Astral Diamonds earnings chart for invocations.

omegarealities

Does anyone know of a chart that shows the base earnings of Astral Diamonds per invocation?

ltsmithneko

omegarealities#7219 said:

Does anyone know of a chart that shows the base earnings of Astral Diamonds per invocation?

No point of showing you a chart for it due to the changes happening to it in mod 10. :P It'll just be a bonus % to earning instead.

xalorus

@itsmithneko I don't get the tongue face after every comment. Supposed to be anime or something? Just curious...smh.

iccyasd

xalorus said:

@itsmithneko I don't get the tongue face after every comment. Supposed to be anime or something? Just curious...smh.

shes a cat =P

ltsmithneko

iccyasd said:

xalorus said:

@itsmithneko I don't get the tongue face after every comment. Supposed to be anime or something? Just curious...smh.

shes a cat =P

First off im a guy... lol Not the the first to mistaken that. As for the " :P " personally I like using emotes to express how I feel, since I never consider myself "normal" in that sense. I use the face to represent my average "different" feeling in another term you can use is open minded to a point of not feeling at ease to a normal state, if that makes any sense. Like things I post I tend to think tad bit differently than what is written for your eyes to read. Not for the reason of flaming nor anything of that nature, but more or less like a test of knowing more, concluding things, personally I could write out a statement saying ways to fix certain things in this game that are flawed even before release, just over the sense that I read the downfalls of each way and figure a way around them. New vs old, there's ways they can go about things better than certain things in the current preveiw, I can tell you right now. there's a better way to go about the invoking, than the new and old current way, certain people know the answer to that.Best part it'll pretty much stop botting with invoking, unless they want the coins I guess? Plus give the Devs what they want, which is players playing the game for the AD, instead of botting for it, and not playing at all. Simple words, why not remove ad entirely from invoking, and just up the Daily Refinement by a tiny bit, nothing game changing, and up the ad reward from skirmishes, n' dungeons, pvp either the literal amount they give you, or how many times you'll get it, such as currently you'll get something like 5,800ad from a dungeon 2x times in a day, and a small amount after that, why not 3x? I know for a fact not many people do 2x skirmishes, 2x dungeons, and 2x pvp matches everyday now do they? So if thats upped and invoking no longer gives any kind of bonus(which could still be botted, might make even more ad than before, salvaging blah blah blah) It'll make the players, play more, feel abit more rewarded, make the players botting to have to play to get their ad(note that whole bonus %ad earned will raise ring prices up that people sell) Sure giving players more ad that way, but thats only in one way, ring farming. Now im not sure if this made any sense at this point I think im rambling, im half asleep, n' losing my thought in more thoughts.... Might have left off something without ending it. -~- Someone translate whatever Ive written imma pass out now, thanks.

armadeonx

Yeah I'd be into 3 x dungeons etc for AD instead of 2 as an alternative to AD from invokes. Invokes are a waste of time. Ok you can get a coal ward once every 6 months, but really, just add them as possible T2 drops from end boss chests and remove invoking completely!

cesar

ltsmithneko said:

No point of showing you a chart for it due to the changes happening to it in mod 10. :P It'll just be a bonus % to earning instead.

Could you elaborate, please?

Thx!

zman81420

Ha a co ward once every 6 months. I have never seen one from the vault of piety. Hence I say in neverwinter there is no god.

ecrana

armadeonx said:

Ok you can get a coal ward once every 6 months, but really, just add them as possible T2 drops from end boss chests and remove invoking completely!

I like the idea of adding coal wards as drops and hopefully they wouldn't be as rare as the +5 rings.

armadeonx

Lol I bet they would be Zman, you need more characters! I actually average at about 1 every 3 months but that's with 6 characters doing the full invoke cycle...

ltsmithneko

cesar#6784 said:

ltsmithneko said:

No point of showing you a chart for it due to the changes happening to it in mod 10. :P It'll just be a bonus % to earning instead.

Could you elaborate, please?

Thx!

