TR next rework/revamp feedbacks and ideas

guaxan

Hi all,

I think we agree about the damage that a TR have to do.

The matter is if the damage done by a TR is incresed to be usefull in a dungeon, then TR will be overpowered in PVP.

It is not easy to find a solution.

Maybe, the damage of all TR powers have to be increased with a debuff in PVP or something similar like "versus players, damage done will be 50% less". Or set a basic damage for TR in PVP and give to all TR powers a buff of 50% more damage versus non players.

Our class is the worst PVE dps character in dungeons / skirmishes, and this is a fact. It will be great to improve our TR class in the future

shrewguy

I don't think that's necessarily true, TRs could be buffed in a way that affects PvE without impacting PvP, such as buffing abilities that arn't viable for pvp, such as lurker's assault, wicked reminder and path of blades. making the sly flourish de-buff 10% instead of 5% could also make a huge impact on how desirable they are for PvE, without making them any stronger in pvp, as an example.

blur

No idea about PVP aspect but would buffing of bleeds by 100% make them too strong in PVP ? Would be certainly nice in PVE, stronger bleeds which also makes SoD hit more.

shrewguy

Duelist's flurry is probably the most used at-will in PvP it would definitely be a buff, though you could compensate by making the bleed stacks 1-6 weaker, but stacks 7-10 stronger, since in PvE you are wanting to keep the stacks on 10, while in PvP enemy players will try to avoid it and its far more likely to drop the stacks.

lordseth1985

blur#5900 said:

No idea about PVP aspect but would buffing of bleeds by 100% make them too strong in PVP ? Would be certainly nice in PVE, stronger bleeds which also makes SoD hit more.

If you focus on Arpen, yes it will. But, a 100% increase is ridiculous; 30-50% its more than enough IMO.

The pvp part should be looked with care since TR's are hated too much, but only 1 build is dominating there: SE-First Strike focused on Arpen and recovery.

trgluestickz

guaxan said:

Hi all,

I think we agree about the damage that a TR have to do.

The matter is if the damage done by a TR is incresed to be usefull in a dungeon, then TR will be overpowered in PVP.

It is not easy to find a solution.

Maybe, the damage of all TR powers have to be increased with a debuff in PVP or something similar like "versus players, damage done will be 50% less". Or set a basic damage for TR in PVP and give to all TR powers a buff of 50% more damage versus non players.

Our class is the worst PVE dps character in dungeons / skirmishes, and this is a fact. It will be great to improve our TR class in the future

You have this completely backwards and it appears you have fallen for a commonly held myth about the TR class. It is not uncommon for a player to reject a TR from a high dps slot in PVE content thinking they aren't good dps. This myth is completely false and my guildmates and I usually have to stifle a laugh when this happens to us. TRs when built correctly for PVE outdo or equal most GWFs, SWs, and CWs I've seen. My guild has a PVE TR majority and most of them do just as well as other geared dps classes at a similar level to them if not better. Our 2 strongest are both PVE TR build testers and it is rare for them to get out dpsed by anyone. My guildmates are not alone, I have seen many other TRs that can do the same. These people would tell you that most of their dps currently is coming from DF or a combo of both DF and SF. TR at will damage is fine in PVE right now and a buff to PVE at will dps while beneficial is entirely optional.

In PVP right now, at wills are mostly being used as something TRs use in the meantime while we wait for SE to come back up. I have talked with several PVP TRs recently including some of the build testers from EOA. They are saying the same thing I am about TR at wills being too weak in PVP. I have tried repeatedly to build a primarily at will damage based TR but right now, this has not been effective against most other pvpers around my gear/skill level range. The best result I was able to get without going pure shocking execution build was a hybrid that has some components of an SE build, cc build, and at will damage build. I use this build currently and my at will dps is a little higher than most other pvp trs but is still too watered down. I still do most of my killing with SE but the extra at will damage helps a little. DF does okish damage and cloud of steel is almost useless right now though its still better than having no ranged powers. Other at wills do even less damage in pvp than DF but are a good fit with more stealth focused builds.

trgluestickz

I meant to place multiple quoted posts in my above post, I am aware Guaxan was not taking about specifically at will dps but there were 2 other posts I meant to quote that did mention it, sorry about that.

demonmonger

My tr uses armpen 14000, lifesteal 6000, mobility 13000, and power 17000. Main damage is from at will df, daily main is courage breaker.

If I cannot win I can always use my speed to escape.

talon1970

trgluestickz said:

guaxan said:

Hi all,

I think we agree about the damage that a TR have to do.

The matter is if the damage done by a TR is incresed to be usefull in a dungeon, then TR will be overpowered in PVP.

