First strike should be adjusted so that it doesn't synergize so well with executioner builds.
@pepe#7131 No one complains about reaping strike because no one uses reaping strike... If this is your argument then you are completely out of your element in this discussion. Reaping strike is 100% bad, no damage, huge wind up, ridiculous animation.... Just no.
As far as "preparing" for a "strong blow", a TR needs no preparation for this. It's stealth up, then daily. I'm sorry man but your argument doesn't make sense to me, at all.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
Not voting because what I would choose is not present.
We need players that can hit that 180k hp mark in pvp. Some people in pvp have 200k hp and seriously don't die even with 5 players attacking them.
If shocking execution gets nerfed then need all damage mitigation for players in pvp. Add a damage mitigation depression . Until then, no shocking execution is fine.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
First strike should be adjusted so that it doesn't synergize so well with executioner builds.
That is only true if the 200k HP player is BIS and all other players are 2k or less. A BIS pally can survive a couple of BIS dpsers at best, more than that and they will die as well.
I have never witnessed a player attacked by 5 equally geared players survive. This is an exaggeration.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
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ionvnegativoMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 119Arc User
edited October 2016
TRs need 50k-80k damage (crit, post mitigation) dazing strikes and lashing blades with 10 secs cooldown (as GFs have) without stacking recovery, problem solved, no more power/recovery for FS+SE but power/armp.
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
I stacked armpen, it doesn't do much in pvp when all my hits go critical.
I have done lashing blades of 120,000 damage but after mitigation the enemy player only takes 5000 damage and instand heals
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
First strike should be adjusted so that it doesn't synergize so well with executioner builds.
TRs need a rework, there is no question. It would be interesting to see what TRs would prefer in their rework, I have a few ideas myself.
However the issue here is regarding a very specific build that takes advantage of the synergy between exe tree and first strike. I don't think that one can argue that TR damage needs rework so until then one shotting TRs are fine.
No class should be able to one shot.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
First strike should be left as is, one shotting players is completely legit and working as intended.
> No class should be able to one shot.
I play TR too, and i tried to build it like that, I tried other builds before but for me it is the only effective way to use in pvp against BiS players, if you want some kills too other than mere "node capper" so I sacrificed all other stats just to get my power up to 30kish, which is lame, i too squishy and have to wait a lil while before i can use it again, yah it is true it can 1 shot a not pvp geared player who didn't invest much on HP, but against a BiS player, it's really nothing! I can only use it as a finisher to a "dying one" It would be nice to see someone that can really deliver 180-200k to BiS GF/GWF.
First strike should be adjusted so that it doesn't synergize so well with executioner builds.
If you are using bile thorn and not vorpal, if you are not taking feats that increase crit severity and power upon stealth then you are not building towards the one shot and this proposed change will not effect you.
I can build a 3K IL TR who hits for 160k+ easily. It's not difficult, it's just damage multipliers, crit sev, power boosters, gaining power on your toon at all costs and first strike.
If you argue that one shots are legit then you might as well never argue against BIS toons killing pugs with no tenacity with one hit as well. Same difference. It's like saying "well they didn't build towards tenacity, they deserve to get one shotted ".
I'll remember this from those of you posting who cry foul of players with pvp gear insta killing pugs. If this is legit, so is that.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
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ionvnegativoMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 119Arc User
damages from SE depend on the current item level of the player against the opponent he is attacking to... Exe tr with greater bile at 2.7k iL 16k power hits a geared gwf (BIS 3K+) with SE (first strike and oppresive darkness) and deals 65k crit to him...the gwf had 175k hp approx...
those 180k SE come only from BIS TRs with +40k power. at 25k power FS+SE is about 110k.
3k is not BIS.....im 3.3k and im not BIS, i cant 1 shot with 25k power a BIS 4k player.
I stacked armpen, it doesn't do much in pvp when all my hits go critical.
ive done that too....12k Armp does nothing, even lurker assaul+invisible infiltrator+first strike deals only 30k on lashing blade on a 3,5k GWF....without that buffs is about 2k-10k with 15-17 secs cooldown.
