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Please force rainbows in PVP.
ltgamesttv
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,438 Arc User
PVP has always been plagued by the stacking of the most OP damage classes or the tankiest classes. All PVP should be forced into taking one of each class forever more. Stacking classes in a party throws off the balance of any matches it occurs in. Sometimes in favor of the stacked team, sometimes in favor of the non stacked team. Let's finally balance this once and for all please.
I would offer the obvious evidence that 2 TRs = 2 SB and CB, 2 HRs = 2 PG and 2 Piercing blade/Blade Hurricane, 2 GFs = 2 BC and 2 Griffons wrath/anvil, 2 CWs = 2 repels and 2 entangle, 2 DC = 2 AA and 2 AS, 2 Pally = 2 Bubble and 2 BL/Healing Sanctuary, 2 SW = 2 WB and 2 Shadowslip for rotations, 2 GWF = 2 Sprint for rotations and 2 Daggers/Mark.
While the discussion of which classes need adjusting is important, it's much less noticeable when there are forced rainbows as you can't stack OP or strong mechanics in your teams' favor. This has been asked for by PVPers since mod 0. This was partially addressed a couple mods back when you could no longer stack 5 of a class but let's go ahead and completely fix this altogether.
The only counter argument I've heard that has any merit is the "I prefer to play with friends who play the same class". To which I would simply say, "do so in a dungeon then", although if you and your friend both play DC or GF or OP then you'll likely have some difficulty even doing that. These games are meant to have diverse groups so that you manage your abilities to benefit and or augment your group. I would suggest it's more important that there is overarching balance rather than the few people who chose to play the same classes as their friends get to stack their parties.
If you agree please give me a plus, if not please let me know why.
Thanks for your time.
*Addendum:
For reference I would like to define a few terms here for those unfamiliar with their use.
1) Rainbow comp = no two of any class, can be any grouping of the 8 classes.
2) Matched Rainbow comp = no two of any class with the same classes being on both teams (i.e. classic comp GWF, GF, CW, TR, DC vs GWF, GF, CW, TR, DC). Can be any mixture but both teams must have the same classes.
3) Premade PVP = two groups that have agreed to fight with comps agreed upon.
4) Group or guild PVP (Which is called Premade in the vernacular but not classically by PVP guilds) often winds up against pugs may luck into another group or guild PVP group and have a decent fight.
*Addendum 2:
I think giving this type of Q a week trial could either prove it's efficacy or reveal it's flaws. I would suggest a week or 2 trial like Solo Q.
In the worst case scenario people prefer not to Q rainbow and nothing changes. In the best case scenario players discover that this small change "fixes" some of the issues associated with balancing teams, comps, and matches by limiting troll comps and spreading players of varying ELO but high IL (due to poor Q mechanics) to both teams.
If you'd be willing to try it for a week, now's the time to say so.
I would offer the obvious evidence that 2 TRs = 2 SB and CB, 2 HRs = 2 PG and 2 Piercing blade/Blade Hurricane, 2 GFs = 2 BC and 2 Griffons wrath/anvil, 2 CWs = 2 repels and 2 entangle, 2 DC = 2 AA and 2 AS, 2 Pally = 2 Bubble and 2 BL/Healing Sanctuary, 2 SW = 2 WB and 2 Shadowslip for rotations, 2 GWF = 2 Sprint for rotations and 2 Daggers/Mark.
While the discussion of which classes need adjusting is important, it's much less noticeable when there are forced rainbows as you can't stack OP or strong mechanics in your teams' favor. This has been asked for by PVPers since mod 0. This was partially addressed a couple mods back when you could no longer stack 5 of a class but let's go ahead and completely fix this altogether.
The only counter argument I've heard that has any merit is the "I prefer to play with friends who play the same class". To which I would simply say, "do so in a dungeon then", although if you and your friend both play DC or GF or OP then you'll likely have some difficulty even doing that. These games are meant to have diverse groups so that you manage your abilities to benefit and or augment your group. I would suggest it's more important that there is overarching balance rather than the few people who chose to play the same classes as their friends get to stack their parties.
If you agree please give me a plus, if not please let me know why.
Thanks for your time.
*Addendum:
For reference I would like to define a few terms here for those unfamiliar with their use.
1) Rainbow comp = no two of any class, can be any grouping of the 8 classes.