It is not easy to find a solution.

Maybe, the damage of all TR powers have to be increased with a debuff in PVP or something similar like "versus players, damage done will be 50% less". Or set a basic damage for TR in PVP and give to all TR powers a buff of 50% more damage versus non players.

Our class is the worst PVE dps character in dungeons / skirmishes, and this is a fact. It will be great to improve our TR class in the future

You have this completely backwards and it appears you have fallen for a commonly held myth about the TR class. It is not uncommon for a player to reject a TR from a high dps slot in PVE content thinking they aren't good dps. This myth is completely false and my guildmates and I usually have to stifle a laugh when this happens to us. TRs when built correctly for PVE outdo or equal most GWFs, SWs, and CWs I've seen. My guild has a PVE TR majority and most of them do just as well as other geared dps classes at a similar level to them if not better. Our 2 strongest are both PVE TR build testers and it is rare for them to get out dpsed by anyone. My guildmates are not alone, I have seen many other TRs that can do the same. These people would tell you that most of their dps currently is coming from DF or a combo of both DF and SF. TR at will damage is fine in PVE right now and a buff to PVE at will dps while beneficial is entirely optional.

In PVP right now, at wills are mostly being used as something TRs use in the meantime while we wait for SE to come back up. I have talked with several PVP TRs recently including some of the build testers from EOA. They are saying the same thing I am about TR at wills being too weak in PVP. I have tried repeatedly to build a primarily at will damage based TR but right now, this has not been effective against most other pvpers around my gear/skill level range. The best result I was able to get without going pure shocking execution build was a hybrid that has some components of an SE build, cc build, and at will damage build. I use this build currently and my at will dps is a little higher than most other pvp trs but is still too watered down. I still do most of my killing with SE but the extra at will damage helps a little. DF does okish damage and cloud of steel is almost useless right now though its still better than having no ranged powers. Other at wills do even less damage in pvp than DF but are a good fit with more stealth focused builds.

So would you mind sharing your builds?
Actually imho "meta builds" for PvE are Mi Exe with different Scoundrel feats in like "Press the Advantage" or "Black Alley Tactics".
And yes, sometimes when i am running with pre-made partys (Zerg Channel Members, mostly CN) i can compete with CW and Gwf.
Running with my Guild....no Chance, Running with a pre made group a guild member organizes...i am only a filler, every Boss in CN including Orcus was dead in seconds bc the Gf and Gwf was able to do such an high burst damage, i wasn't able to bring on one single df bleeding stack.
So as @micky1p00 stated out, our burst damage is too low, the cooldowns for encounters are too high (comparing to desintegrate from an CW for example), our debuff abilitys are too low (comparing to some SW builds actually, i would not bring in DC), CC is not that important if the whole party has reached an decent ilvl (and everyone in knows how to play), Cw and Trapper HR can bring in better CC.
As i stated out before, the game has changed more and more from: "Let's bring in as much dps classes as possible to do content", to "Let's bring in as much support classes and only one hard hitting striker class and let's buff them as high as possible."
A situation a (PvE) Tr cannot compete with other classes, actually.

raymond00713

After a lot of stubbornness (mostly because I love my class and refused to believe it was so far behind) I have to agree with @talon1970 on this. I dont lose paingiver in pug. I can usually beat equally geared gwfs and sws. Guild runs? No way. Sws and gwfs with the same knowledge and effort that I have invested into my tr I cant come close.

lordseth1985

morenthar said:

@lordseth1985



PvP TRs do not focus on ArPen. We can't get enough ArPen to make a difference in the current climate.



MIs are recovery and power.



WKs all power.

really? weird cuz 75-90% of tr's I inspect on pvp have a high arpen, around 60-80% resist ignored.

micky1p00

/10char

micky1p00

About PvE TR, it's not in a good place, could be worse, but not great either. @trgluestickz is indeed in a guild with great TRs, mostly BiS and know what they are doing.
IMHO you lack a perspective of really good other classes. And it's not easy to find, the really good GWF, CW, SW, HRs etc..
Even as not the greatest TR I can beat a lot of other classes, but when you meet the top of those you feel the difference.
Also there is a huge difference with the needed effort. TR rotation needs to be exact and change for for each enemy, and depends on what on cool down and what not, what in the party, etc.. It's much more taxing than some other classes to get to some good results.

Now, besides that, I think people neglect extremely important aspect when they bring suggestions, and it's with who you run, your gear level, and your target, besides the obvious difference between PvP and PvE.