Just be glad you all don't really have to deal with rogues on xbox. 90% of them wear ambush rings, quickly drop smoke bomb, instantly go into stealth and use shocking execution and hit about 180k+ which procs shadow of demise a few seconds later which hits about another 90k. ALMOST all of the BIS rogues are 30k to 40k power here. Tell me how GWF's and SW's are supposed to survive that?
Find me in game if you want and send me a domination/ gaunt invite. If you are good and im not busy ill play with you. Im not an elitist ill play with almost anyone.
First strike should be adjusted so that it doesn't synergize so well with executioner builds.
@ionnegativo please don't cut out the bits I say to misquote me. That's the equivalent of lying. You cut out the most relevant information, this is obvious propaganda. I see your agenda here.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
Without any buffs, BIS power stacked MI executioner with first strike can hit 180K + shocking execution.
Solution is simple (to me) it seems.
Make S.E. work ALOT like Anvil of Doom (GF power).
S.E. should now respect tenacity (GASP! OH NO!!!! Crazy idea I know) this will be a pretty large nerf to its damage. So S.E. should get a boost to damage. Call it a 100% increase (double the base damage). These two changes would make S.E. ~ 40-50% of the current damage on a full HP target.
You then adjust the S.E. feat so that it reads: "If you hit a target below 20% HP, your AP is refilled AND S.E. deals DOUBLE damage!" As it already states: additional ranks increase the HP threshold 5%. So at rank 4, its what, 35%? Maybe buff this so additional ranks increase that by 10%. Thus at 50% HP threshold it will deal DOUBLE damage, making the damage ~80% or more of the CURRENT damage it deals - but only to targets <50%.
Wait... so now S.E. is an execution move? Crazy.... and WAIT!? it obeys tenacity? Yeah I know.... I am just WAYYYY out there man... Call me nuts.
Without any buffs, BIS power stacked MI executioner with first strike can hit 180K + shocking execution.
Solution is simple (to me) it seems.
Make S.E. work ALOT like Anvil of Doom (GF power).
S.E. should now respect tenacity (GASP! OH NO!!!! Crazy idea I know) this will be a pretty large nerf to its damage. So S.E. should get a boost to damage. Call it a 100% increase (double the base damage). These two changes would make S.E. ~ 40-50% of the current damage on a full HP target.
You then adjust the S.E. feat so that it reads: "If you hit a target below 20% HP, your AP is refilled AND S.E. deals DOUBLE damage!" As it already states: additional ranks increase the HP threshold 5%. So at rank 4, its what, 35%? Maybe buff this so additional ranks increase that by 10%. Thus at 50% HP threshold it will deal DOUBLE damage, making the damage ~80% or more of the CURRENT damage it deals - but only to targets
Are you HAMSTER ...??? ...''Make S.E. work ALOT like Anvil of Doom (GF power'' You compare a gf class with a tr class .... gimme a break , tr class depending on each path must have survivability(scoundrel),high critical blows and severe damage(exe) or a continuous stream of dot damage .... you can recall you post whenever you want @ayroux
We are all entitled to our own opinions
I am not saying the classes are balanced. I have played BOTH GF and TR, I understand the classes very well and what they entail. The issue YOU seem to have is you think TR isnt strong enough or balanced and seem to suggest you need to rely on this crutch of a move to make TR viable.
If TR isnt viable with these changes, thats a CLASS issue. SE is a troll move, that is supposed to be used as a finisher NOT a 100-0 move that can 1 shot or nearly 1 shot players at full HP. It serves zero purpose in PVP and only causes frustration and is the REASON why TRs havnt been fixed - because SE is a crutch. They cant buff other areas without FIRST fixing SE.
Heck one of my proposals for TR a while back was to remove stealth meter completely. You can either be stealth indefinitely or out of it. Attacking with an encounter brings you out, attacking with at wills keeps you in stealth. They would need to slow the attack speed of at wills a little in stealth, or possibly make other adjustments, but that is just ONE idea for balancing. Many others are viable. Its not my main class anymore but SE is the problem, not a solution and needs to be fixed to be an EXECUTION/FINISHER and not an opener.
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ionvnegativoMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 119Arc User
edited October 2016
@tolkienbuff the Mr. "black" propaganda here is you, since you are adressing a problem that comes from mod4, and everybody is aware of, without posting the solution like a video where you show us another viable build that doesnt use SE and doesnt need high recovery...
