The Age of the CW returns!!! (and TR's too)

weaver936

With the OP nerf and Lostie Set Nerf, shouldn't we be leveling CW's and TR's this 2x XP event? It seems the Crowd Control of the TR and CW will be in great need when you can't just simply stand in Red with the Pallies Bubble up 100% .

CW's and TR's get nice dmg, CC, and AoE dmg capacity. And GF's have always been the better tank for experienced Parties. What do you guys think?

urabask

lol you must be trolling.

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ghoulz66

CWs and TRs get a DPS drop with the LM nerf...

GWFs and SWs are going to be the flavor of the day.

rescorlian

Was waiting for this one, have to admit, in a most guilty manner. Back when Castle never was the hardest thing, and working your way up to it was the goal, one class reigned supreme. The CW, matching their DPS was nigh on impossible. And boy oh boy, the VAST majority of them didn't miss an opportunity to remind you of it. Why you play GWF, it's a s#^% class, I had spoken to me on many more than one occasion. The insults and put downs still haven't stopped, unskilled class to play and so on and so forth. When the big nerf came down and hit them, there was a part of me that was very...satisfied. Seems the most arrogant of players call CW their home. Consider themselves the master class. Case in point...

http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1214641/25-cw-tiamat-run

Don't get me wrong, when looking at the trees I felt bad for the players as getting nerfed sucks. On the opposite side looking at the forest, fix hasn't even hit yet and already digging their GWF lessers graves with a smile on their face and an insult in /zone and /channel lol.

lantern22

No, control won't all of a sudden be a focus for parties. All people will need to do is dodge

dsn1118

You cant control Demogorgon and half of CN mobs anyway.You might use control for tiamat but I dont think you will need lots of control for that one since mobs genrally turn on tanks if you can somehow interrupt their first attack on clerics

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schietindebux

@ ghoulz

Warlock will miss a lot of sparkgain from lolset, Hadar Grasp spend 14 sparks on a crit...now it´s one, the main reason using lolset was sparkgain...that's gone.
GWF will also miss a lot of damage by poor procs from lolset , capped at 2k, no procs higher than 2000! So GWF will stay in a good spot for sure, but he will miss >20% of his damage.
Wait for the needed nerf and decide where to go.
Btw. a good , PVE focussed TR is at least same level than a warlock on single target or better...there are only very few , who run an optimized build, but I met some.
Same about CW, who melts trash in seconds and can deal great damage on single target. I run some fast runs with my warlock and a CW "Apache" (+DC+GF+OP)..and he dealt pretty high damage.
One of our guild TR´s runs a pretty nasty build and if ever you met him you would tell the same, Sonir.
It´s all about the build you run and the player and not only about a setbonus I am sure.
First the lolset is fixed and afterwards classbalance will follow, that´s what is said, and that´s what we wait for since long.

weaver936

schietindebux said:

@ ghoulz



Warlock will miss a lot of sparkgain from lolset, Hadar Grasp spend 14 sparks on a crit...now it´s one, the main reason using lolset was sparkgain...that's gone.

GWF will also miss a lot of damage by poor procs from lolset , capped at 2k, no procs higher than 2000! So GWF will stay in a good spot for sure, but he will miss >20% of his damage.

Wait for the needed nerf and decide where to go.

Btw. a good , PVE focussed TR is at least same level than a warlock on single target or better...there are only very few , who run an optimized build, but I met some.

Same about CW, who melts trash in seconds and can deal great damage on single target. I run some fast runs with my warlock and a CW "Apache" (+DC+GF+OP)..and he dealt pretty high damage.

One of our guild TR´s runs a pretty nasty build and if ever you met him you would tell the same, Sonir.

It´s all about the build you run and the player and not only about a setbonus I am sure.

First the lolset is fixed and afterwards classbalance will follow, that´s what is said, and that´s what we wait for since long.

The first actually intelligent response, so far. . Even if the english is a bit off.

thefabricant

weaver936 said:

With the OP nerf and Lostie Set Nerf, shouldn't we be leveling CW's and TR's this 2x XP event? It seems the Crowd Control of the TR and CW will be in great need when you can't just simply stand in Red with the Pallies Bubble up 100% .

CW's and TR's get nice dmg, CC, and AoE dmg capacity. And GF's have always been the better tank for experienced Parties. What do you guys think?

