therealprotexMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 526Arc User
Two more bugs I noticed with my TR:
1. Duellist's Flurry seems to "skip" hits when the game is lagging. I am not sure how to describe it properly... It seems as if the animation is not working properly and the number output (at least on the screen, haven't cross checked yet with ACT) seems to be significant less frequent.
2. This one is reproducable (hence more easy to fix than others maybe). Enter stealth, dodge towards an opponent and hit Lashing Blade immediatly after the dodge animation has finished. The power will not proc. You'll see the Lashing Blade's animation and hear its sound, but it is not proc'ced. Fortunatly it will also not go on cooldown, but it is still a bug.
Great post guys, it's good to see a collaborative work from experienced players.
I have noticed ofc that every time someone writes a constructive post full of ideas there's always one person who believes; (a) they are a genius, (b) everyone else's suggestions are dumb, & (c) indulge in put downs rather than add ideas. Of course when you actually get to hear their ideas they are always worse than the ones they are criticising, which is probably why they are reticent about putting them forward to begin with...
I don't personally have enough experience with the class to add anything to the class specifics other than throwing into the mix the thought that perhaps the pve boost could be neutralised in pvp by adding tenacity to piercing damage - I've not calculated the impact of course, just putting it forward as a possibility.
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
I have only been playing TR for a year just cracked the 4K IL so I won't even pretend to suggest fixes and let the more experienced crunch the numbers. I came from a world first WoW horde guild all bosses cleared and 3500 + rating.i played a rogue also. The first thing I had to do was throw everything I learned about rogueing out the window as in Neverwinter it is soooo much different. The way stealth works in Neverwinter kinda throws me for a loop but that's another topic. The problems I see are 1. Just not many viable build choices 90% of us just MI/executioner I would love to see a viable scoundrel build .(I know Noto has a sabo rogue and does it well ) I tried but man just too used to exec. 2. Our main paragon skills need to be looked at Like SoD procs 2 of 3 times and when it does it's on the wrong mob or most mobs are already dead so really it's viable for bosses only. Stealth you come out way too fast anything drains stealth Hitting,damage,ITC,farting.. 3. Survivabilty. Lifesteal is cool and can keep us up most times thru damage but as the mods progress and things get harder almost anything can one shot us .we just don't have many survival tools as bosses can see thru stealth now and every thing and it's cousin has crazy 360 degree aoe which as a melee class are unavoidable . I understand the glass cannon thing but what I don't get is other dps mainly the best now GWF can put out major dps and has much more survivabily maybe can't face tank but can sure stand in there and go to work ,and CW is ranged so don't have to be in the red to do damage Rogue doesn't have either of these options The fourth issue is group usefulness Rogues are great dps when played right and have a limited CC capability But when choosing a group dps and there's a choice between a TR ,GWF,SW CW The other classes can offtank ,debuff,cc,buff All useful group abilities besides just DPS there is just not a reason to pick a TR . It's like that old song ,"anything you can do I can do better!"
Now forgive me this is coming from a non BiS rogue 38k non buffed power 63% armor pen 74% noncompanion gift crit 27% lifesteal 5k recovery so I still have ways to go and a lot to learn
Just noting a couple of things that I disagree with, because to me this seems more like a "Class Buff Suggestions" thread rather than a "Class Balance Suggestions" one. Here are some thoughts to counter with and argue.
At-will: Duelist's Flurry The biggest proportion of the damage TRs do in PVE comes from duelist's flurry. Depending on the build, even conservatively, it accounts for greater than 30% of TR's overall damage. [...] Our suggestion is to make a single flurry add all 10 stacks of bleed.
So this At-will is more than 30% of your overall damage and your suggestion is to make it reach max stacks of Bleed far easier and constantly. That would make it deal even more damage (one DF combo would be more than enough, since it provides the Bleed of 2-3 combos), AND provide the TR space for adding even more damage (again) since you'll need less DF combos and you'll hit with (let's say) Sly Flourish now. Maybe its damage should be toned down first ? The reason you suggest this is that this melee At-will can't actually hit a Boss that moved away in a ranged distance. Needless to say that this melee At-will already has a mechanism to follow moving targets, but balance is not an option here -> enemy is NPC? ok, one-click Duelist's Flurry ... enemy is PC? ok, one-click Shocking Execution ... there, balance. I believe it is already well-thought and realistic DnD-wise, to go on a flurry of hits, chasing your target, and have some hits slip by and cause bleed to your target. That's how it was meant to be and it respects the Rogue's playstyle.
Low Blows - Deal 40% more damage to foes who are affected by Control effects.
25% damage bonus from a feat (that actually applies constantly on PvE mobs and PvP!) is honestly so much already.
Skullcracker – Every 15 seconds next Encounter activates Skullcracker effect and buffs the player for 6 seconds to deal 30% more damage(up from 25%) so it works on all targets including those immune to Dazes(+current Daze effects).
Again you disrespect the whole Scoundrel feat-tree purpose (a back alley brawler who avoids damage, dazes target, and deals extra damage to the affected one) and you just add a 25% damage bonus. The effect is called Skullcracker for a reason. Yet another idea on this Capstone: (just throwing the idea to have it affect in some other way an Immune target) "Every 15 seconds you gain the Skullcracker effect. Skullcracker: Your next Encounter power now also Dazes the target for 4 seconds. Your attacks extend this Daze by .5 seconds, up to a maximum of 2 additional seconds. You deal 25% more damage to targets affected by this Daze. Immune targets take 50% of your next Encounter power's damage as Piercing damage instead, suffering from the direct hit to their skull."
Shadow of Demise - [...] One solution is to make SoD work in 1 sec ticks after the initial proc, and extend SoD an extra second.
Deathknell and Last Moments - [...] Have them grant a flat +5% bonus for each of these feats and gradually increase them as the life of the enemy goes down to a +25% damage from each feat when target is under 40% HP.
This is an amazing Capstone feat already, it gives 20% stealth regen and saves you from the stealth interruption. Also it deals a great amount (of Piercing damage no less) from the damages you did while in stealth. Having it tick makes it even more overpowered. As for Deathknell and Last Moments, they don't need a change, they're strong and suitable for the Executioner's style, dealing a lethal killing blow.
Wicked reminder: [...] Our solution is to make this encounter have 3 charges, where each charge gives a 10% damage bonus for the party, instead of a defense reduction. Stealth applies 3 charges. When 3 charges are applied to target the buff lasts 6 seconds [...].
This is supposed to be a hit that marks the enemy's body, a reminder of the pain that weakens the foe. A debuff. As for which debuffs should be capped or uncapped, that's a great balancing issue.
TL;DR: Hold your horses (or any other mounts) with all those (balanced) damage bonuses and don't switch stuff that don't make sense with the Rogue's playstyle.
You may win a thousand fights, but you can only lose one.
"GWF can put out major dps and has much more survivabily maybe can't face tank but can sure stand in there and go to work"
The game we are playing is defined by a series of changes that has distorted what the classes are meant to be. TR is still more or less the same role aince Beta, with a bit more AOE. CW basically the same, AoE damage and control. GWF is not what it was initially designed to be. Beta to Mod 4 the class was tank or 'off tank' less aggro management than GF but more AoE damage. Nerfs and buffs happened through mod 4 when suddenly the biggest part of tankiness got removed but not all. Suddenly class is just DPS but still not squishy like the others. GWF wasn't designed to be DPS. Its like if devs nerfed everything but Conq spec on GF and buffed its damage.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
@stathisjoestar like some other critic before you, you spoke a lot but said nothing. All you did was saying NO to all we suggested so i will say NO to your critic as well but thanks for trying. Your point of view is from PvP from what i could tell and your understanding of TR is not enough to get why and what we are suggesting. Our point of view is from PvE. I dont know what your expectations of TR are but they are certainly not similar to expectations of the people who worked on this.
@mousebreaker85#4641 Was funny reading this, many same thoughts. I came from WoW too where i played Rogue as well. I agree that all we learned about Rogue class was not of help in NW and as you said difference in Stealth mechanic was a hard thing to swallow. "anything you can do I can do better!" - this pretty much sums it up. P.S. Too much LS, get a bit more recovery
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Before I'll go into answering by points, I would like to ask few things as looks like your experience on TR is excessively different from mine:
1. Are you BiS ? Do you have 100% crit chance (from stats, etc) ? 2. What spec you are ? Exe, Sabo, Scoundrel ? 3. What rotation you use on Drufi ? 4. What rotation on mob packs like CN ? 5. What rotation on the FBI climb up ? 6. How well you are doing compared other competent players in other classes in the above cases?
Some of your comments leave me the impression you base your suggestions on a very theoretical and tooltip based read, and not practice. I'm not saying good suggestions can't come from this, but then I'll know how to approach the difference in our opinion better.
For example SoD piercing damage, it's a mere representation choice and can be non-pircing but calculated before DR for exactly the same effect. Or the issue with "that actually applies constantly on PvE " while referring to "affected by Control effects" - There is a 'minor' issue with control effects and mobs now, as in general the non trash is control immune. And slows (movement speed reduction) is not calculated into this afaik.
Also a small point, why class balance and class buff are mutually exclusive ?
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lordseth1985Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 319Arc User
I play as TR since beta, and I assume I wasn't that active on forums, but anyway, here's my toughts... [sorry for my english, I'm not a native speaker of it lol]
It's sad that most tr players follow only one build, with same power rotation and companions. Until mod 4, or 5, I can't remember well, we had some variety of builds. Also, we had some really nice feats, like Dazzling blades, Catspaw Style, Underhand tactics and much more.