Im not defending the FS+SE build because i dont use it, i cant stack 30k/40k power for that...im low item level....but posting a nerf thread like you trying to nerf executioner path because ppl abuse it without thinking in pve is off of topic, because this are the kind of request that ends destroying the class.
All agree that SE piercing damage must be removed, but asking to nerf the exe path is talk about hurting pve players which are the mayority in this game....just post this in the pve section asking to adjust exe path and daily powers and you will see all the flame you get. If they adjust one daily, the have to adjust all the dailies to not "sinergyze" with exe feats.
This post is not offering a single solution where TRs lose SE and in return feats and other powers get a rework to compensate that damage.
Everybody is talking and giving ideas about SE changes but not about a feats/powers/paths buffs.... so you are posting nerf solutions and giving nothing...And just add this thread with the CB/deflect severity/ITC/stealth nerf posts that are running around, and your nerf crusade is complete.
like i said before, shows us a video with a build that can kill an equal geared player, and dont use SE. or post your TR class rework where every feat and power is adjusted and the pve community remains untouchable.
@tolkienbuff the Mr. "black" propaganda here is you, since you are adressing a problem that comes from mod4, and everybody is aware of, without posting the solution like a video where you show us another viable build that doesnt use SE and doesnt need high recovery...
Im not defending the FS+SE build because i dont use it, i cant stack 30k/40k power for that...im low item level....but posting a nerf thread like you trying to nerf executioner path because someone abuse it without thinking in pve is off of topic, because this are the kind of request that ends destroying the class.
This troll post is not offering a single solution.
like i said before, shows us a video with a build that can kill an equal geared player, and dont use SE, otherwise go take your HR and kill pugs with your plant growth+PB.
A problem that comes from mod4? Post a video of a viable build that doesn't use SE or recovery? Nerfing executioner path? I'm not sure how to address all these different unrelated requests.
I'm really sort of at a loss as to what you're getting at here so I'll try my best to address your issues as best as I can make them out. I have no problem with S.E., I haven't said anything about SE. I have no problem with executioner path or power stacking or first strike. Any of these feats/dailies/passives are fine by me. The issue I'm addressing is very specific. It deals with using all three in a synergistic fashion to be able to take players from full health to death.
It is very simple to stack 30K + power, using the shadowborn feat in the executioner tree "increases the power rating of your next attack by 100%", First strike at rank 4 gives you an additional 75% damage bonus, arterial cut grants an additional 15% crit severity, vorpal of course grants 50% additional crit severity. When you add all these bonuses together you can hit for over 200K if you're BIS. You can easily hit 180K above 3K IL.
I would love to talk with PVE rogues to ask how they incorporate first strike because you must leave combat for it to reset after the first blow. I'd honestly be surprised if it was used frequently in PVE. I don't want to "nerf the executioner path". If you had read anything I posted my suggestion was to make adjustments to the First strike passive.
I have no desire to destroy the class, I actually have a BIS TR. The class is fine, there are multiple ways to play it. If you go high recovery you can spam SB and CB forever. However, this is apparently off limits, I'm not allowed to use that as a solution. So if you go partial power partial recovery you can use SE which will max out at around 80-100K and combine it with good rotations to kill other players. Even 100K will still one shot pugs with low HP. The difference is that you have other utility and can actually offer more to your team than simply one shotting and running away.
I feel you are not reading the other posts, or that you are simply misunderstanding the point. However, it's interesting that you talk about me killing Pugs with my HR (which also uses piercing damage). I do find it ironic when TRs complain about piercing damage while defending their own vehemently.
I digress however, what I propose would not effect the class over all whatsoever, it's simply an adjustment to a single passive that will negate these overperforming builds that can offer little else in terms of playability and utility.
As far as posting videos for your specific preferences using your specific limitations, I feel that you may be a little excessive in your request.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
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ionvnegativoMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 119Arc User
edited October 2016
@tolkienbuff again a lot of words without a single solution.
I would love to talk with PVE rogues to ask how they incorporate first strike because you must leave combat for it to reset after the first blow. I'd honestly be surprised if it was used frequently in PVE. I don't want to "nerf the executioner path". If you had read anything I posted my suggestion was to make adjustments to the First strike passive.