No, the age of the CW has not returned, because the effectiveness of their CC is very low and quite simply put, there is nothing that needs to be CCd, that can be CCd.

rescorlian said:

Was waiting for this one, have to admit, in a most guilty manner. Back when Castle never was the hardest thing, and working your way up to it was the goal, one class reigned supreme. The CW, matching their DPS was nigh on impossible. And boy oh boy, the VAST majority of them didn't miss an opportunity to remind you of it. Why you play GWF, it's a s#^% class, I had spoken to me on many more than one occasion. The insults and put downs still haven't stopped, unskilled class to play and so on and so forth. When the big nerf came down and hit them, there was a part of me that was very...satisfied. Seems the most arrogant of players call CW their home. Consider themselves the master class. Case in point...

http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1214641/25-cw-tiamat-run

Don't get me wrong, when looking at the trees I felt bad for the players as getting nerfed sucks. On the opposite side looking at the forest, fix hasn't even hit yet and already digging their GWF lessers graves with a smile on their face and an insult in /zone and /channel lol.

@rescorlian doing a 25 CW tiamat run has got nothing to do with CWs considering themselves the master class, it just shows that we were the first ones to give it a try, that is all. There will probably be 25 of each class TIA runs, the only exception maybe being the paladin. There have been 5 DCs running T2 dungeons, does that mean that DCs think themselves to be the master class? No, it shows they were just having fun with weird party compositions. GWFs were the first ones to solo t2s post mod 6, does that mean that they think they are the master class? No, it does not. The new queue system allows you to experiment with new compositions in places that were previously off limits, like tiamat. So please, don't use a bit of fun that CWs decided to have together as an excuse to bash the class, I don't bash GWF, and say that you are all snobs who think you the master class, so don't bash my wizard.

weaver936

I really think the Devs will do more to limit stupid amounts of dmg being dealt out.. (watch out for Bonding Runestone nerfs). Because, the only other way to make content more challenging is to add HP to mobs.. or allow them to stun players (edemo.... PoM). And lord knows the player base will QQ hard and maybe rage quit if anything else is put into game like Madness.. lol.

I think whether CC is more useful post-change or not really depends on how hard the mobs hit over time (instead of insta-dieing with Lostie set dmg) and how inexperienced people really are at surviving without the bubble. 30% of the dmg on several of my toons with the Lostie set came for Lostmauth's Vengeance... and I didn't try to max the output.. lol. I wonder jsut how much extra dps there was out there from the set and how much faster things died because of it.

If it's as substantial as I suspect... CC, Dmg Mitigation, and dmg buffs from different class' feats might very well be needed. I remember when the Arp Bug was still in the game and you could get one shot for now reason.. teams still made it through alot of the content LEGITIMATELY because of intelligent team building and people who knew how to play their class. I'm hoping for a similar need to some of the content again.. and these changes make it more likely to happen.. not to mention w/e other changes they make to class balance.

Even if the stated changes mentioned so far aren't gonna give us that NEED yet.. I do believe the devs intend on getting us their eventually. Don't forget.. this is only the first steps in them applying their findings from their "Class Review".

thefabricant

weaver936 said:

I think whether CC is more useful post-change or not really depends on how hard the mobs hit over time (instead of insta-dieing with Lostie set dmg) and how inexperienced people really are at surviving without the bubble. 30% of the dmg on several of my toons with the Lostie set came for Lostmauth's Vengeance... and I didn't try to max the output.. lol. I wonder jsut how much extra dps there was out there from the set and how much faster things died because of it.

If it's as substantial as I suspect... CC, Dmg Mitigation, and dmg buffs from different class' feats might very well be needed. I remember when the Arp Bug was still in the game and you could get one shot for now reason.. teams still made it through alot of the content LEGITIMATELY because of intelligent team building and people who knew how to play their class. I'm hoping for a similar need to some of the content again.. and these changes make it more likely to happen.. not to mention w/e other changes they make to class balance.

Even if the stated changes mentioned so far aren't gonna give us that NEED yet.. I do believe the devs intend on getting us their eventually. Don't forget.. this is only the first steps in them applying their findings from their "Class Review".