Go to the preview patch notes it's all in there. :P

kreatyve

The amount of Astral Diamonds you get with each invoke differs by your character level, and also VIP can effect it, so making a chart would require some work.

iccyasd

ltsmithneko said:

iccyasd said:

xalorus said:

@itsmithneko I don't get the tongue face after every comment. Supposed to be anime or something? Just curious...smh.

shes a cat =P

First off im a guy... lol Not the the first to mistaken that. As for the " :P " personally I like using emotes to express how I feel, since I never consider myself "normal" in that sense. I use the face to represent my average "different" feeling in another term you can use is open minded to a point of not feeling at ease to a normal state, if that makes any sense. Like things I post I tend to think tad bit differently than what is written for your eyes to read. Not for the reason of flaming nor anything of that nature, but more or less like a test of knowing more, concluding things, personally I could write out a statement saying ways to fix certain things in this game that are flawed even before release, just over the sense that I read the downfalls of each way and figure a way around them. New vs old, there's ways they can go about things better than certain things in the current preveiw, I can tell you right now. there's a better way to go about the invoking, than the new and old current way, certain people know the answer to that.Best part it'll pretty much stop botting with invoking, unless they want the coins I guess? Plus give the Devs what they want, which is players playing the game for the AD, instead of botting for it, and not playing at all. Simple words, why not remove ad entirely from invoking, and just up the Daily Refinement by a tiny bit, nothing game changing, and up the ad reward from skirmishes, n' dungeons, pvp either the literal amount they give you, or how many times you'll get it, such as currently you'll get something like 5,800ad from a dungeon 2x times in a day, and a small amount after that, why not 3x? I know for a fact not many people do 2x skirmishes, 2x dungeons, and 2x pvp matches everyday now do they? So if thats upped and invoking no longer gives any kind of bonus(which could still be botted, might make even more ad than before, salvaging blah blah blah) It'll make the players, play more, feel abit more rewarded, make the players botting to have to play to get their ad(note that whole bonus %ad earned will raise ring prices up that people sell) Sure giving players more ad that way, but thats only in one way, ring farming. Now im not sure if this made any sense at this point I think im rambling, im half asleep, n' losing my thought in more thoughts.... Might have left off something without ending it. -~- Someone translate whatever Ive written imma pass out now, thanks.

i only said 3 words, but you replied me a wall, im afraid of you now

omegarealities

kreatyve said:

The amount of Astral Diamonds you get with each invoke differs by your character level, and also VIP can effect it, so making a chart would require some work.

Thanks for the answers. I have VIP, so that was why I was asking for the base amount, which of course will be mute.

I have several toons, so I work on one for a while and invoke on the others. Would not even know how to set up a bot (if that is even possible one XBOX), and would not, even if I knew how. So at the 15, 30, 45, 60 and 90 min marks, I stop play and invoke the toons so hopefully I can get enough AD so I can get enough Zen to pay for VIP without investing real money in the game.

Skirmishes and Doungeon are fine if you can get randoms together that play as a team, instead of running around by themselves. Would play with friends, but most have left the game or live in a different time zone.

At least the is a little hope with the Zen, at least until the price skyrockets again.

moogie101

omegarealities#7219 said:

kreatyve said:

The amount of Astral Diamonds you get with each invoke differs by your character level, and also VIP can effect it, so making a chart would require some work.

Thanks for the answers. I have VIP, so that was why I was asking for the base amount, which of course will be mute.

I have several toons, so I work on one for a while and invoke on the others. Would not even know how to set up a bot (if that is even possible one XBOX), and would not, even if I knew how. So at the 15, 30, 45, 60 and 90 min marks, I stop play and invoke the toons so hopefully I can get enough AD so I can get enough Zen to pay for VIP without investing real money in the game.

Skirmishes and Doungeon are fine if you can get randoms together that play as a team, instead of running around by themselves. Would play with friends, but most have left the game or live in a different time zone.

At least the is a little hope with the Zen, at least until the price skyrockets again.

I may have read it wrong but from my understanding how you do things (which I also do) is about to end as you won't be able to invoke on additional characters to gain AD, instead you'll get an additional % bonus when that specific character earns AD rather than gaining it automatically from Invoking. I presume the idea is to stop these tactics of earning loads of "free" AD.

omegarealities

moogie101#4741 said:

omegarealities#7219 said:

kreatyve said:

The amount of Astral Diamonds you get with each invoke differs by your character level, and also VIP can effect it, so making a chart would require some work.

Thanks for the answers. I have VIP, so that was why I was asking for the base amount, which of course will be mute.