^^ FS is used to farm solo pve content if you dont know, HEs, mini dungeons, trash mob....everything that is solo content, slot FS and dazing strike, lashing blade, whirlwind of blades, etc, and all the run is done in a half of the time. only In 5 players runs in useless.
so tell us, how to adjust FS+arterial cut+vorpal+shadowborn that are used in pve, just to remove SE, and how to compensate that lost with feats/powers/path rework. This entire post as you say, is to adress a very specific issue, but by doing that you should post what else has to be done to improve lets say atwill and encounter power damage. In other words, asking for a SE fix without giving a compensation, is unacceptable.
i removed the HR part, because is another topic.
A video? of course, paper and words tell nothing, prove what you say.
First strike should be adjusted so that it doesn't synergize so well with executioner builds.
So you like to use FS with whirlwind of blades in PVE as your first hit? I ask because it then goes on cooldown until you're out of combat, it's useless again until then. If this is a huge source of your damage in PVE I'm interested. I'd like to see if other PVE TRs agree, I'm surprised you're out of combat enough for it to overall increase your DPS.
Perhaps you can post a video of how effective First Strike is in mini dungeons so I can gain a better understanding of its use in PVE. I don't pretend to be a PVE expert as most content is run with your eyes closed anyway, I recognize fully that some people want to be the paingiver in dungeons and such and I'm always up for hearing how they achieved that. If FS is a huge damage increase in dungeons then I would say something simple like halving it's effectiveness in PVP would likely be enough.
It's a relatively simple solution, took me about the length of time of reading your rebuttal, which again seems to only be about having me post videos for you (gosh guy at least take me out to dinner first ).
If you notice, yet again, I never asked for those feats to be changed, primarily because I think it's just first strike that could use a minor adjustment for PVP and the one shot build would disappear.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
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ionvnegativoMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 119Arc User
edited October 2016
So you like to use FS with whirlwind of blades in PVE as your first hit?
Of course i like it, fire wheel+FS+WB(+-150K) is a 1 shot to farm HEs in solo content, FS+LB+lurker=250k, FS+DS+lurker=100k, with only 28k power and a defensive pvp build. A pve TR will deal much more damage with a FS. As i said in 5 man runs FS is useless, but for solo, cleans the path from trash mob in the half of the time.
is the piercing damage SE has what needs the fix, not FS, FS is used in pve, SE is not used in pve, but again, removing SE involves that 50k to 80k(post mitigation) lashing blades or why not, shadow strikes with 10 secs cd can happen in compensation.
If you notice, yet again, I never asked for those feats to be changed then what you ask when you say to adjust exe path to not boost damage...this is what you wrote: Executioner tree should be adjusted so it doesn't synergize so well with first strike.
is shadowborn/arterial cut/deathknell/last moments/FS that boost not only SE but any other power, nerfing any of them with will hurt pve...is piercing damage SE has not FS.
a full self buffed TR with 20k power, 12k armp, perfect vorpal, FS, lurker assault, invisible infiltrator, lashing blade deals around 30k on a 3,5k GWF which means FS is not the issue. the nerf in SE is right, but not giving others sources of damage cant happen both at the same time.
So you like to use FS with whirlwind of blades in PVE as your first hit?
Of course i like it, fire wheel+FS+WB(+-150K) is a 1 shot to farm HEs in solo content, FS+LB+lurker=200k, FS+DS+lurker=100k. As i said in 5 man runs FS is useless, but for solo, cleans the path from trash mob in the half of the time.
I have no doubt that combo wrecks Solo PVE content. I usually don't even consider solo PVE content when discussing class balance of course because I consider it to be mostly irrelevant as you can't win Paingiver and you could basically use any abilities/features and wreck it.
However, if you find it particularly effective in clearing solo material, I'll take your word that it's a very good loadout for that content.
One thing I'd like to address here is something that I feel you never understood about this post as evidenced by your repetition of it:
"Everybody is talking and giving ideas about SE changes but not about a feats/powers/paths buffs.... so you are posting nerf solutions and giving nothing...And just add this thread with the CB/deflect severity/ITC/stealth nerf posts that are running around, and your nerf crusade is complete.?"
