It Wasn’t Just the Keys…

aasiris

It Wasn’t Just the Keys…

Recently, we have seen negative community feedback and the departure of several high profile, respected players. I believe both came out of developers' lack of understanding of the experience of level 70 play. The level 70 game is a long grind where a commitment of months is required to fully realize any character concept.
There are many potential improvements to be made to address this long, intermittently rewarding experience. While improvements can be made in: reward structure, class balance, game mechanic consistency, and high level challenge, in this discussion I would like to address another challenge: heavy-handed DM'ing.
Heavy-handed DM'ing is a challenge we inherited from the pen and paper game. In it a DM attempts to entice participation not by an appeal to the players' interests but rather by threats of what will happen if they do not participate. In MMORPGs the threat of irrelevance (by being left behind the power curve) is an example of such a threat. Heavy-handed DM'ing causes players to grind for gear, not because they are trying to realize an idea but rather because they fear being left behind.
The clearest example Of heavy-handed DM'ing in I have seen in Neverwinter is the introduction of relic weapons. Unlike the previous constellation of weapons where drowned, twisted, and burning sets were useful in different builds – the higher item level of the relic set makes it the weapon of choice in virtually any conceivable build. Even support builds cannot afford the loss of DPS, stats, and healing that the use of ANY other weapon set would represent. Combine this with the greatest grind for a weapon set ever, and we have every alt pushed (by heavy-handed DM'ing) into weeks or months of repetitive play simply to avoid falling behind the power curve.
The new maps are gorgeous! Seriously, your graphic artists deserve a huge bonus. Unfortunately, a gilded hamster wheel is still a hamster wheel. I suspects many people are waiting to see if this remains the only viable set for every build. If it does I suspect you will see more player departures. Of greatest concern is speculation that the demographics hardest hit by attrition will be (lucrative) casual players and class-build creators who lead communities, guilds, and message boards.
Even with a diverse player community, there are many alternatives to heavy-handed DM'ing. I prefer item improvements where item level inches forward only slightly and the set or item bonuses are what distinguishes one item from another. I love it when I see older (statistically inferior) sets used to great effect. I hate to see a change that quashes such creativity! I am happy to offer ideas for new items, item abilities, and new sets but not in this discussion.
Here I will simply offer a short stop-gap measure to improve present Neverwinter play: 1> return the loyal items (so that players can build based on companion choice again), 2> give OPs a free respec (courtesy after changing a half dozen of their powers unannounced), and 3> allow for the elemental infusion (raising item level) of non-relic existing sets to lower heavy-handed item level push.

I am hopeful some of our development team sees this post and addresses these concerns. Sadly, I am not immune to the corrosion of the grind. I would hate to say: "so long and thanks for all the fish."

Marcus

sonji

heck Marcus, all they really would need to do...make the ele/twisted sets go mythic say IL 155 and poof they still usable and now we aint left behind. but honestly they need to bring the old ele weapon (you know the free one for EE) up to speed a bit...not saying make it great it is a free weapon for doing story line but common its a great new player weapon and should be useable at level 70.....at least before it is legendary.....even then they barely better then a green twisted set

greywynd

Except they made it clear with the stripping of old set abilities that chasing new stuff is what is important in the game.

armadeonx

Nice post, I agree with it.

spoomeister

"Unfortunately, a gilded hamster wheel is still a hamster wheel."

Well said. I don't have near the level of frustration or disappointment that some players seem to, and skip over a lot of the whining here and on reddit. But your post makes some good points about relic weapons.

I was fairly close to a break or just stopping altogether myself until I

• gave up on some things where the grind wasn't worth the potential reward, like much of SKT due to feedback about voninblood etc. or the last bits of ToD/WoD for those boons
  
• joined a really good guild that so far has matched my schedule, interests and playing style pretty well
  

That second point is essential because it got me a good 'in' to participating in good dragonflights and good edemo runs, both of which are required for me to get more dragonflight armor. Chasing DF and a twisted weapon set is fine for me for a while, then I can go buy / selectively grind for the SKT items that are an upgrade beyond that.