I have several toons, so I work on one for a while and invoke on the others. Would not even know how to set up a bot (if that is even possible one XBOX), and would not, even if I knew how. So at the 15, 30, 45, 60 and 90 min marks, I stop play and invoke the toons so hopefully I can get enough AD so I can get enough Zen to pay for VIP without investing real money in the game.

Skirmishes and Doungeon are fine if you can get randoms together that play as a team, instead of running around by themselves. Would play with friends, but most have left the game or live in a different time zone.

At least the is a little hope with the Zen, at least until the price skyrockets again.

I may have read it wrong but from my understanding how you do things (which I also do) is about to end as you won't be able to invoke on additional characters to gain AD, instead you'll get an additional % bonus when that specific character earns AD rather than gaining it automatically from Invoking. I presume the idea is to stop these tactics of earning loads of "free" AD.

That's what I understood too. But what exactly qualifies as "playing" the game. Do you have to play a couple hours to get the right to invoke? It seems to be getting more and more difficult for the casual player to succeed in the game.

armadeonx

I believe it's related to the AD earning tasks - 2 x dungeons, skirmishes and pvp matches.

I believe the invokes will give you increased amounts based on how many days you've invoked continuously. What I don't know is if you'll make as much/more than the previous method if you skip one of the 3 tasks.

omegarealities

armadeonx said:

I believe it's related to the AD earning tasks - 2 x dungeons, skirmishes and pvp matches.

I believe the invokes will give you increased amounts based on how many days you've invoked continuously. What I don't know is if you'll make as much/more than the previous method if you skip one of the 3 tasks.

That's what I am afraid of. I tend to avoid PvP, I'm just not good at it. If they are going to penalize me because I am not good at something, I don't know if sticking around will be worth it.

satniteeduardo

I don't currently invoke purely for AD. Weekdays I load every toon twice to reset professions and invoke. The 2nd invoke is pretty useles - just a grey refining stone.

Weekends I invoke fully on every toon.

I will wait and see exactly how things work after the changes.

My concern with the changes is I have around 3 to 4 (or more) part time mains rather than one main. Some days I run on my GF for example. Others I run on my Cleric or DPS. The changes sound like you need to be fulltime on toons to get max advantage. And stick with that toon.

I understand the desire to earn AD from playing but the changes (if I have read them right) will be more beneficial to single toon players than multitoon players even though the multitoon players may play more dungeons overall given they are the addicted nutcases like me lol

xkrz8xdeath

True how are going to be able to stick to one character with all this nerfed classes going on track was my main got nerfed pally I spent money on again nerfed so now I gave up on pally making gf and if I will just give up

ltsmithneko

iccyasd said:

ltsmithneko said:

iccyasd said:

xalorus said:

@itsmithneko I don't get the tongue face after every comment. Supposed to be anime or something? Just curious...smh.

shes a cat =P

First off im a guy... lol Not the the first to mistaken that. As for the " :P " personally I like using emotes to express how I feel, since I never consider myself "normal" in that sense. I use the face to represent my average "different" feeling in another term you can use is open minded to a point of not feeling at ease to a normal state, if that makes any sense. Like things I post I tend to think tad bit differently than what is written for your eyes to read. Not for the reason of flaming nor anything of that nature, but more or less like a test of knowing more, concluding things, personally I could write out a statement saying ways to fix certain things in this game that are flawed even before release, just over the sense that I read the downfalls of each way and figure a way around them. New vs old, there's ways they can go about things better than certain things in the current preveiw, I can tell you right now. there's a better way to go about the invoking, than the new and old current way, certain people know the answer to that.Best part it'll pretty much stop botting with invoking, unless they want the coins I guess? Plus give the Devs what they want, which is players playing the game for the AD, instead of botting for it, and not playing at all. Simple words, why not remove ad entirely from invoking, and just up the Daily Refinement by a tiny bit, nothing game changing, and up the ad reward from skirmishes, n' dungeons, pvp either the literal amount they give you, or how many times you'll get it, such as currently you'll get something like 5,800ad from a dungeon 2x times in a day, and a small amount after that, why not 3x? I know for a fact not many people do 2x skirmishes, 2x dungeons, and 2x pvp matches everyday now do they? So if thats upped and invoking no longer gives any kind of bonus(which could still be botted, might make even more ad than before, salvaging blah blah blah) It'll make the players, play more, feel abit more rewarded, make the players botting to have to play to get their ad(note that whole bonus %ad earned will raise ring prices up that people sell) Sure giving players more ad that way, but thats only in one way, ring farming. Now im not sure if this made any sense at this point I think im rambling, im half asleep, n' losing my thought in more thoughts.... Might have left off something without ending it. -~- Someone translate whatever Ive written imma pass out now, thanks.