I tried repeating it several times but apparently it's difficult to understand that I don't want to change SE. I don't necessarily want to change any feats/paths/or powers. I am not on a crusade, and I have no desire to affect PVE abilities on the TR. For that matter, this poll has nothing to do with CB/Deflect severity/ITC/Stealth or any such class mechanics. It's interesting that you seem to be laying all these forum discussions at my feet as though I'm somehow involved in them.
The only reason I mentioned changing the feats of the executioner tree was because I wondered if anyone would come up with a creative way to address this overperforming build without affecting the Exe as a whole.
TR Class rework is coming and I hope they will give TR some interesting damage buffs so that at some point they won't have to rely on dailies for the vast majority of their damage. Deflection and deflect severity are a completely different discussion... it is interesting that a Deflection build TR can get 96% deflection and 85% deflection severity potted in PVP. That's really, really tanky, combine that with ITC and it makes for an invulverable TR. Combine that with stealth and they will basically never die.
It will be interesting to see how the class ends up being reworked. I hope it will make playing my TR even more fun
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
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ionvnegativoMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 119Arc User
edited October 2016
I tried repeating it several times but apparently it's difficult to understand that I don't want to change SE.
Is SE what needs the change not FS or any feat in the exe tree...you can change FS and the exe tree and SE will be indirectly nerfed, but thats not the right way cuz it will hurt other content...FS can stay as it is also could have a boost for a 100% damage increase, and yet if you use it in an encouter power in pvp it wouldnt do much...
This threads must target piercing damage only to completely remove it, not passives and feats which boost that damage and are not the main reason of the problem, since is proved than in mitigable damage, those powers/feats work fine.
First strike should be adjusted so that it doesn't synergize so well with executioner builds.
Lol, lemme get this straight. You complain at me for trying to nerf SE and piercing damage. I tell you I only want FS adjusted for PVP. You then tell me SE needs to be changed, not FS.
Well I've stated my opinion several times.I don't think I have anything else to add to that.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
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ionvnegativoMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 119Arc User
they are not gonna change FS only for pvp, even if FS is removed and SE deals only 100k without FS, the glich with smoke bomb remains....
100k SE+50k shadow of demise is a insta death for most players, you would nerf FS, but SE and the piercing damage remains the same. Only BiS 4k players with more than 150k HP get the benefits. That is like cutting the branches(FS) of a tree, when you have to cut the roots(SE).
they are not gonna change FS only for pvp, even if FS is removed and SE deals only 100k without FS, the glich with smoke bomb remains....
100k SE+50k shadow of demise is a insta death for most players, you would nerf FS, but SE and the piercing damage remains the same. Only BiS 4k players with more than 150k HP get the benefits. That is like cutting the branches(FS) of a tree, when you have to cut the roots(SE).
Well, tell ya what. You should start a forum thread about how SE should be changed, along with smokebomb. I'll get some popcorn and enjoy the entertainment. I ask only for one specific issue with a very specific set of circumstances causing a specific build of TR to overperform with SE and look what kind of backlash I get. I'd LOVE to see how well your idea goes over amongst TRs.
It's very simple for them to adjust a single passive by halving it's effectiveness in PVP. RIght now SE is absolutely needed in PVP till a complete rework grants damage to the TR from encounters again. This poll was not meant to address the overall class issues of TR as I've already stated, just one single aspect that allows medium IL TRs to hit for ridiculous numbers in PVP. I'll leave the rest of the potential class changes to you TRs to hash out
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
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kreatyveMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 10,545Community Moderator
And with that... thread closed again. @tolkienbuff , send a PM if you wish to discuss the reasons behind it.
My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official. Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
Comments
As far as "preparing" for a "strong blow", a TR needs no preparation for this. It's stealth up, then daily. I'm sorry man but your argument doesn't make sense to me, at all.
We need players that can hit that 180k hp mark in pvp.
Some people in pvp have 200k hp and seriously don't die even with 5 players attacking them.
If shocking execution gets nerfed then need all damage mitigation for players in pvp. Add a damage mitigation depression . Until then, no shocking execution is fine.
I have never witnessed a player attacked by 5 equally geared players survive. This is an exaggeration.
