klangeddinMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 882Arc User
I agree with the spirit of these changes, but they totally missed the mark in the execution. And they gave nothing to Protector, what a joke. Actually, they even nerfed Villain's Menace. The only fix it needed was the unability to stack upon itself, but by itself it was fine, there was nothing wrong with it. And Iron Warrior is still the same old HAMSTER skill, sigh...
@urabask yup, my point earlier as well. Some people don't realize how early max DR is reached in this game. At the same time it is senselss to add deflect over defense if you are good at blocking, so HP is best way to go. And the guild HP boon is monsteous over any other source of HP. This puts another premium on high lvl guilds.
I wish someone would explain to me how. I've got all my defence boons, Rank 9 Azure's in all my defence slots (including my purple augment pet) and I'm at 63% damage ignored - 17% left to go.
Are you basing that comment on using a negation enchant as well?
hang on, sorry I just read this now, damage ignored?
"As the good archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself." -Danilo Thann[/quote]
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lantern22Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,111Arc User
no striker class will use a defender companion to do dungeons since 1. it dies instantly and it's an AI 2. they loose alot DPS by switchin to a defender companion and not a striker companion.
Yeti
and I see defender pets all the time
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lantern22Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,111Arc User
@urabask yup, my point earlier as well. Some people don't realize how early max DR is reached in this game. At the same time it is senselss to add deflect over defense if you are good at blocking, so HP is best way to go. And the guild HP boon is monsteous over any other source of HP. This puts another premium on high lvl guilds.
I wish someone would explain to me how. I've got all my defence boons, Rank 9 Azure's in all my defence slots (including my purple augment pet) and I'm at 63% damage ignored - 17% left to go.
Are you basing that comment on using a negation enchant as well?
hang on, sorry I just read this now, damage ignored?
Sorry typo, should have been Damage Resistance - oops
I see this posted a lot by people and I don't think it's true at all. I've grouped with paladins who have pulled bosses from me even though I'm spamming. Both classes at certain times struggle with threat with the current crazy numbers dps puts out compared to what they use to be. Threat should have been adjusted long ago for both tank classes.
@urabask yup, my point earlier as well. Some people don't realize how early max DR is reached in this game. At the same time it is senselss to add deflect over defense if you are good at blocking, so HP is best way to go. And the guild HP boon is monsteous over any other source of HP. This puts another premium on high lvl guilds.
I wish someone would explain to me how. I've got all my defence boons, Rank 9 Azure's in all my defence slots (including my purple augment pet) and I'm at 63% damage ignored - 17% left to go.
Are you basing that comment on using a negation enchant as well?
hang on, sorry I just read this now, damage ignored?
Sorry typo, should have been Damage Resistance - oops
oh ok. No, I don't include Negation, Try including the bonus Def you get from Twisted with max paranoia and Sudden + Rising defense rings, that should be enough.
"As the good archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself." -Danilo Thann[/quote]
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klangeddinMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 882Arc User
I see this posted a lot by people and I don't think it's true at all. I've grouped with paladins who have pulled bosses from me even though I'm spamming. Both classes at certain times struggle with threat with the current crazy numbers dps puts out compared to what they use to be. Threat should have been adjusted long ago for both tank classes.
are you sure you are markin the boss properly? askin for the threat on mark to stack over another that wont be bad, but like i mentioned the reason why u loose aggro is because of the ITF buff, since that wont be a problem, the DPS will be normal, so the DPS wont take the aggro anymore. so this is another + for a GF to be picked up as a tank.
The paladin has a mark that makes whoever hits the boss generate threat automatically for him. So yeah, you can't compete because the more you spam aggro, the more aggro the paladin gets as well... And it's not like the paladin himself is short of taunts either.
Just to give an idea of the stats as they can be seen (not much testing done, but anyway)
Damage: 1476-1805 (purple drowned) Power: 6653
Preview / Live Surge = 6603-7916 / 6574-7882 WMS = 11601-13909 (½ to secondary) / 3308-3966 (way lower than 3300 to secondary) LS = 11474-13756 (8.9 sec...) / 15194-18217 (5.9 sec) AoD = 16523-19809 (11.2 sec) (does about 10k damage in those 5 secs...) / 16451-19723 (11.9 sec) Kneebreaker = 25817-30952 (10.4 sec) / 21421-25681 (10.4 sec) CS = 16657-19969 (8.9 sec) / 8614-10327 (7.4 sec)
Also seeing !EF! *somenumber* when on preview, but I dunno if that's new as I haven't used that server since early last year.