The biggest issue with our class is that we are like ducks... we can dps, we can debuff/cc, we have some survivability but... we don't do that efficiently. TR's was meant to be a squishy and deadly class on 1x1 combat, and we can't even do that without a good buffer/bondings r12 and so on... that's why we need a rework/balance. Also, Combat Advantage should be our "best friend and lover" but we don't have any feat/class feature that improve it and make it worth to focus. I'm saying by myself, I always played focusing on Deflect/CA, and my friends and guildies asked "why do you focus on DEX/CHA instead of STR/DEX? you don't wanna be top dps?" and this always make me sad... you know, dungeons should be a group effort, not a race to see who is the biggest dps [and frankly, even tankers do higher dps than dps classes...] and tr's should be boss killers. And as TR I always knew that my role was cc a little here, dps a little there and during boss fights, just burn them to the ground. We have 3 paragon, and only 1 it's really viable and used.
Many ppl are saying that this will brake the "balance" on pvp and make tr's even more deadlier. Well, it's time to devs start working on powers in a way they work differently on pvp and pve, or reduce their effectiveness on pvp [and it's not only for tr's, but for all classes].
I know I may have sounded a little grouchy and complain, and so I apologize. But it's just my toughts.
BTW, I agree with the proposed changes and really hope devs could take a look at it and give some love to tr's.
Avestruz.Q.T.Seduz - Rogue, natural born assassin.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Once again in my opinion I think tr MI needs around 20% single target boost and 35% aoe boost in damage in executioneer tree.
Scoudrel needs to tackle issues with CC immune mobs while saboteur also needs buff in damage however I am not sure how much since I do not possess enough information about it.
For exe this looks like even more than what is in the OP, but lets put it as a target and look how we get there per your suggestions - So we aim for:
- SoD : on encounter target gains debuff that lowers mitigation to TR attacks by 50%-60% which lasts 8 second and after that if target don't die goes on a 10 sec cooldown (not sure about length), but don't go on cooldown if target does die. In case multiple targets are hit each target will be applied with mitigation debuff of 30%. Mitigation debuff as you know is not affected by effectiveness cap.
Ok, so we get around 20-25% damage increase in cases of AoE (mitigation debuff has other sources, so is bound to relative increase). But for bosses / long fights we get ~40% dps at about 44% uptime. So lets call it +17% ?
We got AoE buff, but I think as compared to todays ability to have high uptime for SoD using invisible infiltrator. We got single target reduction.
- Shadowborn - After entering stealth next used encounter power will be applied with 100% damage buff.
Few things to notice, 100% power is a lot less than 100% damage. About 2 times less. In my previous suggestion: At 20k power adding 20k more is 33% damage increase. At 30k power adding 30k more is ~42% damage increase. At 50k power adding 50k more is ~55% damage increase. At 250k power adding 250k more is ~85% damage increase. At 500k power adding 500k more is ~92% damage increase.
It does scale up, and keeping it for a time after stealth makes it a significant buff. BUT It will not allow stealth + shadowborn. Also as you can see the scaling is diminishing, and capped at 100% (asymptotically) hence lessening the damage spikes and making an easier rotation (less prone to mistiming). It's also controllable by the time length, and animation length.
While next encounter after entering stealth will allow x2 from shadowborn + stealth assured crit (and your proposed stealth change) and feats that affect it. I think this is a bit burst heavy ? Add first strike class feature and though afaik VP is more or less useless in PvP and only works against players lacking tenacity (as is probably lashing) but as you yourself said we have a problem here.
- Stealth - While in stealth TR deals increased damage - base power increases the amount of bonus damage dealt - 1 power = 0.00054 increased damage for example
I'm not sure what range you were aiming for. But at 200k power (not rare with good buffs, this will be 108% dps increase. This is significantly more than the expected ~30% for the BiS PvE player. For that more or less single hit from stealth. Also this is still has the fundamental issue that in PvE you need to stack crit and you didn't solve it's waste as a stat when you enter stealth. While PvP players stack more power and less crit, afaik, so now you shifted the balance even more there.
But @srijimbofrancis , just think it through with severity - next logical move would be for end game trs to kick vorpal for feytouched or some other non severity enchant as well as severity companions - resulting in dropping your severity to 100% or so, so you profit maximally from that mechanism (same as medium or beginer trs), making tab button adding 30% + dmg to tr via severity which is in my opinion ridiculous for a single tab button.
Could be, though as we know it's not uncommon to get 30% in a single button, especially in buff / self buff encounters. And the stealth mechanic should be much more defining for TRs. Also it rises an interesting question, how much unstoppable adds in terms of dps for example? Or CoI including all the procs from it like SS and chill stacks ?
Also the damage increase i presented would be necessary as some other skills would need rework but for less dmg overall, such as duelist flurry which would in my case - reduce max stacks to 5 making it easier to apply but also halving the speed of the ticks of bleed caused by this power - if stacks expire and target is not dead, tr will automatically teleport behind the target which had bleed stacks. (needs placement adjust for stuff like turtle in fbi where behind target is a no go ) This would affect tr to have more fun mechanism and more attractive playstyle that suits tr better than current one.
I hope you are joking here. This is "how to kill a class".
Post edited by micky1p00 on
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lordseth1985Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 319Arc User
On pvp the real issue is with First Strike+Shadowborn+SE. If First Strike and Shadowborn worked only with encounter powers, IMO, the pvp part should be "fixed".
Avestruz.Q.T.Seduz - Rogue, natural born assassin.
A big problem I hear a lot is if we do this it will break pvp
This is an issue many games have gone thru and most have learned long ago you can't balance both without changing the coding of one The main issue is the average player has between 100k to 200k health but they are trying to balance powers in a pve system in which the mobs have 20-300 million health So any buffed burst damage class like TR is doing 100k to 200k hits when everything is locked and loaded which against a mob is not even 1% of Thier health but against players ...yeah. They need a pvp rework . Maybe redo tenacity coding to compensate or kill companion gift buffs in pvp .or give all players a flat item level like in destiny or D.C. Online When mobs have a disproportionate health to players it's hard to balance powers and make them effective for one without ruining the other
Ok, so we get around 20-25% damage increase in cases of AoE (mitigation debuff has other sources, so is bound to relative increase). But for bosses / long fights we get ~40% dps at about 44% uptime. So lets call it +17% ?
Right, numbers are more or less on spot here, however this targets mostly end game TRs primarly for high end party runs and raids. Reason ? Effectiveness cap is hit 90% of the time where every class benefits from those - however, TRs will benefit even more than other classes thanks to the capstone pushing them in front of other classes (total debuff value wise) in those cases, compensating the lack of damage some other feats provide compared to other classes.
On a side note yes I intended for shadowborn to do as i described and I am aware that it deals more in most cases than x2 power would. It is designed in the first place to deal with power softcap after 180-190k power is passed so trs dont underachive in those cases and for compensation for PVP skills changes that I might talk about later.
I'm not sure what range you were aiming for. But at 200k power (not rare with good buffs, this will be 108% dps increase. This is significantly more than the expected ~30% for the BiS PvE player. For that more or less single hit from stealth. Also this is still has the fundamental issue that in PvE you need to stack crit and you didn't solve it's waste as a stat when you enter stealth. While PvP players stack more power and less crit, afaik, so now you shifted the balance even more there.
Read again please, this time carefully - I said base power increases the amount, meaning buffed power is excluded.
I hope you are joking here. This is "how to kill a class".
The idea here is to reduce dps pie part of duelist which in total is always above 30%. Duelist direct damage would not be affected but only bleed damage meaning it would reduce it roughly around 10-12% (not completely sure it was some time ago I last checked TR tests) It have 3 pros the way I see it. 1 - bleeds apply faster with only 1 rotation leaving some space for sly to be combined since it does tad more direct damage. (combo giving 1.5-2.3% more dmg than pure flurry spam) 2 - bleeds are easier and faster to reapply once buff spike rises. 3 - teleport addition gives you more mobility that in my opinion tr desperately needs on moving bosses such as Drufi.
Those changes are among else targeting to fix a gap that pvp TRs would feel after change made to shocking execution. SE - no direct damage dealing skill should deal all its damage as piercing damage, since that disrespects defense stats in pvp as well as other players' armor penetration. Therefore piercing damage would be limited to 1/3rd of damage at best that SE deals.
As for your suggestion @isssssho , as Blur pointed out, we don't do as much damage as you think from stealth. A 30% buff from stealth (which it isn't that much, but whatever), would not equate to a 30% buff in overall damage in PVE. How much of our damage do you think comes from damage done while in stealth??
I am aware that most damage is done outside of stealth, and I was addressing an issue about stealth mechanism being too pale and not so useful for TRs. Of course damage increase is meant for stealth else it would be ridiculous and too overpowered. If Blur himself read what I wrote more carefully he also would conclude that statement i made : '' making tab button adding 30% + dmg to tr via severity which is in my opinion ridiculous for a single tab button. '' is targeting stealth mechanism only.
Hmm, I think that's all I wanted to reply to for now Might have forgot something but oh well.
If Blur himself read what I wrote more carefully he also would conclude that statement i made : '' making tab button adding 30% + dmg to tr via severity which is in my opinion ridiculous for a single tab button. '' is targeting stealth mechanism only.
