you some things :

- HR is better than HoB In any case (don't have the ACT anymore but already did the test in the past).
- For me, NPNM could only be good when you reach 200% debuff cap without FoE

So, i tested ACC only VS ACC + NPNM :

Sorry, this is in french. Only saw it after posting. HR = "Réprimande Infernale"

ACC only :

This test is a little bit tricky because i didn't have combat advantage on ACC only.
But i did this for a reason :

HR deals nearly the same damage ! Which means NPNM is actually decreasing HR's dps.

So, i wouldn't be using it at all to dps if i was you !

NP,NM simply convert DoT at will to Burst. It's not like it increase it's dmg output over all. The whole idea making HR to burst is to give HB path at will which could compete with SB's at will.
Now unlike SB. Hellbringer have option to choose, to have burst or DoT. In trash/short fight burst powers are better. But in long fight DoT is better..

Also NP,NM give CA which is good, also have artifact feature> 5% DR reduction.
So NP,NM is neither best, neither worst class feature. It's more depending on situation

tenetomb · April 2017

bloodyspamer said:
NP,NM simply convert DoT at will to Burst. It's not like it increase it's dmg output over all. The whole idea making HR to burst is to give HB path at will which could compete with SB's at will.
Now unlike SB. Hellbringer have option to choose, to have burst or DoT. In trash/short fight burst powers are better. But in long fight DoT is better..

Also NP,NM give CA which is good, also have artifact feature> 5% DR reduction.
So NP,NM is neither best, neither worst class feature. It's more depending on situation

Yeah but when you play with NPNM, you don't benefit from Gatekeeper's empowerment anymore.
You can see on ACT's that dps suffers from this on long fights.
Moreover, on bosses, if you reach 200% debuff cap, the artifact feature will be as useless as FoE passive.
So i prefer slotting ACC and keeping FoE (or anything else) which doesn't decrease my dps.

On trashes, you'll prefer getting FoE debuff + Infernal wrath triggered by ACC + ACC artifact feature.

Overall, i don't see how NPNM could give better dps instead of ACC or FoE in any case.

It's only good to buff party (CA + artifact feature) which is already nice !

hadestemplar · April 2017

tenetomb said:

Yeah but when you play with NPNM, you don't benefit from Gatekeeper's empowerment anymore.
You can see on ACT's that dps suffers from this on long fights.
Moreover, on bosses, if you reach 200% debuff cap, the artifact feature will be as useless as FoE passive.
So i prefer slotting ACC and keeping FoE (or anything else) which doesn't decrease my dps.

On trashes, you'll prefer getting FoE debuff + Infernal wrath triggered by ACC + ACC artifact feature.

Overall, i don't see how NPNM could give better dps instead of ACC or FoE in any case.

It's only good to buff party (CA + artifact feature) which is already nice !

I am not furry spec SW

Also I know about Gatekeepers feat interaction with NPNM.. Noticed that during mod 10 when SW where balanced(attempted).
Also NPNM is great if you class is focused on crit and CA. Otherwise it's not so good. So the ones who build Warlock for Owlbear cub companion effect.(power build) then this Class feature is not good..
Also this class feature is mostly for trash cleaning.. And if heavy/harsh/hard fight occurs, you switch to other class features.. Now ACC I don't use In boss fight.. Why I need get chance apply Lesser curse if there is only 1 target in total? I better apply curse manually :P
So I pick Flame of Empowerment, and if NPNM don't give big benefits I change it for Prince of hell, or even shadow walk for movement speed increase(dodging) and life steal increase....

AS for infernal wrath feat....
I plan check how this feat would work combo with FoE + ACC , + accursed soul + curse bite.

jaime4312 · April 2017

@tenetomb what I meant was ACC + FoE and HR (with gaterkeeper's empowerment fury feat) with all its ticks doing damage (so no refreshing the dot until it ends) + (not vs) HoB spam while HR does its dot then rinse and repeat vs HR spam with NPNM. Which method yields more dps over say, 3 minutes?

To make it more accurate, PoP could be used but not placed on targets (so Atwill damage is the only dps you do) and you still get the 24% damage boost from it (if feated with Power of the nine hells).

Could you try that out with ACT? That would be very interesting to see

I could understand some of the French words as they look similar to how they'd be in Spanish, like morte rampante/muerte rampante, compensation infantile/compensación infantil, malédiction tyrannique/maldición tiránica etc

schietindebux · April 2017

I did exactly this. HR-spam with NPNM vs. HoB-spam + HR refresh.
Feats: NPNM+FoE (HR spam) vs. FoE and CA from companion by positioning (HoB spam+HR refresh), so both got Combat advantage.
I allready posted that my 100% crit Templock dealt more dps with HR-spam vs. HoB-spam+HR dot on a dummy...
But the difference was pretty small and if you take into account that you have to pop your encounter same as your dailies and HR-Dot may tick in between, you might do better going HoB+HR-Dot, especially using Lighning or Bilethorn (multiproc), at if you are in melee all time.
At range you might go better with NPNM/HR-spam imo.
Everyone seems to have his own experiences and they differ.
The initial damage from HR is about 15% + 85% Dot damage, taking NPNM you have 30%+ zero....

