50,000 power from bonding stones

tigersclaw

I just saw a cleric with 87,000 power while he was fighting. After the fight, his power dropped to 38,000 power. That means his rank 12 bonding stones give him around 50,000 power, which is absurd.

He was not in a group, he was alone, so don't blame buffs from other classes, I've heard weapons of light and cleric powers have been fixed in the last update, so that's not the issue as well.

Since I noticed his power dropped from 87,000 back to 38,000 exactly 20 seconds after the fight, and that's the time companion's gift expires, there is no doubt bonding stones caused this insane power creep, not something else like ppl sometimes argue.

I would apreciate serious math from someone worried about the issue. I know lots of ppl agree with me this is a big problem and I did math with someone who used bonding stones and brutality rings on their companion, that is also a problematic mix.

thor

Wait what's there to worry about and what is your problem exactly? The fact that you don't understand how the bondings proc or the fact that he is getting a lot of power stacks? I saw you post something in may about just getting your Daring shout ability. So safe to say you seem still pretty new to the game and rest assured there are some things you won't know and understand.

A lot of things contribute to power stacks. Bonding is 1, your feats and powers. The twisted weapon set which gives you 160 power every time you hit an enemy and stacks 24 times . There are also campaign boons, your rings both on you and on your companion and as of recently insignia bonuses and insignia's themselves. 87,000 power on a cleric is pretty standard stuff to be honest. Nothing worth mentioning. The good thing about clerics is they can power share with other in a group and in fact they stack considerably more power early on than a lot of other classes. That's what they do, they support.

Rank 12 bonding stones are also not something so simple - it takes a lot of time, refinement or and money to get rank 12 bonding's up so they should be worth a lot if they help a lot.

Also like i said 87,000 power is nothing. I have seen a 4K in a 4k team get over 500,000 power. I am still yet to understand your point or question.

missdayum

thor#9537 said:

Also like i said 87,000 power is nothing. I have seen a 4K in a 4k team get over 500,000 power. I am still yet to understand your point or question.

Now THAT IS the point where the mods/developers should take a second look on the bonding stones. This matter is going on for a very long time and either I think they didn't realize that by now or just don't care much.

I mean taking down Tiamat in the very first round. One head within 5-6 seconds then up to the next isn't how the game suppose to be right? And that damage is done by just 1 person. So you tell me!? Nerfing the GF/DC/SW didn't do ... the bonding stones is the real problem here. Yeah haters gonna cry now but I'm just listing the facts here and besides I was never a fan of bonding proc anyway, also they are not so hard to aquire either. Just 1.8 million each on the tradehouse! My two cents for today...

thor

What? it was only the brocken SW's that could ever do that. The clerics couldn't kill tiamat in 5seconds even if they tried. Are you on medication or just assuming at this point? Don't ruin the game for others just because you don't understand whats happening lol

oldbaldyone

missdayum said:

thor#9537 said:

Also like i said 87,000 power is nothing. I have seen a 4K in a 4k team get over 500,000 power. I am still yet to understand your point or question.

Now THAT IS the point where the mods/developers should take a second look on the bonding stones. This matter is going on for a very long time and either I think they didn't realize that by now or just don't care much.

I mean taking down Tiamat in the very first round. One head within 5-6 seconds then up to the next isn't how the game suppose to be right? And that damage is done by just 1 person. So you tell me!? Nerfing the GF/DC/SW didn't do ... the bonding stones is the real problem here. Yeah haters gonna cry now but I'm just listing the facts here and besides I was never a fan of bonding proc anyway, also they are not so hard to aquire either. Just 1.8 million each on the tradehouse! My two cents for today...

You may wish to avoid looking for the youtube video in which a 5 person group downed Tiamat in round 1.

The fact is - they reviewed bonding stones, and made them stronger. Another fact is, there are many buff interactions that need to have caps added, in order to prevent things like this from being an issue. The bonding stones are a part of the issue, but not the entire problem.

missdayum said:

thor#9537 said:

anyway, also they are not so hard to aquire either. Just 1.8 million each on the tradehouse! My two cents for today...

They are no less than 4m on PC. Any rank 12 that's sold for less than about 4m (on any platform) is being sold at a loss due to the material costs.

thefabricant

thor#9537 said:

Wait what's there to worry about and what is your problem exactly? The fact that you don't understand how the bondings proc or the fact that he is getting a lot of power stacks? I saw you post something in may about just getting your Daring shout ability. So safe to say you seem still pretty new to the game and rest assured there are some things you won't know and understand.



