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The temptation/Support Warlock thread.
denvald
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 702 Arc User
Hello everyone!
Some of you may remember me from last year, as I was very active back then both on the forums and in the game on my warlock. But after a year's break I decided to come back to NW when they announced the SW rebalance in m10.
Presentations aside, this thread aims to look at the Scourge warlock's temptation tree and how the healing/support warlock can be handled for Neverwinter. So let's dive in!
The Problem
Currently, the queue system doesn't recognize a temptation warlock as a healer/support at all. This needs to be adressed. (More later)
The temptation tree is underperforming. It isn't able to fill it's role in a dungeon. There are 3 sub roles to a support player.
1. Healing
2. Protecting
3. Buffing/debuffing
So let's look at how warlocks perform currently...
They can buff/debuff (arguably less than a cleric but do more personal dps to compensate, so i think this is a fine tradeoff.) so this one is OK.
Protection? Compounded soul Feat - occasionnaly give 5% of your max HP to allies. That's about it, so that's a giant Nope.
Healing - Yes, at high gear levels. And that's a problem, because only a highly geared warlock is capable of sustaining a group in raw healing. Why? It's reliant on your life steal stat. The better your life steal stat is, the more you heal. The distance between gear gaps makes this very inconsistant, meaning high geared players will be able to heal players 4-5x their allies full HP bar in one hit, and low geared players aren't able to heal the group effectively.
I believe the end result is that trying to rebalance the current temptation capstone will always fail because of this gap, shifting the numbers will never solve this problem. If we were to increase the healing to make it possible for lower geared players to sustain a group, the highly geared warlock would be breaking balance with gigantic numbers of healing. (Even in the current form you can heal well above 4-5x the total hp of the average player in a single hit). In order to be balanced the system must be changed.
The Solution
Paladins are seperated into 2 different Queues currently. Each paragon path dictates which queue they will be into. The same should be applied to warlocks as well. I believe a similar approach would make the transition smooth because with each paragon path we can break down different curse synergy or curse consume effets that would differ for each.
What does that make the new warlock?
Soulbinders would become the Healing path.
Hellbringers would become the DPS path.
So now the queue recognizes warlock soulbinders in the same category as cleric and healadins for party roles. First problem solved. Which brings the second point...
What happens with the feat trees? With Soulbinder being healers, temptation capstone is obselete. Well here's how it would go in this new system (HB refers to Hellbringer and SB to Soulbinder)
HB Fury and Damnation would be DPS, same role as now.
HB Temptation would be a DPS/buffer.
SB Fury and Damnation are now DPS/Healers (More DPS than temptation, less than HB)
SB Temptation becomes a DPS/healer/buffer (Less DPS than Fury and Damn, via their feats and capstones)
Obviously the difference of DPS from HB To SB would have to be big enough to keep them both viable choices. As for protection and healing abilities, it would come off slotting certain encounter powers via their curse consume/synergy effect. HB and SB would have different ones, for their specified roles.
Most of the feat trees would need no change at all except the temptation capstone. This one would become a really desirable buff (And/or Debuff). Mostly if temptation would be relevant will be determined by it's capstone. So it has to be good enough to compete with the other trees.
Ideas and Suggestions for encounter powers with the new changes
Note: The numbers in this section are completely arbitrary. If Cryptic goes forward with any of those ideas they will remodel them in their own way, they are only listed as inspiration generated from my creativity and experience.
Warlock's curse
HB: The target of a lesser or warlock's curse takes 20% damage from the warlock.
SB: Allies striking the target of a warloc's curse heals 5% of their damage dealt on each hit.
Vampiric Embrace
HB: Warlock takes 10% less damage for 6 seconds.
SB: Heals allies 100% of it's damage and the temporary HP granted to the warlock is also granted to allies within 50ft.
Infernal Spheres
I suggest making Infernal Orbs a trigger power. Press to activate and press again to shoot the orbs. You can keep it active as long as you want without firing the spheres.
HB: Applies a lesser curse on every target hit by the orbs.
SB: Shares the defensive bonus to allies in a 50 ft radius while the power is active.
Dreadtheft
HB: The damage reduction debuff part of Dreadtheft remains active for you for 4 seconds after channeling. (This'll give a small window for a burst DPS)
SB: Dreadtheft's self buff for damage reduction also applies to nearby allies 50 ft for it's duration and 4 seconds after.
Fiery Bolt
HB: Deals 35% more damage. Ennemy targets takes 10% more damage from the warlock for 10s.
SB: The damage of this ability heals allies around 50ft for 30% of it's damage.
Harrowstorm
HB: Surging the storm now also applies it's damage to nearby ennemies and deals more damage.
SB: Surging the storm heals allies for 30% of it's damage and halves the target's movement for 6 seconds afterwards.
