PvP Solo and Dual queue tests - what did you learn?

kvet

@panderus @asterdahl @terramak @mimicking#6533

What did is data telling you about PvP after the solo and dual queue tests? I'm sure this post will draw lots of opinions - but these test were all about data, so-- anything you're willing to share?

What was the nature of the data you collect?
What were you hypotheses going into this?
Were they confirmed?

I won't ask what plans will be informed by these tests, I don't imagine that question will be answered - but I'm keen to learn more about the process you're going through, whether you're actually getting the data you want, and whether you're (so far) happy with the results. I don't mean happy with how this are... I mean, are you feeling satisfied that the tests are providing you with actionable information?

More importantly: Is there anything we can do as players to help you along with this process?

plavia

in my feeling duo is harder then solo
its semi prebuild and if 2 top players against you it hard to survive few sec.
in a away its showl you the gap of equip, boons etc.

demonmonger

Testing minimum.and maximum damage given by players within certain gear score brackets.

Testing amount of time players stays in combat mode before death if death ever happens.

Testing enchantments opness

Testing enchantment usage frequency
(Some enchantments are not used at all and are under performing)

Testing which classes die to others classes and at what frequency.

Testing damage reduction and critical severity reduction vs non critical hits.

Testing mount bonus plus insignia bonus in combat.

Testing how many people that stopped doing pvp would return just because you asked us to test

panderus

Well it just ended yesterday so we have to pull the data logs and sift through it first. I would be inclined to tell you what we are looking for but that could be a self fulfilling prophecy, of course even this could be one... ARG!

tldr; nothing to share yet, but thanks for the enthusiasm.

ayroux

@panderus please read my post about how to fix PVP. If you guys are looking into how to fix it, and entertaining ideas of a perm solo Q or duo Q. I believe this has more to offer the PVP community than either of those:
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1223273/the-real-issue-with-pvp-and-what-cryptic-can-do-to-fix-it-it-isnt-premades

If you would like, you can even do a short event LIKE the solo Q where you make it a few days long called "Vanilla Que" just TRY it and see what happens, see what the response is.

kvet

Hey panderus, thanks for the reply I figured it would take a few so was just getting a jump on the question is all!

I get that you're still doing analysis, but I really am curious what you are looking for. For example, what will constitute a successful test? Did you consider the solo test a success? Why? Were there any lessons learned from the solo test? What are you expecting / hoping from the duo test?

(Among other things, I've spent years devising and running multivariate tests on software of all sorts - so it's a topic near and dear to me )

ilmenira

hmmm... great that @panderus commented!

just to repeat this here SOLO queue was helpful, my guess is:
a) because NO coordination on BOTH teams >>> team speak coordination on one side makes a huge difference... every player instantly gets the number of players on his team multiplicated by 2 eyes... and instant planning together
b) because no amassment of BIS players on one side, though that still happened sometimes

DUO by far less helpful... and queues took longer towards the end... could be that there were less players attracted by it.

the first step to improve pvp with something already at hand -- the SOLO queue -- is obvious and proven.

fuxion

@Panderus The mighty

Bring back the solo queue system please asap !!!

jonkoca

Well, off the top of my head, soloQ felt a lot more evenly balanced than duo, this week's matches pretty much seemed like business as usual - comparable to the normal Q in fact.

Most matches I participated in, mainly queuing alone, ended up as either us stomping them, or us being stomped. 90% of matches ending quickly with gg, and capping for points. One team of badly geared players even kicked my mid-level geared TR alt for daring to fight on after they'd all given up about 30 seconds into the match. Go figure.

So, duoQ no, soloQ yes.

sweatapodimas

Solo queue was infinitely more fun than Duo queue IMO, especially when trying out builds/alts.

I loved it, and had fun without the pervasive sense of anger and bipolar-induced delusion surrounding me

More "good-sports"

wikingwingss

DUO: I don't like (Similar a 5 v 5)

SOLO: I like it

schietindebux

nothing, I did not take part

ionvnegativo

1) The problem with solo queue was about having a lot of ppl with zero tenacy, i farmed a lot o kills cuz that, so as is suggested in other threads, make tenacy a minimun requirement, or better, put tenacy as a default stat for everyone, the pvp gear retain the buff/bonus for 2/2 set or 3/3 pieces but tenacy as stat gets removed from pvp gear.

