For example, Lightning could be a very powerful choice for a CW that casts a lot of AOE spells that hit multiple times. This favors what I call "Lawn Mower" builds that are designed to boost damage against trash mobs, but may be at a disadvantage in single target (namely boss) fights. So there's a big trade-off there. Some, like myself, would argue that clearing trash is easy, and the challenge comes on bosses...essentially all Lightning really does is run up on the scoreboard on trash.
This true but consider that the damage lightning provides now against trash mobs is superior in a single target build CW than a vorpal/dread in a multi target build CW, so it's no surprise (specially now with loadouts if that includes enchantments swap) people just changing enchants at will....
Fix Terror buff. The power debuff is not working. Fix so elven battle dont remove the chill stacks.
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Flaming:
There are 4 hits on this enchant. The initial hit for 17% weapon damage, the primary DoT for 11% weapon damage, a hidden DoT for 1.1% weapon damage and the AoE hit for 6% weapon damage. They all scale as expected. It is worth noting that the second DoT does not benefit from the 1.6 multiplier, while the primary DoT does.
It is ridiculously difficult to proc the AoE on a specific skill, so I only listed the ones I was able to proc it off of reliably and thus test.
Bug: Oppressive Force+Flaming.
Oppressive Force is able to proc the Flaming AoE hit on a single target multiple times. This did not happen with Imprisonment, despite Imprisonment hitting much more, I am not sure how many skills this is limited to.
Feedback: Flaming AoE.
The AoE procs once every 20 seconds, for 6% weapon damage. This is overall a very underwhelming feature. My suggestion is either lower the CD to 2 or 3 seconds, or raise the damage significantly.
treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
edited January 2017
Balance is a tough matter, i would like to keep feytouched the way it is sure, 27% damage reduction + 18% damage adition + extra weapon damage, specially for me that pug 90% of the times, but that is not anything even close to balance, if i and my teamates are hit harder and die, well too bad, lets try again, but i will rest assure that i am debuffing the enemy and i am contributing to my party and im not using and overpowered enchant, if fey was reduced to 10% less damage on enemy + 10% damag for me + the we damage i would say imediatly YEAH, because those amounts seem correct so dont put personal interest in front of game balance.
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
edited January 2017
Feytouched IS too strong. It matches the DPS WEs, and surpasses them by having defensive buffs.
Does feytouched really need that weapon damage on it?
Lightning is shaky. The CW can make the most use out of it, but, are CWs really the DPS gods on the charts these days?
If they had time to tone down CW weapon damage it wouldn't be such a concern.
There has to be a happy medium between OMG, gotta get it and Meh, I'll pass. The nerf numbers sound like they are in the meh range.
Nerf lightning, and it becomes about useless for anything but CWs and SWs. So what would you suggest?
Rework skills there are only around 5 that need to be really looked at.
I don't trust that approach one bit. Chances of them utterly @#$%ing the CW up are high by monkeying around with the encounters. Harrowstorm for the SW wasn't so bad back then before LM was nerfed. It's a pretty garbage encounter now with no multiproc function, it can't trigger anything after the first tick now. I can't imagine how wrong messing with CoI or IT would go. If you gut the multiproc function of either and SS will be butchered.
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
There has to be a happy medium between OMG, gotta get it and Meh, I'll pass. The nerf numbers sound like they are in the meh range.
Nerf lightning, and it becomes about useless for anything but CWs and SWs. So what would you suggest?
Rework skills there are only around 5 that need to be really looked at.
I don't trust that approach one bit. Chances of them utterly @#$%ing the CW up are high by monkeying around with the encounters. Harrowstorm for the SW wasn't so bad back then before LM was nerfed. It's a pretty garbage encounter now with no multiproc function, it can't trigger anything after the first tick now. I can't imagine how wrong messing with CoI or IT would go. If you gut the multiproc function of either and SS will be butchered.
Not really you have SW with DT for example, in a very crowded situation Lightning weapon will consist of 80% of DT damage (just DT, not all my damage), solution would be something like every 0,5 seconds cicle set 3 targets to activate lightning spread, everytime those targets get hit by that dread theft they will spread it and those alone.
The 2 cases that make lightning a bit too powerfull are : DT and steal time. Secondary cases: BoVA, conduit of ice, icy terrain (this one is kind of bugged, it may very well freeze the targets and keep hitting or not hit at all from the begining), less relevant, but still...sun burst and electric shot (i doubt any HR archer will dare to use a lightnight honestly unless the tank can aggro mobs on time, mega tank).
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
edited January 2017
Don't nerf lightning just fix the multiproc it does for cws on chill stacks.
♡....♡
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
Unfortunately, we don't currently have time allotted to "fix all the bugs with weapon and armor enchants". But I don't want to just give up. So here is my plan:
Fix any scaling-specific issues (like stuff that is supposed to be scaling but just isn't, eg, Bilethorn second hit)
Balance any numbers that are out of control because of scaling. Currently on my list, based on everyone's feedback, is:
Lower Feytouched dramatically (I'm thinking around 60-70%).
Lower Lightning significantly (currently I'm thinking around 30-40%).