i only said 3 words, but you replied me a wall, im afraid of you now

Sorry... .x.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

iccyasd

ltsmithneko said:

iccyasd said:

ltsmithneko said:

iccyasd said:

xalorus said:

@itsmithneko I don't get the tongue face after every comment. Supposed to be anime or something? Just curious...smh.

shes a cat =P

First off im a guy... lol Not the the first to mistaken that. As for the " :P " personally I like using emotes to express how I feel, since I never consider myself "normal" in that sense. I use the face to represent my average "different" feeling in another term you can use is open minded to a point of not feeling at ease to a normal state, if that makes any sense. Like things I post I tend to think tad bit differently than what is written for your eyes to read. Not for the reason of flaming nor anything of that nature, but more or less like a test of knowing more, concluding things, personally I could write out a statement saying ways to fix certain things in this game that are flawed even before release, just over the sense that I read the downfalls of each way and figure a way around them. New vs old, there's ways they can go about things better than certain things in the current preveiw, I can tell you right now. there's a better way to go about the invoking, than the new and old current way, certain people know the answer to that.Best part it'll pretty much stop botting with invoking, unless they want the coins I guess? Plus give the Devs what they want, which is players playing the game for the AD, instead of botting for it, and not playing at all. Simple words, why not remove ad entirely from invoking, and just up the Daily Refinement by a tiny bit, nothing game changing, and up the ad reward from skirmishes, n' dungeons, pvp either the literal amount they give you, or how many times you'll get it, such as currently you'll get something like 5,800ad from a dungeon 2x times in a day, and a small amount after that, why not 3x? I know for a fact not many people do 2x skirmishes, 2x dungeons, and 2x pvp matches everyday now do they? So if thats upped and invoking no longer gives any kind of bonus(which could still be botted, might make even more ad than before, salvaging blah blah blah) It'll make the players, play more, feel abit more rewarded, make the players botting to have to play to get their ad(note that whole bonus %ad earned will raise ring prices up that people sell) Sure giving players more ad that way, but thats only in one way, ring farming. Now im not sure if this made any sense at this point I think im rambling, im half asleep, n' losing my thought in more thoughts.... Might have left off something without ending it. -~- Someone translate whatever Ive written imma pass out now, thanks.

i only said 3 words, but you replied me a wall, im afraid of you now

Sorry... .x.

just joking :P

cscriv79

Just to confirm, there is not reset time on the bonus AD, there is a limit that can be stored which should not be able to be hit with a week of only invoking or more. Again, if you play "normally" you should be able to claim more AD from this than you would have previously. It really should only affect characters who ONLY invoked and did nothing else.

-Panderus

http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/playstation/neverwinter/news/detail/10100003-developer-notes:-storm-king's-thunder-part-2

I like the use of 'normally'

I know players in my guild that have 10 chars and invoke on all them daily while doing things on their main. Is this within the 'normal' category?

You can read through this for changes too:
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1219207/storm-kings-thunder-preview-patch-notes-nw-65-20160720a-0/p1

cscriv79

SCENARIO OF THE CASUAL PLAYER:
1 character can invoke 6 times a day for a 50% bonus at 3600 unrefined AD. This means that you would need to earn 7200 raw AD and refine it to get the max 3600 per day. The unused bonus rolls over to a maximum cap of 100,000 bonus AD, or where you would need 200,000 raw AD to get the full bonus.

So, lets say you have 1 account with 5 character slots, and you only have time/desire/money to play on 1 character. The other 4 you currently use to modestly boost your AD income.

Lets also say you are sufficiently active to gain 10 items for salvage per day, from seals and dungeons/skirmishes/etc. This may be a stretch for some of you, but 10 items is about equal to 3 skirmishes, 4 dungeons + seals.