I have done lashing blades of 120,000 damage but after mitigation the enemy player only takes 5000 damage and instand heals
However the issue here is regarding a very specific build that takes advantage of the synergy between exe tree and first strike. I don't think that one can argue that TR damage needs rework so until then one shotting TRs are fine.
No class should be able to one shot.
I play TR too, and i tried to build it like that, I tried other builds before but for me it is the only effective way to use in pvp against BiS players, if you want some kills too other than mere "node capper" so I sacrificed all other stats just to get my power up to 30kish, which is lame, i too squishy and have to wait a lil while before i can use it again, yah it is true it can 1 shot a not pvp geared player who didn't invest much on HP, but against a BiS player, it's really nothing! I can only use it as a finisher to a "dying one" It would be nice to see someone that can really deliver 180-200k to BiS GF/GWF.
I can build a 3K IL TR who hits for 160k+ easily. It's not difficult, it's just damage multipliers, crit sev, power boosters, gaining power on your toon at all costs and first strike.
If you argue that one shots are legit then you might as well never argue against BIS toons killing pugs with no tenacity with one hit as well. Same difference. It's like saying "well they didn't build towards tenacity, they deserve to get one shotted ".
I'll remember this from those of you posting who cry foul of players with pvp gear insta killing pugs. If this is legit, so is that.
at 25k power FS+SE is about 110k.
3k is not BIS.....im 3.3k and im not BIS, i cant 1 shot with 25k power a BIS 4k player.
^^ all agree with this ive done that too....12k Armp does nothing, even lurker assaul+invisible infiltrator+first strike deals only 30k on lashing blade on a 3,5k GWF....without that buffs is about 2k-10k with 15-17 secs cooldown.
@tolkienbuff
Just be glad you all don't really have to deal with rogues on xbox. 90% of them wear ambush rings, quickly drop smoke bomb, instantly go into stealth and use shocking execution and hit about 180k+ which procs shadow of demise a few seconds later which hits about another 90k. ALMOST all of the BIS rogues are 30k to 40k power here. Tell me how GWF's and SW's are supposed to survive that?
Make S.E. work ALOT like Anvil of Doom (GF power).
S.E. should now respect tenacity (GASP! OH NO!!!! Crazy idea I know) this will be a pretty large nerf to its damage. So S.E. should get a boost to damage. Call it a 100% increase (double the base damage). These two changes would make S.E. ~ 40-50% of the current damage on a full HP target.
You then adjust the S.E. feat so that it reads:
"If you hit a target below 20% HP, your AP is refilled AND S.E. deals DOUBLE damage!"
As it already states: additional ranks increase the HP threshold 5%. So at rank 4, its what, 35%? Maybe buff this so additional ranks increase that by 10%. Thus at 50% HP threshold it will deal DOUBLE damage, making the damage ~80% or more of the CURRENT damage it deals - but only to targets <50%.
Wait... so now S.E. is an execution move? Crazy.... and WAIT!? it obeys tenacity? Yeah I know.... I am just WAYYYY out there man... Call me nuts.
I am not saying the classes are balanced. I have played BOTH GF and TR, I understand the classes very well and what they entail. The issue YOU seem to have is you think TR isnt strong enough or balanced and seem to suggest you need to rely on this crutch of a move to make TR viable.
If TR isnt viable with these changes, thats a CLASS issue. SE is a troll move, that is supposed to be used as a finisher NOT a 100-0 move that can 1 shot or nearly 1 shot players at full HP. It serves zero purpose in PVP and only causes frustration and is the REASON why TRs havnt been fixed - because SE is a crutch. They cant buff other areas without FIRST fixing SE.
Heck one of my proposals for TR a while back was to remove stealth meter completely. You can either be stealth indefinitely or out of it. Attacking with an encounter brings you out, attacking with at wills keeps you in stealth. They would need to slow the attack speed of at wills a little in stealth, or possibly make other adjustments, but that is just ONE idea for balancing. Many others are viable. Its not my main class anymore but SE is the problem, not a solution and needs to be fixed to be an EXECUTION/FINISHER and not an opener.
Im not defending the FS+SE build because i dont use it, i cant stack 30k/40k power for that...im low item level....but posting a nerf thread like you trying to nerf executioner path because ppl abuse it without thinking in pve is off of topic, because this are the kind of request that ends destroying the class.