The only time I would argue it makes life a lot easier to take a CW is in the hall of mirrors in CN, however, if the party just waits for the balor to wonder down the corridor, he kills all the adds for you anyhow.

schietindebux

weaver936 said:

I really think the Devs will do more to limit stupid amounts of dmg being dealt out.. (watch out for Bonding Runestone nerfs). Because, the only other way to make content more challenging is to add HP to mobs.. or allow them to stun players (edemo.... PoM). And lord knows the player base will QQ hard and maybe rage quit if anything else is put into game like Madness.. lol.

I think the way to make content more challenginig is much more than fixing bondings.
In case I run with a GF+DC+Hunter+CW my damage is more than tripled...
The best way to give dungeons a challenging note , would be a complete rework of the class feats and powers and buffs, who stack and interact in an obvious silly way , making content trivial.

silence1x

schietindebux said:

The best way to give dungeons a challenging note , would be a complete rework of the class feats and powers and buffs, who stack and interact in an obvious silly way , making content trivial.

Probably so but remember this - we live in a society that wants low-risk, high-reward stuff MORE than learning something new and using that knowledge to advance whether it be in an MMORPG, playing a musical instrument, investing in the stock marker or painting a picture.

A lot of people in this forum complain a lot more about stuff that affects them specifically instead of everyone giving the devs cohesive and accurate information about proposed changes.

"Nerf THEM but MY class is okay/needs a buff!!"

durugudesu

rescorlian said:

Was waiting for this one, have to admit, in a most guilty manner. Back when Castle never was the hardest thing, and working your way up to it was the goal, one class reigned supreme. The CW, matching their DPS was nigh on impossible. And boy oh boy, the VAST majority of them didn't miss an opportunity to remind you of it. Why you play GWF, it's a s#^% class, I had spoken to me on many more than one occasion. The insults and put downs still haven't stopped, unskilled class to play and so on and so forth. When the big nerf came down and hit them, there was a part of me that was very...satisfied. Seems the most arrogant of players call CW their home. Consider themselves the master class. Case in point...

http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1214641/25-cw-tiamat-run

Don't get me wrong, when looking at the trees I felt bad for the players as getting nerfed sucks. On the opposite side looking at the forest, fix hasn't even hit yet and already digging their GWF lessers graves with a smile on their face and an insult in /zone and /channel lol.

i will still love you, if you figure out who i am. :>

bitt3rnightmar3

rescorlian said:

Don't get me wrong, when looking at the trees I felt bad for the players as getting nerfed sucks. On the opposite side looking at the forest, fix hasn't even hit yet and already digging their GWF lessers graves with a smile on their face and an insult in /zone and /channel lol.

I'm hearing random rumblings from Non-Virtuous DCs and GFs as well though, I know for a fact I've never turned down a run with either of those two types of support classes. I'm usually the first one to help and I enjoy healing a GF more than I do a paladin.

I realize bubble was a problem. Now I'm not sure where to go from here in terms of tanking/healing. Time will tell. I just have to do what I've always done- Be observant and try to be clever about maximizing effectiveness. This double XP I'm leveling my GF. It's the tank I used to play and still has Knight Captain's Armor.

I will say though In terms of control- If i'm running with an undergeared or inexperienced GF through a dungeon as a healer and I usually make my own parties around the tank- I always ask for some CC if where we're going has alot of small trash mobs. Makes it easier for the tank learn to manage aggro and keeps things from stabbing the GF in his flank and gaining combat advantage during an important fight. Not much 3 GWFs can in terms of buffing or debuffing do but having a CW Freezie pop or a TR SB or a Trapper HR with 1 or 2 other single target DPS works just fine.

ghoulz66

schietindebux said:

@ ghoulz



Warlock will miss a lot of sparkgain from lolset, Hadar Grasp spend 14 sparks on a crit...now it´s one, the main reason using lolset was sparkgain...that's gone.

GWF will also miss a lot of damage by poor procs from lolset , capped at 2k, no procs higher than 2000! So GWF will stay in a good spot for sure, but he will miss >20% of his damage.

Wait for the needed nerf and decide where to go.

Btw. a good , PVE focussed TR is at least same level than a warlock on single target or better...there are only very few , who run an optimized build, but I met some.

Same about CW, who melts trash in seconds and can deal great damage on single target. I run some fast runs with my warlock and a CW "Apache" (+DC+GF+OP)..and he dealt pretty high damage.

One of our guild TR´s runs a pretty nasty build and if ever you met him you would tell the same, Sonir.