Curse Bite
HB: If the warlock hits 3 targets with Curse Bite, gain Replenishing curse, it lasts for 10 seconds and increases damage by 5% per rank in curse bite.
SB: If the warlock hits 3 targets with Curse Bite, gain Dark Boon, which increases all outgoing healing by 5% per rank in curse bite for 10 seconds.
Warlock's Bargain
HB: The damage link is shared with your allies. 15% of the damage they take is also redirected to the target of warlock's bargain. - Potentially a lag alert? IDK, seemed cool to me though.
SB: The health steal from this power is shared to your allies 50ft nearby. It also generates a shield on allies equal to 5% of the warlock's max hp per rank, for 20% at r4.
Killing Flames, Wraith Shadow, Arms of Hadar,Soul Scorch and Hadar's grasp coming soon (?) No idea for now as the pwoers seem allright as they are
Special yet important Note:
Soul Sparks would no longer give bonus life steal per spark, instead why not bonus outgoing healing bonus? Just an idea. Another even cooler way to handle bonus outgoing healing (Curse Bite, Soul Sparks) is to instead grant Life Steal severity, and make life steal severity synergize with the healing component of all powers. let's say 120% life steal severity on a power that heals 100% of it's damage (Like Vampiric Embrace) now heals 120% of it's damage to allies, etc.
Snuff out is an underwhelming feat, I think it needs a rework, either granting more sparks per proc or removing it's cooldown. Currently this feat is useless, dreadtheft with decent crit rate will refill your full spark bar, you don't need this feat at all.
Anyways, work in progress, give me your ideas on this part if you got any suggestions that would fit well, and make this class feel more unique.
Go ahead and favorite the thread if you care about SWs and tell me what you think and let's discuss what YOU think is the best way to handle the support warlock situation!
Thanks for reading
Some of you may remember me from last year, as I was very active back then both on the forums and in the game on my warlock. But after a year's break I decided to come back to NW when they announced the SW rebalance in m10.
Presentations aside, this thread aims to look at the Scourge warlock's temptation tree and how the healing/support warlock can be handled for Neverwinter. So let's dive in!
The Problem
Currently, the queue system doesn't recognize a temptation warlock as a healer/support at all. This needs to be adressed. (More later)
The temptation tree is underperforming. It isn't able to fill it's role in a dungeon. There are 3 sub roles to a support player.
1. Healing
2. Protecting
3. Buffing/debuffing
So let's look at how warlocks perform currently...
They can buff/debuff (arguably less than a cleric but do more personal dps to compensate, so i think this is a fine tradeoff.) so this one is OK.
Protection? Compounded soul Feat - occasionnaly give 5% of your max HP to allies. That's about it, so that's a giant Nope.
Healing - Yes, at high gear levels. And that's a problem, because only a highly geared warlock is capable of sustaining a group in raw healing. Why? It's reliant on your life steal stat. The better your life steal stat is, the more you heal. The distance between gear gaps makes this very inconsistant, meaning high geared players will be able to heal players 4-5x their allies full HP bar in one hit, and low geared players aren't able to heal the group effectively.
I believe the end result is that trying to rebalance the current temptation capstone will always fail because of this gap, shifting the numbers will never solve this problem. If we were to increase the healing to make it possible for lower geared players to sustain a group, the highly geared warlock would be breaking balance with gigantic numbers of healing. (Even in the current form you can heal well above 4-5x the total hp of the average player in a single hit). In order to be balanced the system must be changed.
The Solution
Paladins are seperated into 2 different Queues currently. Each paragon path dictates which queue they will be into. The same should be applied to warlocks as well. I believe a similar approach would make the transition smooth because with each paragon path we can break down different curse synergy or curse consume effets that would differ for each.
What does that make the new warlock?
Soulbinders would become the Healing path.
Hellbringers would become the DPS path.
So now the queue recognizes warlock soulbinders in the same category as cleric and healadins for party roles. First problem solved. Which brings the second point...
What happens with the feat trees? With Soulbinder being healers, temptation capstone is obselete. Well here's how it would go in this new system (HB refers to Hellbringer and SB to Soulbinder)
HB Fury and Damnation would be DPS, same role as now.
HB Temptation would be a DPS/buffer.
SB Fury and Damnation are now DPS/Healers (More DPS than temptation, less than HB)
SB Temptation becomes a DPS/healer/buffer (Less DPS than Fury and Damn, via their feats and capstones)
Obviously the difference of DPS from HB To SB would have to be big enough to keep them both viable choices. As for protection and healing abilities, it would come off slotting certain encounter powers via their curse consume/synergy effect. HB and SB would have different ones, for their specified roles.
Most of the feat trees would need no change at all except the temptation capstone. This one would become a really desirable buff (And/or Debuff). Mostly if temptation would be relevant will be determined by it's capstone. So it has to be good enough to compete with the other trees.