2) An obligatory pvp tutorial the first time a player gets in pvp would be great, so ppl understand that they have to stay inside a node in order to cap it, a lot of ppl in the event just fought outside the node.

3) Remove/fix/nerf/lower/delete piercing damage from TRs and HRs, compensate with something else but not piercing.

4) there are too much healing, feats, boons, insignias, weapons, artifacts, etc.

wdj40

kvet said:

@panderus @asterdahl @terramak @mimicking#6533

What did is data telling you about PvP after the solo and dual queue tests? I'm sure this post will draw lots of opinions - but these test were all about data, so-- anything you're willing to share?

What was the nature of the data you collect?
What were you hypotheses going into this?
Were they confirmed?

I won't ask what plans will be informed by these tests, I don't imagine that question will be answered - but I'm keen to learn more about the process you're going through, whether you're actually getting the data you want, and whether you're (so far) happy with the results. I don't mean happy with how this are... I mean, are you feeling satisfied that the tests are providing you with actionable information?

More importantly: Is there anything we can do as players to help you along with this process?

Tell you one thing they should have learned from these tests... BRING SOLO QUEUE TO NEVERWINTER PERMINANTLY FOR ALL PLATFORMS FOR PVP AND PVE!!!!!!

There how easy is that to make a lot of people happy.

kaudilho

ionvnegativo said:

1) The problem with solo queue was about having a lot of ppl with zero tenacy, i farmed a lot o kills cuz that, so as is suggested in other threads, make tenacy a minimun requirement, or better, put tenacy as a default stat for everyone, the pvp gear retain the buff/bonus for 2/2 set or 3/3 pieces but tenacy as stat gets removed from pvp gear.

2) An obligatory pvp tutorial the first time a player gets in pvp would be great, so ppl understand that they have to stay inside a node in order to cap it, a lot of ppl in the event just fought outside the node.

3) Remove/fix/nerf/lower/delete piercing damage from TRs and HRs, compensate with something else but not piercing.

4) there are too much healing, feats, boons, insignias, weapons, artifacts, etc.

+1 for all topics.

jonkoca

I'd delighted if they removed piercing from HRs and doubled our base damage to compensate in pvp. Of course, immediately trapper crit HRs would dominate the paingiver in Pve.... forever. Why'd you think they gave us piercing in the first place..?

santralafax

ionvnegativo said:

1) The problem with solo queue was about having a lot of ppl with zero tenacy, i farmed a lot o kills cuz that, so as is suggested in other threads, make tenacy a minimun requirement, or better, put tenacy as a default stat for everyone, the pvp gear retain the buff/bonus for 2/2 set or 3/3 pieces but tenacy as stat gets removed from pvp gear.

2) An obligatory pvp tutorial the first time a player gets in pvp would be great, so ppl understand that they have to stay inside a node in order to cap it, a lot of ppl in the event just fought outside the node.

3) Remove/fix/nerf/lower/delete piercing damage from TRs and HRs, compensate with something else but not piercing.

4) there are too much healing, feats, boons, insignias, weapons, artifacts, etc.

If 3 is a given, then I agree with 4.

ayroux

ionvnegativo said:

1) The problem with solo queue was about having a lot of ppl with zero tenacy, i farmed a lot o kills cuz that, so as is suggested in other threads, make tenacy a minimun requirement, or better, put tenacy as a default stat for everyone, the pvp gear retain the buff/bonus for 2/2 set or 3/3 pieces but tenacy as stat gets removed from pvp gear.

2) An obligatory pvp tutorial the first time a player gets in pvp would be great, so ppl understand that they have to stay inside a node in order to cap it, a lot of ppl in the event just fought outside the node.

3) Remove/fix/nerf/lower/delete piercing damage from TRs and HRs, compensate with something else but not piercing.

4) there are too much healing, feats, boons, insignias, weapons, artifacts, etc.

@ionvnegativo I agree with nearly everything you said here. You have laid out 4 "issues" or "problems" and I see only 2 real solutions.