This true but consider that the damage lightning provides now against trash mobs is superior in a single target build CW than a vorpal/dread in a multi target build CW, so it's no surprise (specially now with loadouts if that includes enchantments swap) people just changing enchants at will....
So what? If the intent is to give people the option to swap to match the circumstances, does it matter?
And even without load outs, it takes about 5 seconds to swap enchants...if people are serious about it, it's nothing they can't already do.
But I think there's a lot of value in having enchants that really excel under certain circumstances.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
Let me give you a little background on where we're at with these enchants so you know what to expect. This whole set of fixes started out a while back with us realizing we wanted to improve weapon and armor enchants, but realizing we didn't have the resources to tackle them all at once. So we decided to fix them 2 at a time (1 armor, 1 weapon). The idea was to keep the fixes pretty simple, but to give them buffs if they needed them. I was up for Flaming and Barkskin. Since Flaming is pretty much pure damage, I felt I had to fix the damage on it, which led to all those thoughts about scaling. So (as described in my original post) I decided to "turn on" the scaling.
I just wonder why is Flaming (Where is the Pure dmg??) still a bad enchant ?????????
Flaming need love much more love. Lightning have brutal buffs and brutal dmg all other enchant give debuffs buffs but not Flaming.....
Feedback: I haven't run the numbers yet to know exactly where the cut off is, but my limited testing seems to show crit sev enchants outpace the power scaling of non-feytouched enchants at a very low crit level.
Suggestion: Well trying to balance the enchants output vs. two totally different stats (crit/power) is a hard thing to do at best, I'd suggest an increase in the power scaling coefficient to the weapon damage enchants. Clearly since crit sev enchants scale with both crit AND power increases, they'll always be better. So I think the best option is to choose two "average" levels of each stat that you want the enchants to perform equally at, set the scaling so they line up there, and see if the utility effects of various enchants are worth while over damage for people running around with higher crit than what the crossover is set at.
If I was doing it I'd have them perform equally at around 60% crit, 90k power (assuming we don't have a delicious AA nerf coming! ). Any serious min/maxer will have stats far above that, making the crit sev enchants clearly the dps kings, but they are low enough that a casual player could easily fall below that line and have the non-crit sev enchants actually be better for them, in addition to giving utility.
This true but consider that the damage lightning provides now against trash mobs is superior in a single target build CW than a vorpal/dread in a multi target build CW, so it's no surprise (specially now with loadouts if that includes enchantments swap) people just changing enchants at will....
So what? If the intent is to give people the option to swap to match the circumstances, does it matter?
And even without load outs, it takes about 5 seconds to swap enchants...if people are serious about it, it's nothing they can't already do.
But I think there's a lot of value in having enchants that really excel under certain circumstances.
And where is a enchantment for multi target for my HR that barelly procs enchants? If it is to be done that way ( that i disagree, wealty people will take a clear advante over others) then all classes should be given the tools.
And i have a request for people saying feytouched is not too powerfull, go to preview and try it agains a really "bad" enemy, then pick a vorpal and do the same.... the downside of feytouched is the ocasional buff lack....since the main problem is related to high crit chance and severity i would do something like your encounters syphon away 10% of enemy damage and 20% critical severity, you convert 5% of that damage into more damage and 10% critical severity for you (writen as the tooltip, but you know the meaning)... aditionally to this allow stacks on a target up to 3 times at 50% less effectivness each stack, that should avoid 99% of the situations of someone not getting the buff(i mean....it's 27% now and nobody in pve takes it).This should also reduce SE damage significantly so everyone exept TR's happy but in pve mobs crit change goes around 15% so no big deal.
About holy avenger please dev make something about that heal, 1400 at lvl 70 every second is nothing in pve(tried with burning set base weapon damage).
Currently Bilethorn enchantment reduces DPS of a cw going a none Icy Veins route, by having its slowing component remove chill stacks. This means that in single target scenario you are better off having no enchants over a Bilethorn.
CW and SW need damage buffs anyway. So, let them have Lightning multi-procs. That is how I see it.
I don't know anything about those classes, but you're telling us here that because they (would) lack of damages, they (would) need to abuse Lightning/other in order to do so, which means there (would) be a huge gap between the one who doesn't want/have a Lightning/other enchantment and the one who does ?
It's a pretty bad way of balancing
But whatever as long as CW can abuse Lightning with multi-proc the WE cannot be balanced around everyone. In that case CW's problem provoked the nerf. It was not at all out of control for the other classes. It looked fine.
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
Let me give you a little background on where we're at with these enchants so you know what to expect. This whole set of fixes started out a while back with us realizing we wanted to improve weapon and armor enchants, but realizing we didn't have the resources to tackle them all at once. So we decided to fix them 2 at a time (1 armor, 1 weapon). The idea was to keep the fixes pretty simple, but to give them buffs if they needed them. I was up for Flaming and Barkskin. Since Flaming is pretty much pure damage, I felt I had to fix the damage on it, which led to all those thoughts about scaling. So (as described in my original post) I decided to "turn on" the scaling.
I just wonder why is Flaming (Where is the Pure dmg??) still a bad enchant ?????????