It´s all about the build you run and the player and not only about a setbonus I am sure.

First the lolset is fixed and afterwards classbalance will follow, that´s what is said, and that´s what we wait for since long.

This hurts a pvp SW, but 95% of players could care less about pvp these days.

Murderous Flames, TT, and the puppet could care less about sparks.

rescorlian

@durugudesu

I love you too, Master party planner Louuuuu
After seeing a pic of you, you're cute as hell ^^

@thefabricant

Got defensive, started going through your old discussions and comments to put up a fight and argument. Your words spoke for themselves. I may have a lingering level of bad attitude towards some individuals in regards to attitude that happened to play a class as opposed to been drawn to, causation vs correlation. Feels like time and time again disrespectful communication is thrown in the direction of myself and others as players for the class that I enjoy to play, and that it's VERY community acceptable. So while I want to stand by my words and the thoughts, feelings behind them. I will not deny that you spoke with some strong truths and on point. Sorry about that, I do my best to encourage others not to be nasty to others based on class, and you just called me on doing that very thing.

thefabricant

rescorlian said:

@durugudesu

I love you too, Master party planner Louuuuu
After seeing a pic of you, you're cute as hell ^^

@thefabricant

Got defensive, started going through your old discussions and comments to put up a fight and argument. Your words spoke for themselves. I may have a lingering level of bad attitude towards some individuals in regards to attitude that happened to play a class as opposed to been drawn to, causation vs correlation. Feels like time and time again disrespectful communication is thrown in the direction of myself and others as players for the class that I enjoy to play, and that it's VERY community acceptable. So while I want to stand by my words and the thoughts, feelings behind them. I will not deny that you spoke with some strong truths and on point. Sorry about that, I do my best to encourage others not to be nasty to others based on class, and you just called me on doing that very thing.

</p>

@rescorlian, Ty for that Just 1 niggling disagreement here, I won't give @durugudesu the title of master party planner, I will shamelessly steal that title for myself. (sorry Lou, you are always welcome in my parties though )

romotheone

rescorlian said:

Got defensive, started going through your old discussions and comments to put up a fight and argument. Your words spoke for themselves. I may have a lingering level of bad attitude towards some individuals in regards to attitude that happened to play a class as opposed to been drawn to, causation vs correlation. Feels like time and time again disrespectful communication is thrown in the direction of myself and others as players for the class that I enjoy to play, and that it's VERY community acceptable. So while I want to stand by my words and the thoughts, feelings behind them. I will not deny that you spoke with some strong truths and on point. Sorry about that, I do my best to encourage others not to be nasty to others based on class, and you just called me on doing that very thing.

This was actually beautiful!

commanderdata002

rescorlian said:

Was waiting for this one, have to admit, in a most guilty manner. Back when Castle never was the hardest thing, and working your way up to it was the goal, one class reigned supreme. The CW, matching their DPS was nigh on impossible. And boy oh boy, the VAST majority of them didn't miss an opportunity to remind you of it. Why you play GWF, it's a s#^% class, I had spoken to me on many more than one occasion. The insults and put downs still haven't stopped, unskilled class to play and so on and so forth. When the big nerf came down and hit them, there was a part of me that was very...satisfied. Seems the most arrogant of players call CW their home. Consider themselves the master class. Case in point...

http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1214641/25-cw-tiamat-run

Don't get me wrong, when looking at the trees I felt bad for the players as getting nerfed sucks. On the opposite side looking at the forest, fix hasn't even hit yet and already digging their GWF lessers graves with a smile on their face and an insult in /zone and /channel lol.

Don't worry! We are still here as SW or GWF and we will return
...as Sorcerer...!

zibadawa

Smoke bomb is going to do garbage damage with nerfed elol procs. Crit smoke bomb is a TR's bread-and-butter for AoE DPS. The class will actually play significantly differently when it's doing gimp-tier damage with its most necessary damaging power.

weaver936

Keep in mind, there are Mount Insignia Bonuses that work of Crit too

kemi1984

schietindebux said:

weaver936 said:

I really think the Devs will do more to limit stupid amounts of dmg being dealt out.. (watch out for Bonding Runestone nerfs). Because, the only other way to make content more challenging is to add HP to mobs.. or allow them to stun players (edemo.... PoM). And lord knows the player base will QQ hard and maybe rage quit if anything else is put into game like Madness.. lol.

