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Jagged Dancing Blade

devlin#3775 devlin Member Posts: 142 Arc User
Hey all,

Quick question: Do any of you know how much of a Defense debuff the Jagged Dancing Blades active bonus has? I don't see too many people use it in their builds so probably not too good, but as an active bonus at 10% chance, I'd think it would proc pretty often using a fast attacking companion.

I was debating going against the grain (con artist/sellsword) and trying jagged dancing blade as an active companion with the Greenscale bowman (5% damage boost). Greenscale dmg boost likely inferior to con artist 10% debuff, but he seems to attack fast and cause a dot which I would assume would proc the jagged blades active bonus.

TL:DR - Anyone know defense debuff from Jagged Dancing Blades active bonus?

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    rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,405 Arc User

    Hey all,

    Quick question: Do any of you know how much of a Defense debuff the Jagged Dancing Blades active bonus has? I don't see too many people use it in their builds so probably not too good, but as an active bonus at 10% chance, I'd think it would proc pretty often using a fast attacking companion.

    I was debating going against the grain (con artist/sellsword) and trying jagged dancing blade as an active companion with the Greenscale bowman (5% damage boost). Greenscale dmg boost likely inferior to con artist 10% debuff, but he seems to attack fast and cause a dot which I would assume would proc the jagged blades active bonus.

    TL:DR - Anyone know defense debuff from Jagged Dancing Blades active bonus?

    @michela123, I recall the debuff spreadsheet had something on the Jagged Dancing Blade, but its entry got deleted. Perhaps you can provide insight into the Jagged Dancing Blade?

    As for the Greenscale versus Con Artist versus Sellsword...

    Compare the Sellsword's/Con Artist's 10% defense debuff that stacks and has no cap, versus the Greenscale's triple mitigated 2% DR debuff.

    the Greenscale Bowman's debuff gets rekt by the Sellswords'/Con Artist's.

    Since this is a DC thread, I would assume that Fire of the Gods/Brand of the Sun/a Plaguefire could be sufficient to activate your Jagged Dancing Blade (assuming that the Jagged Dancing Blade's defense debuff even works?)

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    devlin#3775 devlin Member Posts: 142 Arc User
    edited December 2016
    rjc9000 said:

    Hey all,

    Quick question: Do any of you know how much of a Defense debuff the Jagged Dancing Blades active bonus has? I don't see too many people use it in their builds so probably not too good, but as an active bonus at 10% chance, I'd think it would proc pretty often using a fast attacking companion.

    I was debating going against the grain (con artist/sellsword) and trying jagged dancing blade as an active companion with the Greenscale bowman (5% damage boost). Greenscale dmg boost likely inferior to con artist 10% debuff, but he seems to attack fast and cause a dot which I would assume would proc the jagged blades active bonus.

    TL:DR - Anyone know defense debuff from Jagged Dancing Blades active bonus?

    @michela123, I recall the debuff spreadsheet had something on the Jagged Dancing Blade, but its entry got deleted. Perhaps you can provide insight into the Jagged Dancing Blade?

    As for the Greenscale versus Con Artist versus Sellsword...

    Compare the Sellsword's/Con Artist's 10% defense debuff that stacks and has no cap, versus the Greenscale's triple mitigated 2% DR debuff.

    the Greenscale Bowman's debuff gets rekt by the Sellswords'/Con Artist's.

    Since this is a DC thread, I would assume that Fire of the Gods/Brand of the Sun/a Plaguefire could be sufficient to activate your Jagged Dancing Blade (assuming that the Jagged Dancing Blade's defense debuff even works?)
    Yah, I've heard a lot about the infamous spreadsheet but alas, I never got to really take a look at it. Nevertheless, I wasn't aware the greenscale's debuff was mitigated to such a degree. That's disappointing.

    While I am aware of the con artist's 10% debuff (and so, regardless of the greenscales mitigation, is superior), I am curious on your "no cap" statement. I do know that multiple con artists stack, but I thought I read that there is a 100% debuff cap (assuming RI is nullified with armor pen). Meaning that while in theory, you could have 5 groupmates all running con artists, many of the debuffs would be in essence doing nothing since you would surpass the 100% mark? Is this not correct (though even if it is, the greenscale would run into the same problem I guess).

