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Pink Panther's VERY Critical Templock Review.
etelgrin
Member Posts: 1,611 Arc User
Hello !
I did some review on Temptation Scourge Warlock Path, it is quite critical so if you're soft, in love with templock, you think its amazing or uber buffer or has irreplacable spot in parties this video is not for you. I mention most things that should but doesnt proc with Templock, I mention it's PvP problems, it's hidden unmentioned by anyone else beside me nerfs to Eldritch Momentum, poorness of its passives, double mitigation for its Soul Bonding captsone, its flaws like for example it doesnt heal warlock itself, which is sorta like let DC heals not affect DC itself and see how it goes and many more.
Reason for this video is to force temptation rework which was promised to us OVER year ago, when module stronghold came.
I did some review on Temptation Scourge Warlock Path, it is quite critical so if you're soft, in love with templock, you think its amazing or uber buffer or has irreplacable spot in parties this video is not for you. I mention most things that should but doesnt proc with Templock, I mention it's PvP problems, it's hidden unmentioned by anyone else beside me nerfs to Eldritch Momentum, poorness of its passives, double mitigation for its Soul Bonding captsone, its flaws like for example it doesnt heal warlock itself, which is sorta like let DC heals not affect DC itself and see how it goes and many more.
Reason for this video is to force temptation rework which was promised to us OVER year ago, when module stronghold came.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rr0ogHw15HM1
Comments
Warlocks healing ablities are not counted as "healing" since mod 6, and passiv procs from boons do not work for a warlock.
The reason for that change were endless loops of procs from "Burning Guidance", wich crashed the testserver before mod 6 hit.
As long as DC spends "godmode" to the hole raid, nothing will change I am sure.
Even if they simply nerf AA nothing will change, some DC´s switch to faithfull tree.
Doing so you can outperform every templock by spending the capstone "Agent of Devine" combined with AS/dAS. They lose either weapon of light (powerbuff) or gift of haste (AP buff) but a warlock has nothing compareable like a "second life" from Agent capstone, a 40% DR buff or a 40% damagebuff/50% debuff from BtS
The mSVA setup will be like "lfm for mSVA, need rightous/buffer DC plus faithfull cleric"
Xbox GT -- Mr Shabok
My Guide
Now perhaps need to clear couple important stuffs.
1) stop comparing DC and tempt warlock in term of healing. It's nonsense.
Only Paladins can be compared to temlocks. Due similaraties. Both are wide Area healers.
Both become healers in similar way.
Paladins in start is tank> then through paragon path and feats become healer.
Warlock by nature striker, through feats become healer.
DC by nature supporter, and only due feats can enchant owns damage output.
So as you can see compare temp and DC its like to compare tank and TR. They both close range fight classes, both dealing damage, but their gameplay is different.
So as tempt warlock you can't use DC gameplay.
2) warlock healing comes from dealt damage, so picking same boon set which use DC, and having same gameplay = bad healing if you even heal.
Warlock engage in battle directly and by dealt damage restore own and allies HP, While DC and OP can sit in corner out of fight and have good tea party.
So temp warlocks, and other healers(DC, OP ) gameplay are so different, its like try compare oil and watter.. Both are liquids but they are different.
3) Neither DC neither OP can trigger Combat advantage and heal more. In your video I haven't notice that you would do try use CA mechanic. And more dmg = more HP restored.
Also have you remind, that unlike DC or Paladins, warlock can heal even without using slotting healing powers. Thats mean even if I focus on dmg power set, due soul bonding I will heal allies anyway. While DC must use/slot healing spells in encouters bar. And thats mean no dmg.
And this is one of examples that gameplays are different.
4) you mentioned double punishment.. Wrong.
warlocks healing got adjusted by 3 steps alone. When you hit enemy/target, your damage goes through certain stages.
1) reduced due damage resist/tenacity.
2) remained damage calculated by your chance life steal. For example if we ignore damage resist/tenacity and etc, and you deal 10k dmg, and you have 25%, chance life steal. Your healing power will be 2500.
3) if you used aoe power, that 2500 will get reduced even more.. Due current soul bonding, Aoe have only 30% effectivnes. Thats mean 70% goes away. And 2500 become 750.
5) vampiric embrace heal warlock only with 70% effectivness. and soul bonding healing 100% goes only to allies.
Also unlike other powers, vampiric embrace only get adjusted due damage resist. It ignore chance life steal evaluation mechanic.
Also if you flank enemies, and enable CA, your healing become way higher, and it's only real burst like healing power.
It's current weakness is it;s dmg. To fix that, devs should make VE damage piercing by nature.
6) accursed soul is not healing tool, it's panic button to any warlock build. When you have no other way to restore own hp you use this daily power as last resort. .
Brood hadar is better option when you focusing on group healing.
7) warlock bargain, read part 4 and 5
8) templock is no DC, so do not expect that it would have tons of high grade buffings. Templock is pack of buffing, debuffing and healing all in one. To understand that, pick DC, and mix all his feats in 1 tree. That what temp sw is, Not mentioned count other powers which temp share with fury, damnation.
