Wisdom and control bonus: the equation ?

nezdin

Hi CWs,

I have a question about control. It seems there is clear consensus in the CW community in the value of Charisma over Wisdom as a secondary attribute - and I understand the logic behind how it boosts DPS.

I would however like to understand how wisdom and its control bonus work. How can I compare 2 characters that have lower or higher Wisdom in terms of (for instance):
-Duration of Entangling Force (or Steal Time).
-Distance of push in Repel.
-Any other example you think fit in illustrating the above.

Does anyone know how the Wisdom formula/equation works?

Thanks.

c1k4ml3kc3

WIS is generally taken for the pure recovery/control builds. Specifically for the PvP (although the CON build is also a viable choice). WIS is generally taken when you play as the Oppressor class.

Here's the issue, however - Controlling powers are not as effective ever since MOD4 and MOD6 got introduced. CWs became a semi-melee class in terms of Encounters execution (for the most part), whilst the elite mobs (as well as bosses) are not so easily controlled and/or have the controlling effects completely negated due to their hard-coded resistances.

So, in conclusion, unless you're really going to play a pro OPP CW for PvP, there's really no reason to take WIS.
OR, of course, you can play as a support character to some other CW who, in turn, can take all the best DPS possibilities.
A good CW duo is better than a single CW in terms of efficiency. Luckily, the powers are supplementary one to another (to a degree).

thefabricant

I am sorry to break the disappointing news to you ,but this is one of the things I do not know and I have no interest in testing. Why? Because I am a PVE player and in PVE, control on CW is effectively dead, there is no reason to stack it. I have experimented with various amounts of stacked control and essentially the only control a CW has is icy veins.

voidgift

Control is still pretty relevant in solo play, before you can dps anything in a rotation or two.

I have some undevelloped alts that I sometimes bring out to do influence. I have no problem surviving a fight over several minutes, even tho they can kill me in two strikes. Only because they have good cc.

mamalion1234

i will keep do my fun pve runs with my opressor pvp build and minimal damage taken for the whole team. IF you use damaging powers dont expect to control. EVEN builds non opressors do that job fine.
IF we take as example drider in etos the highest cc mob control for a cw is only freeze?
no you can chain control and with other controling powers and you will understand the difference if you dont stack control bonus and wisdom.
MY dps build mage if try to control even with icy veins i will struggle and go near death ( if i go alone on the drider and the mobs around) when with a high wisdom build and controling powers i will not get not even 1 damage.

EVEN in pvp we dont expect freeze to do everything we use and other controling powers.

AND we will see if we will able to kill fast in new module solo vs monsters.

dupeks

I haven't done a huge amount of testing for similar reasons as others mentioned above. But here's my uninformed take:

1. Control bonus seems to have the largest "tangible" impact on duration of freeze (and maybe daze duration following Steal Time)
   
2. More important than control duration is control frequency, especially in a high DPS group where you break freeze right away anyway. It interrupts mobs from moving / attacking. For that reason Icy Veins is great
   
3. It's hard to say for certain, but based on my subjective observation stacking control seems to help more against mobs that have high control resistance (it's better at mitigating control resistance than adding control duration to non-resistant targets). That suggests a calculation along the lines of Final Duration = (Control Bonus - Control Resistance) * Base Duration
   
4. Not all sources of control seem to work the same. I seem to recall Valindra set bonus is applied as a separate multiplier to Final Duration. Might be wrong though.
   

I run a MoF Rene full buff/debuff with control stacked, mostly for sillies.

mamalion1234

IS the more relax way to play a wizard you control others kill and in your case you debuff also. my pleasure is hard to proc someone soulforge.

niadan

Death is still the best crowd control when crowd control is basically the same for all CWs. Specialization in control (for PVE) is ineffective.

nezdin

thefabricant said:

I am sorry to break the disappointing news to you ,but this is one of the things I do not know and I have no interest in testing. Why? Because I am a PVE player and in PVE, control on CW is effectively dead, there is no reason to stack it. I have experimented with various amounts of stacked control and essentially the only control a CW has is icy veins.

Thanks anyway. I did go through your guide before posting the question, in case you had already found the answer

nezdin

So I did a bit of testing on the Dread ring dummies a couple of days ago. I only looked at the duration of Entangling Force and how it interracts with:

(a) Different levels of Wisdom;
(b) Whether I had the full Valindra's Set equipped;
(c) Whether I had Glacial Movement rank 5 (GM) as a feat in the Oppressor Tree.