    Regarding the Jagged Dancing Blade, the active bonus reads:

    "Affects Companion. 10% chance to reduce targets defense."

    So I assume your summoned companion needs to proc it (which kinda went with the greenscale idea, since the greenscale attacks more quickly, has a dot (assuming the dot also has a 10% to proc the active bonus), and is ranged so (probably) can live longer than the con artist typically can.

    So I thought that Greenscale (5%) plus more procs on dancing blade ("X"%) would maybe be an interesting comparable to con artist (10%) plus less procs of jagged dancing blade (due to slower deaths and theoretically more deaths).

    Now that you've mentioned the greenscales debuff is actually only 2% (I perhaps misread this ability as I actually thought it was a 5% damage bonus to your group and not a 5% debuff to the mob), I'd likely stick with the con artist. But still curious if the jagged dancing blade is worth keeping as an active. I've tried googling the companion, but all conversations about it are regarding a certain time where for whatever reason it would do ridiculous damage and do crazy things like one-shot Tiamat.
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    vanderssonrcvanderssonrc Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited December 2016
    @jeffslider tested this months ago I believe, an epic version with the sellsword being the 'summoned' companion & said the sellsword procced this ability once in every 8-12 full swings of wicked strike & the debuff itself barely lasted. I think he said 2-3 seconds it was up for & I can't remember the percentage he said it reduces defense for (I want to say it's actually 5% but I'm not sure/can't remember his words. He may have said it doesn't even work but this was 10 months ago) & no way to ask since he's barely around now a days after testing out new builds for next year & the game itself is boring to him

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    rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,405 Arc User

    rjc9000 said:

    Hey all,

    Quick question: Do any of you know how much of a Defense debuff the Jagged Dancing Blades active bonus has? I don't see too many people use it in their builds so probably not too good, but as an active bonus at 10% chance, I'd think it would proc pretty often using a fast attacking companion.

    I was debating going against the grain (con artist/sellsword) and trying jagged dancing blade as an active companion with the Greenscale bowman (5% damage boost). Greenscale dmg boost likely inferior to con artist 10% debuff, but he seems to attack fast and cause a dot which I would assume would proc the jagged blades active bonus.

    TL:DR - Anyone know defense debuff from Jagged Dancing Blades active bonus?

    @michela123, I recall the debuff spreadsheet had something on the Jagged Dancing Blade, but its entry got deleted. Perhaps you can provide insight into the Jagged Dancing Blade?

    As for the Greenscale versus Con Artist versus Sellsword...

    Compare the Sellsword's/Con Artist's 10% defense debuff that stacks and has no cap, versus the Greenscale's triple mitigated 2% DR debuff.

    the Greenscale Bowman's debuff gets rekt by the Sellswords'/Con Artist's.

    Since this is a DC thread, I would assume that Fire of the Gods/Brand of the Sun/a Plaguefire could be sufficient to activate your Jagged Dancing Blade (assuming that the Jagged Dancing Blade's defense debuff even works?)
    Yah, I've heard a lot about the infamous spreadsheet but alas, I never got to really take a look at it. Nevertheless, I wasn't aware the greenscale's debuff was mitigated to such a degree. That's disappointing.

    While I am aware of the con artist's 10% debuff (and so, regardless of the greenscales mitigation, is superior), I am curious on your "no cap" statement. I do know that multiple con artists stack, but I thought I read that there is a 100% debuff cap (assuming RI is nullified with armor pen). Meaning that while in theory, you could have 5 groupmates all running con artists, many of the debuffs would be in essence doing nothing since you would surpass the 100% mark? Is this not correct (though even if it is, the greenscale would run into the same problem I guess).

    Regarding the Jagged Dancing Blade, the active bonus reads:

    "Affects Companion. 10% chance to reduce targets defense."

    So I assume your summoned companion needs to proc it (which kinda went with the greenscale idea, since the greenscale attacks more quickly, has a dot (assuming the dot also has a 10% to proc the active bonus), and is ranged so (probably) can live longer than the con artist typically can.

    So I thought that Greenscale (5%) plus more procs on dancing blade ("X"%) would maybe be an interesting comparable to con artist (10%) plus less procs of jagged dancing blade (due to slower deaths and theoretically more deaths).