I think the way to make content more challenginig is much more than fixing bondings.
In case I run with a GF+DC+Hunter+CW my damage is more than tripled...
The best way to give dungeons a challenging note , would be a complete rework of the class feats and powers and buffs, who stack and interact in an obvious silly way , making content trivial.

Ok I will not agree with this one.

Class interactions and synergies should never been blocked/changed/nerfed - you name it.

Why?

Because that's the field on which we, players, can get creative. We can build our character around certain skills, we can build them around certain party composition we like to run with, and we can develop a strategy which can make our gaming fun.

One thing is to get rid of obvious abominations, being broken items or features.

Finding optimal ways to buff, debuff is a core of every game, especially an MMO where community and group game aspect is so important.

We're free to use or refuse to use whatever tools we have. If someone don't want to do it, no problem...

Removing the class synergies is, by far, the worst suggestion I've seen on these forums.

gomok72

urabask said:

lol you must be trolling.

No, he's not, in the end, he should revitalize this post once all the changes are complete, lol.

schietindebux

kemi1984 said:

schietindebux said:

weaver936 said:

I really think the Devs will do more to limit stupid amounts of dmg being dealt out.. (watch out for Bonding Runestone nerfs). Because, the only other way to make content more challenging is to add HP to mobs.. or allow them to stun players (edemo.... PoM). And lord knows the player base will QQ hard and maybe rage quit if anything else is put into game like Madness.. lol.

I think the way to make content more challenginig is much more than fixing bondings.
In case I run with a GF+DC+Hunter+CW my damage is more than tripled...
The best way to give dungeons a challenging note , would be a complete rework of the class feats and powers and buffs, who stack and interact in an obvious silly way , making content trivial.

Ok I will not agree with this one.

Class interactions and synergies should never been blocked/changed/nerfed - you name it.

Why?

Because that's the field on which we, players, can get creative. We can build our character around certain skills, we can build them around certain party composition we like to run with, and we can develop a strategy which can make our gaming fun.

One thing is to get rid of obvious abominations, being broken items or features.

Finding optimal ways to buff, debuff is a core of every game, especially an MMO where community and group game aspect is so important.

We're free to use or refuse to use whatever tools we have. If someone don't want to do it, no problem...

Removing the class synergies is, by far, the worst suggestion I've seen on these forums.

150k power infight from stacking buffs, crit rings that double your critchance from 50>100% by bonding procs,
endcontent solved in about 10 seconds by an average 3k GS party? = cr.ap game

kemi1984

This is a result of Cryptic giving us the power we do not need. They do it for a simple reason - to gain more money.
They do not care about the game, it's obvious that when you give power to the players, they will use it.

Giving the ability to do so, and than (as you suggested) blocking a way to use it is plain stupid.
It was said many times before, the dev's lost control - they do not know what's happening in game, they do not have a grasp how many item/skills combinations are available, and how much power we actually have.

They do now have to know that, as long as ZEN is selling, they don't care.

In the meantime, we're waiting for yet another campaign, with another set of very powerful buffs coming from reworked EE.

talon1970

Returning of the TR (and i wrote these as an Pve Tr as mainchar) i would say....no.
Because the most people refusing running with an TR, because everyone says the class is low on dps, could not be useful for the group etcetc...
I know there are very good equipped, with good builds existing Pve TRs but of one of them, there are dozens of PvP TRs, playing with an pvp based builds, encounters, dailys and so on.
So it is clear, that their Pve performance could not be that good (same maybe as an PvP based Gwf).
And it is still in the head of these people (Pve and TR = bad) and sometimes when they have an good Pve Tr in a group (Tiamat, edemo) they are surprised how good these guys can perform.

For me an Pve Tr could bring everything to the group: cc, decent aoe dps, very good single dps and debuff.
But we are rare, and we will be rare in the future, so we will be (maybe) forever a filler class.

Greetings

blinxon

Hi, im just curious. What kinda debuff do you mean with your TR?

talon1970

blinxon said:

Hi, im just curious. What kinda debuff do you mean with your TR?

Hi Blinxon^^

Well, wicked reminder (encounter), sly flourish (at will) and courage breaker (daily), they all have the abilities to reduce the damage resistence of an target or the damage dealt from a target.
"If" the german translation is correct and we both know that these is not sure in many cases^^.