The stronger the group and weaker the enemies the worst Executioner is. Nothing stays alive for the 6 seconds it takes SoD to proc. All those +damage on enemy health below 40% / 30% are useless, most of the trash either alive, or dead, there is no much between. And if someone not dead yet after you got managed to 'burst it' with a rotation, the SW,HR,GWF,CW will finish it way faster than a TR with only DF/Sly left.

So suggestions for more DoTs, more SoD, etc, are not applicable. They will work for few not moving bosses, but even those die really really fast (seconds fast) with a good group. And the 'strongest' boss today, last boss in FBI, moves so much, go manage to stack DF and SoD on it.... You will happily pop lurkers, invisible inflitrator up, everything great, start DFing just as he pops his freezing wind thing and you screwed.

Sabo, having higher burst but less sustained damage, because of the above, can deal comparable damage in PvE, but it's all due to "Return to shadows" and less with the capstone. The major problems with sabo except that the effort that takes it play to high effect in PvE is enourmous and it's just tiresome is that the capstone and the major feat, return to shadow, lacks a any synergy with the class. It adds encounter damage and the entire tree encourages encounter usage, but the cool downs wont allow a 'trapper' like play, and you must resort to DF, and then you are screwd, with all the major feats (encounter synergy) have nothing to do to help with the large portion of the damage (DF + DF bleed).

Scoundrel was described by, @trgluestickz some use CC like smoke and procers like lightning to spread the skull breaker and feats and then lurker+TC4+BF to get the most on the mobs and it's nice, but at the boss it's all falls apart. And imo again it lacks the synergy for the class.
One quick fix could be to proc skullcracker bonus on CA in PvE. CA is easier to get and bosses are not CA immune like CC except the short courage breaker window.

Also to the OP and other suggestions, please don't turn TR into some tank / utility support buffer. If I wanted to play support I would go MoF or DC, and believe me I have those with HV, HP and all the needed enchants.
TR doesn't tank stuff, I don't need additional deflect, shiled like AP drainer or etc.., I don't even slot SF or any armor enchant, usually only frostborn for the looks, and as long as everything working you wont die, and if the tank die in place like FBI / Orcus, you will most likely die anyway. No need to make some gimp hybrids that can't tank nor can't dps. We can't tank because stealth drop aggro, so lets not get into this.
Lets focus on what TR should do well, and it's kill stuff. If someone personally dies, please look into adding more LS / HP / deflect, or perhaps some play style things like dodging forward into red for timed immunity frames.

pitshade

" not the greatest TR"

Lies! Double taxes!

raymond00713

that is the problem described perfectly by micky. It's exactly what I'm saying and what I've found through testing sab and exe (forget scoundrel) against other BiS (as my tr is) well played classes. The best we have on our supposed damge pve tree is to be more powerful when their health is nearly gone?? SoD on what? They're dead way before 6 seconds is over.

sirjimbofrancis

Micky is right on the money. I don't play Pvp, so I can't speak to that. Personally, the premade parties that melt bosses in less than six seconds aren't particularly fun for me, so I don't seek them out. If there isn't at least a little challenge, it just loses its appeal. But, then again when you are forced to farm the same 3 or 4 dungeons a bajillion times to get ahead, you just want to get done, and I can appreciate that.

TRs do take a lot more finess to play them optimally, and they take several powers working together, in the proper order, to drop their most efficient damage. I can definitely see that a boss dying in less than 6 seconds would put TRs at a serious disadvantage. I'd say the fight has to take at least 10 seconds for us to even get one full powered proc of out SoD off.

But, that being said, apart from some pretty minor tweaks that I'm sure we could all agree on, isn't the main problem that it is possible to kill the bosses in under 6 seconds? It seems to me that doing that much game breaking damage is a function of either buffs being too strong, or bosses being too weak. I can agree that TRs could use some beefing up in PVE, but I guess I don't get the whole, "in premades where bosses die in 6 seconds we can't keep up with other classes therefore we need higher burst damage." They are doing that crazy damage because of the buffs, not their class powers, particularly. Without the buffs, TRs can give any DPS class a run for their money. 95% of the people playing this game don't run in parties like that.

In other words, if you removed the buff classes from the equation, how do PVE TRs stack up to the other DPS Classes? If they are comparable, then the problem lies in the buff classes, doesn't it?