Guess I'll be spamming WMS even more when on my own, but I'm seeing my ability to tank and help others with buffs as having been reduced rather drastically. I suppose it was easier to nerf than it was to figure out how to prevent buffs from stacking, like HG+ITF and such.
P.S. Potion of grand healing, 25k. Finally.
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
There is much to be evaluated with these first proposed, changes, but I will, once again, offer the historical perspective regarding ITF.
The original ITF from closed beta was 5% dmg boost + 5% dmg per rank and it was stackable. So, at level 60, you could have 15% dmg boost, and 20% if you were Tactician. Because it was stackable, 2 GFs in a party could provide more damage boost.
Then, Developers removed the ability for ITF to stack. When this happened, GFs WERE CONSISTENTLY EXCLUDED FROM PVE CONTENT. The reason was that the ITF bonus was not as great as could be gained by adding a dps player instead and running with 1 cleric. There was no need to tank. GFs could only beg to get into PvE parties (e.g., Temple of Spider), because dps was needed.
It was not until power creep permitted dpsers not to care about makeup of party, because they could solo it anyway, that GFs started to find a more consistent admittance into parties. Before this, a GF was wanted only to kite in Frozen Heart, and maybe at Spellplague. I know. I was there, so don't tell me it isn't true. I suffered through that very bad time.
Then, came an ITF change that made the GF the hub of buffs. The GF didn't need to tank, because the permabubble OP could do that. The GF just needed to spam ITF and do a little damage. Then, the OP got hit with the hammer, and the GF had to do tanking duties while also spamming ITF for PvE. But it was then that power creep swept in so much that a GF really does not need to tank. DPS + ITF buff is enough to just burn everything (at high TIL).
The proposed changes take the GF back towards its tanking roots, for which I am glad. However, and this is a big HOWEVER, the proposed change may EXCLUDE GFs from parties because tanking may not be as necessary by the GF. As pointed out, with the power creep still available, defender companions can tank in the place of GFs, and parties without GFs can be done. No problem. The aggro of the GF will not matter, since it is taken by the companion. The buff of the GF will be less than the damage another dpser can provide.
The 'balance' for ITF should be this: 1) The buff ITF gives should be equal to the choice of the party to select the GF over a dps, AND at the same time, select a dps over a GF. The damage bonus from ITF should be equal with a dpser. Perhaps that is why the 25% was chosen. 25%x4 seems mathematical. However, it has already been historically proven that 15% was too low. 20% was too low.
2) So, if 15/20% is too low, and the current ITF is too high, why not choose something more in the middle. I recommend a 50% flat dmg boost for ITF with and additional 20% dmg boost and range boost for the Tactician line. Also, I recommend decreasing the buff from 8 seconds long, to 6 seconds. Let me put some math behind it:
The current ITF gives a 100% boost of DR as damage boost. The equivalent of a 50% flat damage boost, would be GFs who have a 50% DR with 100% ITF currently...because it takes work to get to the 50% (not including sudden rings). Since the flat damage boost is not based off of DR, it can function very similar to a well geared GF, without the game breaking super DR boost that comes from companions and sudden rings and flawed interactions with other classes. So, just putting the flat damage boost at 50% is already going to equal about a 2.5k-3k GF right now. It also controls the damage. The recommended 25% boost cuts ITF boost down to an equivalent GF right now running only 25% DR with 100% ITF boost, or any other class that might have 25% DR. The % boost suggested is absurdly low. Imagine a GF right now, which only had 25% DR and 100% ITF trying to be selected to run parties with ITF in, and no special mechanisms to boost artificially. That is what the recommended ITF boost is on preview.
But, isn't 50% too high? Well, ITF would take up a slot to run, and the buff time is less. At 6seconds, it would be very difficult to stack recovery to have 100% uptime.
Please consider increasing ITF boost, but keeping it based on flat damage. Also, please consider giving the Tactician line a higher damage boost and range for ITF, to distinguish it from the other two lines. Thanks!
into the fray got damage boost after mod 3 not since closed beta. it was always run speed then they added action points and damage boost.
All this talk about what ITF used to be or should or could be or something.
I honestly didn't start using it perm till mod 4 or 5. I ignored it up till then.