Hmm, I think that's all I wanted to reply to for now Might have forgot something but oh well.
If you understood Stealth suggestion in the first place you would not suggest what you suggested, in your opinion a logical move.
"But @srijimbofrancis , just think it through with severity - next logical move would be for end game trs to kick vorpal for feytouched or some other non severity enchant as well as severity companions - resulting in dropping your severity to 100% or so, so you profit maximally from that mechanism (same as medium or beginer trs)"
Since damage from Stealth is incomparable to damage out of Stealth, this what you assumed is certainly not a next logical move.
Post edited by blur#5900 on
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
In one sentence you say buff +20% single target. +35% AoE damage. And on the next you kill SoD for single target.
You complained that shadowborn + stealth combo is over the top, and you suggest to buff it even more.
Your stealth suggestion is 20% dps buff on key press, favors high power builds (PvP) and doesn't solve the crit stat scaling. You are so adamant against the stealth change but practically suggest the same thing, but a soultion that solve less things...
Mobility ? When you forcibly jump at random timings ? Some of us, don't stay and watch everything that has DF on it die, DF and keep going. I don't need ruberband mechanism to bring me back to an almost dead critter when I'm already on the next target.
Halving the speed of bleed ticks is simply reducing their damage by half. So you changed SoD, and you reduce bleed, where is "+20% single target" ?
You also ignored some of the other issues. But discussion brings ideas...
Btw what spec are you playing ? exe ? sabo ? PvP ? PvE?
You complained that shadowborn + stealth combo is over the top, and you suggest to buff it even more.
Your stealth suggestion is 20% dps buff on key press, favors high power builds (PvP) and doesn't solve the crit stat scaling. You are so adamant against the stealth change but practically suggest the same thing, but a soultion that solve less things...
It is not 20% buff - for 95% of trs its far less - but if a tr is able to push his base power over 40k than he should be rewarded with more direct damage. In your case the more tr pushes crit the more diminsihing return he would get from the severity, which is in my opinion contradictory to some extent and as such don't have healthy base of idea in the first place. Shadowborn + stealth combo is over the top in changes that you suggested because you didn't do anything about SE and thats primary reason for it. You limited it to max hit of 90% players hp as it's fair to lose so much in a single hit.
Halving the speed of bleed ticks is simply reducing their damage by half. So you changed SoD, and you reduce bleed, where is "+20% single target" ?
So you think that 1 at will still should stay at 30-40% of your dps pie chart ? I would rather buff some other skills letting trs use variety of viable skills instead of just all trs using 1 same power that will eventually cause problematic bugs as conflicting of SOD or bleeds when 2 trs are on same target.
I do not understand however what you meant by - I killed SOD. As i said I probably forgot some topics I should have addressed, so please do remind me about them if you expect response on such.
I used to play TR a lot up until mod8 when i lost my interest in it, maining other class. Used to be exe mostly for pve but played pvp too. Now tr is my alt where I mostly look for new things and ideas to test so following that logic i am currently sabo pve spec.
@isssssho 1. Your suggestions would buff TR class far higher than what we suggested which is minimal. 2. Your point of view is influenced by your main class - HR. TR's are not base power stackers, TR operates fine with 30-35k base power. Going 40k+ is something you do as a HR, you dont need recovery as much as we do so u dont have anything else to stack. 3. TR's will push crit % as close to 100% as possible and we are fine with diminishing returns from severity, be it contradictory in your opinion or not. We are suggesting overflow stat to be turned into small overall buff. 4. What's the problem with our dps pie chart? So far i know yours doesnt look much better, even more disbalanced. You want us TR's to suggest changes for HR because we dont like how your dps pie chart looks like? 5. Our suggestions create a minimal overall buff of the class, much lower than what you suggest. So im asking you, what is wrong with our suggestions. They are fine but you would just like it more for it to go your way? 6. I dont know when your played TR but not in last 18 months.
I dont know what your expectations of TR are but they are certainly not similar to expectations of the people who worked on this.
My expectations of the class is to be balanced (and reworked a little), especially to make the Whisperknife and Scoundrel paths to be on par with the MI Executioner. As for the expectations of the people who worked on this, I just have to point out that many of your suggestions are limited to adding a 25%-40% bonus here and there.
Duelisty's Flurry - For no reason the Rogue can throw 10 Bleeds at his opponent in one combo, just for the sake of damage. It's supposed to be a flurry of hits that chase the enemy and frantically bypass his defences here and there to wound and bleed him. Skullcracker - You just made it a constant 30% buff. Just that. It's the Scoundrel capstone, put some thought into it actually. Low Blows - yay 40% ! It's like Scoundrel is not competitive because Low Blows is underwhelming. I know it doesn't work on bosses, but it works on mobs and on pc players. 40%, where else you saw that?.. Like let's say, half the damage bonuses of all classes (not counting Capstones) are 5%-15% more damage if a prerequisite/restraint is met, and the other half are an underwhelimg weapon damage bonus. Deathknell/Last Moments: Again you want to give a constant no-restraint straight 5% up to 25% bonus (multiplied x2, for both feats) as soon as the enemy is on 100% of his HP, down to 40% of his HP. That's pretty much the opposite of how those feats or the whole Executioner idea should work (meaning when the target reaches below half HP you execution him with 25% plus 25% more damage). So the enemy at 70% HP would receive 25% more damage (12,5% + 12,5%, for both feats) because its his last moments and you are executioning him?.. Very convenient to add everywhere and all the time a significantly huge buff. Wicked Reminder - The staying wound on the enemy's body is inconvenient to the need for adding perma-cheesy-damage everywhere, since it's a debuff (and capped). Solution = that wound is now a party buff 30%. Shadowborn - While we're buffing, why not give Executioner another buff, this one will only DOUBLE his Power FOR 5 SECONDS...
There's a difference between suggestions and buffs, is what I'm saying. I'm not saying "NO" to every suggestion, I just point out that some of those (the ones that are in the format of "Ok, let's add 25% damage, and make it constant") are not even suggestions, some of those are poorly-thought over-buffs. You could work on some great ideas instead of forcing buffs even when not needed. Suggestions should be an attempt to work out how to make a power/feat more competitive and fitting. That's my previous take on Scoundrel's Skullcracker:
"Every 15 seconds you gain the Skullcracker effect. Skullcracker: Your next Encounter power now also Dazes the target for 4 seconds. Your attacks extend this Daze by .5 seconds, up to a maximum of 2 additional seconds. You deal 25% more damage to targets affected by this Daze. Immune targets take 50% of your next Encounter power's damage as Piercing damage instead, suffering from the direct hit to their skull."
The idea is to have an Immune target suffer the skullcracking hit in lethal Piercing damage, instead of having it daze him/making him vulnerable to more damage. And it could be changed, maybe the damage is too little, or it shouldn't be restrained to just one encounter, or it shouldn't be piercing at all, or it should be more/less than 50% etc. For example: "Immune targets take 50% of your Encounter powers' damage as Piercing damage for 4 seconds, suffering from the direct hits to their skull."
You may win a thousand fights, but you can only lose one.
@stathisjoestar I had a good laugh reading this. Your expectations for TR are obviously very different from ours, we can agree to disagree. Skullcracker - read carefully, i dont know where u see a constant buff. Every 15 secs you get buffed for 6 secs. Low blows - up to 40% from current 25% with a condition that target is controlled. To meet that condition on a boss you would have to use Courage Breaker which is inferior to Lurkers Assault. Scoundrel is already way behind Executioner so nothing here is too much. Deathknell and Last moment currently dont work on any mobs, dont have time to activate. We get full boost on boss when he is at 30% HP left. They dont last long when they are already at 30% HP. Wicked Reminder - If we tried to satisfy you we could rename this power into Frenzied Party if that is how you look at this, but as i said in my earlier replies we are not trying to satisfy anyone. Shadowborn - I agree that originally presented suggestion is probably too much. I wrote later that current one is fine if developers can exclude it from activating on dots, atwills and SE.
You still didnt tell us about this which was for you:
"Before I'll go into answering by points, I would like to ask few things as looks like your experience on TR is excessively different from mine:
1. Are you BiS ? Do you have 100% crit chance (from stats, etc) ? 2. What spec you are ? Exe, Sabo, Scoundrel ? 3. What rotation you use on Drufi ? 4. What rotation on mob packs like CN ? 5. What rotation on the FBI climb up ? 6. How well you are doing compared other competent players in other classes in the above cases? "
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
I dont know what your expectations of TR are but they are certainly not similar to expectations of the people who worked on this.
My expectations of the class is to be balanced (and reworked a little), especially to make the Whisperknife and Scoundrel paths to be on par with the MI Executioner. As for the expectations of the people who worked on this, I just have to point out that many of your suggestions are limited to adding a 25%-40% bonus here and there.