    Now that you've mentioned the greenscales debuff is actually only 2% (I perhaps misread this ability as I actually thought it was a 5% damage bonus to your group and not a 5% debuff to the mob), I'd likely stick with the con artist. But still curious if the jagged dancing blade is worth keeping as an active. I've tried googling the companion, but all conversations about it are regarding a certain time where for whatever reason it would do ridiculous damage and do crazy things like one-shot Tiamat.
    Yeah, I reference the spreadsheet so many times, as it's been quite helpful to me when running numbers.

    Sellsword's/Con Artist's debuff is mitigated once, which means that the debuff works at full effectiveness assuming that the player attacking the debuff'd target has the 59.5% (60% if you're lazy) Resistance Ignored needed to do full damage.

    Greenscale Bowman's debuff is "less than 2%" due to debuff mitigation: the Bowman's debuff is triple mitigated. I believe my guild leader, @micky1p00, was the one who actually ran tests on the bowman for Michela's spreadsheet. Janne would likely know about this companion better than I do.

    I would point you towards Sharps' CW guide which explains the mechanics of debuffs, but it's hosted on a site which I cannot name (I think it's something about breaking the terms of service on the fourms here.).

    Anyways, in regards to debuffs "capping"...

    Assume there are 3 general types of debuffs:

    -DR (includes most debuffs in the game such as Divine Glow, Marked Targets, or Lantern of Revelation)
    -Booster/Multiplier (Sharp uses booster, I prefer multiplier, but the name's the same. this category only includes Quarry, Dreadtheft, and Ambush).
    -Defense (includes debuffs like the Dancing Shield, Sellsword, Con Artist, or Plaguefire)

    The sum of your DR debuffs times the product of your multiplier debuffs cannot exceed 200% effectiveness. Defense debuffs have no effectiveness cap, which is why I highly value Defense debuffs (the sum of your defense debuffs multiplies with buffs and other debuffs)

    @jeffslider tested this months ago I believe, an epic version with the sellsword being the 'summoned' companion & said the sellsword procced this ability once in every 8-12 full swings of wicked strike & the debuff itself barely lasted. I think he said 2-3 seconds it was up for & I can't remember the percentage he said it reduces defense for (I want to say it's actually 5% but I'm not sure/can't remember his words. He may have said it doesn't even work but this was 10 months ago) & no way to ask since he's barely around now a days after testing out new builds for next year & the game itself is boring to him

    I believe the Sellsword debuff just disappears if your Sellsword dies.

    This is what Sharp said about the Sellsword debuff on Ly'saaera's SW video thread...


    It is a 10% debuff that stacks. Imo it is BiS for every class including dps. Why? Because everyone benefits from it, not just yourself.


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    devlin#3775 devlin Member Posts: 142 Arc User
    Thanks very much rjc9000. I guess my reading comprehension is pretty poor. I thought the "200%" was:

    Defense = 100% (getting your RI to 60% would nullify this)
    and then all the defensive debuffs (dg, sellsword, etc) could further "remove" an additional 100% (leaving the mob at -100%)

    Thanks for clarifying. Regarding Vanderssonrc's comment, I think he was referring to the sellsword procing the debuff from the jagged dancing blade but I'm not sure. I'll definitely scrap the idea of the greenscale though and stick with the con artist. Still hoping someone has something definitive re: jagged dancing blade. If Vander's memory is correct re: prev comments, then it definitely seems lackluster.
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    michela123michela123 Member Posts: 257 Arc User
    "Affects Companion. 10% chance to reduce targets defense." This means that when the mob is affected by the debuff, attacks made by the Jagged Dancing Blade will be more effective, but player's attacks will be the same. I don't own a Jagged Blade, but Sharpedge was able to find one and confirmed that the debuff works like this. In other words, useless.
    And OMG I have something like 10 notifications of @rjc9000 mentioning me, ah ah!
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    rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,405 Arc User

    "Affects Companion. 10% chance to reduce targets defense." This means that when the mob is affected by the debuff, attacks made by the Jagged Dancing Blade will be more effective, but player's attacks will be the same. I don't own a Jagged Blade, but Sharpedge was able to find one and confirmed that the debuff works like this. In other words, useless.
    And OMG I have something like 10 notifications of @rjc9000 mentioning me, ah ah!