Ideas and Suggestions for encounter powers with the new changes
Note: The numbers in this section are completely arbitrary. If Cryptic goes forward with any of those ideas they will remodel them in their own way, they are only listed as inspiration generated from my creativity and experience.
Warlock's curse
HB: The target of a lesser or warlock's curse takes 20% damage from the warlock.
SB: Allies striking the target of a warloc's curse heals 5% of their damage dealt on each hit.
Vampiric Embrace
HB: Warlock takes 10% less damage for 6 seconds.
SB: Heals allies 100% of it's damage and the temporary HP granted to the warlock is also granted to allies within 50ft.
Infernal Spheres
I suggest making Infernal Orbs a trigger power. Press to activate and press again to shoot the orbs. You can keep it active as long as you want without firing the spheres.
HB: Applies a lesser curse on every target hit by the orbs.
SB: Shares the defensive bonus to allies in a 50 ft radius while the power is active.
Dreadtheft
HB: The damage reduction debuff part of Dreadtheft remains active for you for 4 seconds after channeling. (This'll give a small window for a burst DPS)
SB: Dreadtheft's self buff for damage reduction also applies to nearby allies 50 ft for it's duration and 4 seconds after.
Fiery Bolt
HB: Deals 35% more damage. Ennemy targets takes 10% more damage from the warlock for 10s.
SB: The damage of this ability heals allies around 50ft for 30% of it's damage.
Harrowstorm
HB: Surging the storm now also applies it's damage to nearby ennemies and deals more damage.
SB: Surging the storm heals allies for 30% of it's damage and halves the target's movement for 6 seconds afterwards.
Curse Bite
HB: If the warlock hits 3 targets with Curse Bite, gain Replenishing curse, it lasts for 10 seconds and increases damage by 5% per rank in curse bite.
SB: If the warlock hits 3 targets with Curse Bite, gain Dark Boon, which increases all outgoing healing by 5% per rank in curse bite for 10 seconds.
Warlock's Bargain
HB: The damage link is shared with your allies. 15% of the damage they take is also redirected to the target of warlock's bargain. - Potentially a lag alert? IDK, seemed cool to me though.
SB: The health steal from this power is shared to your allies 50ft nearby. It also generates a shield on allies equal to 5% of the warlock's max hp per rank, for 20% at r4.
Killing Flames, Wraith Shadow, Arms of Hadar,Soul Scorch and Hadar's grasp coming soon (?) No idea for now as the pwoers seem allright as they are
Special yet important Note:
Soul Sparks would no longer give bonus life steal per spark, instead why not bonus outgoing healing bonus? Just an idea. Another even cooler way to handle bonus outgoing healing (Curse Bite, Soul Sparks) is to instead grant Life Steal severity, and make life steal severity synergize with the healing component of all powers. let's say 120% life steal severity on a power that heals 100% of it's damage (Like Vampiric Embrace) now heals 120% of it's damage to allies, etc.
Snuff out is an underwhelming feat, I think it needs a rework, either granting more sparks per proc or removing it's cooldown. Currently this feat is useless, dreadtheft with decent crit rate will refill your full spark bar, you don't need this feat at all.
Anyways, work in progress, give me your ideas on this part if you got any suggestions that would fit well, and make this class feel more unique.
Go ahead and favorite the thread if you care about SWs and tell me what you think and let's discuss what YOU think is the best way to handle the support warlock situation!
Thanks for reading
I am the monk, martial skill transcends the battlefield
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
More threads by me / Click on it
My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
More threads by me / Click on it
My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
2
Comments
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
More threads by me / Click on it
My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
More threads by me / Click on it
My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
my Templock is HB and hi is ok with healing (on his 2,2k really I have a lot of healing) but he can't into damage)
nope, you need a good OP or Tank it's all or DD's with 3k if they are going to tanking. If there is no oneshots Templock can heal it.
If you don't wish to see Soulbinders role change, how else would you handle the Temptation warlock situation?
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
More threads by me / Click on it
My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
You want separate SB and HB in different ways as they are now.
Now guys say, HB is more offensive and SB more defensive builds. But thats not all.
HB is more aoe, SB more single target.. HB gate of hell, PoP, is focused for aoe, while SB SS, and IS are for single target,, Immolation souls are Ok against multiple targets, but not as good as against single target..
Next, Hb is more close range, while sb can stay more in range.
Next, you assumption that temptation is good at healing only with high gear is totaly wrong. My build/guide was based on 2.5k Gs, which is good at healing, good at supporting(buff,debuff) and also stay good with dps. And most important that build is not focused on one role. YOu can extend dps, or extend healing, its all up for players what they want to do.
One of funny stuff is that with 2.5k Gs temp I ashamed 3.xk Gs heal DC in term of healing lot of times. So I wonder that do u want more? Also unlike heal DC I still do more dps than him which is good option to party.
Teamp healing comes from life steal. yes, more life steal = more healing, well not really.