Duelisty's Flurry - For no reason the Rogue can throw 10 Bleeds at his opponent in one combo, just for the sake of damage. It's supposed to be a flurry of hits that chase the enemy and frantically bypass his defences here and there to wound and bleed him. Skullcracker - You just made it a constant 30% buff. Just that. It's the Scoundrel capstone, put some thought into it actually. Low Blows - yay 40% ! It's like Scoundrel is not competitive because Low Blows is underwhelming. I know it doesn't work on bosses, but it works on mobs and on pc players. 40%, where else you saw that?.. Like let's say, half the damage bonuses of all classes (not counting Capstones) are 5%-15% more damage if a prerequisite/restraint is met, and the other half are an underwhelimg weapon damage bonus. Deathknell/Last Moments: Again you want to give a constant no-restraint straight 5% up to 25% bonus (multiplied x2, for both feats) as soon as the enemy is on 100% of his HP, down to 40% of his HP. That's pretty much the opposite of how those feats or the whole Executioner idea should work (meaning when the target reaches below half HP you execution him with 25% plus 25% more damage). So the enemy at 70% HP would receive 25% more damage (12,5% + 12,5%, for both feats) because its his last moments and you are executioning him?.. Very convenient to add everywhere and all the time a significantly huge buff. Wicked Reminder - The staying wound on the enemy's body is inconvenient to the need for adding perma-cheesy-damage everywhere, since it's a debuff (and capped). Solution = that wound is now a party buff 30%. Shadowborn - While we're buffing, why not give Executioner another buff, this one will only DOUBLE his Power FOR 5 SECONDS...
There's a difference between suggestions and buffs, is what I'm saying. I'm not saying "NO" to every suggestion, I just point out that some of those (the ones that are in the format of "Ok, let's add 25% damage, and make it constant") are not even suggestions, some of those are poorly-thought over-buffs. You could work on some great ideas instead of forcing buffs even when not needed. Suggestions should be an attempt to work out how to make a power/feat more competitive and fitting. That's my previous take on Scoundrel's Skullcracker:
"Every 15 seconds you gain the Skullcracker effect. Skullcracker: Your next Encounter power now also Dazes the target for 4 seconds. Your attacks extend this Daze by .5 seconds, up to a maximum of 2 additional seconds. You deal 25% more damage to targets affected by this Daze. Immune targets take 50% of your next Encounter power's damage as Piercing damage instead, suffering from the direct hit to their skull."
The idea is to have an Immune target suffer the skullcracking hit in lethal Piercing damage, instead of having it daze him/making him vulnerable to more damage. And it could be changed, maybe the damage is too little, or it shouldn't be restrained to just one encounter, or it shouldn't be piercing at all, or it should be more/less than 50% etc. For example: "Immune targets take 50% of your Encounter powers' damage as Piercing damage for 4 seconds, suffering from the direct hits to their skull."
Maybe we should separate your role-playing interpretation of skills and power from actual numbers and results ?
Duelisty's Flurry - Who said that there is no reason that a flurry can't stack 10 bleeds? Lets say it's special attack that cuts the target. You have issue with 10, no problem, lets have 5 bleeds out of a flurry of 10 with each bleed stack twice the original damage. Or more so, who said bleeds can't do "death by thousand cuts" by the roleplaying vision, lets uncap the bleed stack fully.
Scoundrel - I'll mostly refrain from this path, as I don't like it. It's practically dead, It's constrains do not meet when it matters. btw what is "pc players"?
By how much in DPS a scoundrel will be behind (or where you think it's now?) in your experience in end game content ? And what this path provide in such environment (FBI, SP , MSVA) ? Tankiness irrelevant, you either alive or you dead, not muhc in between. TRs are not a tank. Utility ? There is smoke bomb, tank, and a lot of CC immune targets, so what's the point ? PvP ? Doesn't work there either..
The issue is the 40% feat? No problem lets buff some of the encounters and at-wills by 30% direct buff like similar DC change recently and call it a day. What you suggest for this path, to bring it on par, because now it's behind by what? 200%-300% ? Or sure, find me a scoundrel that is on-par in the above content and lets see what they think will help their brethren to get to the same levels.
What 50% of the next encounter gives ? This is not CW here that has constant multi-proccing encounters running in the background, like CoI, Icy, Fanning, etc.. Your most likely encounters either have longer CD than their counterparts in other classes or weak. Our encounters are currently mainly for AoE. And single target relay mainly on at-wills. You are using a capstone to give 50% additional encounter damage out of negligible amount in the not fitting scenario. As in -> immune targets -> most damage at wills. -> adding 50% of next encounter gives almost nothing. Worse, even for large targets they will be dead before encounter CD, that leaves only bosses. Where you have Scoundrel cheesed their way to not being "so horribly behind that the healadin does more DPS" using lightning, lurkers and BF. This is plain and simple cheese and not a class balance. And even using it, still the path is dead.
Deathknell/Last Moments - Again, whos interpretation of what executioner should look like we are arguing here ? let me quote you the mod4 dev blog: "Executioner: Uses stealth to try and deal as much damage as possible in a single strike. " "Scoundrel: A brawler who debuffs foes and can take a lot of damage. "
And again why suggestion and a buff are mutually exclusive ? Yes some of the suggestion are a buff. Plain and simple buff. They are "poorly-thought over-buffs" no problem, bring up "well thought non-over buffs" that will bring executioner on par with the other PvE classes without some 'interesting' mechanics like lurkers+BF or WW stacking.
Also please tell me what I need, deathkneel, twisted grin, exposed weakness, and questionably shadowborn now ? t4,t5 feats that work only on paper. But in practice they do almost nothing.
You jump on double power for 5 seconds, how much it is in actual DPS ? When the most you can stack as base is 40k'ish now. It doesn't work on stealth, and for limited time, meaning one flurry and encounter, or sly set and encounter or 2. And you still need to activate SoD with something else, so you can't just spam mindlessly. Don't like the 5 seconds? lower the up-time.. the original is an example.. But next attack simply doesn't work. And the current one allows stealth + shadowborn.
But don't say poorly thought over buffs when your main suggestion leaves a dead path dead for the sake of "suffering from the direct hits to their skull"
@therealprotex Seems like you were right. I noticed the same thing about DF, even worse sometimes its starting over and over and wont even go into flurry animation. I dont know what causes this and im not expert in testing things but here are ACT results of one DF, which is normally 8 hits but here i got only 4.
Edit: Total hits of DF are 11, 2+9. Not counting the bleed ticks. So in this Screenshot, instead of 9 hits in Flurry i had only 2, 7 were skipped.
I have tried a 4k TR (it isn't my TR though, so I barely get any practice), but I'm one of those "exceptionally awful" TRs mentioned above. Props to you pro TRs who soldier on, despite the high skill cap versus (relatively) low reward ratio.
I was thinking about an idea for Deathknell/Final Moments change...
Deathknell: When you activate Shadow of Demise, you gain a 25% damage bonus for 7 seconds. Deathknell is moved to a Tier 4 feat. Final Moments: Shadow of Demise grants you a damage bonus 1-5% damage bonus for every time it ticks (excluding the final tick, for obvious reasons). Final Moments is moved to a Tier 5 feat. (Optional: possible rename?).
I'm assuming we're going with the "Shadow of Demise ticks every second during its duration" change, because I think it still keeps Shadow of Demise unique as a capstone feat but gives Demise a much needed burst DPS boost.
I don't need to talk about why current Deathknell/Final Moments sucks. These are moved to Tier4/5 since a Tier4/5 feat means you're practically comitted to picking up Shadow of Demise anyways, so might as well make these unique to the ExeTR's shtick. These feats aren't gamebreaking, as they are still tied to the TR's finesse and timing: you only get these with Shadow of Demise, so you need to make your Shadow of Demise count.
One thing I realize in hindsight is that you can't actually use them until you get the Executioner capstone.
I thought about tying them to stealth, but then I realized that if it was tied to Stealth, wouldn't Shocking Executioner TR oneshots become worse (or flat out unsurvivable)?
And in terms of non level 55 TRs: I realize that these 10 feat points become useless until you get the capstone, but I personally think that, at level 40-54, content is easy enough that missing these feats shouldn't matter too much. The TR problem of high skill cap to low reward only really becomes an issue at level 70.
Thoughts, opinions?
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Minor thing that is annoying me a little, Duelists Flurry Bleed can stack 11 times, not 10 <.<
@thefabricant I never saw it reach 11 stacks, icon is small it may have occurred without noticing. If it can reach that it should be fixed of course.
@rjc9000 Thanks for suggestions. Thing is, about Deathknell, we can have SoD up time 100% or at least close to it, so that would be permanent 25% buff to additional 50% buff which we already get from SoD itself. About Last Moments, not sure how you imagined it. SoD every tick gets higher by 5% or we get 5% damage buff for some time which stacks? Also you tied it to SoD, means no SoD no Deathknell and Last Moments, we dont really activate it on mobs phases so means no use from these feats still. It is possible depending which encounters TR uses for mob phases but i think it would hurt the rotation. Thanks again but in my opinion much higher buff than what we suggested.
Yeah with SoD like many have said it really is only useful in boss fights .on the 30-40 mob packs leading up to the boss I never get a chance for it to proc they are usually dead within the 6 sec mark by whirlwinding GWF or circling warlocks ,hey I get my little smoke bomb in at least lol. But when I look at dps numbers we really fall behind on reg mobs then catch up in DPSwhen the boss fight comes.but as boss mechanics are changing with them moving around . It hurts as we have no moving attacks. So if we get a buff I think it must come from at wills or an aoe power which off hand I rarely use anything besides smoke..maybe blade fury if I'm feeling salty about everyone else aoe'ing everything while I plink away at my single target lol. Duelists flurry don't get me started.. The animation i would love to see gone I've gotten killed many times stuck in it and can't move or stop it.also when fighting a close pack of mobs I get ticks going around 70-90k and leave the mob to die focus on another only to have DF pull me back to the original mob .. It's kinda a pain.I would love to see SOD changed to a Shorter duration maybe 25% every 3secs to 50% but not sure if we can build up decent damage in 3secs or not
Post edited by mousebreaker85#4641 on
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
@thefabricant I never saw it reach 11 stacks, icon is small it may have occurred without noticing. If it can reach that it should be fixed of course.