All alone feats are not impresive, but when you play with SW it's important how combinations goes, not certain power alone.
For example, CW's powers are not extreme strong, but combined they do produce high dmg outputs.
9) temtp warlock feats are outdated for sure. They haven't been changed for more than 5 mods. To more precise since warlock introduction in mod 4.
I would like to hear when temtp will get devs atention too. I personally keeping eye on preview forum if happens that devs decide to rework templock.
10) pvp
templock and pvp don't go along. Last time I checked(15 days ago) When I use vampiric embrace I heal allies and enemies alike.. So I don't go to pvp, unless devs finally or by mistake fixed this problem.
But one thing I don't want. Is that making templock DC's copy paste as denvald suggested. , or making tempt Overpowered and killing other support classes.
Each class must have strong and weak side. thats what balance is.
I have my own ideas how to rework templock, by feats only. Without radical changing warlock itself. Some encounters also need rework..
Perhaps I will write them here in forum.. But so far I keep them for time when/if devs decice to rework templock.
But firstly I would like to hear, how far they can go in changing templock. After all there is limits to everything..
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
Does templocks scared you or what?
I do not afraid to hear criticism, by writing whats bad, but I don't like videos or posts when players write 10 reasons NOT PICK templock.
It's like campaign to kill templocks. Encouraging players to give up, and not choose it, and thats eventually encourage developers to ignore templock players.
Have you guys forgot prior mod 10? When warlock community spammed PC discussion forum, asking developers to rework warlock? Does your memories are so short?
If warlock players would not done that, developers would not even bother with warlock class.. They always focus on larger player bases. Who cares about ~2%.
Next, I notice that majority of these critics are guys who play with other build, and point templock weak side by playing with it's build in preview server for about ~2 days.
In such short time it's hard to see whole picture, and all it's capabilities. As I wrote, if you trigger Combat advantage you deal extra damage, and you heal more.
Also Pillar of Power can be used in more than one way which is stand inside and thats it. Also in order to see whole picture, you need to do lot of content run with templocks. Big Heroics, Stronghold DF, Tiamat, e/nDemo. Epic Dungeons and etc. Only then you can argue about templocks strong and weak sides.
Not just having fun in preview server killing couple random trash mobs and expect uber outcome.
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
Templock is a striker/leader and deals higher dps than a DC, but is far behind a pure striker.
http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Class
There is no argument to not compare them, because they compete arround exactly this role - leader !
There is no sense in running a leader setup, in case my damage is "meh" and my buffs are the same as a striker could spend. Noone needs feats like compounded soul, hellish condemnation, soul breaker, aura of despair, darkness tbh. Talking about balance there is a need to talk about effectiveness of a class/role and by that about the fact that a templock is from no interest in the actual state if I can pick another class doing 10 times better.
Only reason to spec for temptree is a "fun aspect" or to watch green numbers.
A DC, specced as full heal can by sure compete with a templock, you only have to know wich feats to take. The fact, that a templock outheals a DC is realted to the fact, that most DC run a buffer setup.
Apart from AA 100% immunity, a DC has lot´s of other tools to mitigate damage on top and dish out consitent good heals not related to a % chance.
If you combine HG (30% DR), Devine Glow is (17,5% DR), Astral Shield (40% DR), Blessing of Battle (15%) and have faith 5% DR, you end up at a 107,5% DR, from wich 67,5% can be considered to be permanent.
Again, as long as there is no place for a hps spamming class with low buffs and near no mititgation tools, there is no interest and no necessity for this setup, sadly.
why u cant see that templock sucks?
u cant compete for the striker spot since dmg is low
u cant compete for the buffer spot since the buffs suck compared to DC
u cant compete for the tank spot since your not a tank
i dont see a spot for temptation at its current state
we dont want ppl to take templock and then wonder why they dont find parties.
they should atleast know what they have to expect when playing templock
Xbox GT -- Mr Shabok
My Guide
And like written above , player in love with that tree should stay out
This is about a tree in need of buffs/improvements and not about someone, known to be unteachable and playing low level dungeons 24/7, sry
Xbox GT -- Mr Shabok
My Guide
Supporting comes in different ways. And thats what makes biggest misunderstanding, also I have repeated many times.
Temptation warlock is balanced build, mixture of 4 roles in one.. Try combine DC which can dps, heal, debuff and buff. And you will see that is not easy task.
While DC sit outside direct fight and buff parties. templock dealing damage, healing, debuffing via own feats and encounters/at wills/daily powers all in same time. And unlike DC templock is more areal focused supporter.
My friend, I am not tank. But my one of achievement is in mod 10, that me as templock, 3 Hr's, 1 Cw, we went to castle never, and cleared without big problem. And group where not 4k GS based players, actually only one HR where 3k Gs. All 4 we where ~2.7k.
Me and my tank companion, tanked all dungeon, plus I healed and buffed.
The reason why we manage to do that, is because party members dodged incoming hits, not sit as ducks and eat hits. This is action mmorpg.