Sorry, I'm a little disjointed, I'm just stream of conscious writing here, but that's my initial gut feeling reading this.

micky1p00

@sirjimbofrancis I didn't mean that the bosses fall under 6 seconds. That's indeed extremely rare. But even for longer fights, there are several problems, the whole damage setup (bleed) and maintenance is problematic, and more fragile. If you look at other classes damage over time you usually will see 'flat line' for at-wills and among them 'bumps' for encounters or 'hills' for things like unstoppable.
Or Trappers with constant bleed and spikes for encounters.
(maybe it's different now on them, but lets assume)
TRs look a bit different different because of the setup, and stealth activating SoD and feats like more damage bellow 70% and daily activating feats like invisible infiltrator + lurkers bonus.
The graph is much less 'reliable' large downs when everything on cooldown, large ups when the buffs active, it's all over the place. Why it's bad, and why many having hard time to keep up. For example I've activated everything and just in that time Garristo charged away, I lost all my damage. Other classes don't have this problem to this extent. Especially considering it's a melee class, so there is gap closing issue.

So some suggestions:

1. The set up: DF bleed is not reliable, it need to be "Flurry applies bleed stack" and not a chance to apply. This means that one flurry will apply the stacks (iirc a flurry is 10 hits, but not 100% sure), and with stealth management it can be forced to crit. This is the most important thing. Right now, if you miss the 10th stack and didn't stealth on it, and it didn't crit, you are screwed, you need to stop DFing, let the stacks timeout and start again, because that's where the damage comes from. And I personally don't want it to be that tense, I want to play not to chase mini icon, with mini digits I can barely see in all that mess.

2. The bleed timeout, with the above change the timeout can be longer, allowing players more actions between DFs. Means, that a player that not top skilled and not with 50ping time can dodge, apply WR or full Sly for the debuff and return do DF, and not get totally screwed if stunned or mistimed a but or just lagged.
This, and the first suggestion, will also mitigate the jumping bosses, like ToS first phase and FBI last, allowing the TR to set up bleed and it will tick even while chasing the boss half the room.

So, faster setup, longer uptime.

3. SoD: The entire idea is not scaling well, and it's targeting is not reliable. Keeping the idea as it is it can work by applying 6 stacks (for each encounter from stealth - lurker and smoke will need to be fixed a bit for this), each 1 stack will last 1 second, apply 50% of the damage that the mob received during that second and expire, so it goes first stack for the first second, second for the next and so on. It's the same 6 seconds total, bit divided into 1 second ticks. Also It should apply to all targets.

This will allow 3 things, first, 1 second ticks will be beneficial for weaker mobs, so it will amplify part of the damage even if it's bellow 6 seconds.
Second, it will allow a longer stacking of the amplification, with invisible infiltrator you will be able stack 12 stacks. Still problematic, because everything should align extremely well to get the max out of it, but if executed correctly it give amplified damage over a longer rotation times.
The disadvantage is forcing AP gain build, so perhaps that double stacking should be shelved, dunno.(probably not good idea)

And the last thing, applying to all targets. This will make it reliable as active on the boss and will allow easier use of dazing strike and smoke bomb.

4. Feats:

Shadowborn: They should be activated from encounters only, It's silly that SoD was changed to encounters only, but this feat works on bleed and wasted. Using it forces a very specific "encounter first" rotation. So it creates a choice of investing in it, or leaving the stealth to make DF bleed crit. And it's lose-lose situation.

All the 40% health / 30% health: Please no. You missed the 30% health part while a CW ice knifed or IBS or anything and here gone 5 point feat.

All the granting stuff on mobs died: Some of them really nice, like the Dying Breath (crit severity and speed run for a time), it's fun, but again, the toughest bosses today don't have mobs. So it's fun, but wasted in the most critical moment. Tie it to stealth, to encounter usage, to dodging, anything....

Worse with Twisted Grin, all the next hit is gone with bleed / DF.

It forces specific rotations to maximize the gain from them, and forces to TR to run ahead on max speed to strike at the next mob group before the short buff expires from the last dead group.


At the end, as I see it, it's not the buff / debuff. There will be always disparity in content, and when you run with other people they will all usually get the same buffs, so how come some will benefit more other less.....
Here is the issue and it's how TRs scale.. and they do not scale well, at all. Partially because what I've described above, feat depends on timing while the death speed of the mobs varies highly, and setup and mobility and large part because the core mechanic of crit from stealth:
There is a mid point when TRs are great, using the crit for stealth while other classes just don't have the stat, but later when everyone gear up and reach about 100% crit chance, the TRs drop behind. Why?! Because all our crit stat (and ability score) is wasted when we press stealth. So in a press of a button all the Dexterity and ~20k-25k? Stat have 0 effect on the damage. But we still aim to get those stats bcause it's worse without them.. Again Loss-Loss.

sirjimbofrancis

@micky1p00 good points all, and I can't really argue with any of them. Thanks for clearing it up a little for me! Yeah, if we get out of sync with our rotation we lose a huge percentage of our DPS. i like the suggestions you made here, and we'll see if anyone notices. I hope that do!

lordseth1985

Yeah, the biggest problem with us is the great cd on powers, df overall damage and bleed damage.

