Make all powers useful...

bioshrike

I will preface this by saying that this is MY experience with the game, so take it for what it's worth...

With all this talk about power balance, I thought I would bring up how there seems to be certain powers or power combinations that are just "better" than others, when it comes to playing the game, (varied based upon character class and level, of course), while there are also powers that you basically never need to bother with.

I realize that not every power can be equal, but I would like to see more done to make *every* power appealing. In particular, many powers either have too long of a cooldown or too short of a duration, to be truly useful - a 1 second daze that doesn't increase as your rank up a power, or power animations seemingly not being considered with regard to a power's balance are just a few examples...

So what do you think?

ambisinisterr

I am inclined to agree in many instances however there are limitations on how far from the PnP variants they can go.

Some powers might be able to be fixed with a shorter cooldown but others I don't know if they could ever be considered effective short of making an overpowered cooldown.

I think getting a discussion going on which powers are lackluster would get a great start, though.

snotty

This is still fall out from the game nuke that was mod 6.

Before mod 6 you could stand your ground with even the most pointless HAMSTER build you could think of for any class as long as you had good gear. Post mod 6, most of the classes ended up being all but forced into using 1 build. Now don't get me wrong, a lot of classes did have a preferred build pre mod 6 like the GWFs destroyer build but you didn't have to use it or be worthless like it is now. The game was easier if you use certain builds but you could still make it on your own using the other 2 builds.

Since mod 6 most classes only have 1 viable feat tree, 2 if they're lucky and 1 or 2 feat trees that are all but useless. We're forced to optimize our builds just to get through the content. So gone are the days when you could (just for fun) decide to run your dailies with a random set of skills. Now you have your rotation that pretty much every else playing your class has.

As for which powers are lackluster, I would say most of them. I don't know many people who other switching out skills anymore like we use to pre mod 6. Ironically, A lot of them became lackluster due to the devs attempts to balance the classes.


And true balance will never happen because the devs keep trying to balance the classes based on 2 very different types of game play. PvP and PvE are just too different to expect anyone to find a balance between them. You're talking about (in some cases) completely different stats, skills, and more importantly gear.

I loved PvP back before the devs added pvp gear with the stupid tenacity stat. IMHO, that was the last time the game was balanced. Back then you had 1 epic gear set, the CN gear. It was perfectly fine for running PvE and PvP. And since everyone could get it from either running CN or buying it of the AH it kept the classes more closely balanced.

But alas, nothing lasts forever and here we are trying to figure out how to fix to fixes we did for something that was never broken.

bioshrike

snotty said:

And true balance will never happen because the devs keep trying to balance the classes based on 2 very different types of game play. PvP and PvE are just too different to expect anyone to find a balance between them. You're talking about (in some cases) completely different stats, skills, and more importantly gear.

I'm not expecting there to be "true balance", but at least a concerted effort to make the majority of powers for any given class attractive to use - not just the 3 or so powers that are "must-have's".

warpet

bioshrike said:

I will preface this by saying that this is MY experience with the game, so take it for what it's worth...

With all this talk about power balance, I thought I would bring up how there seems to be certain powers or power combinations that are just "better" than others, when it comes to playing the game, (varied based upon character class and level, of course), while there are also powers that you basically never need to bother with.

I realize that not every power can be equal, but I would like to see more done to make *every* power appealing. In particular, many powers either have too long of a cooldown or too short of a duration, to be truly useful - a 1 second daze that doesn't increase as your rank up a power, or power animations seemingly not being considered with regard to a power's balance are just a few examples...

So what do you think?

yeah there are so many at wills,encounters,dailies and feats no one use just wish they would buff

kvet

I've leveled 2 of each class to 70 plus an extra few on top of that (19 toons so far). Even post M6 - under regular leveling content and even shar and DR - any logical build will do, just like always. Any path, any class as long as it's not clearly illogical - like a WIS/CON TR with no capstones or something - can solo just fine. Some will take more effort and strategy (and more gold for heals), but it's possible. IWD and WoW start posing problems, but they're hard even for "conventional" BiS builds (meaning even "good" builds will die fast if they aren't paying close attention)

Any class with a logical build and over 2.5k GS can handle at least up to DR solo, and can handle and can contribute just fine in a party. 3 such players can handle IWD and Shar easy, and 5 can do eLOL easily provided the class makeup includes a tank and healer.

The real problem isn't that there are only a few or one viable builds for any given class, but rather that there that builds that are clearly superior and as such players feel compelled to use them to remain "competitive".

It's the same problem faced with the LoL set and is a valid concern, but don't make it out like other builds than these specific ones are not viable because that's simple not true.