Next, one thing to clear about DC buffing.
His buffing area is limited, only daily powers cover wider area. So players must stay close in group, near boss. Thats make players to eat incoming hits. So bring question, do all players need DC in order complete dungeon? If players dodge incoming hits, use brains, combat tactics, they don't need DC.
WHen I played as furry warlock I so, when parties died lot of times only because non of them DARED to dodge incoming hit, they eat, and latter forum full of complains that x class need extra DR buffing, x class need triple life steal boosting and etc, and then usually chat and voice chat full of complains that supporter suc**er.
You would say, nahh thats impossible played, dodge incoming hits, they are not stupid.. But watch this video, from Kali steaming.
AS you can see, players eat incoming hits. And only kali using dodge Feature.
Templock is balanced supporter, and thats make parties mad. They expect if tank = full tank, if striker = glass canon, if support then full buff, nothing more. If heal, then only max healing.
But templock and damnation are balanced between survivability and dps (damnation), heal, buff and debuff(temptation).
Templock supporting also comes from using warlocks encounters. Dreadtheft, debuff which makes enemies receive more damage from all sources, from other view point, it reduce resistance.
If you say templock suck, then you should talk about over all warlock not about templock.. After all encounters, class features, daily powers, at wills are shared between fury, damnation and temptation.
Unlike others, I look to whole picture, not to certain x power. Also I count gameplay differences too, which so far no one even did that.
@mrshabok,
Some say, high/top end players have decent survivability and no need heal, which point question, why bother with DC, which boost survivability?
Same question goes to @schietindebux too.
The answer is that, players choose glass canon set up, and want that DC cover their weakness with buffs.
Now, as i wrote in upper lines, DC's buffing area is not so wide, so players must stay close in group near boss, so players receive buff, and enemies debuffs. Thats mean no dodging, just eating incoming hits. If do players start dodging, then majority of players in Assault On Svardborg will not receive buffs.
Why do you think in mod 10, SW's Pillar of Power I called DuckOnPlate? because to fully utilize it, you must stay inside effect area together with enemies. Same goes to DC's buffing, enough to mentioned Divine glow.
And templock without PoP gives gameplay where players should use dodge instead brainlessly smash keyboard.
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
1. Temptationlock has no real buffs. The only feat buffing is Dark Revelery and u can take that as Fury too.
2. Its no problem for ppl to get the DC buffs what are u even talking about. even if it would be a problem id rather have area limited buffs then no buffs.
3. Well i dont know which parties u play with but in my parties dying isnt an issue
4. I can solo eCC on my Fury SW. what does that even have to do with our discussion?
5.I know u dont need a DC to finish the content. But why would i take a Templock over a DC when it takes atleast 2x or 3x the time to finish the dungeon.
6.Templock is no balanced supporter. its a close to useless supporter. U can use things like DT and PoP on a fury setup too and then u support and deal a fair amount of dmg.
7. unlike others u are only trying to defend a speck which is very bad and needs a complete rework.
8. u honestly ask why bother with dc? that just shows how little u know about other classes. maybe its cause DCs increase the groups dmg by more then 200%
1: I agree feat path sucks.
It lacks in party support based feats, and the current ones are either useless (endless consumption and that t3 AP thing), not powerful enough to be beneficial (t2 HB feat, aura of despair), or "ok" but significantly worse when compared to feats with similar function (dark revelry). The remaining feats are trash (darkness and t1 lesser curse feat) or win-more and unnecessary (momentum and hope stealer). The capstone's healing component based on LS is alright.
2: No way to heal allies out of combat.
Temptations capstone provides more healing than what is needed IN COMBAT, but in some phases such as valindra laser, lostmouth rockfall, and CN death ball hallway where people are most likely to actually need the healing SW temptation is unable to provide.
3: Lack of mitigation
DC has tons of ways and OP devotion at least has a few ways to reduce incoming party damage, which is objectively more important than healing in the current state of the game where threats will normally one hit kill.
2) when players start to dodge, it's hard to catch them and buff them all in same amount. At first in mod 9 played as heal only, latter build mode buff/debuff focused, yet kept slightly higher healing than usual DC.
3) it's not like we play for real money. I don't mind that too. But players tend to come with glass canon build, fail dodge even simply incoming hit, die, and latter chat become red from complain, rage and ect, Not counting voice chat.
4) some guys manage to do ETos Solo with templock. I pointed, that templock is more tankier than DC. And it where just for that players comparission templock against tank. However everyone know that if tank can't generate agro strong enough to keep attention on him, it's become pointless to try tank at all.
Also I pointed that even without tank you can complete dungeon. Some creativity, more dodging, more team work and thats it. This is action mmorpg, so it's surprise that guys don't use dodge mechanic..
5) don't be so sure.. Firstly yes, DC buff dmg, but his own dmg is low anyways.. So more less if you have 5 players party, 3 dealing damage, 1 tanking, and DC buff.
If you take 4 strikers and 1 tank. Dungeon can be fast, but more danger.