Of those 10 items, on average you would earn 7 blue items and 3 purple.
This will be the basis of my comparison. Also, I am not including any kind of VIP bonus.

So, from 5 characters (assume all lvl 70), you earn 3000 AD each for a total of 15000AD per day.
You can salvage the 7 blue at 3000AD each for 21000AD on 1 character that very day.
You can salvage the 3 purple for (at an average, I know rings and things differ...) of 4000AD for 12000AD on the same character, and hit the 36k refine max.

So, your total for the day: 15000 + 21000 + 12000 = 48000AD. You only used salvage on 1 characters and got all your AD in 1 day.

With the new system:
Invoking gets you 0 AD but gets you 3600 bonus AD at 50% refined. This means that you will need to have NO MORE THAN 7200 AD salvaged on each character or you are THROWING AWAY AD WITH NO BONUS.

You still earn 10 items per day, 7 blue and 3 epic. But, wait, the amounts have changed.
Blues are now 25% less... only 2k each. Purples are now 33% more, so average moves up to 5200.
7 blues at 2000 each = 14000 AD.
3 purples at 5200 each = 15600 AD. (****I know this is an average...just permit the analysis***)
But, remember, you should only salvage up to 7200 per day on any ONE character, OR you lose out on the BONUS AD. You CAN store the bonus, but you will NOT GET the AD every day.
So, in order to get the maximum bonus of AD every day, you would need to divide up your salvage even more than usual and salvage on characters that have the MAXIMUM bonus.
So, on 1 toon, you can salvage 1 blue/1epic for 7200 + 3600 AD = 10800AD
On a 2nd toon, you can salvage 1 blue/1 epic for 7200 +3600 AD = 10800AD
On a third toon, you can salvage 1 blue/1 epic for 7200 + 3600 AD = 10800AD
On a fourth toon, you can salvage 3 blues for 6000 + 3000AD = 9000 AD (you should not do a 4th blue, because it would go over daily max). On this toon, you will have 600 bonus carried over to the next day. Is there any indicator how much? I hope there is a visible indicator easily seen on the character.
On a fifth toon, you can salvage 1 blue for 2000 + 1000 AD = 3000AD, and carry over 2600 bonus to the next day.
Your total from salvage on 5 toons = 44400 AD.

Lets say you don't want to invoke anymore on all 5 characters, because its a drag, you just salvage all items on the 1 character like before, for the 36k limit.
7 blues at 2000 each =14000
3 epics at 5200 each = 15600
bonus AD from salvaging 3600
Your total AD from doing the same thing as before: 33200 AD.

Let's compare.
Current system: 48000AD with full invokes on 5 characters, 10 items, salvaged on 1 character.
Proposed system: 44400AD with full invokes on 5 characters, 10 items, salvaged on 5 characters OR 33200AD if you only full invoke on 1 character and nothing on the other 4 and salvage on only 1 character.


Add in VIP, and it only adds how many characters you will NEED to invoke every day to get the bonus AD.

The proposed system does not decrease the number of invokes a player would do to get similar AD on unused characters. It will make the invokes necessary so that the bonus for the AD on salvageable items is present.

My math is not rock solid, as I am 'guessing' at the value of epic salvage across the board, and some epic items are changing in their base value anyway. I chose 4000 and 5200 based on an average.

CONCLUSION TO ABOVE SCENARIO:
The only way to make up for the lack of AD from each character's invoking is to utilize the bonus, and this requires more effort overall from the same player for what-looks-like less rewards. Or, to put it another way: the only way to approach the AD you are currently making with X characters invoking every day, is to setup a system of salvage that utilizes the bonus on each character and not going over it until all the bonuses are used.

Source: http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/comment/12855963?sso=eyJuYW1lIjoiIiwicGhvdG91cmwiOiIiLCJjbGllbnRfaWQiOiIxNDQzOTY4OTgxIn0=+8d362e0ddc8a95f2327b4e3dc2aab05a6e46ad73+1470394651+hmacsha1

cscriv79

A SECOND SCENARIO:
If you look at my mathematical scenario above, it assumes a casual player with 5 characters in 1 account, but the player only plays one character and invokes/salvages on the rest. This turned out to be worse in AD for that player.

But, what about a player that PLAYS on all 5 characters, is it worse?