@rjc9000 Thanks for suggestions. Thing is, about Deathknell, we can have SoD up time 100% or at least close to it, so that would be permanent 25% buff to additional 50% buff which we already get from SoD itself. About Last Moments, not sure how you imagined it. SoD every tick gets higher by 5% or we get 5% damage buff for some time which stacks? Also you tied it to SoD, means no SoD no Deathknell and Last Moments, we dont really activate it on mobs phases so means no use from these feats still. It is possible depending which encounters TR uses for mob phases but i think it would hurt the rotation. Thanks again but in my opinion much higher buff than what we suggested.
@blur afaik the icon only stacks 10 times, but in ACT the damage stacks 11 times (I checked this with fixed damage weapons on preview). I will see if I can get a screenshot to demonstrate this for you.
@rjc9000 Thanks for suggestions. Thing is, about Deathknell, we can have SoD up time 100% or at least close to it, so that would be permanent 25% buff to additional 50% buff which we already get from SoD itself. About Last Moments, not sure how you imagined it. SoD every tick gets higher by 5% or we get 5% damage buff for some time which stacks? Also you tied it to SoD, means no SoD no Deathknell and Last Moments, we dont really activate it on mobs phases so means no use from these feats still. It is possible depending which encounters TR uses for mob phases but i think it would hurt the rotation. Thanks again but in my opinion much higher buff than what we suggested.
I was thinking Moments would be something of a stacking damage buff. Assuming that we took the "Demise ticks 7 times once per second" suggestion, you would start at 5%, the first tick would add 5% more damage (10% at this point), the second would add 5% (15% at this point), the third another 5% (20%), the fourth another 5% (25%), the fifth another 5% (30%), the sixth another 5% (35%). Perhaps the stacking resets upon ending a Demise proc?
Note I made the description "when you activate Demise". You get Deathknell, but probably not Moments on mobs due to how I imagined the stacking buff be (mobs will die before you hit 6 ticks of Demise anyways)
However, this is is why I prefaced that I don't know the TR extremely well. I lack the timing for perma SoD on bosses, so that's probably I didn't realize how often one can activate Demise.
@rjc9000 your suggestions are not bad, we would not benefit on mob phases but ok, its in the spirit of the Rogue, we are supposed to shine on bosses and it would certainly help us in single target combat. Numbers you suggested might be overdoing it, i dont know, certainly would need to be tested by devs if it is too much or not. I changed my encounters setup, im procing SoD with Lashing Blade which has quite a long cooldown so i dont have SoD up 100% but for those who have Dazing Strike slotted it is no problem to keep it up always.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
@thefabricant 11 stacks indeed. Thank you, we will add this in the Known bugs section. If you have other information which we missed and should be addressed dont hesitate to post.
Maybe we should separate your role-playing interpretation of skills and power from actual numbers and results ?
Maybe you should put suggestions that respect the actual DnD background ? My suggestion was just a simple idea, not the whole Scoundrel rework. Scoundrel tree relies on survivability via deflection/life steal/back alley insight and fighting an enemy via dazing him/gaining advantage over him. What you turn the Scoundrel path to is.. the path that does 30% damage (so that he can catch up to the fresh buffs put on Executioner). You can still make Scoundrel strong by respecting his role maybe, that's my actual suggestion when I referred to Skullcracker. Examples is having him deal extra damage on controlled enemies, having him do piercing damage on immune targets, or gain combat advantage over immune targets etc. These are mere ideas I personally had, that potentially could fit on Scoundrel, the damage of course would be adjusted. Ignoring a whole class tree though and replacing it with "Scoundrel is the path that.. em does 30% damage lol" is forced buffing and lack of imagination.
"Executioner: Uses stealth to try and deal as much damage as possible in a single strike. " "Scoundrel: A brawler who debuffs foes and can take a lot of damage. "
Glad you quoted this. Scoundrel could be more debuff and control oriented with more survivability and bonus damage on dazed targets. Maybe after a rebalance, Scoundrel's damage should be a little less than an Executioner's when comparing raw damage, as Scoundrel will have some tactic assets. As for Executioner, my thesis remains. He should do great damage on a single hit, or when finishing off an enemy. Having him deal 10% damage [that will have reached 50% already when enemy gets on half health] from the start-up and on every single hit when enemy is 100% HP is absurb, or having him deal the Shadow of Demise in smaller hits, is what I'm saying. "Deal as much damage as possible in a single strike", remember ? You slip out of stealth to strike your enemy down with one silent hit, and him surviving only gives him time till he suddenly feels the killing pain from the shadow of death over him. A sudden single.. executioning hit. Not another constant buff or DoT damage.
Shocking Execution is absolutely necessary in PVP for TRs to stay competitive, so removing it isn't an option.
Indeed that was the case always, and when we say "TR" now we basically talk about an MI Executioner, and that should change. You focus on keeping MI as he is (which is the only option, and that because of the Infiltrator features and since you wouldn't touch precious SE and ItC) and over-buffing Executioner (who is again the only option, and actually very competitive). Whisperknife should be on par with Master Infiltrator, an alternative build with pros and cons. Scoundrel should have some nice changes (maybe include something for Immune targets?) in order to be a unique, strong path for TRs. My opinion is that Shocking Execution (and Courage Breaker) are the things that should be toned down. Executioner should remain as he is (he is trully competitive both PvP.. and PvE!), no need to put more and more buffs on him. With your suggestions Whisperknife and Scoundrel are still lackluster... what if you put some (not-well-thought) buffs on Scoundrel, when you put over-buffs at the already successful Executioner. And you didn't suggest much on TR Powers, besides buffing greatly his strongest, again, asset - Duelist's Flurry.
It doesn't work on stealth, and for limited time [...]
About Shadowborn, you're implying that a TR can't re-enter Stealth with Shadow Strike or Invisible Infiltrator and have double Power for 5 seconds on top of the stealth bonuses and feat/feature buffs.
But don't say poorly thought over buffs when your main suggestion leaves a dead path dead for the sake of "suffering from the direct hits to their skull"
hey, at least I'm not the one that suggested giving a 5 second buff of DOUBLE Power every 6 seconds.
That's pretty much all the points I wanted to make. As the players expect developers to make the most of their feedback when going through a class balance, I hope your team as well will take any positive or negative, constructive or non-constructive feedback and make your suggestions more fitting.
Edit: corrected my mistake on Shadowborn and re-stealth
Post edited by stathisjoestar on
You may win a thousand fights, but you can only lose one.
Comments
1. Duellist's Flurry seems to "skip" hits when the game is lagging. I am not sure how to describe it properly... It seems as if the animation is not working properly and the number output (at least on the screen, haven't cross checked yet with ACT) seems to be significant less frequent.
2. This one is reproducable (hence more easy to fix than others maybe). Enter stealth, dodge towards an opponent and hit Lashing Blade immediatly after the dodge animation has finished. The power will not proc. You'll see the Lashing Blade's animation and hear its sound, but it is not proc'ced. Fortunatly it will also not go on cooldown, but it is still a bug.
I have noticed ofc that every time someone writes a constructive post full of ideas there's always one person who believes; (a) they are a genius, (b) everyone else's suggestions are dumb, & (c) indulge in put downs rather than add ideas. Of course when you actually get to hear their ideas they are always worse than the ones they are criticising, which is probably why they are reticent about putting them forward to begin with...
I don't personally have enough experience with the class to add anything to the class specifics other than throwing into the mix the thought that perhaps the pve boost could be neutralised in pvp by adding tenacity to piercing damage - I've not calculated the impact of course, just putting it forward as a possibility.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
I came from a world first WoW horde guild all bosses cleared and 3500 + rating.i played a rogue also.
The first thing I had to do was throw everything I learned about rogueing out the window as in Neverwinter it is soooo much different.
The way stealth works in Neverwinter kinda throws me for a loop but that's another topic.
The problems I see are
1. Just not many viable build choices 90% of us just MI/executioner
I would love to see a viable scoundrel build .(I know Noto has a sabo rogue and does it well ) I tried but man just too used to exec.
2. Our main paragon skills need to be looked at
Like SoD procs 2 of 3 times and when it does it's on the wrong mob or most mobs are already dead so really it's viable for bosses only.
Stealth you come out way too fast anything drains stealth Hitting,damage,ITC,farting..
3. Survivabilty. Lifesteal is cool and can keep us up most times thru damage but as the mods progress and things get harder almost anything can one shot us .we just don't have many survival tools as bosses can see thru stealth now and every thing and it's cousin has crazy 360 degree aoe which as a melee class are unavoidable .
I understand the glass cannon thing but what I don't get is other dps mainly the best now
GWF can put out major dps and has much more survivabily maybe can't face tank but can sure stand in there and go to work ,and CW is ranged so don't have to be in the red to do damage
Rogue doesn't have either of these options
The fourth issue is group usefulness
Rogues are great dps when played right and have a limited CC capability
But when choosing a group dps and there's a choice between a TR ,GWF,SW CW
The other classes can offtank ,debuff,cc,buff
All useful group abilities besides just DPS there is just not a reason to pick a TR .