Firstly more life steal chance = more time you trigger life stealing factor. But life stealing heal factor is not like DC have.
Life steal Hp restoration depend on damade you done. Thats mean if you hit with encoutner/daily power or whatever, and cause low dps but yet trigger life steal, it will heal by x% of damage dealt in that time.
Or can be even other way,, for example before mod 10 I where fury HB, and with Killing flame I restores 100% of my SW HP. Why? all because of high dps.
Now life steal also have severity, so this one also included in Hp restoration calculations.
So to assume that only life steal is important is wrong. To be fair, 4.5k or 5k life steal is more than enough. Thats included if you use prince of hell and dark ones blessing class features.. To have more life steal is simple pointless. Even you have 60% chance life steal, but have low dps itself, your healing will not be great.
With same 2.5k Gs temp HB Before obtaining epic mount to boos up life steal rates, I had 3k life steal, and decent dps rates. So my healing where Ok, but there is one trick with life steal.
Take any dragon glyph, red/gree/blue whatever, only matter to have DoT effect. So when you hit enemy/enemies, you apply Dot, and with every DoT moment you trigger life steal, which convert to healing. More enemies hit you, more Heal over time you get. Now add hellish rebuke to one, or two, or more than 3 targets., And you have screen full of healing numbers. And they heal not only you, but all allies who are near you.. Such continuous healing make sad any heal DC...
now other current sutff with temptation. vampiric embrace.
lot of guys dissmis this encounter, and claim that its HAMSTER.. Dps wise yes, healing wise is great.
Now you hit enemy, dps converted to HP restoration based by damage you done. Due soul bonding 100% of done damage heal allies. Nothing special yes? But now add life stealing, which add extra healing.
During epic dungeon runs with Vampiric embrace I could with 1 hit restora all parties HP to max. Do u want more? Now take this sutff in larger group.
Couple times I where in group who farmed Bryn shander major He's.
There where not 10. neither 20, but more less 40++ players group. At first we had 3 heal Dc, after couple runs, remined 1 heal DC, after extra some runs, there where none. Only my temptation alone healed them all. And it was not hard to keep them all alive. it was only requirement for me to stay in center of group, so my heal area will cover most of them.
On top I buffed them with dark reverly, and debufed enemies with aura of despair. What else you want?
You suggestion to rework warlocks in HB - dps, and SB in Heal would more less kill reason to play as temptation warlock..
Firstly you boost healing, Ok, but then give up current mid/high dps. Thats mean why party should pick temp if they better pick heal DC.... Only current temptation capability stay with mid/high dps and also stay as supporter makes worth to keep temp in party.
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
A temptation warlock has little more to offer in terms of buffing next to a fury or Damnation that splashed 3 points into temp for dark Revelry. So the nicest feat in temptation (IMO) any path can take it by splashing 3 feats into it.
As for healing, I've never been able to sustain a group in Castle Never with a 2.7k warlock (My alts). T1s are simple enough and alot of groups don't need a healer at all, only a tank. So I'm interested to see which dungeon you managed to support without another player dedicated to that role helping you. If you can show me your temptation warlock succesfully supporting an average party pug (2.5k-3k) trough CN without a DC or paladin I will revert this post as there would be clearly no problem with the class. (Except the queue recognizing templocks as a support).
Be that as it may, the support warlock needs more protection to be succesful at supporting harder dungeons. I doubt you'd ever see a SW solo support harder content because of the 1 shot mechanics that are present in the current end game we have. That is why I believe healing alone is not enough on itself to be a successful support role.
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
More threads by me / Click on it
My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
I honestly have no idea, I think all 3 feat paths are pretty unbalanced atm, 9/10 fury with maybe some feat points from some of the other paths is the optimal way to go based on if you want to dps or support, to really make temptation a good healer for all GSs they need to seriously buff temp's healing feats or redo lifesteal, preferably the second, but that will probably never happen.
And they did, it took them until m10 to do so but they mostly fixed the class. So here I am, I did come back for it and been playing since m10 was released. Many of the bugs I had previously reported were corrected, problems within certfain features and feats being too weak or underperforming were adressed.
It would be wrong to expect an immediate change, but in the longer term if we voice our opinions and point out those flaws I believe they will be addressed in time.
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
More threads by me / Click on it
My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
Mitigation is missing in the temptation tree I agree. A 20% damage debuff in case you take hellish condemnation, aura of despair and darkness, wich affords to stand near that boss and run BoVa all time and the 20% debuff for 8 seconds from your laserbeam is not enough.
If you take a look at the DC a warlock can´t compete in terms of mitigation and he will have severe issue to run the first two bosses in FBI if his party stands in the red area and doesn´t avoid damage actively, I am sure this only will work with skilled player and a GF running KV.
But apart from that Templocks provides big heals and can do crazy numbers --> Tiamat.....only the onehit thing is problematic as you said.