My main, Sekhmet, follows no CW build template - I made it up on my own - and I frequently (90% of the time) come out on top in Paingiver and kills in parties even when partnered with similarly geared friends (3.5k+). My build would be considered "not viable" but yet, I'm living proof of the innaccuracy of that statement.

uptondarkdiamond

This is a interesting topic and I like it!

snotty said:

All stuff he/she said

I think snotty hit all his/her points on the head. Prior to Mod 6 you had atypical builds that could to all content and didn't get hassled (a lot) about what spec there or even gear they were using. I know this because I ran full oppressor (i really do mean all my points in oppressor) and was able to do all content smoothly (by using smoothly I don't mean everything was trivial) and really didn't miss the dps. Sure, every once in awhile I would get the comment that my dps was subpar, but I didn't really care back then. My GWF was a little tanky but again didn't care because I could do all content with him.
Fast forward to now and can all classes and all spec's do all content smoothly? This not the case for most classes. I would go as far to say there are classes that have only 1 good viable way to play, so why even have 3 tree's when they are not useful? I also agree that when the Dev's to try to balance because of PvP or PvE, it sometimes has the effect of breaking 1 part or the other depending on what they try to balance for. I know the age old augment that there will never be a PvP tree but there should be it would make things so much easier on folks. I remember there being a similar argument for having greater then 5 man que's and look at what we got now...
So while everyone it looking at power balance maybe it time to look at the none viable tree's for the classes and/or maybe time to add a PvP tree. I don't know. There are lots of talented people for each class and you can read about there idea's on this stuff in the applicable class forums. At the moment if people want to see what changes are coming they should go to the test shard and see the current changes planned and provide clear concise feedback on what is working and not working. If more people do this instead of whine about the "nerf" or "fix", maybe we will see a push to kinda make it like mod 5 in a way (i'm not saying put everything in easy mode) where each tree was viable no matter the content.

kvet

revjimjones said:

People use the terms "Not Viable" around here to mean not able to Min/Max to squeeze out every possible numerical advantage.

Yup, I totally agree. My point is that it's just not necessary. I guess for those folks who *must* be top of the pile and are willing to pay hundreds of dollars a month for it... it's necessary... but for normal players, it's really not. You can be perfectly viable in Neverwinter without particularly min/maxing your toon. You might even find you're more effective when you create your own build based on how you play, like having custom sports gear made to fit you perfectly. For me, when I ride using someone else's tack, even if it's REALLY nice stuff, I don't feel nearly as confident than when I'm on my own saddle even if it's not high end - it's good enough, and I can ride any trail there is with my own tack. Neverwinter is no different.

silence1x

kvet said:

I don't feel nearly as confident than when I'm on my own saddle even if it's not high end - it's good enough, and I can ride any trail there is with my own tack. Neverwinter is no different.

Kvet - blazing the trails in NW since 2012

Having recently started playing my HR again (first character in NW), I can empathize with this thread. SW Archery has fallen out of favor with most HRs but I still like playing that path. I like to snipe from a distance so the path suits me very well. It's a shame that one or two builds per class have taken over. Oh well, the less traveled path has fewer traffic jams

bioshrike

kvet said:

revjimjones said:

People use the terms "Not Viable" around here to mean not able to Min/Max to squeeze out every possible numerical advantage.

Yup, I totally agree. My point is that it's just not necessary. I guess for those folks who *must* be top of the pile and are willing to pay hundreds of dollars a month for it... it's necessary... but for normal players, it's really not. You can be perfectly viable in Neverwinter without particularly min/maxing your toon. You might even find you're more effective when you create your own build based on how you play, like having custom sports gear made to fit you perfectly. For me, when I ride using someone else's tack, even if it's REALLY nice stuff, I don't feel nearly as confident than when I'm on my own saddle even if it's not high end - it's good enough, and I can ride any trail there is with my own tack. Neverwinter is no different.

To me, it's not so much about min/maxing, it's about power A simply not being as good, overall, as power B. I have no doubt that an experienced player can get through all the PvE content with nearly any power combination, it's just that some powers are objectively better than others, so the underperformers should be brought up or reworked...

demonmonger

Amen

demonmonger

Remove the target cap from TR skill wicked reminder!

aslan3775

One of the really interesting things about NW is that if you watch/read/study the various class forums, you will see people every few days or weeks extolling a new build for specific methods of playing--you can opt for the 'Lazalia' cookie cutter approach, or get hints to work on a unique play style, or ignore the conventional wisdom and develop your own--for example, Archer HRs that never say die because they really like that concept and play style, so they 'make it work'. Are they #1 paingiver? Maybe not. Probably not. In this, I think I am echoing what KVET said in previous posts.