2) Matched Rainbow comp = no two of any class with the same classes being on both teams (i.e. classic comp GWF, GF, CW, TR, DC vs GWF, GF, CW, TR, DC). Can be any mixture but both teams must have the same classes.
3) Premade PVP = two groups that have agreed to fight with comps agreed upon.
4) Group or guild PVP (Which is called Premade in the vernacular but not classically by PVP guilds) often winds up against pugs may luck into another group or guild PVP group and have a decent fight.
*Addendum 2:
I think giving this type of Q a week trial could either prove it's efficacy or reveal it's flaws. I would suggest a week or 2 trial like Solo Q.
In the worst case scenario people prefer not to Q rainbow and nothing changes. In the best case scenario players discover that this small change "fixes" some of the issues associated with balancing teams, comps, and matches by limiting troll comps and spreading players of varying ELO but high IL (due to poor Q mechanics) to both teams.
If you'd be willing to try it for a week, now's the time to say so.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
Post edited by ltgamesttv#0999 on
8
Comments
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
But!
There are so many TRs and HRs in PvP now that they would have to wait even longer for queue times, which may not be something Cryptic is willing to do.
If Cryptic were able to make each class balanced in terms of PvP effectiveness, meaning an equal number of classes queueing simultaneously (not the exact equal amount, but a reasonable ratio), then we could have the discussion about enforcing rainbow comps.
My suggestion for now is 1 tank, 1 healer, 3 DPS per group. Premades consisting of 2 DCs, 2 GFs, 2 ODPs, or 2 OPPs would not be able to queue.
Firstly, just because a bunch of players rolled a FOTM class I don't think the devs should cowtow to them getting into matches as frequently at the expense of other classes.
Secondarily, 2 TRs or 2HRs is one of the BIGGEST problems because of so much piercing damage from both classes as well as smokebomb and not to mention 12-14 second long CBs from TRs that prevent rotation.
Assuming you're just trying to facilitate faster matches then I sympathize but I don't agree that the trade off is worth it.
Thanks for your reply.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
2. Group queue should require a rainbow composition
Sopi SW Youtube channel pvp brickabrack
Every other MMOs that has control effects in PvP has DR in place to prevent just this sort of thing except neverwinter. Of course they don't really care much for PvP otherwise it would have been designed this way from the very beginning.
The point I'm trying to make is that if you can't stack classes that have piercing damage or extreme DPS or CC then the matches become more balanced by default. Thus simplifying the issue while class balancing/adjusting can be done appropriately.
Thanks for your input.
Solo Q or Group Q, both should adhere to a forced rainbow mechanic imho.
Thanks for your reply borrooo :P
As I said even with CC diminishing returns I would most likely still be in favor of a forced rainbow comp. However even if diminishing CC returns did fix the problem, this is a semi fix that is super easy to implement instead of the coding it would take for changing how CC works at base.
Thanks for your response.
Sopi SW Youtube channel pvp brickabrack
Sopi SW Youtube channel pvp brickabrack
Unfortunately, Cryptic just changed the number of classes you can take in a party (which I suspect was done more for PVE than PVP). They don't want to do another focus-test just so they can change a feature instead of implementing a new one. I really don't think they care enough so that 2-4 premades can have more balanced fights. I think the development team won't sign off on this, Cryptic would rather have the checkbox of saying you can party with another player of the same class in all modes. How often do premades still happen anyways?
Lastly, I don't think you addressed @zeusom 's question well enough. I disagree with your statement that "you and your same-class friend can just do PVE stuff" & "its more important to balance classes in PVP" (more than its current state). They already made a compromise by allowing only 2 of a class. How many premades run anyway nowadays? Couldn't Synergy and Forsaken Rebels just coordinate a rainbow premade against each other? Who cares if Midnight express runs a troll comp when their paladins die. Wouldn't that effectively solve this problem without having to ask Cryptic to go implement a feature?
TLDR: Awesome idea, but I don't see much incentive for Cryptic to do it.
ELO is broken therefore matchmaking is broken, Panderus has stated as much. ELO needs a LOT more players involved to be effective. Therefore you're just as likely to end up with 2 BIS hardcore PVPers on the same team as you are for them to be on opposite teams. If they are 2 GFs, HRs, TRs, or any tank class tbh you're most likely up a creek if you are on the opposing team. Forcing rainbows (5 of different classes on each side) prevents this exact scenario with very little coding.
