Valorous vs Oath vs Shielding Strike

trzebiat

I've never fully tested them so I wanted to ask someone who levelled Prot from start and knows more about the effects at wills give and which one is the best for end game content.

I used Shielding just to try new at will, but later switched to Valorous that has lower damage because it's faster and allows to apply Plague Fire stacks faster and 5% DR comes in handy getting closer to the cap, and artifact class feature for increased damage is better than Oath. I didn't get into a details. Is the shield from Shielding relevant and worth using this at will for it? I've also never understood the second part of the bonus from Oath.

sundance777

Fights with butter knives is what I call my OP. Basically I just swing at stuff to pass the time for my encounters to refill so I can refill my daily. I feel the pally is very encounter based and the at wills are inconsequential. My basic rotation for solo play on mobs is Templar's, circle of power, smite, Templar's and then divine judgement. There is not really much left standing after this....ymmv. I do have Valorous slotted and use it, but I honestly cant say what my other at-will is, I never use it.

armadeonx

The shield is useful in longer fights where you may find yourself having to space encounters & divine call, it is noticeable.

I use it because it has a nice arc, usually hitting 4 targets at a time and it does the most damage.

I find that on average now my dps is equivalent to a 3-3.2k gwf, I've reworked a few things and got my crit to 40% standing and 48 with procs, when finished I'll be around 52-56%. I also have an owlbear for non-crits.

waywardwizard

sundance777 said:

Fights with butter knives is what I call my OP. Basically I just swing at stuff to pass the time for my encounters to refill so I can refill my daily. I feel the pally is very encounter based and the at wills are inconsequential. My basic rotation for solo play on mobs is Templar's, circle of power, smite, Templar's and then divine judgement. There is not really much left standing after this....ymmv. I do have Valorous slotted and use it, but I honestly cant say what my other at-will is, I never use it.

Interesting. I feel the exact opposite. The damage of all Paladin encounters is seriously low, BL is nice thanks to AoC. My GF is currently half the item level of my Paladin and some of his encounters read ~50k in the description unbuffed while my Paladin's top is ~23k ( relentless).

On the other hand Ive been playing with Shielding strike and RS from the moment I got them till now and SS is my main dmg dealer vs single targets. RS applies AoC ticks on every strike and thats good damage vs a horde of critters. Current encounter setup is CoP, TW, BL for general pve play.

TW I can understand being low dmg since its actually our main utility( temp hp). But Smite, Relentless, Divine Touch. Those need some love I think.

trzebiat

armadeonx said:

The shield is useful in longer fights where you may find yourself having to space encounters & divine call, it is noticeable.

I use it because it has a nice arc, usually hitting 4 targets at a time and it does the most damage.

I find that on average now my dps is equivalent to a 3-3.2k gwf, I've reworked a few things and got my crit to 40% standing and 48 with procs, when finished I'll be around 52-56%. I also have an owlbear for non-crits.

I get that it has higher damage but it feels so slow compared to Valorous/Oath! So how much damage the shield absorbs when you're hit by Orcus for example? I understand this is where it is noticeable? Trash dies already pretty fast.

That's pretty good dps you have there. I'm assuming you're using dps weapon enchant instead of debuff. I'm over 50% crit chance in combat, over 80% with Sudden Precision.

armadeonx

I'm on xbox so I can't really give accurate numbers on it's damage absorption, only a 'I see the difference' but I'd hazard a guess at somewhere around 20-50k from a hit by Orcus. (judging by how much less I see the health bar go down lol).

I'm using a trans lightning for its aggro and recovery so I'm looking forward to it getting a scaling dps boost at trans it gives +65% weapon damage on single target but I'm running 3 archons (earth is well used as I rarely lose normal HP) a siegemaster and an owlbear.

My active only has 1 sudden ring which is Defence, handy for entering combat but I'm also looking forward to the new companion gear they're working on. I have a +4 precision but I've not tried it on him yet, maybe I should, it'll be interesting to see how things look 75-80%

trzebiat

Well, it seems I'd have to go back and give Shielding Strike another chance.

I'm also looking forward for scaling changes. I've got my Plague Fire to Transcendent recently and was thinking if Trans Fey could be better for Prot to build more Temp HP but I think I'll stay with PF because I'm already set for buff/debuff and Fey is only personal buff, not team buff like PF.