If you pick templock, you get 3 dealing higher damage, 1 tanking, and templock dealing mid range damage.. Yet it's still do support to some range.
6)
7< Probably because other simply hate templocks. Instead thinking how to get devs atention for templocks rework, they run campaing to discourage anyone pick this class and totally abandon it.
When players didn't liked CW's opressor build, they simply wrote what need to be done in order to make it viable, and there where no such situation as it now< 10 reasons why not play with templock, others bring
Prior mod 10 release, there where almost no templocks, me and couple other players started this templocks ressurection.
You know what kind stuffs I faced in first months?
Players accused me of cheating, because by them, warlock should not be able heal, also accused that due unknown power interaction they receive unknown buff which boost dmg(dark revelry), i also had lot of times to explain that aura of cruelity is not glich in buff bar.
But before that, do anyone even dared to resurect templock? No, YOu all lived with DC, and now after someone dared challange u all got mad, and started this kill templock mania.
I can only say,, Good luck. I will not put templock back to coffin for next 5 mods.
8< yeap, Why bother with DC, pick paladin, pick GF . :P
And to surprise you, I have DC too. Do you think I pointed things based on theory or 2 days playtime in preview server.. Nop. I spent time with heal based DC, with debuff/buff dmg build. And last build where mixture, more buff/debuff yet kept stronger healings than normal DC. Now DC work as warehouse.. Lost interest in this class, and moved to back warlock.
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
Xbox GT -- Mr Shabok
My Guide
At first, templock lacks in damage, and this is far more than you posted, Fury capstone is about 30% overall dps.
If you add Helltouched , Executioners Gift and Brutal Curse on top 10%+10%+xy you will end at maybe 40% less damage, wich is significant.
If your personal dps is top to second running dungeons , I would say the buddies you date are maybe "outdated" concerning their playstyle and setup.
In my book warlock is a striker , wich deals solid damage, on top spends some buffs (Pillar+DR)
But this class is not top dps atm. and by sure not with a templock build ( GF>Hunter> "the rest" )
I know that templocks can do good in some dungeons like T2 (eCC, eGWD, eTOS), at CN it might get problematic but that´s where all healer suck, when "the laagy-balls" show up.
If I look at FBI and mSVA, no templock can actually fit the role of a leader like DC or OP can. Take the second boss, no heals no mitigation in between the phase, your party is gonne die and freeze on that isle. Same at boss 1 , templock is gonna suck heavily, missing mitigation and a way to clean that DOT.
So atm. you can run that templock at T1 and T2 for fun, but at actual mod you will slow down everone.
A good setup for mSVA looks like: 2xGF, (1xOP), 2xDC, 2 mof CW, 1xHunter. Let´s take some heavy hitter for the last 2-3 spots.
I run enough random mSVA to say: It absolutely sucks if my party setup get´s destroyed because that "hdps, experienced 12er bonds player" sucks from the first moment and the raid dies because the dps is meh.
The lack of consistent mitigation/heal can´t be compensated, even not with situational not needed 400k heals, Templock is a striker at first place. If that tree get´s reworked, it needs either some more dps or should bring some unique buffs into the party to be accepted.
Btw. we disucss about that tree for a very long time now, >3 years.
It is not about discouraging anyone to play that tree. I stopped reading "someones" posts because they are far from reality and circle arround some low level buffs without any kind of concept or understanding, and I am sick of repeating all those points over and over again like Tom tries atm.
I know what devs told us and I know they simply forgot about their promis to rework that tree, the terminology was like: "Temptation is a special case we want to handle seperately"
It took 2,5 years get a sloppy rework for the hole class. How long will it take for this special case?
At lower lever or solo game temlock is fun, go for it, but in the end you will get problems doing steps outside your guild.
1. Aura of cruelty buffs livesteal thats beyond useless in PvE, Soulbreaker is a very small AP boost but ok its somewhat usefull,
aura of despair is again useless cause no semi competent group has problems with surviving that this feat could even remotly solve, hellish condemnation is same reson as aura of despair.
those are not buffs and debuffs those are junk
so u basicly spec Temptation for 0 DMG buffs and DMG buffs are what ppl want from a support character. Not to reduce enemy dmg, not to buff their livesteal.
2. whats your point? ppl are getting DC buffs even if they are dodging. And again healing is a non factor.
3. well maybe they die because they have a templock in their party instead of a DC.
4.Whats your point? any class can solo etos, ecc, egwd.
5. lets say u have 3 dmg dealers. so in total 300% dmg
now lets say u add a temptation lock that deals 40% (will be less but anyways) and buffs the group with DT, PoP, and DR (did i forgett any dmg buff? xD)
now thats 25% DT (lets say 50% uptime), DR wich buffs 20% base power in my tests it was like 5-10% dmg buff at best and PoP wich is 18% buff for the group.
now with HB fury u can deal 100% of a real striker and buff with DT and DR so u basicly give up 60% of his own dmg for a 5-10% dmg buff
now lets look at a DC. bts, exa, HG, AA, BoB, DG, condeming Gaze, ByS, WoL, BF, just to name a few dmg buffs a Cleric provides
thats on total way above 300% but lets calculate with 300%
so u take the 3 dps players and mutiply their dmg by 300% so u get a total party dmg of 900% even when the DC is doing 0 dmg.