It's like that old song ,"anything you can do I can do better!"
Now forgive me this is coming from a non BiS rogue 38k non buffed power 63% armor pen 74% noncompanion gift crit 27% lifesteal 5k recovery so I still have ways to go and a lot to learn
The biggest proportion of the damage TRs do in PVE comes from duelist's flurry. Depending on the build, even conservatively, it accounts for greater than 30% of TR's overall damage. [...] Our suggestion is to make a single flurry add all 10 stacks of bleed.
So this At-will is more than 30% of your overall damage and your suggestion is to make it reach max stacks of Bleed far easier and constantly. That would make it deal even more damage (one DF combo would be more than enough, since it provides the Bleed of 2-3 combos), AND provide the TR space for adding even more damage (again) since you'll need less DF combos and you'll hit with (let's say) Sly Flourish now. Maybe its damage should be toned down first ?
The reason you suggest this is that this melee At-will can't actually hit a Boss that moved away in a ranged distance. Needless to say that this melee At-will already has a mechanism to follow moving targets, but balance is not an option here ->
enemy is NPC? ok, one-click Duelist's Flurry ... enemy is PC? ok, one-click Shocking Execution ... there, balance.
I believe it is already well-thought and realistic DnD-wise, to go on a flurry of hits, chasing your target, and have some hits slip by and cause bleed to your target. That's how it was meant to be and it respects the Rogue's playstyle.
25% damage bonus from a feat (that actually applies constantly on PvE mobs and PvP!) is honestly so much already.
Again you disrespect the whole Scoundrel feat-tree purpose (a back alley brawler who avoids damage, dazes target, and deals extra damage to the affected one) and you just add a 25% damage bonus. The effect is called Skullcracker for a reason.
Yet another idea on this Capstone: (just throwing the idea to have it affect in some other way an Immune target)
"Every 15 seconds you gain the Skullcracker effect.
Skullcracker: Your next Encounter power now also Dazes the target for 4 seconds. Your attacks extend this Daze by .5 seconds, up to a maximum of 2 additional seconds. You deal 25% more damage to targets affected by this Daze.
Immune targets take 50% of your next Encounter power's damage as Piercing damage instead, suffering from the direct hit to their skull."
This is an amazing Capstone feat already, it gives 20% stealth regen and saves you from the stealth interruption. Also it deals a great amount (of Piercing damage no less) from the damages you did while in stealth. Having it tick makes it even more overpowered.
As for Deathknell and Last Moments, they don't need a change, they're strong and suitable for the Executioner's style, dealing a lethal killing blow.
This is supposed to be a hit that marks the enemy's body, a reminder of the pain that weakens the foe. A debuff.
As for which debuffs should be capped or uncapped, that's a great balancing issue.
TL;DR: Hold your horses (or any other mounts) with all those (balanced) damage bonuses and don't switch stuff that don't make sense with the Rogue's playstyle.
You may win a thousand fights, but you can only lose one.
The game we are playing is defined by a series of changes that has distorted what the classes are meant to be. TR is still more or less the same role aince Beta, with a bit more AOE. CW basically the same, AoE damage and control. GWF is not what it was initially designed to be. Beta to Mod 4 the class was tank or 'off tank' less aggro management than GF but more AoE damage. Nerfs and buffs happened through mod 4 when suddenly the biggest part of tankiness got removed but not all. Suddenly class is just DPS but still not squishy like the others. GWF wasn't designed to be DPS. Its like if devs nerfed everything but Conq spec on GF and buffed its damage.
I dont know what your expectations of TR are but they are certainly not similar to expectations of the people who worked on this.
@mousebreaker85#4641 Was funny reading this, many same thoughts. I came from WoW too where i played Rogue as well. I agree that all we learned about Rogue class was not of help in NW and as you said difference in Stealth mechanic was a hard thing to swallow. "anything you can do I can do better!" - this pretty much sums it up.
P.S. Too much LS, get a bit more recovery
1. Are you BiS ? Do you have 100% crit chance (from stats, etc) ?
2. What spec you are ? Exe, Sabo, Scoundrel ?
3. What rotation you use on Drufi ?
4. What rotation on mob packs like CN ?
5. What rotation on the FBI climb up ?
6. How well you are doing compared other competent players in other classes in the above cases?
Some of your comments leave me the impression you base your suggestions on a very theoretical and tooltip based read, and not practice. I'm not saying good suggestions can't come from this, but then I'll know how to approach the difference in our opinion better.
For example SoD piercing damage, it's a mere representation choice and can be non-pircing but calculated before DR for exactly the same effect.
Or the issue with "that actually applies constantly on PvE " while referring to "affected by Control effects" - There is a 'minor' issue with control effects and mobs now, as in general the non trash is control immune. And slows (movement speed reduction) is not calculated into this afaik.
Also a small point, why class balance and class buff are mutually exclusive ?
[sorry for my english, I'm not a native speaker of it lol]
It's sad that most tr players follow only one build, with same power rotation and companions. Until mod 4, or 5, I can't remember well, we had some variety of builds. Also, we had some really nice feats, like Dazzling blades, Catspaw Style, Underhand tactics and much more.
The biggest issue with our class is that we are like ducks... we can dps, we can debuff/cc, we have some survivability but... we don't do that efficiently. TR's was meant to be a squishy and deadly class on 1x1 combat, and we can't even do that without a good buffer/bondings r12 and so on... that's why we need a rework/balance. Also, Combat Advantage should be our "best friend and lover" but we don't have any feat/class feature that improve it and make it worth to focus. I'm saying by myself, I always played focusing on Deflect/CA, and my friends and guildies asked "why do you focus on DEX/CHA instead of STR/DEX? you don't wanna be top dps?" and this always make me sad... you know, dungeons should be a group effort, not a race to see who is the biggest dps [and frankly, even tankers do higher dps than dps classes...] and tr's should be boss killers. And as TR I always knew that my role was cc a little here, dps a little there and during boss fights, just burn them to the ground. We have 3 paragon, and only 1 it's really viable and used.
Many ppl are saying that this will brake the "balance" on pvp and make tr's even more deadlier. Well, it's time to devs start working on powers in a way they work differently on pvp and pve, or reduce their effectiveness on pvp [and it's not only for tr's, but for all classes].
I know I may have sounded a little grouchy and complain, and so I apologize. But it's just my toughts.
BTW, I agree with the proposed changes and really hope devs could take a look at it and give some love to tr's.
+20% single target. +35% AoE damage. Ok, so we get around 20-25% damage increase in cases of AoE (mitigation debuff has other sources, so is bound to relative increase).
But for bosses / long fights we get ~40% dps at about 44% uptime. So lets call it +17% ?
We got AoE buff, but I think as compared to todays ability to have high uptime for SoD using invisible infiltrator. We got single target reduction. Few things to notice, 100% power is a lot less than 100% damage. About 2 times less.
In my previous suggestion:
At 20k power adding 20k more is 33% damage increase.
At 30k power adding 30k more is ~42% damage increase.
At 50k power adding 50k more is ~55% damage increase.
At 250k power adding 250k more is ~85% damage increase.
At 500k power adding 500k more is ~92% damage increase.
It does scale up, and keeping it for a time after stealth makes it a significant buff. BUT It will not allow stealth + shadowborn.
Also as you can see the scaling is diminishing, and capped at 100% (asymptotically)
hence lessening the damage spikes and making an easier rotation (less prone to mistiming). It's also controllable by the time length, and animation length.
While next encounter after entering stealth will allow x2 from shadowborn + stealth assured crit (and your proposed stealth change) and feats that affect it. I think this is a bit burst heavy ? Add first strike class feature and though afaik VP is more or less useless in PvP and only works against players lacking tenacity (as is probably lashing) but as you yourself said we have a problem here. I'm not sure what range you were aiming for. But at 200k power (not rare with good buffs, this will be 108% dps increase. This is significantly more than the expected ~30% for the BiS PvE player. For that more or less single hit from stealth.
Also this is still has the fundamental issue that in PvE you need to stack crit and you didn't solve it's waste as a stat when you enter stealth.
While PvP players stack more power and less crit, afaik, so now you shifted the balance even more there. I'm looking forward for suggestions in a more sober state. Could be, though as we know it's not uncommon to get 30% in a single button, especially in buff / self buff encounters. And the stealth mechanic should be much more defining for TRs.
Also it rises an interesting question, how much unstoppable adds in terms of dps for example? Or CoI including all the procs from it like SS and chill stacks ? I hope you are joking here. This is "how to kill a class".
This is an issue many games have gone thru and most have learned long ago you can't balance both without changing the coding of one
The main issue is the average player has between 100k to 200k health but they are trying to balance powers in a pve system in which the mobs have 20-300 million health
So any buffed burst damage class like TR is doing 100k to 200k hits when everything is locked and loaded which against a mob is not even 1% of Thier health but against players ...yeah.
They need a pvp rework .
Maybe redo tenacity coding to compensate or kill companion gift buffs in pvp .or give all players a flat item level like in destiny or D.C. Online
When mobs have a disproportionate health to players it's hard to balance powers and make them effective for one without ruining the other
On a side note yes I intended for shadowborn to do as i described and I am aware that it deals more in most cases than x2 power would. It is designed in the first place to deal with power softcap after 180-190k power is passed so trs dont underachive in those cases and for compensation for PVP skills changes that I might talk about later. Read again please, this time carefully - I said base power increases the amount, meaning buffed power is excluded. The idea here is to reduce dps pie part of duelist which in total is always above 30%. Duelist direct damage would not be affected but only bleed damage meaning it would reduce it roughly around 10-12% (not completely sure it was some time ago I last checked TR tests)
It have 3 pros the way I see it.