I also like Earth Archon in active slot and use it as well as Air and Yeti for damage boost (blue quality). No room for another because I use Con Artist as summoned and recently pulled Sylph from the chest and I love now that 50% control resist. I only switch to Chicken and Rust Monster for active bonuses if I really need the debuff. Having Brutality +5, Sudden Precision +5 and Hellig +4 I like that boost to power and crit but I know I miss a moment at start before companion procs the gift, not a problem with Fire Archon, right? That's why I'm still hunting for Sudden Defense +5 to replace Rising on myself for a little bit more protection at start of the fights.

BTW, how much recovery do you run with? I'm not sure if I should drop some of it or crit for more power to share.

armadeonx

I have 6.5k at rest which goes up to about 9k with bondings plus I use a +4 ring of rising focus so just over 10k mid-fight plus the 2% per hit from lightning. I'll probably squeeze out a little more but I'm pretty happy with my cooldown speed atm.

armadeonx

I just want to mention that I tried a couple of goes against Orcus using Oath instead of Shielding and they were noticeably more hairy, his strikes took off much bigger chunks.

Saying that, I like the strike rate of Oath as it procs double the amount of lightning strikes from my weapon enchantment. Also I timed the strike rotations of both powers and I believe the total damage (not including WE procs) is roughly the same over a given time period.

I would say that using Oath on mobs and switching to Shielding on tough bosses is an optimal mix.

Note: would any helpful pally on PC care to test the shield on Shielding Strike?
specifically, it would be very useful to know whether the shield generated does the following:

1. Shield has a set absorption amount (i.e. absorbs X amount of damage then breaks)
2. Has a fixed level of absorption (e.g. 20%) and lasts for the full 8 seconds & what the % absorbed is.
3. If the stacks expire independently of each other or the next refreshes the last (i.e. a second rotation within 6 secs will either see the first shield expire at 8 secs or refreshes it to a new 8 secs with 2 stacks and again on the 3rd, giving 3 stacks for 8 secs which is then maintained at 3 stacks as long as one rotation is done within the 8 sec timer).

This would be really useful for the Pally community to know but as I'm on XBox I don't have access to ACT.

bastaen

There is currently something wonky with the way the shield from Shielding Strike interacts with the Binding Oath and the shield from Absolution. I think the shield from BO and Absolution overwrites the shield from shielding strike. Its still there on my bar, but the damage reduction I should have when using Shielding Strike doesnt register when BO overshield is active. Lol, i noticed i take more damage after popping BO versus without. Absolution just does the flat %50 DR increase and doesnt add the shield from Shielding Strike. The shield from Divine Touch also suffers the same fate as the Shield from Shielding Strike, but I think from my limited testing that Divine Touch and Shielding Strike stack. Can anyone else test this? Im still testing all this, so I havent bugged it yet.

armadeonx

Hmm thanks for the info. I'm on XBox so testing is very difficult but I'll try and see what's possible...

waywardwizard

bastaen said:

There is currently something wonky with the way the shield from Shielding Strike interacts with the Binding Oath and the shield from Absolution. I think the shield from BO and Absolution overwrites the shield from shielding strike. Its still there on my bar, but the damage reduction I should have when using Shielding Strike doesnt register when BO overshield is active. Lol, i noticed i take more damage after popping BO versus without. Absolution just does the flat %50 DR increase and doesnt add the shield from Shielding Strike. The shield from Divine Touch also suffers the same fate as the Shield from Shielding Strike, but I think from my limited testing that Divine Touch and Shielding Strike stack. Can anyone else test this? Im still testing all this, so I havent bugged it yet.

Divine Touch and SS do stack. BO is a suicide power, try to work without it. Absolution leaves alot to be desired but can be useful for a character with sub-optimal gear. CoP and TW are my pally's bread and butter, 3rd encounter changes depending on my mood.

hirogarde

armadeonx said:

Note: would any helpful pally on PC care to test the shield on Shielding Strike?
specifically, it would be very useful to know whether the shield generated does the following:

1. Shield has a set absorption amount (i.e. absorbs X amount of damage then breaks)
2. Has a fixed level of absorption (e.g. 20%) and lasts for the full 8 seconds & what the % absorbed is.
3. If the stacks expire independently of each other or the next refreshes the last (i.e. a second rotation within 6 secs will either see the first shield expire at 8 secs or refreshes it to a new 8 secs with 2 stacks and again on the 3rd, giving 3 stacks for 8 secs which is then maintained at 3 stacks as long as one rotation is done within the 8 sec timer).