A lot of things contribute to power stacks. Bonding is 1, your feats and powers. The twisted weapon set which gives you 160 power every time you hit an enemy and stacks 24 times . There are also campaign boons, your rings both on you and on your companion and as of recently insignia bonuses and insignia's themselves. 87,000 power on a cleric is pretty standard stuff to be honest. Nothing worth mentioning. The good thing about clerics is they can power share with other in a group and in fact they stack considerably more power early on than a lot of other classes. That's what they do, they support.



Rank 12 bonding stones are also not something so simple - it takes a lot of time, refinement or and money to get rank 12 bonding's up so they should be worth a lot if they help a lot.



Also like i said 87,000 power is nothing. I have seen a 4K in a 4k team get over 500,000 power. I am still yet to understand your point or question.

The twisted power bonus is not shared. Neither is the power from underdark rings. Using underdark rings on dc, is like using a 0 stat ring with 2 slots. Unless those rings are rank 5 and have 2 offense slots, it is literally better to use a 1 slot ring with power/crit that drops in T1s.

thor

I'm sorry I don't see what any of your points are and I don't sympethize at all. The Scorge warlocks were Brocken there was no doubt about that. But a team based effort to do dps is completely different from a 1 man army.

First of all the fact of the matter is I haven't seen anyone killing Tiamat or orcus like that ever since the Scourge patch so I'm pretty sure you guys are exaggerating and or remembering a pre-Mod 10 run.

Secondly a lot of people in this game DON'T know how to play their classes correctly. Iv out dpsed 4K GWF and I'm a 3k GWF and then I run with a 3.5k GWF who know what they are doing and they out dps me considerably. So maybe your just not utilising your class appropriately so then use that to complain about others (not cool).

Thirdly I don't know about you guys but I have a life and iv already put in a year into this game iv run over 400 Castle Never's and am yet to get an orcus wand. I have had 9 months of V.I.P and got nothing good at ALL.

The drop rate in this game is absolutely disgusting I am confident it's like 0.13% chance to actually get any of the good items. When you add the fact that the dungeon itself takes about 45mins to an hour to complete that's time out of your life your never getting back. So instead of complaining about damage which actually helps people farm dungeons more quickly. What you should be complaining about is the drop rates in this game.

Getting honest characters nerfed because of YOUR personal opinion is not only selfish but it isn't actually helping anyone achieve anything. Your just making dungeon runs take more time out of your life and get no reward for it.

Also if you haven't been playing this game that long and so have a limited understanding and try and project your idea on how the game should be played makes no sense. Your only deluding yourself because how do you know how the game is meant to be played? Your just making it up as you go along.

thefabricant

thor#9537 said:

I'm sorry I don't see what any of your points are and I don't sympethize at all. The Scorge warlocks were Brocken there was no doubt about that. But a team based effort to do dps is completely different from a 1 man army.



First of all the fact of the matter is I haven't seen anyone killing Tiamat or orcus like that ever since the Scourge patch so I'm pretty sure you guys are exaggerating and or remembering a pre-Mod 10 run.



Secondly a lot of people in this game DON'T know how to play their classes correctly. Iv out dpsed 4K GWF and I'm a 3k GWF and then I run with a 3.5k GWF who know what they are doing and they out dps me considerably. So maybe your just not utilising your class appropriately so then use that to complain about others (not cool).



Thirdly I don't know about you guys but I have a life and iv already put in a year into this game iv run over 400 Castle Never's and am yet to get an orcus wand. I have had 9 months of V.I.P and got nothing good at ALL.



The drop rate in this game is absolutely disgusting I am confident it's like 0.13% chance to actually get any of the good items. When you add the fact that the dungeon itself takes about 45mins to an hour to complete that's time out of your life your never getting back. So instead of complaining about damage which actually helps people farm dungeons more quickly. What you should be complaining about is the drop rates in this game.



Getting honest characters nerfed because of YOUR personal opinion is not only selfish but it isn't actually helping anyone achieve anything. Your just making dungeon runs take more time out of your life and get no reward for it.



Also if you haven't been playing this game that long and so have a limited understanding and try and project your idea on how the game should be played makes no sense. Your only deluding yourself because how do you know how the game is meant to be played? Your just making it up as you go along.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQ2NMQJx-9s

Mod 10.

thor

Well that was pretty quick but is that a 4K team? Because you do realise Tiamat is a 2k or 1.6k level requirement it shouldn't really be difficult for 4K especially seeing as castle never is still a struggle for me with a 3k team and its only 2k level requirement. The new dungeon is 3.1k just to do it so imagine what that will be like when you need everyone and 4k's struggle in that and 4K is the cap (4.2k).