1) SOLUTION:

ionvnegativo said:

make tenacy a minimun requirement, or better, put tenacy as a default stat for everyone"

So this is straight forward and I agree. Tenacity should be removed from gear and applied as a base to players instead allowing you to use ANY gear for PVP. I understand this solution.

2) SOLUTION:

ionvnegativo said:

An obligatory pvp tutorial

This makes sense too! Many players dont understand how to win in domination or WORSE, they think that just having a high "score" means they did good, when in reality its defending and HOLDING a node that wins, not just cap swapping. So this makes sense too!

3) IDEA:

ionvnegativo said:

Remove/fix/nerf/lower/delete piercing damage from TRs and HRs

How do you propose doing this? Piercing Blades and SE are the two main culprits no? So what is your proposal for those?

4) IDEA:

ionvnegativo said:

too much healing, feats, boons, insignias, weapons, artifacts, etc.

Again, I 110% agree here, however what is your solution? I have laid out mine above and linked the thread, you can scroll up if you care to read, I am curious what you the think best solution is here though. How do you remove/eliminate/reduce self healing from all the feats/boons/etc.

ionvnegativo

hey @ayroux

about 3)

3) HR, i dont play one, so i cant really talk about HRs since i dont know feats from this class, but as many ppl reported and i experienced myself, the high base damage on plant growth is what tics for like 10k-20k piercing 3 or 4 times if you get caught. Other than that, the rest of melee piercing from other encounters seems low and hits not that hard, so as i said i dont really know HR mechanics and abilities to speak loud about it, but a little change in plant growth could be a good start to look at without removing piercing completely from HR.

TR. TRs have 4 sources of piercing: SE, oppressive darkness, shadowy opportunity and shadow of demise. From all of them, only SE combined with certain builds is broken since one shot ppl is the issue here, other than that, the other piercing damage is pretty low.

-SE hits for 60k to 200k. Less in a scoundrel since that path doesnt have an specific buff for SE.
-opressive darkness for 790 in 1 hit, and around 8k in a full duelist flurry while combat advantage is active.
-Shadowy opportunity for like 1600 more or less.
-SoD depends on the damage dealt, but applied in a rotation against a properly geared player is about 20k-30k considering a rogue with 20k power and 12k ArmP.

This clearly shows that only SE is gamebreking and needs the fix. Ive been thinking in several ways it can be changed, since SE would have a tone down TRs will need a compensation for that damaging power.

-As most ppl said in some threads, SE should be a finishing move, so it could be piercing when enemy has less HP than a fixed threshold like 20% HP or something and mitigable above that.

-Or mitigable, but when enemy is less tha X% HP, SE deals 100% unmitigable damage equal of X% of TR's power(stat).

That could remove the one shot builds from both, sabo and exe.

Next point once SE is nerfed, would be about giving TRs a damage increase in atwills/encounters.

- I dont really know if a base damage increase in all powers would really work, assuming TRs stack Armp, but this could be a first step.
- The damage buffs TRs have from feats, could be changed in the way they work:
Right now, feats in the exe path for example, like deathknell and last moments activates once the enemy is less than a certain HP threshold, once that player heals up, the buff immediately dissapears which means TR lose like 25% damage from each of that buff, a way to change that so TR retain the buff, is making that buff last for lets say 5 or 10secs (no stackable and expires when the timer is over until conditions trigger again).

The same with scoundrel path where buffs like low blows and skullcracker actives only when enemy is under a control effect and dissapears when the cc is over(cc too short cuz elven battle), again making the buff last some secs and putting a cd on it, would make the TR to keep the damage buff for a little longer.

The above is more or less what happens with GWF stacks, those stacks last some time so the GWF dont loose inmediately the buff.

-TRs have some powers that deal zero damage as bait and switch, lurker assault, ITC(smoke bomb was one before the rework in mod4), or others like shadow strike that deals very little damage. Giving those powers some damage like the poison SB has could be a damage compensation.

