[All Platforms] Any indication of a CW class balance in mod 11?

metalicum1

I've noticed that the last patch on PS4 included a known issue with the Combustive Action tooltip. No fix though.
Could this be because of of an upcoming major class re-balance? Are there any indications it might happen in a near future?

fizgigtiznalkie

They were going to fix the power to match the tooltip but users pointed out it was changed to include all powers in the patch notes on purpose and the tooltip was outdated, so they reverted it to no change. I don't see CW or TR getting changed anytime soon.

vordayn

It seems to me that the CW nowadays neither underperforms or overperforms (compared to other classes). It's sort of stuck in the middle in terms of buffs, utilities or dps. So it's probably low on their priority of fixes.

In the end-game, it doesn't really do much of what they are supposed to either, which is control; that is practically non-existent sadly.

A lot of PC veterans used to play CWs, and have analysed a lot of their powers to be somewhat effective still, which is why we still see them around in PC. In Xbox or PS4, they are much rarer because they really don't excel at anything anymore, IMHO.

urabask

vordayn said:

It seems to me that the CW nowadays neither underperforms or overperforms (compared to other classes). It's sort of stuck in the middle in terms of buffs, utilities or dps. So it's probably low on their priority of fixes.

In the end-game, it doesn't really do much of what they are supposed to either, which is control; that is practically non-existent sadly.

A lot of PC veterans used to play CWs, and have analysed a lot of their powers to be somewhat effective still, which is why we still see them around in PC. In Xbox or PS4, they are much rarer because they really don't excel at anything anymore, IMHO.

At BiS CWs can compete for DPS with GWFs. MoF renegade competes with DC for the best buffs in the game even. Most of why people think CW is underperforming is because they don't really understand them.

vordayn

urabask said:

vordayn said:

It seems to me that the CW nowadays neither underperforms or overperforms (compared to other classes). It's sort of stuck in the middle in terms of buffs, utilities or dps. So it's probably low on their priority of fixes.

In the end-game, it doesn't really do much of what they are supposed to either, which is control; that is practically non-existent sadly.

A lot of PC veterans used to play CWs, and have analysed a lot of their powers to be somewhat effective still, which is why we still see them around in PC. In Xbox or PS4, they are much rarer because they really don't excel at anything anymore, IMHO.

At BiS CWs can compete for DPS with GWFs. MoF renegade competes with DC for the best buffs in the game even. Most of why people think CW is underperforming is because they don't really understand them.

If not at the debuff cap for mobs, GWFs add personal debuffs that only they benefit from. Their weapons are stronger, and their at wills are stronger and fast, and they reach enemies faster. An equally geared and experienced GWF should beat a CW in paingiver anyday. CWs are slow (they have this funny pause at the end of teleport), their spells take longer to cast than a GWFs at-wills. The strongest encounter power of either class belongs to the GWF with indomitable battle strike compared to disintegrate, usually by a factor of 3-4. With a hastening light cleric in the party, this would benefit IBS > disintegrate. Granted CWs have distance powers, but CWs are usually more effective at close distance to maximise DPS anyway.

A MoF renegade can debuff, true, but that uses two class features to be maximally effective. An experienced cleric can almost reach the debuff cap by themselves, a MoF renegade can not do that. If the debuff cap is reached, a MoF does not add anything to the party, and they sacrifice a lot of DPS/power for their debuff capability. The buffing potential of a renegade is erratic with chaos magic, combat advantage granted by nightmare wizardry is only useful in certain fights (e.g. dragon turtle, tiamat) but useless when players surround the enemy. Uncertain allegiance doesn't really help end-game players with 100% crit anyway, so is quite situational.

Control arguably is better with the HR, TR even, and in PvP, stuns and knockbacks from GFs and GWFs. The type of control granted to CWs is easily avoided with T.Elven Battle. Coming from a class with 'Control' in their name, with most bosses immune anyway, it really is a misnomer.

I've specced into all three trees and the two paragon classes, back and forth, to find something that I'm happy with. You can't be a good debuffer without sacrificing dps, you can't be a good controller without sacrificing dps or debuffs, you can be a good damage dealer, however, they have dropped a long way; I remember when CWs were great at paingiver, and most other dps classes pointed out CWs should be controllers first and dps second. Well, CWs are indeed probably DPS second (or third), but lost control along the way.