All agree that SE piercing damage must be removed, but asking to nerf the exe path is talk about hurting pve players which are the mayority in this game....just post this in the pve section asking to adjust exe path and daily powers and you will see all the flame you get. If they adjust one daily, the have to adjust all the dailies to not "sinergyze" with exe feats.
This post is not offering a single solution where TRs lose SE and in return feats and other powers get a rework to compensate that damage.
Everybody is talking and giving ideas about SE changes but not about a feats/powers/paths buffs.... so you are posting nerf solutions and giving nothing...And just add this thread with the CB/deflect severity/ITC/stealth nerf posts that are running around, and your nerf crusade is complete.
like i said before, shows us a video with a build that can kill an equal geared player, and dont use SE. or post your TR class rework where every feat and power is adjusted and the pve community remains untouchable.
I'm really sort of at a loss as to what you're getting at here so I'll try my best to address your issues as best as I can make them out. I have no problem with S.E., I haven't said anything about SE. I have no problem with executioner path or power stacking or first strike. Any of these feats/dailies/passives are fine by me. The issue I'm addressing is very specific. It deals with using all three in a synergistic fashion to be able to take players from full health to death.
It is very simple to stack 30K + power, using the shadowborn feat in the executioner tree "increases the power rating of your next attack by 100%", First strike at rank 4 gives you an additional 75% damage bonus, arterial cut grants an additional 15% crit severity, vorpal of course grants 50% additional crit severity. When you add all these bonuses together you can hit for over 200K if you're BIS. You can easily hit 180K above 3K IL.
I would love to talk with PVE rogues to ask how they incorporate first strike because you must leave combat for it to reset after the first blow. I'd honestly be surprised if it was used frequently in PVE. I don't want to "nerf the executioner path". If you had read anything I posted my suggestion was to make adjustments to the First strike passive.
I have no desire to destroy the class, I actually have a BIS TR. The class is fine, there are multiple ways to play it. If you go high recovery you can spam SB and CB forever. However, this is apparently off limits, I'm not allowed to use that as a solution. So if you go partial power partial recovery you can use SE which will max out at around 80-100K and combine it with good rotations to kill other players. Even 100K will still one shot pugs with low HP. The difference is that you have other utility and can actually offer more to your team than simply one shotting and running away.
I feel you are not reading the other posts, or that you are simply misunderstanding the point. However, it's interesting that you talk about me killing Pugs with my HR (which also uses piercing damage). I do find it ironic when TRs complain about piercing damage while defending their own vehemently.
I digress however, what I propose would not effect the class over all whatsoever, it's simply an adjustment to a single passive that will negate these overperforming builds that can offer little else in terms of playability and utility.
As far as posting videos for your specific preferences using your specific limitations, I feel that you may be a little excessive in your request.
I would love to talk with PVE rogues to ask how they incorporate first strike because you must leave combat for it to reset after the first blow. I'd honestly be surprised if it was used frequently in PVE. I don't want to "nerf the executioner path". If you had read anything I posted my suggestion was to make adjustments to the First strike passive.
^^
FS is used to farm solo pve content if you dont know, HEs, mini dungeons, trash mob....everything that is solo content, slot FS and dazing strike, lashing blade, whirlwind of blades, etc, and all the run is done in a half of the time. only In 5 players runs in useless.
so tell us, how to adjust FS+arterial cut+vorpal+shadowborn that are used in pve, just to remove SE, and how to compensate that lost with feats/powers/path rework. This entire post as you say, is to adress a very specific issue, but by doing that you should post what else has to be done to improve lets say atwill and encounter power damage. In other words, asking for a SE fix without giving a compensation, is unacceptable.
i removed the HR part, because is another topic.
A video? of course, paper and words tell nothing, prove what you say.
Perhaps you can post a video of how effective First Strike is in mini dungeons so I can gain a better understanding of its use in PVE. I don't pretend to be a PVE expert as most content is run with your eyes closed anyway, I recognize fully that some people want to be the paingiver in dungeons and such and I'm always up for hearing how they achieved that. If FS is a huge damage increase in dungeons then I would say something simple like halving it's effectiveness in PVP would likely be enough.