Results are a little crude as I used my mobile phone as a timer (I don't have specialised software), but the variance is not that large anyway. Orb of Imposition was equipped as a passive at rank 4. Results are median duration of EF in seconds:

NO VT SET, NO GM:
WIS=17: 6.73s
WIS=20: 6.50s
WIS=23: 6.64s


VT SET EQUIPPED, NO GM:
WIS=17: 7.25s
WIS=20: 7.50s
WIS=23: 7.76s


VT SET EQUIPPED, WITH GM:
-
-
WIS=23: 9.01s

So: Wisdom seems to do nothing significant! Even if there is some measurement error, it seems that it adds peanuts. Maybe it would be more interesting to contrast a WIS=12 to a WIS=23, but I did not do that. Maybe I am missing something? However, VT set adds 15% control bonus making EF's duration increase by a little. GM also has a noticeable effect via OoI.

dupeks said:

1. It's hard to say for certain, but based on my subjective observation stacking control seems to help more against mobs that have high control resistance (it's better at mitigating control resistance than adding control duration to non-resistant targets). That suggests a calculation along the lines of Final Duration = (Control Bonus - Control Resistance) * Base Duration
   

I did go to the Phantasmal Fortress afterwards (or whatever it is called) and had the impression that my Oppressor could control the boss longer than my Thaum (I respecced for it on preview). So I think that you may be onto something in your description/calculation above. But how Wisdom comes into the picture exactly mystifies me. Also, while fighting I was not able to compare how different levels of wisdom affects control duration on the boss as I am only 2.3k ilevel and squishy . Not sure how I could test that at all.

thefabricant

nezdin#5514 said:

So I did a bit of testing on the Dread ring dummies a couple of days ago. I only looked at the duration of Entangling Force and how it interracts with:

(a) Different levels of Wisdom;
(b) Whether I had the full Valindra's Set equipped;
(c) Whether I had Glacial Movement rank 5 (GM) as a feat in the Oppressor Tree.

Results are a little crude as I used my mobile phone as a timer (I don't have specialised software), but the variance is not that large anyway. Orb of Imposition was equipped as a passive at rank 4. Results are median duration of EF in seconds:

NO VT SET, NO GM:
WIS=17: 6.73s
WIS=20: 6.50s
WIS=23: 6.64s


VT SET EQUIPPED, NO GM:
WIS=17: 7.25s
WIS=20: 7.50s
WIS=23: 7.76s


VT SET EQUIPPED, WITH GM:
-
-
WIS=23: 9.01s

So: Wisdom seems to do nothing significant! Even if there is some measurement error, it seems that it adds peanuts. Maybe it would be more interesting to contrast a WIS=12 to a WIS=23, but I did not do that. Maybe I am missing something? However, VT set adds 15% control bonus making EF's duration increase by a little. GM also has a noticeable effect via OoI.

dupeks said:

1. It's hard to say for certain, but based on my subjective observation stacking control seems to help more against mobs that have high control resistance (it's better at mitigating control resistance than adding control duration to non-resistant targets). That suggests a calculation along the lines of Final Duration = (Control Bonus - Control Resistance) * Base Duration
   

I did go to the Phantasmal Fortress afterwards (or whatever it is called) and had the impression that my Oppressor could control the boss longer than my Thaum (I respecced for it on preview). So I think that you may be onto something in your description/calculation above. But how Wisdom comes into the picture exactly mystifies me. Also, while fighting I was not able to compare how different levels of wisdom affects control duration on the boss as I am only 2.3k ilevel and squishy . Not sure how I could test that at all.

If you want to check this accurately, my recommendation is to record your testing and then do frame by frame measurement, this will give you accurate time measurements. I would guess your results are skewed quite a bit by this, particularly the ones for wisdom. I would also recommend trying no orb of imposition vs orb of imposition. Finally, I would recommend checking vs someone say wearing an elven battle to simulate something like a stormcaller in eGWD. There is also the control bonus companions. If you want to check this, I won't mind going through whatever information you get.

nezdin

thefabricant said:

nezdin#5514 said:

So I did a bit of testing on the Dread ring dummies a couple of days ago. I only looked at the duration of Entangling Force and how it interracts with:

(a) Different levels of Wisdom;
(b) Whether I had the full Valindra's Set equipped;
(c) Whether I had Glacial Movement rank 5 (GM) as a feat in the Oppressor Tree.