I read that the devs already have bigger plans with temptationtree in the future, they definitely said so .... only a question of time.
DC´s power:
Hollowed groud = +30% DR
Exaltation 25% DR, + 25% in devine mode (if I remeber correctly)
BoB = 8% Damagereduction
Devine GLow = 17,5% DR
Astral shield 40% DR
Breaking the spirit = 40% damagedebuff (the double a warlock can provide all together, lol)
Annoited army...huge buff, you can survive million hits as a tank.
Warding flare...direct absorption, noone uses it, so no clue
The feats are all about healing etc, the only feat is have faith wich spends 5% DR.
Thanks for your input
I couldn't think of another way to balance everything out other than the one i presented above tbh. Reworking the last row of feats of temptation perhaps.
Another route cryptic could go is remove the healing of temptation completely and replace with dps buffs. That would remove flavor from the class but would be an easy way out without reworking the class as a whole
Honestly i hope they dont take the easy way out and give us something similar to what i suggested
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
More threads by me / Click on it
My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
Seriously for my 3rd time ever in CN, mainting a low level party (2.3/2.8k and one 3.3k) alive with my lonely 2.5K hellbringer templock wasn't hard. Only for the Illilich and Orcus did VE was mandatory. (I admit every party member managed their job well.)
Your suggestions are interesting and would be good if following supposition were true
- The quantity of healing is a problem
- The HellBringer is more dps oriented than SoulBinder (I know it is quite confusing as even the Parangon description is stating the contrary)
As far as I've tested (more than 4 weeks of preview testing before mod10 and playing since release), there is only one global problem 'the "quality" of healing' and one specific problem 'the low self healing/protection' especially for low levels.Before detailing the 2 problems, I think there is a misunderstanding in some previous posts (maybe my misunderstanding (english isn't my native language)) around the current Temptation Capstone:
>> The party heals are provided each time the SW do damage NOT each time the LifeSteal% chance work
>> The party heals amount = Damage * LifeSteal% chance
Remark: for party heal AoE damage converted to heal is reduced to 30% (then don't use them in single targets fights)
>> The self heals are provided when LifeSteal% chance work and amount to = damage * LifeStealSeverity
Remark: Some multi-hit powers like HarrowStorm make self heals work for every or for none of their hits
QUALITY vs QUANTITY
Being able to refill your party HP in one shot look great, but it can't prevent a party sweep if you have to wait 15 seconds before each refill. That's why SB with it's very powerfull single target powers with variably long reload time is way more dangerous than HB with it's constant DoT providing a nearly continous flow of heals.
Additionaly to the quantity distribution over time, there is the utility of heals. Heals are needed in 2 situations
- When foes are dying more slowly than your party --> The "continuous" healing.
- When one or more of the party member take fast and big hits --> The "urgent" healing.
Temptation healing provide continuous healing (too mutch at high level) and not enough of urgent healing.As it's not realistic to keep one big power unused in case something goes wrong (especially for Hellbringer which already need an encounter slot for PoP). Then currently the only practical way is to use tempoary hitpoints powers (VE encounter and CompoundedSoul) as a preventive measure for urgent healing.
LOW SELF HEALING/PROTECTING
If you could not start to understand why a healer could not heal himself at least as much as he is healing the others, here is the historical explaination:
CONCLUSION
Actually Hellbringer Temptation work quite well. If there are suggestion to make, those should concentrate on increasing the quality of healing and for increasing self healing/protecting.
For quality I can suggest that the Temptation Capstone heals are reduced inversly proportional to the player level/IL, but a portion of overheals are converted into shared tempoary hit points. A danger is that it can make Soulbinder better in every way than Hellbringer, therefore a mean to limit the tempoary hit points may be needed (the higher the hit points are present the lower the portion is added AND/OR those tempoary hit points descrease over time).
(EDITION: My messages are now visible! I was wondering why everyone ignored me so hard...)
Sure it´s possible, but most time I get into random groups and it is hard to get through that dungeon without adaequat mitigation at those bossfights, esp the first two because most player esp melle classes stand inside that aoe all time. The DC chains his Annoited army, using Devine Glow+ breaking the spirit+ chains or anything else.
1. Annoited Army: Perma cc immunity on top of a huge DR buff plus a power buff , wich rebounces from companions towards the owner with the factor x 2,85 leading to >150k power at higher levels assisted by WoL and battle fervor 25% powerbuff
2. On top Breaking the spirit 40% damage plus, 40% damage debuff to the target
3. 17,5% DR buff from Devine Glow+17,5% DR debuff
4. AP gain by using gift of haste
5. encounter reset from hastening light
6. bear your sins and comdemning gaze provides another 25% more damage from all sources ( debuffs )
...tbh, if you want to get a temptationlock competetive against this the class/tree needs a very big rework or the DC class has to be balanced and buffs have to be more in line, 40% debuff, 40% damagebuff, powerbuff >100k, debuffs wich spend all together using a plaguefire on top a 50% DR debuff and boosting effectiveness of the hole group. This is not to beat.