This would be really useful for the Pally community to know but as I'm on XBox I don't have access to ACT.

So I realize this is resurrecting an old post, but the information is useful for sound decisions.

I've tested all this through the combat log and here's what I've found:

Shielding Strike: The shield (damage absorption) is based off HP, Constitution, and resistance. HP/Con supply the base absorption which is then multiplied by resistance. At ~140k HP & 80% resistance it’ll absorb about 10k per stack per attack, it DOES NOT have an absorb limit and lasts until the timer expires. This power can absorb all damage delivered and does not appear to be artificially capped.
Divine Touch: The shield from Oath of Protection is similar to (and stacks with) shielding strike (HP based absorb that’s magnified by damage resistance), but at a lower base absorb rate (not Con based?).

How stuff Stacks:
Binding Oath, Absolution, Shielding Strike, Divine Touch
-With any combination, only one tier will absorb damage (in the following order):
1. Binding Oath
2. Absolution
3. Shielding Strike and Divine Touch.
-The Absolution “50% resistance” still applies whether or not it actually absorbs damage (when used with Bonding Oath).
-Absolution, Shielding Strike, and Divine Touch will absorb Binding Oath’s “bang” damage. This means a fresh, full power Absolution can easily take ALL the damage of the bang. The damage resistance multiplier that normally applies to Shielding Strike/Divine Touch does NOT apply here.
-Shielding Strike & Divine Touch CAN reduce damage taken to zero.

veywiil

Thanks for testing, Shielding strike still doesn't sound useful though. At least compared to Oath strike, and the speed of the swings being so vastly quicker on Oath strike. Shielding Strike does hit a little harder, but I'm not sure the 10k HP can be justified, especially considering we have Templar's Wrath for major damage absorption.

Can anyone think of any good reasons to use Shielding strike over Oath strike given Echoes of Light? You are also giving up a free hard taunt, which is nice to have especially early on for lower IL paladins. < 10k IL

armadeonx

Thanks for testing hiro so at 3 stacks 30k per strike is ok but against big hitters such as Orcus it's a drop in the ocean, especially when it's factored in first rather than last in the debuff stack (against 1 mil incoming dmg it's a debuff of around 3.3%, if it was last after 3xBane and 80% DR it would be worth ~22%).

So it's more effective against lower value hits, even from multiple sources but we never really have problems there - it's the big bosses that matter.

On the Oath v Shielding point, I've found they equal out with regards to DPS (shielding takes twice as long but does double damage) but yes, EoL triggers are more important. I would say that if a pally is having trouble with survivability then Valorous is a decent alternative to Oath as it has the same strike time with very similar DPS but adds 5% to your DR.

trzebiat

I've been using Shielding (with main hand feature) since I rerolled from Dev to Prot, it's nice to have some new animation and I've got used to it. I don't remember the last time I was using Oath to be honest.

volkihar

I would like Shielding Strike to have taunt, it's a protection paragon at will so i think that it makes sense to have aggro. Is annoying the lack of taunt in this class. To me SS is a great damage dealer.

mcgwarface

I stick w Oath Strike. With r12 bondings (fire archon) and solo Im at 120k power 10k crit and 10-12k AP in combat. I keep my HPs around 210 before TW and Def at 21k for about 75%resistance before using COP or Santuary.

Dont really need to use SStrike to tank. Just TW, BO and Smite (trans lightning). My damage is just fine w Oath Strike and Aura of Courage and Radiance aggros and kills Trash quick. Bosses arent a problem if I watch the red....running Aboleth Weapons now.

Bottom line I tried both and SS seemed too slow and I felt the dps was less. I am not a math major and dont have the same access to logs like PC. I just kept coming back to oath when trying others.

jaime4312

mcgwarface said:

I stick w Oath Strike. With r12 bondings (fire archon) and solo Im at 120k power 10k crit and 10-12k AP in combat. I keep my HPs around 210 before TW and Def at 21k for about 75%resistance before using COP or Santuary.



Dont really need to use SStrike to tank. Just TW, BO and Smite (trans lightning). My damage is just fine w Oath Strike and Aura of Courage and Radiance aggros and kills Trash quick. Bosses arent a problem if I watch the red....running Aboleth Weapons now.



Bottom line I tried both and SS seemed too slow and I felt the dps was less. I am not a math major and dont have the same access to logs like PC. I just kept coming back to oath when trying others.