Results are a little crude as I used my mobile phone as a timer (I don't have specialised software), but the variance is not that large anyway. Orb of Imposition was equipped as a passive at rank 4. Results are median duration of EF in seconds:

NO VT SET, NO GM:
WIS=17: 6.73s
WIS=20: 6.50s
WIS=23: 6.64s


VT SET EQUIPPED, NO GM:
WIS=17: 7.25s
WIS=20: 7.50s
WIS=23: 7.76s


VT SET EQUIPPED, WITH GM:
-
-
WIS=23: 9.01s

So: Wisdom seems to do nothing significant! Even if there is some measurement error, it seems that it adds peanuts. Maybe it would be more interesting to contrast a WIS=12 to a WIS=23, but I did not do that. Maybe I am missing something? However, VT set adds 15% control bonus making EF's duration increase by a little. GM also has a noticeable effect via OoI.

dupeks said:

1. It's hard to say for certain, but based on my subjective observation stacking control seems to help more against mobs that have high control resistance (it's better at mitigating control resistance than adding control duration to non-resistant targets). That suggests a calculation along the lines of Final Duration = (Control Bonus - Control Resistance) * Base Duration
   

I did go to the Phantasmal Fortress afterwards (or whatever it is called) and had the impression that my Oppressor could control the boss longer than my Thaum (I respecced for it on preview). So I think that you may be onto something in your description/calculation above. But how Wisdom comes into the picture exactly mystifies me. Also, while fighting I was not able to compare how different levels of wisdom affects control duration on the boss as I am only 2.3k ilevel and squishy . Not sure how I could test that at all.

If you want to check this accurately, my recommendation is to record your testing and then do frame by frame measurement, this will give you accurate time measurements. I would guess your results are skewed quite a bit by this, particularly the ones for wisdom. I would also recommend trying no orb of imposition vs orb of imposition. Finally, I would recommend checking vs someone say wearing an elven battle to simulate something like a stormcaller in eGWD. There is also the control bonus companions. If you want to check this, I won't mind going through whatever information you get.

Is frame by frame measurement done via a piece of software that needs to be installed?

thefabricant

nezdin#5514 said:

thefabricant said:

nezdin#5514 said:

So I did a bit of testing on the Dread ring dummies a couple of days ago. I only looked at the duration of Entangling Force and how it interracts with:

(a) Different levels of Wisdom;
(b) Whether I had the full Valindra's Set equipped;
(c) Whether I had Glacial Movement rank 5 (GM) as a feat in the Oppressor Tree.

Results are a little crude as I used my mobile phone as a timer (I don't have specialised software), but the variance is not that large anyway. Orb of Imposition was equipped as a passive at rank 4. Results are median duration of EF in seconds:

NO VT SET, NO GM:
WIS=17: 6.73s
WIS=20: 6.50s
WIS=23: 6.64s


VT SET EQUIPPED, NO GM:
WIS=17: 7.25s
WIS=20: 7.50s
WIS=23: 7.76s


VT SET EQUIPPED, WITH GM:
-
-
WIS=23: 9.01s

So: Wisdom seems to do nothing significant! Even if there is some measurement error, it seems that it adds peanuts. Maybe it would be more interesting to contrast a WIS=12 to a WIS=23, but I did not do that. Maybe I am missing something? However, VT set adds 15% control bonus making EF's duration increase by a little. GM also has a noticeable effect via OoI.

dupeks said:

1. It's hard to say for certain, but based on my subjective observation stacking control seems to help more against mobs that have high control resistance (it's better at mitigating control resistance than adding control duration to non-resistant targets). That suggests a calculation along the lines of Final Duration = (Control Bonus - Control Resistance) * Base Duration
   

I did go to the Phantasmal Fortress afterwards (or whatever it is called) and had the impression that my Oppressor could control the boss longer than my Thaum (I respecced for it on preview). So I think that you may be onto something in your description/calculation above. But how Wisdom comes into the picture exactly mystifies me. Also, while fighting I was not able to compare how different levels of wisdom affects control duration on the boss as I am only 2.3k ilevel and squishy . Not sure how I could test that at all.

If you want to check this accurately, my recommendation is to record your testing and then do frame by frame measurement, this will give you accurate time measurements. I would guess your results are skewed quite a bit by this, particularly the ones for wisdom. I would also recommend trying no orb of imposition vs orb of imposition. Finally, I would recommend checking vs someone say wearing an elven battle to simulate something like a stormcaller in eGWD. There is also the control bonus companions. If you want to check this, I won't mind going through whatever information you get.

Is frame by frame measurement done via a piece of software that needs to be installed?

You can either download advanced video editing software, or you can use windows movie maker to do this. The former options may come with a price tag attached but give better results, the latter is free and should be on your PC already.