-The other problem with TRs are cooldowns, with zero recovery, lashing blade has 24secs cd, and stacking recovery lets say 5k, most powers have like 12 to 15 secs cd....Now, assuming TRs will stack Power-ArmP to deal more damage from encounters, Recovery is out of the equation, this means TRs could have damaging encounter powers but with long cds. Maybe all the cooldowns need a review in order to make power-armp builds viable.

-For executioner path, if damage is increased, Shadow of demise maybe would need a look since it could deal more damage, taking always in consideration not hurting pve.

Basically the idea in general would be:
not allow SE being a 1 shot power,base damage increase, make TR damage buffs from feats to last longer(but not forever) and lower the cooldowns.

This damage increase will mean a TR could kill faster so the defensive mechanics TRs have like deflect severity would need a nerf so enemy classes have a chance to kill the TR as well, TRs have 4 dodges if managed properly, and elven battle is almost a permadodge(dont really gonna talk about elven b. since is affordable for anyone), endless stamina regen must be review from all classes, ppl is immortal with permadodge and permablock and TRs benefit a lot from that extra stamina.

AP gain may need a nerf too, so perma CB do not becomes an issue after SE nerf, but since recovery would be changed for Armp, AP may is ok.

4) Lol man this post is to long already , this is a difficult one, as soon as i have some time ill read your post.

PD: English is not my main, so my apologies from any misunderstanding caused by writting this reply.

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deterrant

Lets make all classes burst dps freaks with the same survivability and voila, there we are.

Oh, we have unique class mechanics, mount powers, etc. Well, lets get rid of them to be safe.

Sht, we have 3 different feat trees, well, lets scrap the 2 and make everybody roll pure dps.

Dang, wait, we have PVE too, well, lets make the mobs hit less and give them more HP, that should do it.

To kill press q-e-r and repeat if necessary(scrap that, burst was already implemented) results may vary due to:

- player ping
- dodges (scrap that, too complicated, note: remove doges, shifts etc...)
- the timing of key execution(may have to change this too, maybe to 1 key for all powers...).

You either survive or die. Gaming made Easy.

Were now offically balanced.

roleplayingtv

soloQ is the best option.
DOMINATION option
1- soloQ (random mode)
2- Premades (5 vs 5)

sweatapodimas

roleplayingtv said:

soloQ is the best option.
DOMINATION option
1- soloQ (random mode)
2- Premades (5 vs 5)

+1

This seems to be the most popular option. Hoping to get back to it (pvp) soon. Come on Devs!!! yeeehaw

kvet

So, @panderus - I'm still interested to hear what you've learned from your tests. It's been several weeks, I think you've have plenty of time to study the data...

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santralafax

I'm with soloqueue.

sweatapodimas

xsayajinx1 said:

I smell the same handling of the whole solo / duo Q event like they handled NCL.

Expect the next event in about ... wait, there was no 2nd NCL... uhm, never.

Hate to say it but I felt this from the onset.

Maybe they like the current setup, dunno.

I tend (mostly) to stay positive when discussing topics on the public forums, but I need to testify my brothers and sisters.

I've put a HAMSTER-ton of $ into the game since closed beta and I've simply loathed the current atmosphere in domQ for a year now. Seems that if you're P2W then they should at least listen :P *wink wink*.

Please fix this HAMSTER (hard) or add soloQ (easy, band aid). I can afford to throw $ in, and I can afford to walk away and wipe my hands. My patience is going, going, gone. This is my first MMO (and my last whether NWO craps out or not). It is actually getting boring to me and I hate that. The Devs that built this game were extraordinary, and I realize it must be tough with internal billing/time management, etc... For service-based companies it always seems to be and I feel ya.

Nutshell----> PLEASE DO SOMETHING DEVs, The combat system is way too awesome to punk out like this (very addictive game ). Hell maybe PWE needs to sell the company back to an american publisher if they can't afford to pay Cryptic's overworked employees (j/k).

Seriously, this is simply bad business development. You need some Harvard or Duke (Go Blue Devils)-trained MBA execs to step in for 6 months/year, and this thing would be back on track.

Peace, cheers, and no tears

jonkoca

I feel the same. First mmo, probably last. watching what's been happening over the last year has been saddening, to say the least.

SoloQ pvp was the first uptick for a long time. We would really appreciate some kind of feedback from the developers.