As paladin you should have a summoned sellsword/con artist instead of that fire archon that has no party utility, you and your group are taking a 10% loss in effectiveness. It baffles me how at this point in the game there are people still having summoned fire archons. No offence intended man, just pointing out that companion is terribad as summoned because it doesn't increase group effectiveness at all (capped resistance ignored= 100% effectiveness, there aforementioned companions push that up). No party member, be it support or dps should have fire archon as summoned companion. That skill also stacks with that of other companions of that type so if all teammates have them it can be up to 150% group effectivenes, if one of them, say the dc has a dancing shield instead of one of them, then it is 160% effectiveness.

rubytrue

Gotta agree with Jaime on the companion. There is no reason to run anything less. Con Artist or Sell Sword are simply awesome. You can have a fire (or any other ) archon as active, but they are a waste as summoned. That 10%debuff (and it stacks) is just too good to pass up.

trzebiat

I agree with above about summoned companion. Con Artist/Sellsword or Harper Bard (Dancing Shield would be OK on Dev if there's no other person in party using it, most likely GF).

armadeonx

I go with the Harper Bard.

trzebiat

armadeonx said:

I go with the Harper Bard.

You have one? How much HP you get from him? I've been thinking if it'd be worth to change my Con Artist. But I'd lose 2 offense slots (I have 2 Greater Dod and 1 Greafer Krig) for personalized neck and belt (though I could use Darks for Life Steal there). I'm also curious how fast he procs bondings, e.g. starting Orcus with Bane you have to wait for Con to get there and land a hit.

hirogarde

armadeonx said:

Thanks for testing hiro so at 3 stacks 30k per strike is ok but against big hitters such as Orcus it's a drop in the ocean, especially when it's factored in first rather than last in the debuff stack (against 1 mil incoming dmg it's a debuff of around 3.3%, if it was last after 3xBane and 80% DR it would be worth ~22%).

So it's more effective against lower value hits, even from multiple sources but we never really have problems there - it's the big bosses that matter.

On the Oath v Shielding point, I've found they equal out with regards to DPS (shielding takes twice as long but does double damage) but yes, EoL triggers are more important. I would say that if a pally is having trouble with survivability then Valorous is a decent alternative to Oath as it has the same strike time with very similar DPS but adds 5% to your DR.

Shielding Strike isn't about Orcus, he's got his own encounter issues to deal with. Shielding strike is for all those other bosses that call in adds. With the ability to take zero damage from them, you can focus on the boss (building more agro) while the party switches to AoE to kill the trash. The artifact power for SS also works wonders for massive AoE grouping to keep shields up during Radiant Strike AoE spamming.

On the "OS is faster than SS" thing, I finally tested it: Oath strike is actually slower, but not by much. 1min swing test, OS hit 108 times, SS hit 117 times.

So, if you're looking for faster swings (or are working AoE groups) use SS. If you need that agro boost, use OS. DPS wise, let's face it... our DPS isn't from weapon damage, it's from AoC. So more swings = more damage.

trzebiat

Thanks for testing OS vs SS. I think OS can seem faster because there are no delays between hits, while SS hits 1st and 2nd time fast, then there's a break before 3rd hit, but after that it goes faster to 1st hit.

BTW, the second part of OS tooltip refers only to PvP, right? How does it actually works?

Also one thing I love in SS is swinging at wraiths in Valindra Tower, even though it doesn't deal damage, you get the shield and take no damage.

armadeonx

trzebiat#2067 said:

armadeonx said:

I go with the Harper Bard.

You have one? How much HP you get from him? I've been thinking if it'd be worth to change my Con Artist. But I'd lose 2 offense slots (I have 2 Greater Dod and 1 Greafer Krig) for personalized neck and belt (though I could use Darks for Life Steal there). I'm also curious how fast he procs bondings, e.g. starting Orcus with Bane you have to wait for Con to get there and land a hit.

I'm at 245k with him summoned and 233k without so 12k - which is pretty decent and matches the 10% quoted when you factor in the Energon I'm also using). He also has an 8% debuff that's not affected by the 200% cap and gives a party wide boost to power and crit (though I don't think it's a big one). If you drop below 50% health the power and crit switches to a defence & deflect boost.

armadeonx

hirogarde said:

armadeonx said:

Thanks for testing hiro so at 3 stacks 30k per strike is ok but against big hitters such as Orcus it's a drop in the ocean, especially when it's factored in first rather than last in the debuff stack (against 1 mil incoming dmg it's a debuff of around 3.3%, if it was last after 3xBane and 80% DR it would be worth ~22%).