You can have your opinion though, that is just how I perceive CWs at the moment. Because they are middling, and perform a little better in certain domains by sacrificing other aspects, they probably won't be in the line for fixes or class balancing any time soon.

urabask

vordayn said:

If not at the debuff cap for mobs, GWFs add personal debuffs that only they benefit from. Their weapons are stronger, and their at wills are stronger and fast, and they reach enemies faster. An equally geared and experienced GWF should beat a CW in paingiver anyday. CWs are slow (they have this funny pause at the end of teleport), their spells take longer to cast. The strongest encounter power of either class belongs to the GWF with indomitable battle strike compared to disintegrate, usually by a factor of 3-4. With a hastening light cleric in the party, this would benefit IBS > disintegrate. Granted CWs have distance powers, but CWs are usually more effective at close distance to maximise DPS anyway.

Again, in practice this doesn't happen. We've got two CWs in THC/TUC that can outDPS all of our BiS GWFs. I used to think the same way and then Lia gets beaten by Freedom or Joe regularly.

vordayn said:

A MoF renegade can debuff, true, but that uses two class features to be maximally effective. An experienced cleric can almost reach the debuff cap by themselves, a MoF renegade can not do that. If the debuff cap is reached, a MoF does not add anything to the party, and they sacrifice a lot of DPS/power for their debuff capability. The buffing potential of a renegade is erratic with chaos magic, combat advantage is only useful in certain fights (e.g. dragon turtle, tiamat) but useless when players surround the enemy. Uncertain allegiance doesn't really help end-game players with 100% crit anyway, so is quite situational.

DC debuffs are a lot less consistent than MoF. MoF can have it's debuffs up almost 100% of the time whereas DCs have to go through their rotation to hit the debuff cap.

vordayn

urabask said:

Again, in practice this doesn't happen. We've got two CWs in THC/TUC that can outDPS all of our BiS GWFs. I used to think the same way and then Lia gets beaten by Freedom or Joe regularly.

I'd like to see that - maybe I would have something to learn there. Most CWs I come across I can usually equal or come near their paingiver, usually by about 10-20%. But some classes other than CWs are stronger than me by 50% or more. When I analyse ACT of different runs (tia, edemo, fbi, sva, cn) what strikes me most is the amount of damage some other classes can do in a period of time. The highest I have seen would come from GWFs, GFs, SW, then CWs, HR, TRs. Certain people in various classes do really well, but then I wonder what other items (companions, mounts, insiginias) they might have which contributes to their power rather than a reflection of that class. Again my experience is anecdotal, but then, so is yours.

urabask said:

DC debuffs are a lot less consistent than MoF. MoF can have it's debuffs up almost 100% of the time whereas DCs have to go through their rotation to hit the debuff cap.

A DC buffer/debuffer will always be chosen before a MoF, and can be seen as almost essential in the current state of beating certain trials. A MoF is usually chosen by a well-geared party that want to have a shorter run, but are never essential.

urabask

vordayn said:

urabask said:

Again, in practice this doesn't happen. We've got two CWs in THC/TUC that can outDPS all of our BiS GWFs. I used to think the same way and then Lia gets beaten by Freedom or Joe regularly.

I'd like to see that - maybe I would have something to learn there. Most CWs I come across I can usually equal or come near their paingiver, usually by about 10-20%. But some classes other than CWs are stronger than me by 50% or more. When I analyse ACT of different runs (tia, edemo, fbi, sva, cn) what strikes me most is the amount of damage some other classes can do in a period of time. The highest I have seen would come from GWFs, GFs, SW, then CWs, HR, TRs. Certain people in various classes do really well, but then I wonder what other items (companions, mounts, insiginias) they might have which contributes to their power rather than a reflection of that class. Again my experience is anecdotal, but then, so is yours.

urabask said:

DC debuffs are a lot less consistent than MoF. MoF can have it's debuffs up almost 100% of the time whereas DCs have to go through their rotation to hit the debuff cap.

A DC buffer/debuffer will always be chosen before a MoF, and can be seen as almost essential in the current state of beating certain trials. A MoF is usually chosen by a well-geared party that want to have a shorter run, but are never essential.