All I am saying is complain about something that will benefit everyone like the drop rate not on matters on your personal envy of a melt squad like that. Do something that will help everyone not something that will make this game lose more people with its ever dwindling community.

Think about all the other games coming out. You really think if they keep nerfing everyone and leave the drop rate as terrible as it is you'll have anyone to run any dungeons with? Lol

sundance777

3 rank 12 bonding stones pass over 280% of the companion stats. My companion has 6 or 7K power and if there are power giving rings equiped the companion can easily have 12-15K power to share x2.8 = 33-42K with no other feats/or buffs. It is actually very easy to get a 50K boost in combat.

lirithiel

@thor you don't seem to get it. The most recent change to Bondings has just added to the ever-increasing power creep in the game. Trying to justify the absurd power given by Bondings by saying that it takes plenty of time and resources to obtain that level of power is laughable. It's fine if you don't want a challenge in NW so continue running eLoL ad nauseam, but many of us do want a challenge so we can enjoy the game again like we did in the early Mods, where wiping in a dungeon was a given. The fact that the Buglock has been fixed, as well as the Chromatic artifact and the Ambush Drake leads me to believe that Bondings will be addressed again and properly this time, and I will personally take pleasure in rubbing it in your face and the others that think Bondings are fine as is.

cscriv79

You are referencing old very low IL areas, a 4k group can blitz all content due to the fact it is all lower IL and made to be beatable at that lower IL, such as EToS which can be beaten with a group all at minimum level.

The current content has not been made to take into account companion set ups, mount set ups and guild boons so any high IL runs through Tiamat, EToS, LoL, CN etc are pointless to base things being overpowered on.

They are removing the buffs from the High Profit/Vizier sets due to fast runs of the new FBI dungeon, but from what I have heard and seen for a 4k group who know how to play it will be a 20 min dungeon and only farmable to make AD from buying kits from SKT zone stores.

All items that drop seem to be Bind on Pickup.

micky1p00

lirithiel said:

@thor you don't seem to get it. The most recent change to Bondings has just added to the ever-increasing power creep in the game. Trying to justify the absurd power given by Bondings by saying that it takes plenty of time and resources to obtain that level of power is laughable. It's fine if you don't want a challenge in NW so continue running eLoL ad nauseam, but many of us do want a challenge so we can enjoy the game again like we did in the early Mods, where wiping in a dungeon was a given. The fact that the Buglock has been fixed, as well as the Chromatic artifact and the Ambush Drake leads me to believe that Bondings will be addressed again and properly this time, and I will personally take pleasure in rubbing it in your face and the others that think Bondings are fine as is.

@lirithiel You miss the context, here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Neverwinter/comments/5awplw/50000_power_from_bonding_stones_so_broken/

The OP doesn't understand how bondings work, nor take it in the correct context of everything else.
So in essence Thor is right. Also Thors have big hammers, so they always right.

Also check the threads by the OP, there is anti cleric anger there, about DPS race.

tigersclaw

missdayum said:

I mean taking down Tiamat in the very first round. One head within 5-6 seconds then up to the next isn't how the game suppose to be right? And that damage is done by just 1 person. So you tell me!?

Good example, not to mention Dragonflight, which has the same problem now. Ppl equipped with rank 12 bonding stones kill the dragons in Dragonflight in just around 1 minute. Dragonflight ruined thanks to bonding stones.

lirithiel said:

It's fine if you don't want a challenge in NW so continue running eLoL ad nauseam, but many of us do want a challenge so we can enjoy the game again

Well said. I agree, I'm one of those who want a challenge from the game, unlike the people who want it easy, everyone's a superhero, no skill required.

A game is supposed to be challenging, bosses are supposed to be hard.

At least you 2 are intelligent and honest enough to admit the problem. Keep fighting the good fight.

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micky1p00

tigernuno said:

A game is supposed to be challenging, bosses are supposed to be hard.

True, no argument there.

tigernuno said:

Good example, not to mention Dragonflight, which has the same problem now. Ppl equipped with rank 12 bonding stones kill the dragons in Dragonflight in just around 1 minute. Dragonflight ruined thanks to bonding stones.

Well said. I agree, I'm one of those who want a challenge from the game, unlike the people who want it easy, everyone's a superhero, no skill required.

And here you miss the point, 50k power is not what killed those dragons so fast. You just never ran the content where you can measure it or experience it. The fast kills are debuffs / buffs and some interactions. You can have 3 DPS (+tank, heals) with 4k, bondings 12 doing FBI and it will be slower (as in twice as long or more) than 2 support classes (MoF, DC) and one DPS. using buffers will be even faster with the DPS not using bondings than the 3 DPS with 50k power each option.

thor

I'm not part of the people who melt everything I struggle like everyone else. If they need to take into account new buffs then they should add more dungeons that make it more challenging. That's just my opinion on it.

