OK, we need to have a Chat about Oath of Devotion Paladins

kilocycle

Look I have been Playing my Oathbound Paladin, Oath of Devotion for a year now. It has taken me awhile to see what was wrong. I was doing instances and had noticed more people dying as of late. So I went back though my skill descriptions. Within my history I had noticed my build description from 'long' ago and I compared notes. And, that was how I knew things have changed.

I'm sorry but Shield of Faith has been overnerfed. This needs to last a little bit longer, like 20 sec (not 12). We have to keep that up during combat in dungons. Look at the numbers! With Relentless Avenger I have to be able to hit that twice within 12 seconds to keep that running. With 13k recovery, Aura of Wisdom, Flash of Light and Restorative Haste, I get the cooldown of RA reduced to 6 sec........ What is happening is in the brief second or two when it goes off, someone occasionally dies. And, it's not good for the party to have a palladin relentless avenger a mob every 5 sec because it can ruin their DPS. So don't tell me to get better gear I already have 70% Action point gain (I admit that I don't have a Burning Weapon/offhand). I have tried other skills and nothing generates Action Points fast enough or soon enough. I pitty the new palladin that doesn't have 2-3 epic or legendary sprites, companions with "recovery", all the boons completed, stronghold buffs, tiamat neck, Buring set, etc. That paladin would really struggle to keep people alive.

Look the 50% damage reduction -> 30% damage reduction was a little harsh. If you want to nerf for Oath of Protection then do it for them, but not the Oath of Devotion. We really need that skill. There are many skills that have different descriptions for Oath of Devotion verses Protection. You guys keep nerfing this skill everytime it's the pally's turn, it can't be suffered for PvE anymore. PLEASE give us "HEALADINS" longer Duration! Or SOMETHING else that mitgates damage for the party that doesn't require having Relentless Avenger.

http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1215847/gigacycles-oath-of-devotion-build-on-life-support

kilocycle

Well, I just tried an eDemo with a DC, me as an OP heal as the healers. Didn't go so well. Look I don't even know if Oath of Devotion is viable for 3k+ total item levels. But, I will stick my neck out and say that a new 70 can't do Oath of Devotion and be effective. This really bums me out. This was my favorite alt, just got my first piece of Dragon Flight for it.

kilocycle

They moved this out of the "Feed Back" forums ..... to here

hawkend

Well, i see you are using Light build. That's why you can't keep daily. If you wanna to generate fast APs, you need to switch for Justice tree. Justice capstone allows to spam Relentless Avenger and generate enough APs to keep permadaily, thanks to spamming Divine Call(with Divine Action heroic feat). And you don't need to care about heals, you even don't need to use Prism because Beacon of Hope healing for ridiculous amounts. Combination of Bond of Virtue and Beacon of Hope allows to keep burst healing, on my low-geared OP, ACT logs shows 1:1 ratio of these two powers. But if you have better gear then you should to put 2 or even 1 point in Beacon of Hope because overhealing is not good.

Try one of those builds:


http://nwcalc.com/index.html#/op?b=23ci:k6rwk5:8dep:5tb7d,1vii332:1uu53ej:1000000:1uu5000&h=0&p=ood
http://nwcalc.com/index.html#/op?b=23ci:k6rwk5:8dep:5tb7d,1vii332:1uu53h1:1000000:1uu5000&h=0&p=ood
http://nwcalc.com/index.html#/op?b=2iev:k6rwk5:8dep:5tb7d,1vii332:1uu53cv:1000000:1uu5000&h=0&p=ood
http://nwcalc.com/index.html#/op?b=23ci:k6rwk5:8dep:5tb7d,1vii332:1uu53fj:1000000:1uu4000&h=0&p=ood

kilocycle

I think it's a bit rude to Relentless Avenger every ~10sec, although it's better than 5. Prism .... look my gear doesn't have a lot of Crit in it, is this build crit dependent? And, seriously I don't see how this addresses the Damage Mitigation Issue. This looks like it heals good, how do you mitigate damage to others? You can't heal someone that get's one-shotted.