HB temp can spend dark revelry+healing+ 20% DR debuffs from DT (8 sec. lasting) + pop (24%/12% damagebuff, and a 12% debuff), maybe I forgot some points, that´s what HB -fury can do and spend infernal wrath on top. Who needs a templock, wich provides the same buffs adn deals >50% less damage?
I think temptation should get a damageboost and stay dps maybe 1/3 less than fury, because fury is too far away by dealing more than the double. If not, templocks will allways stay outside, spending low dps and moderat buffs every hunter can cover by slotting longstrider shot and fox cunnings.
Building a real supporter/heal is possible but to be competetive you need pretty heavy buffs.
Temptation is mixture of buff, debuffs, and healing.. Don't forget all these comes from feats. DC is supporter class by nature. Even if you make dps focused, you still having healing powers.
Next, you need spent 15 points not 3 in order to have Dark revelry at rank 5. So next time check information or be more carefull when writing claims.
So more less either your Sw is outdated, gear, mount, companion wise.
As for SB temp, well with it are some different gameplay, but in the end Sb temp can cause more dps.
As single supporter I leaded tons of parties. CN, eCC, eSoT, eToS, VT, MC,. More less all dungeons have manage to clear with temp HB as single support class.
My one of best achievement where, when I leaded random/premade party in eToS dungeon, Non of members where higher than 2.6k gs. My companion and I tanked all dungeon to the end, And only one gwf in party stepped in front couple times to give me moment to recover Hp. In other words, I healed, buffed, debuffed and dealed damage.
Also where in party when we completed CN without tank. Group of Hr and my Temp HP. And again my companion and me tanked, healed, buffed, and debuffed + dps.
I would like to do video where I doing this stuff. But as you can see in my signature, I am in vacation. Due work, I had to relocate in other country. So for month I have limited internet and also current laptop is too old to run any games... it had hard time to keep win xp :P But once I back, I definattly gona record some my runs with my temp HB.
Queue work fine. For example There are DPs build dc. So what, queue should pop up box on screen with question, are you healer?
Sw primary role is dps by nature. Via paragon path and build trees we slightly change it.
DragonFlight, major He's in any areas, all tear 2 dungeons, excluding new mod 10 dungeon,(still don't have required GS.) But more less there is no content which I haven't tested as single supporter. I even been single healer during n/edemo. Which where totally craizy one,, We had 2 other dc in party, but one where dps and other buff/debuff build. So more less HAMSTER healing factor.. And I had to keep all them alive...
Now to be fair, yea SB temp need some changes,, but not dramatic as you suggest.. From development side it require more time, more money and other stuffs to do.
From players side, u kill reason to play with warlock at all. SB become DC imitation, so more less no one even keep SW in party.. Who need DC copy, if you can get real DC....
Ok and now I will explain why my warlock is good..
All comes from encounters combo.
BoVa + PoP + x
x = depending on situation.
I can go with fiery bolt for dps,
I can go with arm of hadar for aoe CC + dps.
I can go with hadar grasp for single target CC + debuff + dps.
I can go with KF, WB for strong single target dps.
I can go with vampiric embrace for extra healing.
Now PoP (pillar of Power) is one of main reason why I like temptation HB.
Not only I get buffs from this power, but any allies who step in get their damage buffed, and if enemies enter its effect area got debufed.
SB don't have it, but instead you have SS encounter which is strong single target dps.
BoVa - itself it provide 20% chance deflect. Which is nice, but also due Darknes feat you reduce enemies outgoing damage when they got damaged with Bova. Now on top add PoP which buff Bova damage, and debuff enemies.
On top add aura of despair which reduce enemies outgoing damage when they are in your aura effect area.
So more less such debuff + buff combo already is strong for warlock, and PoP + aura of despair effect is wery good for allies/party members.
Sure you can go as DC which buff your damage resist stats, but you can go as debuffer to reduce enemies outgoing damage.. Unlike DC warlock's aura of despair do not require anything to do. Enough for enemies/monsters get in warlock area and they got debuffed.
And now also count that PoP + BoVa is aoe encounters with time duration. Thats mean enemies in area keep receiving damage, which trigger life steal and which trigger healing...
So its sad that you can't heal good enough with own temptation warlock.. But thats not mean other can't do it.
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
I can run every dungeon except FBI with my GF using Knights Valor and protect the hole party from getting killed, all they need is a decent lifesteal. No healing needed there, only buffs, it´s all about gear.
At lower levels you need that healing desperately and weaker parties benefit from a Templock.
A DC in FBI doesn´t heal much he only buffs and debuffs and so on. If you get hit from a giant or bear, you are dead 100%, no 700k critheal will help against this, only a buff like AA etc.