In game, i notice plenty of players playing their class and not following the 'conventional wisdom' to create the highest DPS--yet I assume they are having fun playing their toons, even if they aren't top of the charts. Isn't that why we should be playing a game--to have fun? If they have fun by choosing an option that is 'unpopular' or 'non-viable', and if they are not top Paingiver, so what? Maybe to them, going 'smoke', shadow lurk, and swoosh five or six times is boring. Maybe they just discovered a new method that does an incredible amount of damage by combining it with other boons/classes (ie. Hawkeye). Just looking at that power and description in the tooltip, who in their right mind would take that power?

Which, I think after rambling way too much, really brings me to my point--if the devs make changes to each and every power that we believe is 'inferior' or doesn't create a viable option, based upon the law of unintended consequences, how many of those changes will result in strange interactions that create the '200 million' damage kill shots?

With so many inventive players in NW, you can bet at least one of them will find out.

To better answer the OP's question, my humble opinion is that 'one man's trash is another man's treasure', and when one person sees little or no viability in a certain path, another may see the ultimate combination. I would not be in favor of tweaking to make all the powers or paths equal. To paraphrase the Incredibles--"If every path is super, then no path is super"

zibadawa

Doing this flies in the face of D&D itself, as far as I'm concerned. D&D has long had lots and lot of spells/powers. Not because they were able to design lots and lots of useful stuff, but because they were able to create a highly varied, magical, and at times whimsical world. And that's what D&D is about. It doesn't translate perfectly into MMO's, but I'd rather the focus be on "an adequate number of viable abilities" rather than "everything is good." It's more in-line with the setting, and more sane from a development standpoint.

bioshrike

zibadawa said:

Doing this flies in the face of D&D itself, as far as I'm concerned. D&D has long had lots and lot of spells/powers. Not because they were able to design lots and lots of useful stuff, but because they were able to create a highly varied, magical, and at times whimsical world. And that's what D&D is about. It doesn't translate perfectly into MMO's, but I'd rather the focus be on "an adequate number of viable abilities" rather than "everything is good." It's more in-line with the setting, and more sane from a development standpoint.

Since D&D dealt with a DM and players, one could use powers in widely varied ways - here, you are very restricted in how, where, and in what way you can use said powers. Thus, a power which may not do a lot of direct damage may have a lot of utility to someone who can think creatively. That last option isn't available here, so powers need to be made more functional in their basic implementation.

Again, I want to stress that the problem isn't that you *can't* play using certain powers - it's that there are generally much better ones that accomplish the same thing.

lantern22

All powers are useful, its just that some aren't as useful as others. If you have different sets of Powers there will always be some that are better than the others. At least if some are really HAMSTER, it easier for the newbs (like me) to tell the good from the bad. Close the gap and I won't be able to tell them apart.

wimpazoid

To even encourage players to adopt powers variation, Neverwinter first and foremost needs to overcome its outdated loadout mechanic which limits players to a single loadout with a time consuming and combersome method of changing powers while running content topped with power switch delay countdown timer.

As it stands, we are forced to pick out the best in slot loadout. It's not players not wanting to utilize more of their unlock powers, it's just most of the time it isn't practical, except when you set up your loadout at the beginning of playing/fights. What we need is to open up the options since the level cap raise and overflow power points have expanded everyone's power list, and thereby improving our gameplay combat dynamic.

The game badly needs a double loadout solution that can be tabbed switched quickly without countdown penalty much like the HR encounters switch when outside of combat, but has a shared cooldown on encounter powers/slots when switch in combat to prevent double encounters use. This is the minimum to improve combat dynamic to deal with trash adds and elite adds on the fly and make better use of power combinations instead of having to cater for both within 3 encounters.

What I suggested is not simply 2 loadouts but instead lets players form their own playstyles freely with their own power combinations. Example:

Encounters: 1 2 3
Loadout 1: Smoke bomb / Dazing strike / Wicked Reminder
Loadout 2: Blitz / Blade Flurry / Lashing Blade

Players freely switch between loadouts, using smoke bomb puts encounter slot 1 (blitz) on shared cooldown for duration of smoke bomb's cooldown. Player can follow up with dazing strike for closely group enemies or blade flurry for loosely surrounding enemies. This gives players the freedom of their own power combinations and play styles (which encounters and which slot to slot) and effectively more power combinations than simply 2 loadouts instead of following the 3 BIS powers in some guide.