thefabricant

@jaegernl can probably help you out here.

wildfirede

it shoild be the tank and dps's job to not get oneshooted imo

kilocycle

I'm sorry. I need to clarify. With my light based build. And, with Shield of Faith's new 30% deduction, I found the need to Bane people more. Are you using bane? Or that other CC skill to use as additional damage reduction?

hawkend

I'm using Bane but only on bosses which can oneshot us, if you have good reflex you can stack Bane more than 3 times but it's a bug what should be addressed. When i'm getting other pally in team then i'll use Aura of Truth and Aura of Life(with offhand) to mitigate damage as hard as i can. Problem is truely only one, if you wanna tank on Devotion you need to have high HP. There are exist many OPs with low crit chance and Justice build because they're using Owlbear Cub, so crit chance is not issue in this build.

michaelrn1982

This is the build I have been working on lately. Just posted a small description of the build. I do intend on updating it as I write more content to it. I have successfully been able to run this build in edemo and be a tank/healer and top healing charts by a good margin.

http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1215921/gathornias-guide-to-devotion-tanking

kilocycle

Devotion tanking? Does the Auto Queue system recognize you as a healer or tank or dps now? Secondly, the thought that we are forever tanks now, is a little upsetting. I know the healadin wasn't popular, but it worked. My old build worked so well. Compared to a DC it was more heal and protection, but the party damage increase buffs sucked by comparison (I I thought it was a fair balance). I don't want to make a second tank dude. Look I'm waiting for a coupon, I'm going to try one more justice based build.

michaelrn1982

This is only one view, but the build has dual purpose. You can tank and/or be the healer. That's the principal behind it. In the queue system, you are recognized as a healer. That is the primary function. My build is to take it to the next level and discover a true concept of being a hybrid. I have successfully ran not only in T2 as the primary healer, but eDemo and DF runs as well. I added the beefiness to give a new change to "standard" builds. As a player who has been in many different roles, classes and builds, I wanted to share something that really hasn't been explored so far. I will admit that threat generation has been a slight issue as being a tank. I have been exploring options on how to surpass this issue.

ghoulz66

Only way you're going to tank is by running ahead first with a charging bull ring slapped on. Then let the actual tank do his work on the bosses.

hawkend said:

I'm using Bane but only on bosses which can oneshot us, if you have good reflex you can stack Bane more than 3 times but it's a bug what should be addressed. When i'm getting other pally in team then i'll use Aura of Truth and Aura of Life(with offhand) to mitigate damage as hard as i can. Problem is truely only one, if you wanna tank on Devotion you need to have high HP. There are exist many OPs with low crit chance and Justice build because they're using Owlbear Cub, so crit chance is not issue in this build.

Crit is mostly a huge waste on devotion anyway. Vow heals, shift, prism and such don't even rely on crit. You're better off dumping into Con and the feat to buff Con. Once you get your DR to 70%+ content becomes laughable.

kilocycle

Ok, enough with these theories. I still say that they have overnerfed the Oath of Devotion. Here is a challenge. Can anyone make an Oath of Devotion paladin with single slot rings, only rank 7s, no weapon enchant, no stronghold buffs (just move them to less useful ones), no Ioun Stone, no Bonding Companion. Artifacts are only cheap ones, Sigils, or Blood Crystal Raven. Artifact gear epic or less (2-slot jewel crafted belt/neck is acceptable). Can you effectively solo heal all the T1s with other 2.5/6k til? And, how does the T2s go? Basically, you are simulating a newish player. And, don't comment on PvP please. Furthermore, feel free to compare to the difficulty a Devoted Cleric would have at the same handicaps. Post successful results down below, and please describe how you did it. Basically, this needs to work for new players/Alts or ........ It's Broke.

The main tests are.