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lirithiel

Ok Janne, do me a favour will ya? Get a party together, with all five players equipping Ioun Stones or similar augments and run whatever dungeon you want and see the disparity between that run and one where the party is using Bonding Runestones. I can imagine you already know what the outcome will be. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Bonding Runestone is the single most powerful item in the game atm and that is why certain ppl don't want it to be addressed. The OP is well aware of how Bondings work - you seem to be misinterpreting what he's saying. It has nothing to do with any vendetta against DCs. The buffs and debuffs are are talking about will not be happening with Bondings AND THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT OF THIS THREAD.

draco16

These are the type of postings that lead to the nerfing of characters. Yesterday the trickster were too powerful so they got nerfed, followed by the haste clerics, lest not forget the overpowered bubbles of the pallidins as well as their damage mitigation getting nerfed. Then the guardian fighters are too strong with their Frey or the scourge warlock do too much damage too and are one shooting monsters. The only thing creeping in this game is the nerf bat and everytime we get these discussions complaining about another class it precipitates the next nerf. The result is classes in game that can't do anything since they can't destroy targets and they can't contribute to groups they get kicked out of dungeons and are useless.

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lirithiel

defiantone99 said:

A bonding pet can cost over 10 million AD. That is where the issue is. Some are unwilling to invest that, so want to nerf the stones so they can use an undergeared augment with random stones and enchants without worry.

Oh come on. That is just short-sighted and a ridiculous statement. I have 3 R12 Bonding Runestones and an army of epic companions and I want Bondings addressed too. They are HAMSTER up the game.

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draco16

The end result is the people who get nerfed leave the game, great solution. If your bonding stones so trouble you sell them and leave that aspect of the game alone for the fewer remaining players in the game.

tigersclaw

lirithiel said:

Ok Janne, do me a favour will ya? Get a party together, with all five players equipping Ioun Stones or similar augments and run whatever dungeon you want and see the disparity between that run and one where the party is using Bonding Runestones. I can imagine you already know what the outcome will be. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Bonding Runestone is the single most powerful item in the game atm and that is why certain ppl don't want it to be addressed. The OP is well aware of how Bondings work - you seem to be misinterpreting what he's saying. It has nothing to do with any vendetta against DCs. The buffs and debuffs are are talking about will not be happening with Bondings AND THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT OF THIS THREAD.

I agree with everything you said, great to finally see someone who understands the problem and doesn't pretend it doesn't exist. I have nothing against DC's, or any class. This problem exists for all classes.

A player had 87,000 power during a fight, exactly 20 seconds after the fight, their power dropped from 87,000 to 38,000 all of the sudden. Companion's gift expires after 20 seconds. Gee I wonder what gave him this insane power buff. Not that hard to grasp.

lirithiel said:

Oh come on. That is just short-sighted and a ridiculous statement. I have 3 R12 Bonding Runestones and an army of epic companions and I want Bondings addressed too. They are HAMSTER up the game.

Right on, you have rank 12 bonding stones but still admit the problem. Very well done, I commend you.

I saw another older post about this subject, you and another person were there posting over and over again, I admired your intelligent comments, your extreme patience, with so many people who don't get it, or just pretend, they don't want to address the elephant in the room.

oldbaldyone

If you wanted a challenging game, I think you picked the wrong one. This is a casual friendly game, and it likely always will be. It was that way when you started (whenever that was), will be that way when you leave (whenever that is). There is only so much challenge you can put in to an action MMORPG, and the limited resources they have here isn't going to change that.

Do I think bonding stones are BIS? Yep. Before they adjusted them, you at least had to be a little clever to get the best usage out of them. What they were thinking when they improved them I'll never know. If they nerf the loyal gear, that will likely be enough IMO. Other things would need to be addressed outside bonding stones to really have an impact.

The way you guys are talking about these things though, you'd think it was a matter of putting them on and facerolling through dungeons in godmode for anyone. Don't let the few people who REALLY know their class, and REALLY know how abilities interact, and REALLY know how to work as a team, lead you to believe that everyone is that way. Yes, people can faceroll ETOS and ELOL....as they should be able to if they have the means to get R12 anything. A small group is facerolling CN and FBI, but a LOT of people struggle even with the bondings. Even THEN, with dungeons needing to be run a thousand times to get anything of value, do you really WANT to struggle?