Because it's a healer and AA lets you cheese through everything. Optimal parties should still take an MoF.

mamalion1234

vordayn said:

urabask said:

Again, in practice this doesn't happen. We've got two CWs in THC/TUC that can outDPS all of our BiS GWFs. I used to think the same way and then Lia gets beaten by Freedom or Joe regularly.

I'd like to see that - maybe I would have something to learn there. Most CWs I come across I can usually equal or come near their paingiver, usually by about 10-20%. But some classes other than CWs are stronger than me by 50% or more. When I analyse ACT of different runs (tia, edemo, fbi, sva, cn) what strikes me most is the amount of damage some other classes can do in a period of time. The highest I have seen would come from GWFs, GFs, SW, then CWs, HR, TRs. Certain people in various classes do really well, but then I wonder what other items (companions, mounts, insiginias) they might have which contributes to their power rather than a reflection of that class. Again my experience is anecdotal, but then, so is yours.

urabask said:

DC debuffs are a lot less consistent than MoF. MoF can have it's debuffs up almost 100% of the time whereas DCs have to go through their rotation to hit the debuff cap.

A DC buffer/debuffer will always be chosen before a MoF, and can be seen as almost essential in the current state of beating certain trials. A MoF is usually chosen by a well-geared party that want to have a shorter run, but are never essential.

both is not an option?

oria1

vordayn said:

It seems to me that the CW nowadays neither underperforms or overperforms (compared to other classes). It's sort of stuck in the middle in terms of buffs, utilities or dps. So it's probably low on their priority of fixes.

...
A MoF renegade can debuff, true, but that uses two class features to be maximally effective. An experienced cleric can almost reach the debuff cap by themselves, a MoF renegade can not do that.

...The buffing potential of a renegade is erratic with chaos magic, combat advantage granted by nightmare wizardry is only useful in certain fights (e.g. dragon turtle, tiamat) but useless when players surround the enemy. Uncertain allegiance doesn't really help end-game players with 100% crit anyway, so is quite situational.

So.. A MoF cw cant get to max cap... a cleric does.... so...



This is a 4 dps and only me on debuffs in ETOS no other debuff companions but mine, no plaguefires etc. Also gave to the party a good 75-90% dmg buff. No tank or cleric.

I suppose you can show me a cleric that can do this . On top of that all mobs where "sleeping" in the run (max dmg taken for the dungeon was 540k) so yes there is no control either.

In general is bad to talk in absolutes about what we think we know. Pls before stating an opinion ask a dedicated Mof debuffer and have better facts about what a cw can or cant do.

Also why do you have to compare a dc with a mof. Its best to have both and the runs go very fast and smooth. The synergy between a dc and mof is phenomenal.

Voodoo
Mof Debuffer

vordayn

oria1 said:

This is a 4 dps and only me on debuffs in ETOS no other debuff companions but mine, no plaguefires etc. Also gave to the party a good 75-90% dmg buff. No tank or cleric.

Are you saying you were the only player granting debuffs? How did you get 349.5% effectiveness?

oria1 said:

In general is bad to talk in absolutes about what we think we know. Pls before stating an opinion ask a dedicated Mof debuffer and have better facts about what a cw can or cant do.

What other debuffs can a non-oppressor MoF do besides Swathe, Combustive and RoE? (not counting enchants) Unless you play an oppressor MoF?

oria1

vordayn said:

oria1 said:

This is a 4 dps and only me on debuffs in ETOS no other debuff companions but mine, no plaguefires etc. Also gave to the party a good 75-90% dmg buff. No tank or cleric.

Are you saying you were the only player granting debuffs? How did you get 349.5% effectiveness?

oria1 said:

In general is bad to talk in absolutes about what we think we know. Pls before stating an opinion ask a dedicated Mof debuffer and have better facts about what a cw can or cant do.

What other debuffs can a non-oppressor MoF do besides Swathe, Combustive and RoE? (not counting enchants) Unless you play an oppressor MoF?

Yes, I was the only one as i said, it was 4 dps and me. 2 GWFs 2 CWs

How it's done has to do with build, rotations, gears, companions etc. which is not part of this discussion.

Soon (waiting to see if there are changes in mod11) I will write my thoughts about both debuff and control. (and yes you can have perma control too :P)

Voodoo
MoF Debuffer

mamalion1234

http://prnt.sc/e1bjfa here is another example with mof those are normal numbers voodoo describe above.