    Anytime I mention anything about debuffs, credit is given to whom found the information, since I know I sure couldn't extrapolate the formulas. That, or muscle memory from writing 3 research essay which require over 9000 quotes and citations is getting to me.

    Thanks very much rjc9000. I guess my reading comprehension is pretty poor. I thought the "200%" was:

    Defense = 100% (getting your RI to 60% would nullify this)
    and then all the defensive debuffs (dg, sellsword, etc) could further "remove" an additional 100% (leaving the mob at -100%)

    Thanks for clarifying. Regarding Vanderssonrc's comment, I think he was referring to the sellsword procing the debuff from the jagged dancing blade but I'm not sure. I'll definitely scrap the idea of the greenscale though and stick with the con artist. Still hoping someone has something definitive re: jagged dancing blade. If Vander's memory is correct re: prev comments, then it definitely seems lackluster.

    Yeah, you're not the only one who's getting confused by the naming of the debuffs. the categories are rather wonkily named, but as I have no other way to categorize it, I'll use michela's debuff formula.

    And as for the Con Artist versus Sellsword: make sure you consider the slots of each companion. Sellsword is 3x Offense compared to the Con Artist's 2x Offense 1x Defense. And Con Artist is 3x Rings versus the Sellsword's Belt/Neck/something else (sword knot? ring? I forgot the last slot.)

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    devlin#3775 devlin Member Posts: 142 Arc User

    "Affects Companion. 10% chance to reduce targets defense." This means that when the mob is affected by the debuff, attacks made by the Jagged Dancing Blade will be more effective, but player's attacks will be the same. I don't own a Jagged Blade, but Sharpedge was able to find one and confirmed that the debuff works like this. In other words, useless.
    And OMG I have something like 10 notifications of @rjc9000 mentioning me, ah ah!

    Um well damn, that is super useless and disappointing. Guess it's back to the same 5 companions as everyone else in my guild. Ugh, thought this was potentially a neat active bonus.
    rjc9000 said:

    "Affects Companion. 10% chance to reduce targets defense." This means that when the mob is affected by the debuff, attacks made by the Jagged Dancing Blade will be more effective, but player's attacks will be the same. I don't own a Jagged Blade, but Sharpedge was able to find one and confirmed that the debuff works like this. In other words, useless.
    And OMG I have something like 10 notifications of @rjc9000 mentioning me, ah ah!

    Anytime I mention anything about debuffs, credit is given to whom found the information, since I know I sure couldn't extrapolate the formulas. That, or muscle memory from writing 3 research essay which require over 9000 quotes and citations is getting to me.

    Thanks very much rjc9000. I guess my reading comprehension is pretty poor. I thought the "200%" was:

    Defense = 100% (getting your RI to 60% would nullify this)
    and then all the defensive debuffs (dg, sellsword, etc) could further "remove" an additional 100% (leaving the mob at -100%)

    Thanks for clarifying. Regarding Vanderssonrc's comment, I think he was referring to the sellsword procing the debuff from the jagged dancing blade but I'm not sure. I'll definitely scrap the idea of the greenscale though and stick with the con artist. Still hoping someone has something definitive re: jagged dancing blade. If Vander's memory is correct re: prev comments, then it definitely seems lackluster.

    Yeah, you're not the only one who's getting confused by the naming of the debuffs. the categories are rather wonkily named, but as I have no other way to categorize it, I'll use michela's debuff formula.

    And as for the Con Artist versus Sellsword: make sure you consider the slots of each companion. Sellsword is 3x Offense compared to the Con Artist's 2x Offense 1x Defense. And Con Artist is 3x Rings versus the Sellsword's Belt/Neck/something else (sword knot? ring? I forgot the last slot.)
    Yah, I think (on ps4) the better option is the con artist for the 3 ring slots as we don't have any of the adorable gear atm (fairly certain the sellswords 3rd slot is the sword knot at you mentioned).

    Thanks all for your responses!! While my hopes have been dashed (sad face), you guys have been a massive help! :smile:
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