But again, all this might be completely theoretically because NPNM-HR deals a burst damage agains mobs that hit you similar to the inital damage as a "reflected damage", otherwise the Dot is refresehed in the normal version. So if that boss deals damage towards you, you deal damage back.
I really don´t know, if bosses like Storvald, Drufi, Turtle, Hati etc. get a significant ammount of damage from that Dot as a "reflected damage", wich would favor NPNM imo, maybe somone knows.

jaime4312 · April 2017

schietindebux said:
I did exactly this. HR-spam with NPNM vs. HoB-spam + HR refresh.
Feats: NPNM+FoE (HR spam) vs. FoE and CA from companion by positioning (HoB spam+HR refresh), so both got Combat advantage.
I allready posted that my 100% crit Templock dealt more dps with HR-spam vs. HoB-spam+HR dot on a dummy...
But the difference was pretty small and if you take into account that you have to pop your encounter same as your dailies and HR-Dot may tick in between, you might do better going HoB+HR-Dot, especially using Lighning or Bilethorn (multiproc), at if you are in melee all time.
At range you might go better with NPNM/HR-spam imo.
Everyone seems to have his own experiences and they differ.
The initial damage from HR is about 15% + 85% Dot damage, taking NPNM you have 30%+ zero....

But again, all this might be completely theoretically because NPNM-HR deals a burst damage agains mobs that hit you similar to the inital damage as a "reflected damage", otherwise the Dot is refresehed in the normal version. So if that boss deals damage towards you, you deal damage back.
I really don´t know, if bosses like Storvald, Drufi, Turtle, Hati etc. get a significant ammount of damage from that Dot as a "reflected damage", wich would favor NPNM imo, maybe somone knows.

That testing of yours sounds interesting. How much do you think fury capstone would change that NPNM+FoE (HR spam) vs. FoE and CA from companion by positioning (HoB spam+HR refresh) dps difference (with gatekeeper's empowerment that makes HR's dot deal 25% more damage)?

schietindebux · April 2017

jaime4312#3760 said:

schietindebux said:
I did exactly this. HR-spam with NPNM vs. HoB-spam + HR refresh.
Feats: NPNM+FoE (HR spam) vs. FoE and CA from companion by positioning (HoB spam+HR refresh), so both got Combat advantage.
I allready posted that my 100% crit Templock dealt more dps with HR-spam vs. HoB-spam+HR dot on a dummy...
But the difference was pretty small and if you take into account that you have to pop your encounter same as your dailies and HR-Dot may tick in between, you might do better going HoB+HR-Dot, especially using Lighning or Bilethorn (multiproc), at if you are in melee all time.
At range you might go better with NPNM/HR-spam imo.
Everyone seems to have his own experiences and they differ.
The initial damage from HR is about 15% + 85% Dot damage, taking NPNM you have 30%+ zero....

But again, all this might be completely theoretically because NPNM-HR deals a burst damage agains mobs that hit you similar to the inital damage as a "reflected damage", otherwise the Dot is refresehed in the normal version. So if that boss deals damage towards you, you deal damage back.
I really don´t know, if bosses like Storvald, Drufi, Turtle, Hati etc. get a significant ammount of damage from that Dot as a "reflected damage", wich would favor NPNM imo, maybe somone knows.
That testing of yours sounds interesting. How much do you think fury capstone would change that NPNM+FoE (HR spam) vs. FoE and CA from companion by positioning (HoB spam+HR refresh) dps difference (with gatekeeper's empowerment that makes HR's dot deal 25% more damage)?

That may equal out the difference I guess.

xs13red · April 2017

Flames will multiproc weapon enchantments(Lightning, Bilethorn). Brood will single proc enchantments. Flames feels to work better for lifesteal and templock. Gates of Helll is a sad spot-single proc and very short lived.

senticon · April 2017

I'm not experienced enough but very curious about these tests. Generally we manage to pop around 3-5 At-Wills before enc CD ends, and that with buffs like Pally's aura of Wisdom and etc. Usually we can blast more HRs. So, we get say 30+30+30% vs. 15+15+15+85% so numbers on DoT HR should look better, and that also frees up class feature slot. Best thing about NPNM is CA, but to measure, I'm really not sure if it's worth it or not... Any input?

schietindebux · April 2017

1. DOing trash it depends on your group.
If noone spends constant CA, go NPNM+offhand feat 5% debuff doing trash.
If you have constant CA (from clases like CW/GF/TR etc) go for anything else like ACC-offhand, shadowslip (that´s what I pick normally)