Lostmauth's: The Scorpions and Lostmauth
Malbog's: Malbog
Valindra: how about it when the DPS isn't good and you have to deal with the coffins.

All T2 bosses, and how was the trip to get to them?

thefabricant

kilocycle said:

Ok, enough with these theories. I still say that they have overnerfed the Oath of Devotion. Here is a challenge. Can anyone make an Oath of Devotion paladin with single slot rings, only rank 7s, no weapon enchant, no stronghold buffs (just move them to less useful ones), no Ioun Stone, no Bonding Companion. Artifacts are only cheap ones, Sigils, or Blood Crystal Raven. Artifact gear epic or less (2-slot jewel crafted belt/neck is acceptable). Can you effectively solo heal all the T1s with other 2.5/6k til? And, how does the T2s go? Basically, you are simulating a newish player. And, don't comment on PvP please. Furthermore, feel free to compare to the difficulty a Devoted Cleric would have at the same handicaps. Post successful results down below, and please describe how you did it. Basically, this needs to work for new players/Alts or ........ It's Broke.

The main tests are.

Lostmauth's: The Scorpions and Lostmauth
Malbog's: Malbog
Valindra: how about it when the DPS isn't good and you have to deal with the coffins.

All T2 bosses, and how was the trip to get to them?

Easily. My devo paladin has worse gear than the gear you are discussing and I do all T1s and T2s fine. How did I do it? Like this. (Oath of devotion justice spec, I haven't changed my devo pally since I wrote that article) The issue with devo pally isn't its ability to heal or tank, it can do either fine, its the fact that nobody needs a healer or a tank. The game doesn't call for either rolls, it calls for dps, buffs and debuffs and a paladin falls behind a HR in that department, let alone a CW, a DC or a GF.

obsidiatryx

I'm going to bring back some life into this topic. I am currently just shy of 3k gear level myself, been playing just about as long as the original poster. While I am a Justice Paragon, I do get people asking me to help them fix their Devo OP builds for light and justice paragons. I'm hoping that you're seeing that right now for us, we shouldn't be trying to keep up the Daily Power for our shields. Additionally, the Tankadin's can and for the most part have been shifting to the Shield of Faith daily power as well.

I have been using the Healing Font Daily along with the Aura of Divinity as passives to help my healing rate. Additionally, I combo Bond of Virtue and Vow of Enmity in small man groups. This works extremely well for T1s, T2s, eDemo, CN and for the most part I've been doing this since 1600 gear level when I first hit level 70. In larger runs such as Dragonflight, Heralds and Tiamat, I don't use Vow of Enmity (supposedly there's a lag caused by it with large man groups). I haven't been able to prove the lag, but I'm hoping someone else can chime in on it.

When the nerf was proposed and being carried out, I tested my build without the daily. At 2500 gear strength, I was able to keep everyone up without the daily. Initially I did have Prism slotted in, but I switched it out for the melee DPS buff above it, so I wouldn't have to worry about the zerg channels whining about Prism usage.

What I have noticed, is that while I'm setting up the passive healing abilities my team can take burst damage that can one-shot the weaker characters. After the tank establishes control, and all the passives are up, I'm pretty much on easy mode throughout the fight. While I am able hit my daily about 4-5 times per minute, my first one is usually Healing Font then followed by Shield of Faith until Healing Font expires. So far, this appears to be working.

What I am using:

Dungeons: Bond of Virtue (Q), Vow of Emnity (E), Utility Button (R)* // Aura of Divinity**, Aura of Courage // Oath Strike, Cure Wounds*** // Healing Font, Shield of Faith.

* - Usually Cleansing Touch (for a low level party that needs lots of burst heals), Bane (Bosses), or Burning Light (pretty much any other time) dependent on party needs.
** - Can be switched for Aura of Vengeance, Aura of Wisdom dependent on party needs.
*** - Sometimes, I will switch in Radiant Strike when its appropriate, most often its Cure Wounds.