Also helped that I hit some sort of tipping point recently where it is more realistic and affordable for me to grind / trade for AD to buy certain things rather than go chasing after individual items or especially refining individual stones myself.

loboguild

I don't agree the new Weapon Set is better for all builds. You can use it as better replacement for Drowned and Twisted, but Burning? If you're running one of those ACDCs Burning is still better unless you can already spam AA without it.

This game however severely needs some fun elements that are unattached to grind. Even all dungeons are part of the daily treadmill.​​

aasiris

loboguild said:

I don't agree the new Weapon Set is better for all builds. You can use it as better replacement for Drowned and Twisted, but Burning? If you're running one of those ACDCs Burning is still better unless you can already spam AA without it.

Your point is valid and will last until the telegraphed nerf of AA....

Marcus

demonmonger

Who knows they may just remove the burning set bonus. Happened before...

greywynd

spoomeister#9137 said:

gave up on some things where the grind wasn't worth the potential reward, like much of SKT due to feedback about voninblood etc. or the last bits of ToD/WoD for those boons
joined a really good guild that so far has matched my schedule, interests and playing style pretty well

I'm not grinding for the last Tyranny boon on my main. When it happens, I will get it.

Being in a guild of like-minded players and having fun is pretty much essential.

dread4moor

@aasiris
"Heavy-handed DM'ing is a challenge we inherited from the pen and paper game. In it a DM attempts to entice participation not by an appeal to the players' interests but rather by threats of what will happen if they do not participate. In MMORPGs the threat of irrelevance (by being left behind the power curve) is an example of such a threat. Heavy-handed DM'ing causes players to grind for gear, not because they are trying to realize an idea but rather because they fear being left behind."

I don't think this analogy fits.
Freedom of choice - driven narratives are indeed the basis of PandP DandD. A good PnP DM does not steer the story. Sure.
But strict PnP narrative continuities (and associated equipment/power upgrades) rarely transfer well MMORPGs.

Hard to maintain a unique equipment/narrative continuity for each of the million or so toons interracting over a dozen campaigns.
NWNights kept a fairly good continuity. City of Heroes did it fairly well. But an MMoORPG by nature cannot be a TellTale game.

aasiris

dread4moor said:

Hard to maintain a unique equipment/narrative continuity for each of the million or so toons interracting over a dozen campaigns.

I agree.
I think the best way to allow for the narrative to be developed by the players is to allow a rich selection of viable equipment for the player to select from as they create their own narrative.
The concern above highlights the DM choice to replace (or to eliminate) viable equipment rather than to add.

Marcus

umarachnea

aasiris said:

The concern above highlights the DM choice to replace (or to eliminate) viable equipment rather than to add.

I agree with your op for the most part, but mostly with this last point.

While I perfectly accept new gear as part of this genre's foundation, it becomes a problem when the new gear comes with the removal or negation of previous sets (the ones directly before them)

It's great to have access to better gear, as long as I can still choose to NOT acquire it. I don't want to grind for ages, only to have my efforts flushed away with a new expansion instantly. My BiS gear is the new relic armor, but I can still use my current build. If that goes away, and I'm useless without the new gear (soon after release) then what's the point?

As annoying as grinding away to maintain my new gear, I'd do it for that extra edge. I just want to know that if I want to skip that grind, I can still operate at about 90% efficiency (compared to the new set), and maybe skip an expansion before upgrading, or take my time and not feel pressured into it.

tom

@umarachnea#5673
But thats the case right now.
U can grind for the new stuff.
But all content can be done without it (given u reach the 28% ef to enter).
I dont think someone will get kicked fro. Groups cause he wears twisted/burning weapons or cause he doesnt have the new armor.

umarachnea

tom#6998 said:

@umarachnea#5673

But thats the case right now.

U can grind for the new stuff.

But all content can be done without it (given u reach the 28% ef to enter).