So it's more effective against lower value hits, even from multiple sources but we never really have problems there - it's the big bosses that matter.

On the Oath v Shielding point, I've found they equal out with regards to DPS (shielding takes twice as long but does double damage) but yes, EoL triggers are more important. I would say that if a pally is having trouble with survivability then Valorous is a decent alternative to Oath as it has the same strike time with very similar DPS but adds 5% to your DR.

Shielding Strike isn't about Orcus, he's got his own encounter issues to deal with. Shielding strike is for all those other bosses that call in adds. With the ability to take zero damage from them, you can focus on the boss (building more agro) while the party switches to AoE to kill the trash. The artifact power for SS also works wonders for massive AoE grouping to keep shields up during Radiant Strike AoE spamming.

On the "OS is faster than SS" thing, I finally tested it: Oath strike is actually slower, but not by much. 1min swing test, OS hit 108 times, SS hit 117 times.

So, if you're looking for faster swings (or are working AoE groups) use SS. If you need that agro boost, use OS. DPS wise, let's face it... our DPS isn't from weapon damage, it's from AoC. So more swings = more damage.

Eh, what? SS swings at half the rate of OS and VS... that's why OS & VS double your chance of triggering EoL within a given time frame. On the other point, I don't really take damage from adds - they really don't bother me.

I'll go and do my own test to confirm but I'm pretty sure about the strike rate. I've only properly tested VS v SS previously but just from observation OS appeared the same as VS and matches the effective damage output over a given time frame.

Edit - I was wrong - see below lol

armadeonx

@veywiil#8685 as you're on PC and can use arc, are you also able to test the strike rate and damage over 1 min period please?

Edit: actually - something I hadn't taken into consideration before - on SS there's a shield bash that counts as a strike as a part of the combo. I timed it as best as I could (using a watch - lol) and it appears the total strike count for both is appx 110 hits per minute and each combo takes ~1.5 seconds for both SS and OS. VS is actually slower at 90 hits per minute.

The shield bash is so close to the initial swing that it's easy to miss. The pause between the 2nd and 3rd strikes is what makes the combo appear to take longer - but the gap between the 1st & 2nd strikes compensates for the difference.

My numbers are slightly off from yours @hirogarde so hopefully Veywiil can confirm one way or the other.

It could actually show that the loss of threat from Oath is compensated by the doubling of damage output from at-wills and with no loss of EoL gain.

rjc9000

sundance777 said:

Fights with a nerf bat is what I call my OP. it.

Fixed that for you.

One reason I hate Valorious Strike is that it moves you forward, and that gets on my nerves when it causes me to be in a place I didn't want to be in.

I haven't tested Oath Strike, but part of me is wary about the Tankadin tooltip which says that teammates deal less damage to enemies who have not been aggro'd by Oath Strike. If it works as the tooltip describes, that will hurt on mob fights, such as in the FBI hill climb or if you've aggro'd the entire mob set of eSP.

armadeonx

rjc9000 said:

sundance777 said:

Fights with a nerf bat is what I call my OP. it.

Fixed that for you.

One reason I hate Valorious Strike is that it moves you forward, and that gets on my nerves when it causes me to be in a place I didn't want to be in.

I haven't tested Oath Strike, but part of me is wary about the Tankadin tooltip which says that teammates deal less damage to enemies who have not been aggro'd by Oath Strike. If it works as the tooltip describes, that will hurt on mob fights, such as in the FBI hill climb or if you've aggro'd the entire mob set of eSP.

This is the tooltip: Oath of Protection: Forces the target to attack you for 3 seconds. Players deal 75% less damage to other targets for 3 seconds.

I think this means what it does in pvp.

mcgwarface

jaime4312, I have a variety of companions for what I want to do. For personal dps I go w fire archon, for group play melts I agree con artist is the standard. Thought this was more of a personal dps SS vs OS thread.

Has anyone done a solo dps comparison summoned con artist debuff attack vs fire archon? Would def like to see those numbers.

Remember, everyone doesnt live in the team world. I balance between PVE, PVP, solo and team events. Thats why Im excited for loadouts. However, The no companion loadouts make me