It's a relatively simple solution, took me about the length of time of reading your rebuttal, which again seems to only be about having me post videos for you (gosh guy at least take me out to dinner first
If you notice, yet again, I never asked for those feats to be changed, primarily because I think it's just first strike that could use a minor adjustment for PVP and the one shot build would disappear.
Of course i like it, fire wheel+FS+WB(+-150K) is a 1 shot to farm HEs in solo content, FS+LB+lurker=250k, FS+DS+lurker=100k, with only 28k power and a defensive pvp build. A pve TR will deal much more damage with a FS.
As i said in 5 man runs FS is useless, but for solo, cleans the path from trash mob in the half of the time.
is the piercing damage SE has what needs the fix, not FS, FS is used in pve, SE is not used in pve, but again, removing SE involves that 50k to 80k(post mitigation) lashing blades or why not, shadow strikes with 10 secs cd can happen in compensation.
If you notice, yet again, I never asked for those feats to be changed
then what you ask when you say to adjust exe path to not boost damage...this is what you wrote:
Executioner tree should be adjusted so it doesn't synergize so well with first strike.
is shadowborn/arterial cut/deathknell/last moments/FS that boost not only SE but any other power, nerfing any of them with will hurt pve...is piercing damage SE has not FS.
a full self buffed TR with 20k power, 12k armp, perfect vorpal, FS, lurker assault, invisible infiltrator, lashing blade deals around 30k on a 3,5k GWF which means FS is not the issue. the nerf in SE is right, but not giving others sources of damage cant happen both at the same time.
However, if you find it particularly effective in clearing solo material, I'll take your word that it's a very good loadout for that content.
One thing I'd like to address here is something that I feel you never understood about this post as evidenced by your repetition of it:
"Everybody is talking and giving ideas about SE changes but not about a feats/powers/paths buffs.... so you are posting nerf solutions and giving nothing...And just add this thread with the CB/deflect severity/ITC/stealth nerf posts that are running around, and your nerf crusade is complete.?"
I tried repeating it several times but apparently it's difficult to understand that I don't want to change SE. I don't necessarily want to change any feats/paths/or powers. I am not on a crusade, and I have no desire to affect PVE abilities on the TR. For that matter, this poll has nothing to do with CB/Deflect severity/ITC/Stealth or any such class mechanics. It's interesting that you seem to be laying all these forum discussions at my feet as though I'm somehow involved in them.
The only reason I mentioned changing the feats of the executioner tree was because I wondered if anyone would come up with a creative way to address this overperforming build without affecting the Exe as a whole.
TR Class rework is coming and I hope they will give TR some interesting damage buffs so that at some point they won't have to rely on dailies for the vast majority of their damage. Deflection and deflect severity are a completely different discussion... it is interesting that a Deflection build TR can get 96% deflection and 85% deflection severity potted in PVP. That's really, really tanky, combine that with ITC and it makes for an invulverable TR. Combine that with stealth and they will basically never die.
It will be interesting to see how the class ends up being reworked. I hope it will make playing my TR even more fun
Is SE what needs the change not FS or any feat in the exe tree...you can change FS and the exe tree and SE will be indirectly nerfed, but thats not the right way cuz it will hurt other content...FS can stay as it is also could have a boost for a 100% damage increase, and yet if you use it in an encouter power in pvp it wouldnt do much...
This threads must target piercing damage only to completely remove it, not passives and feats which boost that damage and are not the main reason of the problem, since is proved than in mitigable damage, those powers/feats work fine.
Well I've stated my opinion several times.I don't think I have anything else to add to that.
100k SE+50k shadow of demise is a insta death for most players, you would nerf FS, but SE and the piercing damage remains the same. Only BiS 4k players with more than 150k HP get the benefits. That is like cutting the branches(FS) of a tree, when you have to cut the roots(SE).
It's very simple for them to adjust a single passive by halving it's effectiveness in PVP. RIght now SE is absolutely needed in PVP till a complete rework grants damage to the TR from encounters again. This poll was not meant to address the overall class issues of TR as I've already stated, just one single aspect that allows medium IL TRs to hit for ridiculous numbers in PVP. I'll leave the rest of the potential class changes to you TRs to hash out
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