SoD never worked as intended or even as the tooltip says. Making it proc on everything hit by the powers should cover the "bug" on it, BUT... we'll be even more hated on pvp XD

We are a class that can do great both pve and pvp, but the situation now needs a great overlook so one can't interfere with another. Also, saboteur and scoundrel should be re-evaluated, since skullcracker and one with shadows should allign with changes made to executioner tree.

IMO, Skullcraker should be totally reworked: instead of a 15 sec cd "power", they could make concussive strikes the "new skullcracker" since it makes more sense a crit hit dazing the foe and any following crit hit extend the daze. Low blows is too much under rated and used, almost useless against bosses; as far as I remember, only WR and CB activates it, but I can be wrong about it.

asmodeus6

I think I started playing Sept 25. And do not PVP much at all. I'm around 2.5k il.

I can definitely comment to the unreliability of dazing's "cone" if you want to call it that. Because sometimes I can nail 20 adds to varying degrees, and others I can only manage 1 of the 3 standing in what should be a perfect strike zone in front of me. If this was a reliable thing, the damage wouldn't bother me. I'd like to see a (single) tick of some kind of interrupt/stagger with lashing as well. Just enough to stick the DF's second hit before it goes burst.

PVE damage output is simple. Change the bleed stack cap to 20 or 30 for DF (in PVE only). Make subsequent hits with gloaming cut increase in speed or output. Done. The somewhat slow draw back has to be worth the mechanics of using it. I'd be satisfied with AOE stun/CC but as in Inf/executioner I should be rewarded for hanging in on the same enemy and digging and digging. I am giving up a damage EP to use ITC and stay ON my target. I feel like ITC is mitigating the risk of latching on to an important target through the AOE / main that WILL <--- WILL 1 shot you. It is also keeping you from controlling adds and doing other things in those fights. And again, having to deal with DF's sticky mechanic should reward a little more for what you put into it, IF you stick it out through a few full runs of it.

The majority of the issues that I see are the investment vs reward needs a slight nudge. I am burning my stealth in exchange for damage. I am burning my mobility in exchange for stacks (DF). I am burning my DPS in exchange for stealth back / and finisher damage. (GC)

The icing on the cake is the latency issues and AOE / highlighters not popping in time with what I am seeing on my screen. As a class that gets OHK'd by nearly everything late game, this compounds my risk vs reward with frustrating timing on bosses that have cheap mechanics, and essentially just Olympic sized pools of health. The juice has to be worth the squeeze. If I'm going to be made of tissue paper and prayers (dodge roll) then I want to hit accordingly. GC could be made a charge attack that is sticky. Hit from 30m on a highlight/ like a lunge. So I could cue the attack at my discretion and pop in for a very solid hit. You could make the second GC on the same target near instant at it's normal damage. Adding a small amount of focused mini burst damage. Outside of that I have to be in OHK range to do any real damage, and I have to stay there as many rotations as I can milking ITC against what is my best guess as to when I am going to receive large portions of damage.

Changes made in PVE do not have to effect PvP at all to reduce QQ'ing. A simple set of parenthesis solves that no problem.

raymond00713

Nice post @asmodeus6#2618 , especially the part about pvp in parentheses. So simple but a solution hadn't occurred to me until I read your post.

asmodeus6

> @raymond00713 said:
> Nice post @asmodeus6#2618 , especially the part about pvp in parentheses. So simple but a solution hadn't occurred to me until I read your post.

The enchantments already have a dual effect (PVE/PVP) addendum. Balancing EP's and daily's can be done the same way. Give me 20 stacks of bleed on DF in PVE and leave the 10 in PVP.

Conversely, VP could simply get a tweak that could develop stacks. Or boost damage of the DF stacks. The more bleed stacks of DF applied, target takes X%/X%/X% more damage for the 6 sec's from VP. DF, triggers VP, VP being more specific to latching on to a specific target, with narrower grounds for activation, could have a larger bonus that still applied to everything. As it would still decay on it's own, and with the bleed stacks. But still be a specific paragon reward that made sense.

Tiny things could be tweaked.

In nearly every game that involves PVP and a class that has some form of invisibility, the QQ'ing is always the loudest. Regardless of how nerfed into the ground it gets. Everyone will always see the invisible killer as the most OP thing, even if it isn't. Invisibility and shotguns. Oceans of tears. :'( :'( :'( :'(