7. noone wants a CW Opressor in PvE. same with templock
8. i alrdy explained why u would take a DC over a templock xD
1) only blind one as u would say that. As i wrote, I alone with Templock manage to keep party through CN dungeon, which is last hardest dungeon for 5 players group. In Assault on Svardborg participate more than 5 players. So in group can be Templock and DC in same time. And they both go well along, Also have you forgot about Paladins?
Seems you are so much in love to DC, that become blind of other classes and their interactions, also have you forgot about CW ?
Also players want from supporter all what they can, some even demand that Supported deal certain amount of dmg.
Also I remind you, I HAVE DC TOO.<<< So don't lecture me what players ask from supporter and what they don't.
Also seems that u are the one who don't have templock with playtime longer than 1 month.
2) Alright, lets take healing out of this matter.. Dodging, and buffing. If I would not played DC for more than 2 months I would take your words as fact.. But<<<< . I played. Now, group dodging, they split in area, And try buff them all in same qauntity/quality and in same time.. For example divine glow.. Try apply this buff two groups in same time... I would like to see that.. . One party in left side, other in right. Buff them, go ahead try... You had to pick one group, other discard. Thats why played don't dodge, they sit in one place, to make sure they receive buffs..
3) wow.. Are you sure that taking DC in party make sure no one dies?? Are you so blinded? Then everyone would pick DC, enter CN or demogorgon, tiamat fight, give middle finger and write, don't bother I have DC as support I can't die. I am immortal..
But the fact DC is not su uper as you think. U are in love with DC, so be it. But don't give me HAMSTER about if you pic DC = u are assured no one dies, and assured you complete dungeons.. I am quite familiar with DC class, his gameplay and buffs.
4) Show me, that any class can do it. And I mean not on paper as you love to do, but in real fight, real video.
5)
3 sttikers 300% dmg , 1 tank =30 % dmg, 1 templock = 60% dmg,<< and its not 40% as you think. If you get in party with templock who is undergeared, have no guild boons as backup and pair again DC with top end gear, full potions ect and 20 lv boons then yeah sure. And thats probably how u do compare.
Buff build DC = ~5% dmg, 3 strikers 300% dmg, as for tank comes situation which is interesting. Some comes with dps build tank and end's up manage to deal more dmg than expected yet manage work as tank.
So I still do give value 40%.
Now no matter how many buffs you use, even if all in game bufffs combined, 5% of DC's damage will not become 70%. Unless you manage to trigger glitch.
So party strikers get 300% dmg boost, cool? Seems yes, Now that boost count when comes to cover DC's lacked DMG output<
7 + 8 ) it's not like don't need, simply players are running for dmg only. and latter complain that this class lack survivability which is nonsense.
Also it's not players don't want, it's only u and perhaps pink panther guy. Simply it's population is not so big that everyone would notice it.
There are still times when I enter dungeon and players start talking that my warlock cause bug, some weird stuff appear in buff bar, named aura of cruelity. Also weirdly Hp got restored due unknown reasons.
Also some guys even accused me of cheating, that I manage to lift parties damage output. They wrote me that furry warlocks can't do that, so no warlock should be able do that..
Also do u think your hatred toward templock will stop me, think again.. I have no intention to put my templock in coffer and wait for next 5 mods till devs finally decide to get attention.. No. I will make sure to increase templocks population to certain ammount which will brings developers attention. U don't like templock OK fine by me, I am not in fan of DC either even I PLAY WITH DC TOO.<< But I don't go like you, claiming that we should not go with templock. .
You like go only with mainstream and afraid other approach, you afraid to invent, you afraid to try do things in new way.
Thats whats is your problem.
YOu afraid, perhaps you also play with DC and afraid that someone will replace you in party..
When players don't like certain class, certain paragon paths, certain build tree, they don't go with it and ignore, you go campaign NOT PICK TEMPLOCK<
Also unlike you I do not afraid pick least popular builds, I do not afraid invent, and look for new ways to deal with upcoming fights..
U like DC, so be it, I don';t mind about it. But stop this HAMSTER about not pick templock, Have you all forgot that Also Assault on Svardborg are multiparty run, so GF, Op< templock< DC CW's can gets there in same time.
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
PS: why is there no ignore function on the forum? my whole body starts hurting when i read stuff like that
Mod 10:
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Killing Flames deals 16636893 (1009292) Fire Damage to Ethraniev Marrowslake.
Mod 9:
[Combat (Self)] Your Murderous Flames deals 376274433 (18876929) Fire Damage to Red Tiamat Head.