So even if ITF was ripped out of the game, I'd be ok with that. My big complaint is the nerfing EVERYTHING ELSE.
The complaints from outside parties on the nerf crusade was DPS. Show me one recent complaint about lunge or villains menace.
The tankiness, survivability, CC resists, external buffing, debuffing, and movement all got nerfed. I'm sticking around for the official patch-notes for the WHY? What was the rationale to destroying the hard work.
GF powers got major rework prior to mod3 release. Anvil was 25% health threashold that time,ITF as mamal said was only speed/ap.Etc
As for aggro,an OP will have always better aggro if he uses his all tools by a GF.OPs were losing aggro to demo cause they were not used to direct tanking ,after nerf and they were kiting.I have both classes,Op in aggro is superior.
OP is superior in tanking aswell cause of Justice path and Binding Oath.
Gf could compete by Steel Defense ,but for whatever reason SD was nerfed.
In general the significant nerfs that will seriously harm Gfs are: (always at rank4)
Tankiness nerfs:
Villain's Menace duration:From 12 secs to 8.That means -20% less DR and damage Steel Defense:from 6 to 2,5 secs. Lunging Strike: 50% more ICD. 50% less 30% DR
Utility Nerfs:
ITF:from an average 50-60% to aa flat 25% Due to tankiness nerf,using KV in tier 3 dungeons or in new zones with piercing damage (EverFrost) will be a lot ,I mean a lot more risky.
DPS nerfs:
Anvil: Since now it is damage over time and requires the target to be less than 50% it is difficult to apply the 50% threashold since other classes do too much damage.Not enough time for a Gf to use it ITF nerf: -40-70% damage depending om IL and build.
WMS:
The mimic of GWf style we all do it is over.With no unstop to us and VM nerfed .....
I will say roughly for current GF builds, Gfs tankiness in cut in half -50% and DPS around 70-80%.
The core of the problem was ITF.Nerfing iTF would solve the problem alone ,add a SWW rework and Gf would be balanced.
------------------------------------
These nerfs will hurt PVE Gfs the most. The tankinees nerfs are severe and difficult to explain.After mod10 in similar IL an OP will have 2x easiest job to do. GFs with less than 2,7k-2,8k IL will be....in an extremely difficult position.
As for utility: Bane has a 30% buff and a 30% debuff.Compare this to ITF.
As for DPS:
With special companions and stacking power OPs will be superior. yeah i know you all say it is not true.it is.OPs were lazy and did not explore their class prior to the nerf.You will see more of them now.
In essense in mod10 GF will relive the mod2 days. His DPS will be subpar,his tankiness a little more than a GWF that does 4x its damage.His utility will be less than any path OP.
Strange thing is ...PVP Gfs using KChallenge ,ITF and Bull Charge and SWW feature are very little affected.people will still complain.This nerf crusade was fueled cause of pvp ,pve Gfs were obliterated yet pvp ones will continue to thrive.grats. kchalenge should be modified.SWW should be modified.
--------------------------------------
As for the feedback here it made me sad. Confident GFs saying we will be ok.And we will run the content again.Heard that before in mod5 last days.in mod6 other also Confident Gfs were jumping from net to net and from barel to barel.Most of them are in WildStar or ESo now.I am bored to find the discussion now.
Another "GF" said his usual misinfo although he refers to pve and i doubt he ever i mean EVER run any pve content.long live resonator and Sicarious.
Another,true GWF this time and not a masqueraded one, told us we will be fine.He has no clue since he does not play the class.
I will say again what i said 2 years ago,well with different words.GF nerfs are a mentality problem.What I mean? The stereotypical long played Gfs are usually good guys that want to offer to the group.They are docile by nature.Typical DPSers are vicious and want their ego to be N1. That's why GF community is not be able,in conjecture with its small numbers,to protect the class from nerf crusades and attacks. Whoever did so ,kudos to him by me i respect you all,you showed some real guts! \o/ "formally bow emote"
Few bother to read the forums and even fewer to confront the guys that organized a Thought-Opinion pogrom against GFs and their voices. They are afraid or unwilling to.
This is...people in openly organizing opinion pogrom and mass reporting to anyone they don't like his thoughts,regardless of what he posts and his arguments..Nvm.