Tiamat and Heralds: Bond of Virtue (Q), Cleansing Touch (E), Burning Light (R) // Aura of Divinity, Aura of Courage // Oath Strike, Cure Wounds // Divine Judgment, Shield of Faith

If you see any weaknesses here, let me know, I'm still open to improvements.

nightranger7477

Sounds pretty solid, I am still using prism burning light combo and I don't notice any lag much at all after the nerf, I can normally heal for so much that healing font seems like overkill, I am running justice devo similar to what you described but normally slot heroism and radiant strike because as I said we heal so much that it seems redundant.

obsidiatryx

I have been slotting in Heroism and Radiant strike, but only for when I want to DPS more than healing. Unfortunately, (or not) I have been running groups of varying strengths so I adjust the amount of available healing in concert with their abilities.

haypiihalflingg

obsidiatryx, is your paladin human? cha/con? and what feat setup, and boons do you choose, seems you have a handle on the devotion paladin.

obsidiatryx

A quick breakdown:

My Paladin is Human, somewhat a typical Justice Paragon Devo Paladin. Everything I chose for boons and feats matches my playstyle which is to turn melee DPS into Healing for the team. At creation, I had CON/WIS high, but stacked everything into CON/CHA during development to 70. A lot of other paladins will scream at me: "What are you doing?" However, I have never had an issue with developing heals for my team. In fact, I overheal too much. (Healing strategy listed in the bottom paragraph). I am in the middle of writing down everything for this build, and I will have it posted at some point, just a bit behind with the current material. as for feats: Heroic 5005/0313/3300 Justice: 555551/00000 Light 555000/00000. All boons are focused on Power, HP and anything other than critical strike.

The design of this paladin was around utility, his heals already can heal 180k+hp tanks back to full with one burst heal and that heals the rest of the team at the same time. Looking at the build I posted above earlier in the thread, this paladin can be a serious DPS addition to the party. Granted, not like the current SW/GWF/TRs out there right now, but if the team is low DPS and needs an extra push, this build will add to the overall DPS while healing at the same time.

My mentality to healing is to stack multiple forms of healing at the same time. Bond of Virtue, spreads the heals around no matter who gets healed, Vow of Enmity makes a single target into a healing AOE for the team, Sanctuary is a very powerful top off, Cleansing touch is a huge burst heal when everyone takes that big hit, while cure wounds alone can heal the entire team through Orcus in CN if we really wanted to. Damage Mitigation from Shield of Faith is still a good tactic to use, but I'd go with Healing Font first, and then Aura of Divinity to set up recurring heals then start spamming Shield of Faith. Because I'm a melee fighter, whatever target has Vow of Enmity is also my target to beat on with Oath Strike. Remember, Oath Strike has its own healing ability too. If I use a hybrid version and include Burning Light, whatever my damage is from it is also repeated as heals to teammates near me, and if it connects with the target that has Vow of Enmity, you see the pattern. Divine Call heals a bit less, but I'm more concerned with speeding up my cool downs. If, for some reason, the team starts taking heavy hits, I will back off of melee fighting, help stabilize the HP situation and then get back to work.

phelpz4

@obsidiatryx that exactly how I heal in game. The problem I have is some times people die from getting one shorted. Other than that this is a decent way of keeping a group alive.

obsidiatryx

Don't worry too much about 1-shots. Its the deaths that happen from multiple hits that we should be able to take care of. If they are getting 1-shot, then they should: a) Build better gear. (if they are there to get better gear, then they should be playing more conservative.) b) Move out of the way or stand outside the AOE/direct attack's range. c) if still dying, then they should come back to the area later after they have had time to check their build/gear and see what they can manipulate (if anything at all).

I have had in the past to make a decision: Stop healing to pick up someone or keep healing and they die out of the fight. Most of the time I will stop to pick up the person. Sometimes, I'm sorry!