What @mrshabok is saying is that healing is generally ignored in higher ilvl parties primarily because of lifesteal. 6000-8000 lifesteal (from the guild boon) is basically 15-20% lifesteal. That's more than enough to keep any striker character healed in content, which is why he doubts that temptlocks are going to remain as strikers that specialize in healing - that's not going to work in the long run. When it comes to buffs and debuffs, however, DCs and Paladins can very easily out-buff or out-debuff the temptlock.
You already know that buff/debuff-wise DC vs warlock is no contest. Righteous DCs already out-debuff you with feats alone (25% total with Condemning Gaze and the recently patched Bear Your Sins) and out-buff you with just dailies like Anointed Army.
Paladins can also be VERY good at buffs/debuffs. They may not have anything on the level of broken AA, but a Justice/Holy hybrid can run Aura Gifts (stronger than Dark Revelry) with encounter power cooldown reduction feats (hard to put a value to these but the gain is significant) plus encounter powers like Aura of Courage or Bane. Their party defensive auras (like Aura of Truth) are stronger than a temptlock's, and they can combine that with other powers like Sanctuary.
Temptlocks still have Dreadtheft, Hand of Blight and Wraith's Shadow (becomes an AoE on curse consume) but with Wraith's Shadow targeting bugged your actual options are very limited.
Now, you are correct that temptlocks are still unique because ultimately they are strikers with some leader abilities, while DCs and Paladins are ultimately leaders with just tiny sprinking of something else (controller, defender, etc).
The problem with what your line of thinking is leading to, @bloodyspammer, is that you can NEVER have a truly balanced leader/striker class. It's impossible to balance, and you could argue that the devs' attempt to fix this likely contributed to what broke mod 6.
Anyone who played through mod 5 will remember the days when people didn't want ANY pure leader OR defender class because everyone was ALREADY a leader/striker thanks to the power creep and the old lifesteal. It was a terrible time to be a dedicated tank or healer.
Even Righteous Clerics (or DPS clerics, as some people call them) are ultimately DEBUFFERS at higher ilvl. Although Righteous Clerics can be very bursty, their sustained DPS pales in comparison to that of a true striker's (Avatar is only up ~50% of the time) which is why buffs/debuffs are prioritized - they generate higher total damage for everyone that way. So they are not truly leader/strikers, but more like leaders who proc party-enhancing effects by attacking. And if in the next few mods AA is rebalanced (like players expect it to be) Righteous will now have to actively try and keep their partymates alive by slotting healing/defensive powers. We'll see what happens.
I think this is the reason why people generally avoid the line of thinking that goes with buffing Temptlock damage and turning it into a really competent striker/DPSer with great leader abilities - because we already know what lies on the end of that road. A lot of folks probably don't want to abandon their old SW builds for the new OP "flavor of the month" temptlock build.
The only solution then is to reverse course and turn the Temptlock into... something else. And yes, it would be better to just wait and see what the devs decide to do with it. Feedback is always nice, but just remember that the great striker + good leader abilities combo is probably never going to happen.
Atm we allready got HEAVILY overbuffed classes like GF, DC, CW, even a Hunter with longstrider is way better than any warlock in terms of buff/dps. In the right hands those classes contribute a full tank/full striker or a full striker and pretty strong leader.
My GF 3.4IL is a tank and buffer (ITF 30% buff, CP 10% debuff, KV 50% shield, mark 8% debuff, DC 10% shield), I did not go into dps on top, too much AD to waste, he gets into any group mSVA/FBI etc.
My DC 3.2IL buffs the party to astronomic power values due to bondings and silly rebuff, fixed this is one way to deescalate the situation. Not to talk about BtS 40% damagebuff/50% debuff , BYS, condem Gaze, WoL, Battel fervor Devine glow, AS 40%DR etc.
If AA gets reworked, i can switch to HG+AS+DG+BtS, by that I will contribute all those heavy buffs and still will outperform any templock 5 times in terms of mitigation and buffs, and my party will be able to survive that turtle in case I do not run with a bunch of scrubs.
My warlock/main 3.5 IL...hm good dps and I like to play him, but hard to get into any of those hated mSVA-scrub-parties, obviously there are enough good striker and warlocks seems to be from minor interest atm like some other strikerclasses, the reason is obviuos (see above). Cryptic is know to do only half baked reworks, small resources bla.bla, sure they have to count all that money
All we can hope to get is a small fix, this small fix should center arround temp tree and tier 4 an 5 feats.
I am realistic and do not think they ever will rework that hole tree/leader role.
All I ask for are buffs/debuffs to rebalance that tree and it is by sure a solvable task.
I do not ask for breaking a tree and I am pretty sure this is not gonna happen because, as allready stated: "Wtf cares about healing when everything is centered arround buffs/debuffs"
Limit that capstone reduce/cap healing , who cares
.....or rework the hole classystem by toning down lifesteal, tonings down oneshots (giants ... simply lol), toning down mitigation/buffs, to give healing ablilities back some interest (I doubt this will happen)
It took spamming till developers finally did rework for warlock. If no one would dared to write it, developers wouldn't even cared about it. Warlocks would be even in worser position.