Or to mention that the main force behind this nerf crusade a CW,went to a gf channel and asked about Gfs and some Gfs responded. : ( or other that gave congrats to him for posting the pre preview patch notes This whole situation is unfair to say at least. ---------------------------------------
Any mod or Cryptic staff can check my account and see how much zen i bought or if i ever violated anything in this game. yet trolls live on ,nerfed a class into oblivion,and thrive ,cause of botting.grats.
yes, you are right, with Inspiring leader that would be 35%
Inspiring leader works as multiplier, 1.3 * 1.05 = 1.365
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icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
FYI - GF is still able to kill everything in 1~2 hits in PvP.
I have tested with xsayajinx1 on PTR yesterday, with my GWF at max tenacity gear (including 2 Rosegold ring), 200k HP, 8.8k defense, one daily is still taking away 80~100% of my HP (or follow by an Anvil for a sure death).
People will cry, just like when bubble pallies got nerfed, but those that didn't strip and delete their characters soon readjusted and the class performs great in the right hands, especially those that can afford to stack power with the piercing damage of Owlbear, pop Burning Light and it's just lol time.
Hardly anyone playing OPs anymore. If that is their goal with GFs then I'm sure they will achieve the same results. Ditto for SWs. There were hardly any more playing and the new nerfs will trim it down even further.
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
People will cry, just like when bubble pallies got nerfed, but those that didn't strip and delete their characters soon readjusted and the class performs great in the right hands, especially those that can afford to stack power with the piercing damage of Owlbear, pop Burning Light and it's just lol time.
Hardly anyone playing OPs anymore. If that is their goal with GFs then I'm sure they will achieve the same results. Ditto for SWs. There were hardly any more playing and the new nerfs will trim it down even further.
I still love my GF even after the changes.
Only reason I don't touch my OP aside from the party needing a healer is that their DPS is doo doo diarrhea.
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romotheoneMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 729Arc User
Comments
It's an AoE swing. That's kind of the point.
It used to give like a 30% at-will buff. I bet that's nerfed to. They're nerfing the whole thing.
The GWF snowflakes will enjoy that.
Glad they improved cleave. But it'll still perform well combo'd with steel blitz.
Guild--And the Imaginary Friends
And they gave nothing to Protector, what a joke.
Actually, they even nerfed Villain's Menace. The only fix it needed was the unability to stack upon itself, but by itself it was fine, there was nothing wrong with it.
And Iron Warrior is still the same old HAMSTER skill, sigh...
and I see defender pets all the time
And it's not like the paladin himself is short of taunts either.
Damage: 1476-1805 (purple drowned)
Power: 6653
Preview / Live
Surge = 6603-7916 / 6574-7882
WMS = 11601-13909 (½ to secondary) / 3308-3966 (way lower than 3300 to secondary)
LS = 11474-13756 (8.9 sec...) / 15194-18217 (5.9 sec)
AoD = 16523-19809 (11.2 sec) (does about 10k damage in those 5 secs...) / 16451-19723 (11.9 sec)
Kneebreaker = 25817-30952 (10.4 sec) / 21421-25681 (10.4 sec)
CS = 16657-19969 (8.9 sec) / 8614-10327 (7.4 sec)
Also seeing !EF! *somenumber* when on preview, but I dunno if that's new as I haven't used that server since early last year.
Guess I'll be spamming WMS even more when on my own, but I'm seeing my ability to tank and help others with buffs as having been reduced rather drastically.
I suppose it was easier to nerf than it was to figure out how to prevent buffs from stacking, like HG+ITF and such.
P.S.
Potion of grand healing, 25k. Finally.
I honestly didn't start using it perm till mod 4 or 5. I ignored it up till then.
So even if ITF was ripped out of the game, I'd be ok with that.
My big complaint is the nerfing EVERYTHING ELSE.
The complaints from outside parties on the nerf crusade was DPS.
Show me one recent complaint about lunge or villains menace.
The tankiness, survivability, CC resists, external buffing, debuffing, and movement all got nerfed.
I'm sticking around for the official patch-notes for the WHY?
What was the rationale to destroying the hard work.
Anvil was 25% health threashold that time,ITF as mamal said was only speed/ap.Etc
As for aggro,an OP will have always better aggro if he uses his all tools by a GF.OPs were losing aggro to demo cause they were not used to direct tanking ,after nerf and they were kiting.I have both classes,Op in aggro is superior.
OP is superior in tanking aswell cause of Justice path and Binding Oath.
Gf could compete by Steel Defense ,but for whatever reason SD was nerfed.