2. At boss ... it depends on the boss.
At Svardborg, DRUFI, Turtle, same as CN-bosses you can use NPNM, if you manage to spam HR in a high frequence, the difference is not that big in the end.
At Hati and all mSP bosses it´s better to go without NPNM.
NPNM is about a multiplier x1.2 on crits and x1.4 on non crits as a 24/7 critbuild.
If you spread HR on several targets, like adds at 1. boss mSP and tentakel/orbs at 3. boss, or HATI that pushes you all time or jump/flies etc. the DOT will be stronger.
..in the end stay with the DOT and you won´t do anything wrong.

senticon · April 2017

It seems like NPNM is quite situational thing, and I'm starting to reconsidering it in favor of Shadow Walk, which is quite situational too but seems more helpful to stay alive. But can somebody clearly explain, why Prince of Hell basically never suggested? Flat armor ignored and lifesteal bonus is bad?

Shadow Walk is great for mobility and LS bonus is very nice addition too, but deflection feels like a waste. Does SW ever utilize deflection at all?

daccura · June 2017

In a youtube build video of an endgame SW he mentioned the exact same: Flames will do more dmg than BoH because of CD procs.

I wasn't sure about this because on paper BoH does more dmg but hey - we all now that those numbers doesn't really matter much in this game..

I will also test this and see if the dmg goes up though I really like the fast animation of BoH and hate the slow/interruptable animation of Flames.

I played a LONG time with NPNM slotted. I can tell you this - slot FoE + ACC and you are fine (really). On trash you will have a slight dps increase but that is really small. On bosses you shouldn't really slot NPNM (Hati is sooo a good example where our DoT dmg excels).

Off-Hand Artifact Feature for FoE is still bugged (tested it here on PS4 on day 1 Mod11 areived). So yeah we use ACC for Off-Hand...

daccura · June 2017

deleted (double post from me)

daccura · June 2017

Did my tests:

BoH does less dmg than Flames.

This true because of CD proc and the way BoH deals dmg.

In fact Brood of Hadar does 2 attacks: The initial attack called "Brood of Hadar" and the follow-up attack(s) called "Brood of Hadar's Bite".

CD procs from the initial attack called Brood of Hadar, the following dmg from Brood of Hadar's Bite does not contribute to CD.

I tried to proc CD on Brood of Hadar's Bite with non-stop casting Warlock's curse but no chance: CD procs only from the initial attack.

Flames on the other hand procs CD on every tick.

I compared the dmg done and it was huge (in my case Flames did about 39.4% more dmg combined with CD).

I did this tests on console so these results are directly from the combat log (yes I really took my time and summed up every number).

Setup was no equip, no insignias or insignia bonuses, no companions, all values were non-crit and I used a iLvL 1 weapon.

I will switch to Flames now and test it in dungeons but the first few results seems very good (though I still hate the long/interruptable animation).

jaime4312 · June 2017

I wonder why GoH is considered bad though? Especially when feated with Gatekeeper's empowerment. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's our hardest hitting daily, at least for single target, no other seems to match is damage even though it doesn't seem to proc creeping death at all. I may be wrong but it basically is a more powerful version of killing flames made daily power that also hits with owlbear cub-like aoe damage but on steroids. When my sw alt was like 3,3k (and most enchs on my companion were azures) I think it was the power that hit the hardest with 8 million in etos (obviously I was being buffed) and if I remember well none of my KF hits could even come close to that hit.

Edit: I found the screenshot I took from that combat log:

https://1drv.ms/i/s!AiT17QgYBz1_gR2lENDIHLsLBROQ

Obviously just to prove my point and not for bragging, you pc guys and console sw mains for sure are able to make my hit look like a joke in comparison xD

So can someone explain me why is considered a bad power? casting time is less than 2 seconds, it hits very very hard (I strongly believe it's our most powerful attack), deals all its damage instantly and does aoe too with the standard 5 target cap.

If someone can ACT FoP vs GoH that would be very appreciated, especially with a buff group. I suspect feated GoH does scale better with buffs and debuffs on enemies so it may have higher damage potential.

I have no ACT so I may be wrong about feated GoH's damage potential, however, it seems to consistently hit harder than KF regardless of enemy's hp.

And to contribute to this thread, since I saw what the original poster found out and proved with ACT I gave FoP a try and definitely got my dps up a bit. FoP= long casting time but deals its damage quickly and procs CD on every single tick. BoH= fast casting time but takes longer to deal full damage and it barely procs CD, it objectively is worse at least for pve.

hadestemplar · June 2017

GoH=gate of hell, and it's not single target daily power but aoe.
Now, it's not bad, yet Tyrannical curse is better option

Edit note: this post is toward jaime4312 mentioning about GoH,,,
But seems he had in mind BoH

As for my view point.. BoH is good for it's quick casting speed + burst dmg + CC element.
But FoP deal more dmg for single target, also if you are furry build you also proc CD..

daccura · June 2017

@fernuu
@kolatmaster

What do you guys think about BoH vs. Flames of Ph.?

Phlegetos VS BoH

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