For templocks developer promised rework in mod 6, in this month we get mod 11 in live server. And not words about templock rework. Why?
All because, no one dared to pick templock and play with.
Not so long ago one of class CW or GWF power got glitched, it where fixed fastly, while SW"s bug fixing I waited for months.. Why? because due priorities. Higher population = higher priority.
Now here are couple dudes who not even hate templock, they also discouraging players pick temptation build SW's.
If I do not advocate templock who will?
If they hate templock fine, I don't force them to fell in love or lay in bed with SW. But I don't like these posts/comments to discouraging players pick temptation builds..
Now as for changes.. there where talk with denval about temptation rework. He wanted rework all class by splitting in dps and supporter paragon paths.
However that would lead to requirement build up extra trees. And his supporters paragon is more less DC's copy paste.
So more less it would lead to point either DC or SW would had to die. And it's not balancing.
Temptation should be balanced within feats, but also need to count buff/debuff elements within encounters.
If developers add random big boosting, it will not only dissbalance templock, but also damnation and furry too.
Imagine if furry get some DC's feats, It would lead in problematic situation. Also SW have damnation which is unique build, which would be able pick some tempt feats too.
SO it's not so easy as you guys think.
On top, I don;t want that temptation warlock beat DC in term of buff quality, It would break game balance.. What would be point to have DC if temptation would deal higher dmg output + having stronger buffs/debuffs and on top healing.. It would kill reason to keep DC in game and also put other classes in hard position.
@schietindebux
All we can hope to get is a small fix, this small fix should center arround temp tree and tier 4 an 5 feats.
I am realistic and do not think they ever will rework that hole tree/leader role.
All I ask for are buffs/debuffs to rebalance that tree and it is by sure a solvable task.
I do not ask for breaking a tree and I am pretty sure this is not gonna happen because, as allready stated: "Wtf cares about healing when everything is centered arround buffs/debuffs"
Limit that capstone reduce/cap healing , who cares
.....or rework the hole classystem by toning down lifesteal, tonings down oneshots (giants ... simply lol), toning down mitigation/buffs, to give healing ablilities back some interest (I doubt this will happen)
As i wrote in upper lines, I would not like to make templock Overpowered.
Now why do u think templock have aura of despair, not buffs like DC in mod 4?
All because plan where simple. Aura of despair, wraith shadow hellish condemnation and etc where ment to reduce incoming damage from source. So that when players receive reduce damage they would survive, and then via healing restore lost HP. And that way keep allies alive.
Similar concept I have seen in other mmorp games. It's simply other approaching way in protecting allies. While DC buff allies and affect them with DR boostings. Templock reducing source of damage.
I have seen such mechanic in other mmorpg games. When some classes where more debuffers which reducing not only enemies DR but outgoing damage too.
One of simple tweaks could make big changes. Now
For example now pick Aura of despair and boost up it from 5% to 10% with adding chance to increase extra 5%..
15% damage reduction. Which latter got adjusted due players DR... IT's big thing. Not mentioned that even if that impact takes like ~50% of players HP, due healing rates such health lost would be covered in seconds..
This is just example.
You mentioned that developers have feedbacks.. ghem. Yeah.
Indeed they do have. But it's not surprise who wrote these feedbacks.
In neverwitner is not new, when one class player write about other class feedback, even if he haven't played with it.
All they do is did measure performance on paper.
Or like some guys pick that class, play like ~3 hours. Get that class to lv ~50 and write feedback about it's performance for endgame content.
Templocks feebacks should be written by templocks, and not who plaid for ~3 hours. But who had played at least 1 month. Have been through many game content. epic dungeons, skirmish, DF, tia whatever.
Not just trying impress training dummy bit his dmg output..
p.s show must go one.
For me any flaming here = win win anyways. I don't get any downside..
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
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Following your theory, why on earth did that DC also get a power "Breaking the Spirit" debuffing a target for 50%, wich equals all feats and powers a warlock can provide in case he manages it to run them all together like: Hellish condemnation 5%, Aura of dispair 5% (20 feet, lol), Darkness 10% (melee), HoB 5% (runs out, only in melee), DT 25% ( debuff lasts 8 seconds...so it´s up about 30%), Wraith Shadow is not working.
Anyway, all that counts are Damage-buffs and DR-debuff in NWO and in case you would not be part of a big guild i am sure you would have big problems to get into any FBI or SVA with your templock, but I am sure you got enough good player in your guild to pull your lock through that dungeon, right?
This problem is not about one unteachable player it is about all player, who think about wich tree to pick, and Templock is not the best choice atm.
Now, I didn't say that only Tempt warlock had debuffs and such mechanic. I explained why it had.
Now think, if aura of despair is aura/aoe effect, which affect anyone who get in auras effect area.
DC;s must apply this effect on target,< now, It's comparison between aoe vs single target. Even just for fun, lets say DC debuff 10 enemies at same time with this power. Templock debuff anyone in his area.
YOur comparison is like Pick aoe vs strong single target and want that Aoe beat Single target.. What kind balance you think it is?