1 - bleeds apply faster with only 1 rotation leaving some space for sly to be combined since it does tad more direct damage. (combo giving 1.5-2.3% more dmg than pure flurry spam)
2 - bleeds are easier and faster to reapply once buff spike rises.
3 - teleport addition gives you more mobility that in my opinion tr desperately needs on moving bosses such as Drufi.
Those changes are among else targeting to fix a gap that pvp TRs would feel after change made to shocking execution.
SE - no direct damage dealing skill should deal all its damage as piercing damage, since that disrespects defense stats in pvp as well as other players' armor penetration. Therefore piercing damage would be limited to 1/3rd of damage at best that SE deals. I am aware that most damage is done outside of stealth, and I was addressing an issue about stealth mechanism being too pale and not so useful for TRs. Of course damage increase is meant for stealth else it would be ridiculous and too overpowered. If Blur himself read what I wrote more carefully he also would conclude that statement i made : '' making tab button adding 30% + dmg to tr via severity which is in my opinion ridiculous for a single tab button. '' is targeting stealth mechanism only.
Hmm, I think that's all I wanted to reply to for now
THC
http://www.theholycrusaders.com/
If you understood Stealth suggestion in the first place you would not suggest what you suggested, in your opinion a logical move.
"But @srijimbofrancis
Since damage from Stealth is incomparable to damage out of Stealth, this what you assumed is certainly not a next logical move.
You complained that shadowborn + stealth combo is over the top, and you suggest to buff it even more.
Your stealth suggestion is 20% dps buff on key press, favors high power builds (PvP) and doesn't solve the crit stat scaling.
You are so adamant against the stealth change but practically suggest the same thing, but a soultion that solve less things...
Mobility ? When you forcibly jump at random timings ? Some of us, don't stay and watch everything that has DF on it die, DF and keep going. I don't need ruberband mechanism to bring me back to an almost dead critter when I'm already on the next target.
Halving the speed of bleed ticks is simply reducing their damage by half. So you changed SoD, and you reduce bleed, where is "+20% single target" ?
You also ignored some of the other issues. But discussion brings ideas...
Btw what spec are you playing ? exe ? sabo ? PvP ? PvE?
I do not understand however what you meant by - I killed SOD. As i said I probably forgot some topics I should have addressed, so please do remind me about them if you expect response on such.
I used to play TR a lot up until mod8 when i lost my interest in it, maining other class. Used to be exe mostly for pve but played pvp too. Now tr is my alt where I mostly look for new things and ideas to test so following that logic i am currently sabo pve spec.
THC
http://www.theholycrusaders.com/
1. Your suggestions would buff TR class far higher than what we suggested which is minimal.
2. Your point of view is influenced by your main class - HR. TR's are not base power stackers, TR operates fine with 30-35k base power. Going 40k+ is something you do as a HR, you dont need recovery as much as we do so u dont have anything else to stack.
3. TR's will push crit % as close to 100% as possible and we are fine with diminishing returns from severity, be it contradictory in your opinion or not. We are suggesting overflow stat to be turned into small overall buff.
4. What's the problem with our dps pie chart? So far i know yours doesnt look much better, even more disbalanced. You want us TR's to suggest changes for HR because we dont like how your dps pie chart looks like?
5. Our suggestions create a minimal overall buff of the class, much lower than what you suggest. So im asking you, what is wrong with our suggestions. They are fine but you would just like it more for it to go your way?
6. I dont know when your played TR but not in last 18 months.
My expectations of the class is to be balanced (and reworked a little), especially to make the Whisperknife and Scoundrel paths to be on par with the MI Executioner. As for the expectations of the people who worked on this, I just have to point out that many of your suggestions are limited to adding a 25%-40% bonus here and there.
Duelisty's Flurry - For no reason the Rogue can throw 10 Bleeds at his opponent in one combo, just for the sake of damage. It's supposed to be a flurry of hits that chase the enemy and frantically bypass his defences here and there to wound and bleed him.
Skullcracker - You just made it a constant 30% buff. Just that. It's the Scoundrel capstone, put some thought into it actually.
Low Blows - yay 40% ! It's like Scoundrel is not competitive because Low Blows is underwhelming. I know it doesn't work on bosses, but it works on mobs and on pc players. 40%, where else you saw that?.. Like let's say, half the damage bonuses of all classes (not counting Capstones) are 5%-15% more damage if a prerequisite/restraint is met, and the other half are an underwhelimg weapon damage bonus.
Deathknell/Last Moments: Again you want to give a constant no-restraint straight 5% up to 25% bonus (multiplied x2, for both feats) as soon as the enemy is on 100% of his HP, down to 40% of his HP. That's pretty much the opposite of how those feats or the whole Executioner idea should work (meaning when the target reaches below half HP you execution him with 25% plus 25% more damage). So the enemy at 70% HP would receive 25% more damage (12,5% + 12,5%, for both feats) because its his last moments and you are executioning him?.. Very convenient to add everywhere and all the time a significantly huge buff.
Wicked Reminder - The staying wound on the enemy's body is inconvenient to the need for adding perma-cheesy-damage everywhere, since it's a debuff (and capped). Solution = that wound is now a party buff 30%.
Shadowborn - While we're buffing, why not give Executioner another buff, this one will only DOUBLE his Power FOR 5 SECONDS...
There's a difference between suggestions and buffs, is what I'm saying. I'm not saying "NO" to every suggestion, I just point out that some of those (the ones that are in the format of "Ok, let's add 25% damage, and make it constant") are not even suggestions, some of those are poorly-thought over-buffs. You could work on some great ideas instead of forcing buffs even when not needed.
Suggestions should be an attempt to work out how to make a power/feat more competitive and fitting. That's my previous take on Scoundrel's Skullcracker:
Skullcracker: Your next Encounter power now also Dazes the target for 4 seconds. Your attacks extend this Daze by .5 seconds, up to a maximum of 2 additional seconds. You deal 25% more damage to targets affected by this Daze.
Immune targets take 50% of your next Encounter power's damage as Piercing damage instead, suffering from the direct hit to their skull."
The idea is to have an Immune target suffer the skullcracking hit in lethal Piercing damage, instead of having it daze him/making him vulnerable to more damage. And it could be changed, maybe the damage is too little, or it shouldn't be restrained to just one encounter, or it shouldn't be piercing at all, or it should be more/less than 50% etc. For example:
"Immune targets take 50% of your Encounter powers' damage as Piercing damage for 4 seconds, suffering from the direct hits to their skull."
You may win a thousand fights, but you can only lose one.
I had a good laugh reading this.
Your expectations for TR are obviously very different from ours, we can agree to disagree.
Skullcracker - read carefully, i dont know where u see a constant buff. Every 15 secs you get buffed for 6 secs.
Low blows - up to 40% from current 25% with a condition that target is controlled. To meet that condition on a boss you would have to use Courage Breaker which is inferior to Lurkers Assault. Scoundrel is already way behind Executioner so nothing here is too much.
Deathknell and Last moment currently dont work on any mobs, dont have time to activate. We get full boost on boss when he is at 30% HP left. They dont last long when they are already at 30% HP.
Wicked Reminder - If we tried to satisfy you we could rename this power into Frenzied Party if that is how you look at this, but as i said in my earlier replies we are not trying to satisfy anyone.
Shadowborn - I agree that originally presented suggestion is probably too much. I wrote later that current one is fine if developers can exclude it from activating on dots, atwills and SE.
You still didnt tell us about this which was for you:
"Before I'll go into answering by points, I would like to ask few things as looks like your experience on TR is excessively different from mine:
1. Are you BiS ? Do you have 100% crit chance (from stats, etc) ?
2. What spec you are ? Exe, Sabo, Scoundrel ?
3. What rotation you use on Drufi ?
4. What rotation on mob packs like CN ?
5. What rotation on the FBI climb up ?
6. How well you are doing compared other competent players in other classes in the above cases? "
Duelisty's Flurry - Who said that there is no reason that a flurry can't stack 10 bleeds? Lets say it's special attack that cuts the target. You have issue with 10, no problem, lets have 5 bleeds out of a flurry of 10 with each bleed stack twice the original damage. Or more so, who said bleeds can't do "death by thousand cuts" by the roleplaying vision, lets uncap the bleed stack fully.
Scoundrel - I'll mostly refrain from this path, as I don't like it. It's practically dead, It's constrains do not meet when it matters.
btw what is "pc players"?
By how much in DPS a scoundrel will be behind (or where you think it's now?) in your experience in end game content ? And what this path provide in such environment (FBI, SP , MSVA) ? Tankiness irrelevant, you either alive or you dead, not muhc in between. TRs are not a tank. Utility ? There is smoke bomb, tank, and a lot of CC immune targets, so what's the point ? PvP ? Doesn't work there either..
The issue is the 40% feat? No problem lets buff some of the encounters and at-wills by 30% direct buff like similar DC change recently and call it a day.
What you suggest for this path, to bring it on par, because now it's behind by what? 200%-300% ? Or sure, find me a scoundrel that is on-par in the above content and lets see what they think will help their brethren to get to the same levels.