In general the significant nerfs that will seriously harm Gfs are: (always at rank4)
Tankiness nerfs:
Villain's Menace duration:From 12 secs to 8.That means -20% less DR and damage
Steel Defense:from 6 to 2,5 secs.
Lunging Strike: 50% more ICD. 50% less 30% DR
Utility Nerfs:
ITF:from an average 50-60% to aa flat 25%
Due to tankiness nerf,using KV in tier 3 dungeons or in new zones with piercing damage (EverFrost) will be a lot ,I mean a lot more risky.
DPS nerfs:
Anvil: Since now it is damage over time and requires the target to be less than 50% it is difficult to apply the 50% threashold since other classes do too much damage.Not enough time for a Gf to use it
ITF nerf: -40-70% damage depending om IL and build.
WMS:
The mimic of GWf style we all do it is over.With no unstop to us and VM nerfed .....
I will say roughly for current GF builds, Gfs tankiness in cut in half -50% and DPS around 70-80%.
The core of the problem was ITF.Nerfing iTF would solve the problem alone ,add a SWW rework and Gf would be balanced.
------------------------------------
These nerfs will hurt PVE Gfs the most.
The tankinees nerfs are severe and difficult to explain.After mod10 in similar IL an OP will have 2x easiest job to do.
GFs with less than 2,7k-2,8k IL will be....in an extremely difficult position.
As for utility:
Bane has a 30% buff and a 30% debuff.Compare this to ITF.
As for DPS:
With special companions and stacking power OPs will be superior.
yeah i know you all say it is not true.it is.OPs were lazy and did not explore their class prior to the nerf.You will see more of them now.
In essense in mod10 GF will relive the mod2 days.
His DPS will be subpar,his tankiness a little more than a GWF that does 4x its damage.His utility will be less than any path OP.
Strange thing is ...PVP Gfs using KChallenge ,ITF and Bull Charge and SWW feature are very little affected.people will still complain.This nerf crusade was fueled cause of pvp ,pve Gfs were obliterated yet pvp ones will continue to thrive.grats.
kchalenge should be modified.SWW should be modified.
--------------------------------------
As for the feedback here it made me sad.
Confident GFs saying we will be ok.And we will run the content again.Heard that before in mod5 last days.in mod6 other also Confident Gfs were jumping from net to net and from barel to barel.Most of them are in WildStar or ESo now.I am bored to find the discussion now.
Another "GF" said his usual misinfo although he refers to pve and i doubt he ever i mean EVER run any pve content.long live resonator and Sicarious.
Another,true GWF this time and not a masqueraded one, told us we will be fine.He has no clue since he does not play the class.
I will say again what i said 2 years ago,well with different words.GF nerfs are a mentality problem.What I mean?
The stereotypical long played Gfs are usually good guys that want to offer to the group.They are docile by nature.Typical DPSers are vicious and want their ego to be N1.
That's why GF community is not be able,in conjecture with its small numbers,to protect the class from nerf crusades and attacks.
Whoever did so ,kudos to him by me i respect you all,you showed some real guts!
Few bother to read the forums and even fewer to confront the guys that organized a Thought-Opinion pogrom against GFs and their voices.
They are afraid or unwilling to.
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1216132/about-healthy-threads/p1
This is...people in openly organizing opinion pogrom and mass reporting to anyone they don't like his thoughts,regardless of what he posts and his arguments..Nvm.
Or to mention that the main force behind this nerf crusade a CW,went to a gf channel and asked about Gfs and some Gfs responded. : (
or other that gave congrats to him for posting the pre preview patch notes
This whole situation is unfair to say at least.
---------------------------------------
Any mod or Cryptic staff can check my account and see how much zen i bought or if i ever violated anything in this game.
yet trolls live on ,nerfed a class into oblivion,and thrive ,cause of botting.grats.
I have tested with xsayajinx1 on PTR yesterday, with my GWF at max tenacity gear (including 2 Rosegold ring), 200k HP, 8.8k defense, one daily is still taking away 80~100% of my HP (or follow by an Anvil for a sure death).
GF stays the top dog in PvP.
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
Guardian Fighter
TLO
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1221446/the-future-of-the-gf/p1 Existing Problems Still In The Guardian Fighter
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/comment/12984912m
Feat Changes I'd like to see in The Guardian Fighter
Only reason I don't touch my OP aside from the party needing a healer is that their DPS is doo doo diarrhea.