Flaming need love much more love. Lightning have brutal buffs and brutal dmg all other enchant give debuffs buffs but not Flaming.....
Flaming should be all bout that DoT. Everything else is direct hits, so why have everything the same.
The DoT needs like a 500% buff to even be of use.
It should be in the CW's creeping frost and DC's fire of the gods range. A DoT cannot compete with direct hits otherwise.
I also think, that since you're trying to make all enchantments equal, you should give them all a cost of protector's/elemental seals, because until now negation, vorpal and a few others have been sort of separated from all others.
I think Feytouched should be slightly nerfed to be either on par with Vorpal/Dread or slightly beneath so it'll be a viable option but not instantly BIS, as you've said, the point was to buff other enchants so we'll have more options, with the possibility of changing the current meta entirely, however not with that specific intent. I always liked Lightning on CW's, if the multiproc issue is sorted I think it's fine to leave it the way it is, the class after all excels in AOE damage and relies on SS procs anyways, if anything it'll just enhance the role, possibly at the cost of single target damage though.
Comments
Fix so elven battle dont remove the chill stacks.
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
There are 4 hits on this enchant. The initial hit for 17% weapon damage, the primary DoT for 11% weapon damage, a hidden DoT for 1.1% weapon damage and the AoE hit for 6% weapon damage. They all scale as expected. It is worth noting that the second DoT does not benefit from the 1.6 multiplier, while the primary DoT does.
It is ridiculously difficult to proc the AoE on a specific skill, so I only listed the ones I was able to proc it off of reliably and thus test.
Bug: Oppressive Force+Flaming.
Oppressive Force is able to proc the Flaming AoE hit on a single target multiple times. This did not happen with Imprisonment, despite Imprisonment hitting much more, I am not sure how many skills this is limited to.
Feedback: Flaming AoE.
The AoE procs once every 20 seconds, for 6% weapon damage. This is overall a very underwhelming feature. My suggestion is either lower the CD to 2 or 3 seconds, or raise the damage significantly.
Does feytouched really need that weapon damage on it?
Lightning is shaky. The CW can make the most use out of it, but, are CWs really the DPS gods on the charts these days?
If they had time to tone down CW weapon damage it wouldn't be such a concern.
Nerf lightning, and it becomes about useless for anything but CWs and SWs. So what would you suggest?
The 2 cases that make lightning a bit too powerfull are : DT and steal time.
Secondary cases: BoVA, conduit of ice, icy terrain (this one is kind of bugged, it may very well freeze the targets and keep hitting or not hit at all from the begining), less relevant, but still...sun burst and electric shot (i doubt any HR archer will dare to use a lightnight honestly unless the tank can aggro mobs on time, mega tank).
♡....♡
And even without load outs, it takes about 5 seconds to swap enchants...if people are serious about it, it's nothing they can't already do.
But I think there's a lot of value in having enchants that really excel under certain circumstances.
Flaming need love much more love. Lightning have brutal buffs and brutal dmg all other enchant give debuffs buffs but not Flaming.....
I haven't run the numbers yet to know exactly where the cut off is, but my limited testing seems to show crit sev enchants outpace the power scaling of non-feytouched enchants at a very low crit level.
Suggestion:
Well trying to balance the enchants output vs. two totally different stats (crit/power) is a hard thing to do at best, I'd suggest an increase in the power scaling coefficient to the weapon damage enchants. Clearly since crit sev enchants scale with both crit AND power increases, they'll always be better. So I think the best option is to choose two "average" levels of each stat that you want the enchants to perform equally at, set the scaling so they line up there, and see if the utility effects of various enchants are worth while over damage for people running around with higher crit than what the crossover is set at.
If I was doing it I'd have them perform equally at around 60% crit, 90k power (assuming we don't have a delicious AA nerf coming!
And i have a request for people saying feytouched is not too powerfull, go to preview and try it agains a really "bad" enemy, then pick a vorpal and do the same.... the downside of feytouched is the ocasional buff lack....since the main problem is related to high crit chance and severity i would do something like your encounters syphon away 10% of enemy damage and 20% critical severity, you convert 5% of that damage into more damage and 10% critical severity for you (writen as the tooltip, but you know the meaning)... aditionally to this allow stacks on a target up to 3 times at 50% less effectivness each stack, that should avoid 99% of the situations of someone not getting the buff(i mean....it's 27% now and nobody in pve takes it).This should also reduce SE damage significantly so everyone exept TR's happy but in pve mobs crit change goes around 15% so no big deal.
About holy avenger please dev make something about that heal, 1400 at lvl 70 every second is nothing in pve(tried with burning set base weapon damage).
It's a pretty bad way of balancing
But whatever as long as CW can abuse Lightning with multi-proc the WE cannot be balanced around everyone. In that case CW's problem provoked the nerf. It was not at all out of control for the other classes. It looked fine.
The DoT needs like a 500% buff to even be of use.
It should be in the CW's creeping frost and DC's fire of the gods range. A DoT cannot compete with direct hits otherwise.
I also think, that since you're trying to make all enchantments equal, you should give them all a cost of protector's/elemental seals, because until now negation, vorpal and a few others have been sort of separated from all others.
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