What 50% of the next encounter gives ? This is not CW here that has constant multi-proccing encounters running in the background, like CoI, Icy, Fanning, etc.. Your most likely encounters either have longer CD than their counterparts in other classes or weak.
Our encounters are currently mainly for AoE. And single target relay mainly on at-wills. You are using a capstone to give 50% additional encounter damage out of negligible amount in the not fitting scenario. As in -> immune targets -> most damage at wills. -> adding 50% of next encounter gives almost nothing. Worse, even for large targets they will be dead before encounter CD, that leaves only bosses. Where you have
Scoundrel cheesed their way to not being "so horribly behind that the healadin does more DPS" using lightning, lurkers and BF. This is plain and simple cheese and not a class balance. And even using it, still the path is dead.
Deathknell/Last Moments - Again, whos interpretation of what executioner should look like we are arguing here ?
let me quote you the mod4 dev blog:
"Executioner: Uses stealth to try and deal as much damage as possible in a single strike. "
"Scoundrel: A brawler who debuffs foes and can take a lot of damage. "
And again why suggestion and a buff are mutually exclusive ? Yes some of the suggestion are a buff. Plain and simple buff.
They are "poorly-thought over-buffs" no problem, bring up "well thought non-over buffs" that will bring executioner on par with the other PvE classes without some 'interesting' mechanics like lurkers+BF or WW stacking.
Also please tell me what I need, deathkneel, twisted grin, exposed weakness, and questionably shadowborn now ?
t4,t5 feats that work only on paper. But in practice they do almost nothing.
You jump on double power for 5 seconds, how much it is in actual DPS ? When the most you can stack as base is 40k'ish now. It doesn't work on stealth, and for limited time, meaning one flurry and encounter, or sly set and encounter or 2. And you still need to activate SoD with something else, so you can't just spam mindlessly.
Don't like the 5 seconds? lower the up-time.. the original is an example.. But next attack simply doesn't work. And the current one allows stealth + shadowborn.
But don't say poorly thought over buffs when your main suggestion leaves a dead path dead for the sake of "suffering from the direct hits to their skull"
Seems like you were right. I noticed the same thing about DF, even worse sometimes its starting over and over and wont even go into flurry animation. I dont know what causes this and im not expert in testing things but here are ACT results of one DF, which is normally 8 hits but here i got only 4.
Edit: Total hits of DF are 11, 2+9. Not counting the bleed ticks. So in this Screenshot, instead of 9 hits in Flurry i had only 2, 7 were skipped.
I was thinking about an idea for Deathknell/Final Moments change...
Deathknell: When you activate Shadow of Demise, you gain a 25% damage bonus for 7 seconds. Deathknell is moved to a Tier 4 feat.
Final Moments: Shadow of Demise grants you a damage bonus 1-5% damage bonus for every time it ticks (excluding the final tick, for obvious reasons). Final Moments is moved to a Tier 5 feat. (Optional: possible rename?).
I'm assuming we're going with the "Shadow of Demise ticks every second during its duration" change, because I think it still keeps Shadow of Demise unique as a capstone feat but gives Demise a much needed burst DPS boost.
I don't need to talk about why current Deathknell/Final Moments sucks. These are moved to Tier4/5 since a Tier4/5 feat means you're practically comitted to picking up Shadow of Demise anyways, so might as well make these unique to the ExeTR's shtick. These feats aren't gamebreaking, as they are still tied to the TR's finesse and timing: you only get these with Shadow of Demise, so you need to make your Shadow of Demise count.
One thing I realize in hindsight is that you can't actually use them until you get the Executioner capstone.
I thought about tying them to stealth, but then I realized that if it was tied to Stealth, wouldn't Shocking Executioner TR oneshots become worse (or flat out unsurvivable)?
And in terms of non level 55 TRs: I realize that these 10 feat points become useless until you get the capstone, but I personally think that, at level 40-54, content is easy enough that missing these feats shouldn't matter too much. The TR problem of high skill cap to low reward only really becomes an issue at level 70.
Thoughts, opinions?
@rjc9000 Thanks for suggestions. Thing is, about Deathknell, we can have SoD up time 100% or at least close to it, so that would be permanent 25% buff to additional 50% buff which we already get from SoD itself. About Last Moments, not sure how you imagined it. SoD every tick gets higher by 5% or we get 5% damage buff for some time which stacks?
Also you tied it to SoD, means no SoD no Deathknell and Last Moments, we dont really activate it on mobs phases so means no use from these feats still. It is possible depending which encounters TR uses for mob phases but i think it would hurt the rotation.
Thanks again but in my opinion much higher buff than what we suggested.
But when I look at dps numbers we really fall behind on reg mobs then catch up in DPSwhen the boss fight comes.but as boss mechanics are changing with them moving around . It hurts as we have no moving attacks.
So if we get a buff I think it must come from at wills or an aoe power which off hand I rarely use anything besides smoke..maybe blade fury if I'm feeling salty about everyone else aoe'ing everything while I plink away at my single target lol.
Duelists flurry don't get me started..
The animation i would love to see gone I've gotten killed many times stuck in it and can't move or stop it.also when fighting a close pack of mobs I get ticks going around 70-90k and leave the mob to die focus on another only to have DF pull me back to the original mob ..
It's kinda a pain.I would love to see SOD changed to a Shorter duration maybe 25% every 3secs to 50% but not sure if we can build up decent damage in 3secs or not
Note I made the description "when you activate Demise". You get Deathknell, but probably not Moments on mobs due to how I imagined the stacking buff be (mobs will die before you hit 6 ticks of Demise anyways)
However, this is is why I prefaced that I don't know the TR extremely well. I lack the timing for perma SoD on bosses, so that's probably I didn't realize how often one can activate Demise.
Perhaps adjust the numbers a bit?
I changed my encounters setup, im procing SoD with Lashing Blade which has quite a long cooldown so i dont have SoD up 100% but for those who have Dazing Strike slotted it is no problem to keep it up always.
The top hit is with fully stacked DF bleed and the bottom 1 is a single stack. The numbers are actually (with complete decimals) 2447.28 and 222.48.
2447.28/222.48 = 11.
DF bleed stacks 11 times.
Maybe you should put suggestions that respect the actual DnD background ?
My suggestion was just a simple idea, not the whole Scoundrel rework. Scoundrel tree relies on survivability via deflection/life steal/back alley insight and fighting an enemy via dazing him/gaining advantage over him.
What you turn the Scoundrel path to is.. the path that does 30% damage (so that he can catch up to the fresh buffs put on Executioner). You can still make Scoundrel strong by respecting his role maybe, that's my actual suggestion when I referred to Skullcracker. Examples is having him deal extra damage on controlled enemies, having him do piercing damage on immune targets, or gain combat advantage over immune targets etc. These are mere ideas I personally had, that potentially could fit on Scoundrel, the damage of course would be adjusted. Ignoring a whole class tree though and replacing it with "Scoundrel is the path that.. em does 30% damage lol" is forced buffing and lack of imagination.
"Scoundrel: A brawler who debuffs foes and can take a lot of damage. "
Glad you quoted this. Scoundrel could be more debuff and control oriented with more survivability and bonus damage on dazed targets. Maybe after a rebalance, Scoundrel's damage should be a little less than an Executioner's when comparing raw damage, as Scoundrel will have some tactic assets.
As for Executioner, my thesis remains. He should do great damage on a single hit, or when finishing off an enemy. Having him deal 10% damage [that will have reached 50% already when enemy gets on half health] from the start-up and on every single hit when enemy is 100% HP is absurb, or having him deal the Shadow of Demise in smaller hits, is what I'm saying. "Deal as much damage as possible in a single strike", remember ? You slip out of stealth to strike your enemy down with one silent hit, and him surviving only gives him time till he suddenly feels the killing pain from the shadow of death over him. A sudden single.. executioning hit. Not another constant buff or DoT damage.
Indeed that was the case always, and when we say "TR" now we basically talk about an MI Executioner, and that should change.
You focus on keeping MI as he is (which is the only option, and that because of the Infiltrator features and since you wouldn't touch precious SE and ItC) and over-buffing Executioner (who is again the only option, and actually very competitive).
Whisperknife should be on par with Master Infiltrator, an alternative build with pros and cons. Scoundrel should have some nice changes (maybe include something for Immune targets?) in order to be a unique, strong path for TRs.
My opinion is that Shocking Execution (and Courage Breaker) are the things that should be toned down. Executioner should remain as he is (he is trully competitive both PvP.. and PvE!), no need to put more and more buffs on him. With your suggestions Whisperknife and Scoundrel are still lackluster... what if you put some (not-well-thought) buffs on Scoundrel, when you put over-buffs at the already successful Executioner.
And you didn't suggest much on TR Powers, besides buffing greatly his strongest, again, asset - Duelist's Flurry.
About Shadowborn, you're implying that a TR can't re-enter Stealth with Shadow Strike or Invisible Infiltrator and have double Power for 5 seconds on top of the stealth bonuses and feat/feature buffs.
hey, at least I'm not the one that suggested giving a 5 second buff of DOUBLE Power every 6 seconds.
That's pretty much all the points I wanted to make. As the players expect developers to make the most of their feedback when going through a class balance, I hope your team as well will take any positive or negative, constructive or non-constructive feedback and make your suggestions more fitting.
Edit: corrected my mistake on Shadowborn and re-stealth
You may win a thousand fights, but you can only lose one.