Even if you succeed in getting them nerfed into the ground, you know what is going to happen? These same people will either A) leave the game, cause there is no point becoming more powerful if everytime you do so your work is taken away from you, or B)find another way to be more powerful than you, leading to a new flavor of the month for you to complain about. What will be the effect on you? More time spent in your 10000000th run of the same limited set of dungeons, looking for that one item to make you a smidge stronger, for no real reason and to be nerfed the moment it is deemed that item is too strong.

thefabricant

So, how much of a dps boost is 50k power then?

*Fetches popcorn.*

micky1p00

lirithiel said:

Ok Janne, do me a favour will ya? Get a party together, with all five players equipping Ioun Stones or similar augments and run whatever dungeon you want and see the disparity between that run and one where the party is using Bonding Runestones. I can imagine you already know what the outcome will be. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Bonding Runestone is the single most powerful item in the game atm and that is why certain ppl don't want it to be addressed. The OP is well aware of how Bondings work - you seem to be misinterpreting what he's saying. It has nothing to do with any vendetta against DCs. The buffs and debuffs are are talking about will not be happening with Bondings AND THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT OF THIS THREAD.

Have you checked the link?

People with this insane power creep from bonding stones, their companion is much stronger (has a lot more power) than their weak character. Their bonding stones cheat carries them, not skill, their companion carries them. Why even create a character in the 1st place? Just let your companion carry you, do everything for you, don't even play.

Is that how suddenly bondings work ?!

Yes, bondings is one of the most powerfull self 'buffs' in the game now. And yes, there is a disparity between people who have them and those that do not. More so because it's not part of the IL. No argument there.

Should sudden rings work on bondings ? IMO no.
Should bonding be toned down ? Probably. Believe me, I'm not a fan of MIA companions, or the Turtle in FBI and blink dog.

But don't forget the price disparity between augment, with goats at 300k AD, and one normal bonding at 800k (x3 2.4kk) and r12 at 4mil per one for a total of 12mil for the set. Now lets compare apples to apples here, perfect vorpal with 50% severity is
also around 4mil and with 100% crit chance adds ~28% dps -> 3 vorpals (12kk AD) will be 85% dps increase.
Without bondings I'm sitting at ~33k power. My companions has ~6k power, with all r12 ecnhants (but I don't use the brutal), when bondings proc it's 285% = 17kpower, that's 50% increase in power and will be 23.6% in dps%

Actually i've compared no bondings with bondings, better yet, I should compare augment to bondings, so it's 40k power vs 50k.
That's 25% increase, 12% in dps. There is a small caveat that I gain critical strike and ArP with loyal gear, but lets convert it all to power: 10k power on companion.

So total as augment: ~33k+10k = 43k.
Total as bondings: ~33k + 28.5k = 61k
41% increase in power and 21% increase in dps.

Orcus shard will cost ne 4mil for 10% increase.
Or same as Vorpals at 25% crit chance at the same price. Or half the vorpals at 50% crit chance.
Nothing special at all.

My example perhaps it's not the most min/max option, but It's a very expansive one all r12, all loyal gear.

The problem is feedback loop that allows the companion be buffed. This is not a bonding problem but a companion issue. So lets not caps for nothing.

The whole noise from 20% buff, or lets say 40% if we consider better stat distribution, margin of error, and other stuff. Is really not what kills DF dragons in seconds.
The OP saw 50k power. Great, but big power numbers may look awesome or overpowered or whatever, but if I can get 200% buff from a class, I'll take that any day, over 20%-40% from awesome huge power numbers.

micky1p00

lirithiel said:

defiantone99 said:

A bonding pet can cost over 10 million AD. That is where the issue is. Some are unwilling to invest that, so want to nerf the stones so they can use an undergeared augment with random stones and enchants without worry.

Oh come on. That is just short-sighted and a ridiculous statement. I have 3 R12 Bonding Runestones and an army of epic companions and I want Bondings addressed too. They are HAMSTER up the game.

Also you forget that long ago, even augment doubled your stats. Bondings even more so. This is not the case today when you get the normal gear. So the relative increase is not as big as you remember.
Try yourself with a good party composition with debufs, a run with bondings and a run without. ofcourse there is a difference but it's not as huge as some all caps threads will want you to believe.

lirithiel said:

you seem to be misinterpreting what he's saying. It has nothing to do with any vendetta against DCs.

You should have read that link:

Yes it impacts my game because they kill everything too fast, steal all my kills

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zman81420

I've seen my power a month ago at 2.6 billion so yeah 87k is game breaking. Just play the game, heck even enjoy it if you can and stop worrying about a game that technically doesn't require you to live on. Good thread btw.