Lastly 2 of a class can mean your team winds up as 2 HR, 2 GF, TR or DC all BIS on one team in solo Q. Forced rainbow 100% prevents this nasty facepalming experience.
TLDR PVP with 5 different classes per team is much more balanced even with broken ELO and little coding.
Thanks for your reply.
However solo Q would benefit vastly as I've already shown and it is self evident if you play enough matches that not only is IL a problem but doubling up on OP classes that are FOTM or classes that give obvious advantages.
As for coding, the reason I said this is that it's already there, just not "activated". I am not a game coder and you can feel free to ask if you can code for Cryptic/Perfect world, tbh though that discussion is unnecessary here. I feel I've answered your initial queries as best I can. Either you agree or you don't but I don't know that there is anything else to offer.
TLDR: Rainbow is the most balanced comp that's the focus of this post.
Guardian Fighter
TLO
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1221446/the-future-of-the-gf/p1 Existing Problems Still In The Guardian Fighter
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/comment/12984912m
Feat Changes I'd like to see in The Guardian Fighter
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
guardian and paladin protection is rainbow?
dc and paladin devotion is rainbow?
trapper and cw is rainbow?
ON paper it is rainbow but in action it will be:
trapper and cw is like 2 cw or 2 hunter trapper a lot cc.
dc and devotion both heal a lot. is like 2 devotion or 2 dc.
guardian and paladin both can be hard to kill. is like 2 protection or 2 guardian.
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
1) Rainbow PVP matched comp is best, but most difficult to achieve simply because finding the same 5 of each class to make every individual match could potentially take an astounding amount of time. It is the most balanced matchmaking you can possibly have for the reasons afforementioned. No stacking of dps, heals, or cc.
2) Rainbow PVP is the second best option and much more attainable/sustainable as it still allows perhaps a heal pally and a DC to be grouped which may make two nodes hard to focus on but it also disadvantages them that they won't be able to wipe any players from nodes either. However even in the case you have two heal classes like this, this still happens now and worse, they may have 2 HRs or GFs or TRs to destabilize the match even further. This is a weak argument against it imho.
3) If friends of the same class want to play PVP together under my proposed idea then they could either do GG or OW or SH siege (all of which have their own separate issues which I will not address here, please do not try to bring them up, I'll be posting about them shortly and we can discuss them there). If they want to do domination together then one will have to roll another class, which in turn benefits cryptic in creating more potential revenue (read win/win).
4) While gear gap and SH boons and class balance are obviously HUGE issues some of which, we're told, are in the process of being fixed (class balance is one of the things that devs have stated they are reworking class by class) one thing that can help to even those issues out is making sure not to stack OP classes on one side, or both sides for that matter (i.e. no GWF wants to fight a 2 TR or 2 GF or 2 HR team, trust me. This is just one glaringly obvious example). Simply put rainbow PVP prevents already OP classes from being stacked on one side which in turn, by default, means better more even matches until they can fix the other massive issues in PVP.
5) This style of PVP no longer rewards the FOTM class as it will be at the back of the Q (so if a particular class is OP in PVP this mod, it will take a little bit more time to get into matches, which is a trade off when considering if they should only Q with that class). This also gives lesser played classes favor in the queue by default giving them a small "reward" for sticking with a class that may have lost favor that mod and allowing them to potentially fight similar comps that are much more rewarding matches for them.
6) Lastly but not leastly, the argument that there are "too few players who PVP" so we should just let troll comps roll is counterproductive. Besides the obvious gear gap, class balance, SH boon, and mount bonus issues that are in dire need of addressing the next best fix that would aid immensely in balancing PVP matches with the flip of a switch is forced rainbows. The reason people leave PVP is because of unbalance, this is why the Solo Q was considered. Therefore throwing our hands up and giving up on PVP because there are "too few" who do it only assures it's demise, you must address balance to reinvigorate the community. Forced rainbow PVP is the first, easiest, and best measure in doing so while the other issues are resolved more slowly because of their complexity. This is a perfect first step towards balance and saving what is left of PVP.
I really could go on forever on why rainbow PVP is best for Premades, solo Q, duo Q, or any type of Q barring 10 or 20 player PVP. It is simply a very easy balancing mechanism that encourages diversity of play, playing classes you want instead of OP classes, and fairer matches despite current unbalancing issues the game faces.
I hope this answers your questions