I dont think someone will get kicked fro. Groups cause he wears twisted/burning weapons or cause he doesnt have the new armor.

Yes agreed. Was just referring to the op, where previous gear is rendered obsolete too fast. I know I can right now, hope that doesn't change though.

aasiris

tom#6998 said:

I dont think someone will get kicked fro. Groups cause he wears twisted/burning weapons or cause he doesnt have the new armor.

You are correct but this is also missing the point.
Yes, nobody is kicked out of groups presently for not having relic equipment.
However, when refined relic equipment becomes common anyone will be irrelevant if they do not grind for it.
I'm not sure many people are playing for a chance to "not be kicked out."
Most people play to make a difference.
Unless options are introduced we will all have to choose either to grind for the weapon set or not make much of a difference (comparatively).

Marcus

tom

aasiris said:

tom#6998 said:

I dont think someone will get kicked fro. Groups cause he wears twisted/burning weapons or cause he doesnt have the new armor.

You are correct but this is also missing the point.
Yes, nobody is kicked out of groups presently for not having relic equipment.
However, when refined relic equipment becomes common anyone will be irrelevant if they do not grind for it.
I'm not sure many people are playing for a chance to "not be kicked out."
Most people play to make a difference.
Unless options are introduced we will all have to choose either to grind for the weapon set or not make much of a difference (comparatively).

Marcus

difference isnt that much.
there are 3k players outperforming 4k players.
there will be players without the weapons outperforming the ones who have them.
i dont think that my friendslist/guild/alliance or the channels i run with would care if i wear twisted or relic set on my sw. I only got it cause i wanted to get every % i can get for my char. But do the 5 seconds u can shave of a run wearing the new weapons really matter? i dont think so.
there are so much bigger factors then those weapons.
and for what u want to make a difference? if you want to get the record for FBI speedruns or smth like that then yes u should get the weapons but otherwhise i dont see the problem

aasiris

tom#6998 said:

difference isnt that much.

I agree with you there are many bigger factors than gear.
I love to explore those factors and understand how classes excel!

However, I disagree about the weapon difference.
If you believe that a 20% difference in base weapon damage and 2000 power from set item level "isn't that much" I will agree to disagree with you.

I believe this item set decision is indicative of a worrisome trend that extends far beyond this weapon set.
I had noted the recent departure of SharpEdge and Lazalia's post about pulling back from build-maintenance and felt they were not completely understood.
This is why I wrote the post.

I am happy that you have a group of friends/guild/ alliance that you play with and that is helping drive your play experience.
I suspect those relationships will help you continue to enjoy the game.
You may find that players who are driven primarily by character concept or build-actualization may not feel the same about the recent changes.

Simply put, you are not the target of my original post: I was hoping the developers would understand how some of their players (not you) feel and be able to make game decisions that will fit more of their player population.

I hope I responded appropriately to your post.
I am hopeful this clarification helps put my original post in context.
I will not respond to further posts about item set difference as I do not wish to derail this thread.
If you wish to discuss that difference I will be happy to comment on it in another thread.

Marcus

umarachnea

tom#6998 said:

difference isnt that much.
there are 3k players outperforming 4k players.
there will be players without the weapons outperforming the ones who have them.

Completely agree on this. And I too play with a group of people who won't really care. That being said, there is a large number of the player base who will be either kicked out or not invited into groups because they don't. Even pre-relic set there are still people who can't get into groups.

Personal performance plays a major role, specially if you have a proper build. Most groups won't focus on that. And just care about whether or not you have the sets they deem worthy.

There other implications as Marcus mentions, but that's slightly beyond my capabilities.

docj0r

I agree. But as far as DPS goes I think the most outrageous thing going on is bonding runestones. They are the baseline now, a really really expensive baseline that comes from lockboxes.

I do not think that the simple choice between companion setup should result in such an enormous DPS difference. I'd also say these things tend to trivialize content when stacked up.

I can't think of other enchantment or item choices that result in such a large difference in power.