A warlock outheals a DC, fine, that´s completely irrelevant. The majotity of DC run buffer builds, not a single healing feat is spend into those builds.
In case you meet a faithful DC having shared burdon, united by faith and chaplians strenght and focussed on heals you will feel the difference. This DC can dish out huge numbers, but that build is not wanted atm. He can run Tiamat, dragons and edemo and give you a tight battle about the healingcrown, but doing so he will also spend tons of mitigation, and buffs on top.
A templock need dps wich makes him compareable to other dps classes with a dps/supporter role. The temptree needs a buff in tier 4/5 i think, that´s the easy way to get things in line again.
There are guys with top end gear set who wipe eToS without problems, and without any assitance. So yea, if you can do that with GF, well gz, but its not something special. GWF, TR, Hr do that too.
Well what you know, aura of cruelity gives 5% chance life steal..
Well if you pick buff/debuff build DC, do u expect they will heal in same degree as heal DC? They do what they where build for. They buff and debuff. And as I wronte in my older post, DC from start is support class, regardless if you choose dps, buff/debuff build, you still will have bastion of life, divine glow, righ mouse button in divine mode heal.
I am familar with heal DC, because I have heal DC too.
If that DC with shared burdon can outheal my undergeared templock, then Ok, Its not like I focus on healing only, neither I insisting to keep "healer Crown". even without healing I am not without options, I can go CC, I can go mid range Dps(as all supporters) can buff/debuff without even doing anything, and still without doing anything heal a lot.
Unlike DC, I don't have to focus on healing. Due temptation nature, i heal even I am focused on dps/CC.
Need more dps for templock? My friend, support is class which have mid range dps, because othetwise no one would pick other class,, they all would go to class which have high dps + buffs which extend dps even more.. I don't know any game where support class having dps on pair with strikers(damage dealers) class.
Also I remind that temptation warlock is mixture of buffs, debuffs and heals. heal DC have more feats for healing, buff/debuff DC have feats for buffs/debuffs. Templock in such limitation I consider OK.
And plus on top, due warlock nature as striker templock have decent dps, not highest ones because it don't have lot of feats to boost own damage as fury, but still fair enough.
AS for temptation tree feats, some are outdated for sure. The one which by chance restore part of AP. In old mod 4 and
mod 5 it would be OK, but now Ap regenerates fast enough even without this feat. But more less with current warlock desing its have kinda normal tree.
Now one thing in final lines... hellbringer have Pillar of power and this is one of key why my templock is good. Not only I buff party with Pillar of power but debuff enemies. Soulbinder is one who have SS, which provide nice dps, but he lack PoP provided buffs/debuffs. So it can't assist to party as much as HB can. Also Sb don't have hellish rebuke at will, which apply DoT which gives continious chance life steal, which convert to chance enable dark reverly buff..
To be fair, once my templock start hitting enemies, till the battle ends I keep DR up for 88% of all fights time.
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@denvald
you want rebuild/rework warlock class.. OK, I get it. But remember there are couple ways to rework class.
1) minimal through slight augmenting current powers.
2) reworking feats
3) rebuilding class from scrach, thats mean you throw away all current stuffs out, and write all stuff on blank/clean page. But this would take more time in development also testing will require.
My suggestion would be instead breaking SW in support paragon and dps paragon, rework only feats.
Thats mean write your ideas around feats, and using current encounters/dailypowers/class features/at wills. Because if you add healing factor in dps encounters, you would kill reason to take temptation tree, all would take fury, have high dps and decent healing.....
When i get time I will check around,, somewhere i had written my old ideas about warlock rework
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
@bloodyspamer
When you get around to a new computer I'd be interested in seeing your runs of CN.
I also do think that boosting few feats in the last rows of temptation would likely be a problem solver. Ideally if they were to do that I'd see them add more buffs and debuffs to the tree that makes it more desirable in groups, or make them more effective.
p.n. i do play HB temp on my alt.
@schietindebux
I still haven't gotten around to do FBI myself on my main so your feedback on that topic is definitly appreciated
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
More threads by me / Click on it
My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
1. tank: GF or OP... I prefer GF
2. dps: GWF, warlock, CW , TR ...hm from minor importance wich class to pick, their damage depends on buffs to a very big percentage
3. heal/support: DC, OP, templock... i gonna run with that DC since a templock will make that run last 60 min instead of 30min.
My GF can heal up in one seconds, heal crits from 100.000 to 300.000k are no problem using fighters recovery and some lifesteal, maybe that epic bearcup on top and done. I can dose and time my selfheal like I wish, all I need is some mitigation normally to prevent those giants from onehitting me if I fail to block or step in this bugged AoE getting proned.