When warlock where introduced, also temptation feats, developers had no intention to KILL DC class. Game is not for THE ONE supporter only. Unless you think that...
Darkness feat effects apply if using BoVa, and also damage reduction goes for templock only. Other's players game non affected damage..
Seems you lacking information about templock, yet trying pretend as specialist/pro guy who know everything about this class..
Don't worry about getting in FBI and SVA. Thats should be your least concerns, even without allies I can get in any dungeon.
I have to disappoint you that my blood is not boiling. But I think for @tom, your and @schietindebux blood is not only boiling, but probably steaming out through head.
If you read my posts, you had to notice that I have DC too. So tell me, why I should try demote, dismiss DC and replace with templock? It's like if you would try kill one of own class. No sense to do that.. Only what I wrote, where that I told that you guys dismiss templocks carelessly only because you don't play with it.
Next' find post where I wrote that templock is uber. So far I only see that how you guys try imply that need pick only DC and u are 100% assured of victory.. which is biggest nonsense.
As for unproductive discussion, what do u expect? My posts like Yeah Kill templock , it;s HAMSTER. kill them all. pray fo all mighty DC. OR something?
I can assure that would not happen. When I pick my liked class, I play it, and I don't give HAMSTER, when "smart Ones" try convince give up and follow crowd..
It's was lot of time said, that damnation is HAMSTER. But it's not HAMSTER.
I don't ask you to love templock, u don't like it, fine I don't mind. But I don't like when one or two player try imply which class is worthless and players should give up on it.
Trying imply that you know what players need to pick and which class discard. None of you can tell what players should pick in party and what not. Everyone use whatever party combination they like.
Also I wonder will u also make video toward other classes, once u stop liking them.
Like example, U stop liking TR, then video appear, Players stop picking TR, it's HAMSTER, it's not worth.. Pick my class. Or you will not be good.
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
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Maybe you Bloody should walk into that dungeon your first time and try to discuss the result afterwards in the forum?
If your templock fullfills his leader role effectively, I would not say anything in this topic, otherwise you should just stop writing about this topic any more and stop trolling.
Discussing about a build without having any clue of the actual content is like theorizing about a class without playing it... think I read this before?
This is about Classbalance and about the fact that warlock is performing pretty bad in terms of his leaderrole atm.
WTF cares about if this rediculess aura is about 20 or 50 feet? It is 5% less damage vs >100% less damage, not to talk about 100% damage or cc-immunity, provided by another class.
So far I come with assumption that templocks healing area = aura of despair area. Thats why when I play with templock, I stay in middle of fight..
I could write how to use powers, but that would be waste of time. Unlike other guys I prefer real combat experience over paper experience.
Posting video is good idea. But bring couple hard matters. Firstly, you must find similar geared, same guild boons, same companions build toons. You don't want to compare 4k gs vs ~2.5k gs, and latter in forum writing this 4k gs class where better than that with lower GS guy.
Due that reason, during mod 10 sw balancing I asked fernnu test not only his SB but HB too. Because he would test it with same gear, same boons and etc.. I could test myself with my furry Hb at that time, but provided data would not be correct.
That what I was writting about guys who hate templock while haven't played with such build ever. Perhaps they should have at least ~20 days long gameplay with templock before talking. I have played with DC yeap, more than 2 months, yeap. I have templock, yeap. Do i played with it more than 2 months. yeap,
Do these Templock haters have temp build SW, Nop. Do they even have warlock class. perhaps only pink panther.
Do they have at least 20 days gameplay with templock, nop.
So now tell me, who is making theories, and who not.
Me, who played with DC, having templock and playing with it.
Or these templock haters, who making assumptions theories without having ever played with templock.
It's like if I now go to TR forum and start claiming that their class sucks, and played should give up on it, move to GWF.
Even I would not played TR neither having long gameplay with GWF.
Unlike you guys, I don't say don't play with this build, don't dare or etc.. My suggestion, is ignore forum posts, try by yourself. If you will not like class after playing with it, so be it. I don't force to stay with it. No one can force do it.
They will complain about it, so be it, and actually would be very good thing..
My only goal is stop these nonsense when some class hater tell others don't pick that class, only because either he hate, or don't know how play with it.
@tom claimed that any class can clear eCC dungeon, but so far no videos... Also claimed that no one would die if DC would be in party over templock. But he didn't counted other class players.. Perhaps HR lagged and stepped in trap and die. How do DC would make keep him alive?
Thats what problem is. Also It's not me who started this thread. If you check forum, I don't run campaing pick templock over DC. or etc.. I don't do it.. I let players choose do they want or not want play with templock. IF they quit templock. I don't try convince them return back.
Only here some guys hating templock.
If pink panther would not making that don't pick templock. I would not say anything. I know templocks weakness, even the ones which he didn't knew.. for example that buffs debuffs apply to allies and ennemies alike.
If they stop these DON"T PICK TEMPLOCK mania, I will don't post here against them. I only advocate templock again hatters..
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
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