The answer depends on whether daily/weekly quests that grant AD generate unrefined AD on the bonus. I just tested on preview today (after the patch) by doing the Weekly Dread Ring quest that grants 4500 unrefined AD. I performed the quest after 1 invoke, so if it grants bonus AD, I should receive 300 AD more. I received 4800AD, not 4500. So, the conclusion is that daily and weekly quests can CONSUME the 3600 AD bonus.

So, lets go back to a player that plays on 5 lvl 70 characters.
Lets say the player does 1 dungeon and 1 skirmish per day on each player, invokes to maximum on each character, and has 1 blue/1 epic item to salvage on each character. I will not include VIP in this mathematical analysis.

Current Invoke System: 5 characters x 3000 AD from invoking = 15000AD.
1 Skirmish (average) =2500 AD x 5 characters = 12500 AD
1 Dungeon (average) = 5000 AD x 5 characters = 25000 AD
1 blue item = 3000 AD x 5 characters = 15000 AD
1 epic item (average) = 4000 AD x 5 characters = 20000 AD
Total AD = 87500 AD

Proposed System: 5 characters invoking full get 3600 AD bonus each
1 skirmish (average) = 2500 AD x 5 characters = 12500
1 Dungeon = 5000 AD x 5 characters = 25000AD
Bonus AD from 1 dungeon and 1 skirmish AFTER number full invoke = 3600AD x 5 characters = 18000AD
Bonus AD from 1 dungeon and 1 skirmish if completed before full invokes = NOT 3600 AD!!!!
1 blue item = 2000AD x 5 characters = 10000AD
1 epic item 5200AD x 5 characters = 26000AD
Total AD = 91500 AD.

CONCLUSION WITH A CAVEAT:
This is more than the scenario where the same player under the current system is invoking 5 times and running 1 dungeon/1 skirmish/ 2 salvages each day. However, there is ONE HUGE, MONUMENTAL, GROSS FLAW!!!

You make MORE AD this way IF and ONLY IF you WAIT to run anything/salvage AFTER you have invoked and gain the 3600 bonus (or you have it stored up from other days when you only invoked and did nothing)!
So, you MUST invoke fully (with a 4 hour wait period) and THEN run dailies/weeklies/salvages with the 3600 bonus ready.

If you do not wait (or have the bonus stored up), the amount you have available for the bonus will be less, in the steps provided by the invoke.

Source: http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/comment/12855997?sso=eyJuYW1lIjoiIiwicGhvdG91cmwiOiIiLCJjbGllbnRfaWQiOiIxNDQzOTY4OTgxIn0=+e46dad3361288b0b976c6ae736b258caf84a9235+1470395046+hmacsha1

omegarealities

Looks WAY too complicated.

mrroofer

It is your basic player is not gonna want to go thru all that besides I make my ad on the trade house lol people are gonna get annoyed with this probably very fast

ltsmithneko

I personally invoke on one of my characters and I don't want to stand around for 4 hours... I like sitting in moonstone n' all,but doing that... Thats going to draw me further away from this method... :T I don't think any will enjoy that tbh... Gives me more reason to play something else than NW for thr first four hours... Not sure if thats the greaest plan by them.

mordekai

omegarealities#7219 said:

armadeonx said:

I believe it's related to the AD earning tasks - 2 x dungeons, skirmishes and pvp matches.

I believe the invokes will give you increased amounts based on how many days you've invoked continuously. What I don't know is if you'll make as much/more than the previous method if you skip one of the 3 tasks.

That's what I am afraid of. I tend to avoid PvP, I'm just not good at it. If they are going to penalize me because I am not good at something, I don't know if sticking around will be worth it.

I'm of the same mind, but would be less so if PVP were more open to casual play.

I just don't enjoy the disparity at post 70 and if invoking "rewards" me with a bonus on PVP ADs then it will be like saying "your God said no this time"

mrroofer

Haha. Yeah when you reach level 70 PVP is a joke I'm a 3400 item score I do PVP once in a blue moon then I'll walk in there and get one shot by a rogue really? Not to mention the fact that matchmaking is ridiculous every time I queue for PVP I always get stuck in a group with a cleric a guardian fighter and a couple great weapon Fighters and always go up against two roguess a control wizard and 2 high dps I don't think I've been on a winning group in a month LOL