In case that templock could act like a striker I may take him in my group , maybe even if he deals 1/3 less than fury .. but only if he provides buffs to my group a fury can´t bring in. Sadly he can´t speed up that run, no he slows it down dealing less than half of furys damage and that furylock buffs the same and also can debuff with infernal wrath, so byby templock.
If, some day that DC is getting nerfed into the abyss, or selfheal is getting completely nerfed into the ground a templock may be my friend again and his heals may be welcome again
Until than a temptaionlock will be welcome in every random low IL party, but above 3k+ will sit outside the dungeon.
I like this party making game.... But here is trick. Firstly, if you gona do most common AD dungeons KR, then you do not require tank, enough to have 3k+ gs party. HR can take dungeon solo fastly, CW can do same, gwf can do probably without even looking to pc screen... All depends on guilds boons, companions, mounts and insignias..
So here is my party.
1) tank - gwf, gf, op,< any of them. Only one thing is matter, and it's > Paper tank is not welcome< who need tank who die in seconds...? In such situation I rather pick tank type companion...
2) dps - Hr, gwf, cw, tr, sw. Op, gf, DC(dps build) - only one stuff matter,> Hot headed suckers are not welcome. < Dungeon is run by party, not guy who try get highest paingiver/executioner scores....
3) healer - thats tricky. Lots depend on party itself.
Sw - if party is more less OK, and do not require neverending burst like healing due papar tank, glasscannon builded strikers who die after 2 slaps..
Also if party more in mixture of long and close range strikers...
Heal DC - if party is more close range focused build, and you can all time keep them alive via divine glow + bastion of health + other heal/buff power...
Buff/debuff DC - if party good enough and do not require any healing..
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@denvald
In my work, I was thinking,, why do not add extra buff, debuffs with aura like mechanic.. I mean use same as aura of despair/cruelity. as paladins auras. It's make temptation more desired in large group runs. It remains unique in own way, and it would not become DC copy.
But before we do that, we need get some space for changes...
So why don't we merge some current feats in one.. For example, Aura of despair and aura of cruelity blend in 1 aura. Which would buff and debuff as it does now separated.. Some others can be combined too, so not only we keep current ones up, but also make room for other feats.. Also some current feats can be reworked too..
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
what i would like to see for an support SW is all the debuffs and curses should count for the Party too. That might bring suport sw back to relevance
Thanks for your input, i especially like how you described quality vs quantity healing. Yes I've faced the problem of saving VE or KR just in for big damage bursts that requires urgent healing, further lowering my dps.
@tom
If templock had more interesting buffs that are desirable and fury cannot access I'd think this is a winning situation.
@bloodyspamer
I think merging feats and making space for new ones in the last rows of temptation is a great idea.
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
More threads by me / Click on it
My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
imgur.com/a/6LLUm
Xbox GT -- Mr Shabok
My Guide
And I can guess that now some guys will start asking you to write build/guide here in forum
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
Xbox GT -- Mr Shabok
My Guide
I don't mind if someone take my build, adjust/change it and use it.. This all build is more focused on new sw players/undergeared. Also one of reasons where, because last my known temptation sw build are way outdated.. And major reason was to remind neverwinter community that DC or OP are not only ones who can heal..
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
Very impressive feat
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
More threads by me / Click on it
My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
Xbox GT -- Mr Shabok
My Guide
I think when comes large group healing farming, like bryn shanders major He's, tiamat or e/nDemo templocks are necessary, due its debuff/buff effects and healing range. But when comes 5 players(usual) party, DC and OP can still put big competition to templocks.
As for dps, templock is unique due fact I still outdps heal DC.
TT rework to TC took 70% of its possible damage output , now reduction keep going.. All just to promote that warlocks use other daily powers, and don't make look that time spent for them where for nothing.. I think devs willing go to point to kill that daily power, or nerf to point it would be on pair with at will powers...
Personally with templock I use TC only if party do not require extra assitance by CC, or do not require much of healing.
p.s I notice that posting in forum become hard.. U write post, click comment, and u wait for approval from staff/moderators. And they decide to let comment appear or not.. Its kidna first forum I ever encounter which have such censoship....
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
Do you think an average templock has the ability to support a group trough a high tier dungeon like CN successfully?
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
More threads by me / Click on it
My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
The only problem is the complexity of Templock class : SW is already the most complex class and Templock is the most complex of the 3 parangon (due to team management).
But its complexity is rewarding, you can make up for lacking groups
- A group can lack aggro management, therefore CC are priority with mobility.
- A group can lack dps, therfore damaging and buffing/debuffing is a priority.
- A group can lack tanking, therfore tempoary HP are priority with DR buff, then heal and someone to absorb/dodge some hits.
A Templock can provide all of that. More, it can do it all (nearly) at the same time.As a conclusion, you can see Templock as an all-purpose support class, but as it's complex the player behind has to be able to manage that complexity.
Remark: a good group doesn't need supporter class at all (no tank, no heal, no bard).