I have no suggestions to make all powers useful, this just makes more powers useful, because there is no equality when the meta is to slot 3 BIS encounters. No matter how many times balancing takes place, it's only the changing of the 3 BIS encounters.

flambridge

A easy method to implement this, wimpazoid, are in "F" (F1, F2, F3 etc)
In each "F" could input one loadout or build. If one power cooldown, next "F" auto enter.
(The "auto" or "manual" mode, can be choise pressing button and in Options HUD.)

wimpazoid

flambridge said:

A easy method to implement this, wimpazoid, are in "F" (F1, F2, F3 etc)
In each "F" could input one loadout or build. If one power cooldown, next "F" auto enter.
(The "auto" or "manual" mode, can be choise pressing button and in Options HUD.)

If I'm to understand what you're saying, if a power goes on cooldown, a player can replace it (or gets auto replaced) with a usable encounter? But I don't want that.

My solution, in giving players more freedom in power use/combinations does not and should not circumvent the 3 encounters cooldown mechanic, otherwise it will dynamically increase a players' dps output and throw content balance out of sync.

adinosii

The ability to switch between loadouts is something I would be willing to pay for. I image some restrictions (you have to be out of combat with no powers on cooldown) but it would be a great quality-of-life improvement.

It would be even better if you could not only switch powers with a single button but also gear.

For example I have different power/gear combinations for the following situations:

1 Almost all solo content.
2 Demonic Escape HE
3 Dungeons in an average party
3a trash
3b bosses
4 Dungeons in a highly-geared party
4a trash
4b bosses
5 eDemo
6 Dragons (heralds, dragonflight or Tiamat)

zibadawa

This is basically just an implementation of the tabletop mechanics from 4e (I never got around to playing 5e, so don't know if it's similar there). You always had a fixed number of dailies, at-wills, and encounters available to you that you select ahead of time (care to guess how many of each?). Normally you can't even change them until you level up.

wimpazoid

zibadawa said:

This is basically just an implementation of the tabletop mechanics from 4e (I never got around to playing 5e, so don't know if it's similar there). You always had a fixed number of dailies, at-wills, and encounters available to you that you select ahead of time (care to guess how many of each?). Normally you can't even change them until you level up.

Unlike pnp, everything here is predictable which unfortunately only serves to funnel players into similar BIS choices. There's nothing to encourage variations but our own whim, so even if all powers were well balanced, the top 3 with the slightest edge will still be BIS. Sometimes it boils down to the translation, whether there's a necessity to be exactly the same.

wimpazoid

crainium#5721 said:

wimpazoid said:

zibadawa said:

This is basically just an implementation of the tabletop mechanics from 4e (I never got around to playing 5e, so don't know if it's similar there). You always had a fixed number of dailies, at-wills, and encounters available to you that you select ahead of time (care to guess how many of each?). Normally you can't even change them until you level up.

Unlike pnp, everything here is predictable which unfortunately only serves to funnel players into similar BIS choices. There's nothing to encourage variations but our own whim, so even if all powers were well balanced, the top 3 with the slightest edge will still be BIS. Sometimes it boils down to the translation, whether there's a necessity to be exactly the same.

why cant it be u need that skill to fight against that group, or set /combination of skills for different area's even, fireballs were my favourite in original Baldaur's gate but it was a group effort that continue'd me through. By the way if ya make me actually need the other skills, try uping the the return on power points, like so many levels an one power point, be forever trying to fill up all my skills.

Because there will be even less player's choice. If a certain power is effective against a certain type of enemy, then everyone will be forced to take the same powers when spending power points and play the same way. Not to mention how frustrating it would be to not have loadout switching in areas with mixed types.

However, I'll like to comment on the group effort part but instead of needing powers, all classes can (should) have team based buffs class features, so it turns into having the class be useful in team play ie. TR is too much of a solo class that brings little to the table in groups.

zibadawa

wimpazoid said:

zibadawa said:

This is basically just an implementation of the tabletop mechanics from 4e (I never got around to playing 5e, so don't know if it's similar there). You always had a fixed number of dailies, at-wills, and encounters available to you that you select ahead of time (care to guess how many of each?). Normally you can't even change them until you level up.

Unlike pnp, everything here is predictable which unfortunately only serves to funnel players into similar BIS choices. There's nothing to encourage variations but our own whim, so even if all powers were well balanced, the top 3 with the slightest edge will still be BIS. Sometimes it boils down to the translation, whether there's a necessity to be exactly the same.

Fun fact: Any halfway decent DM will adjust and design adventures around the actual capabilities of the party at hand. "Punishing" players and parties over their design choices usually doesn't go over any better on the table than it does on the computer. Usually worse, since then you're face-to-face with the victims. This is one of the major reasons that tabletop D&D can support many playstyles, and even "sub-optimal" choices within a given style: because DMs tend to know/realize/read in the DM's guide that it's in everyone's best interest to fit adventures to the party rather than the other way around.

So it's not especially unpredictable in actual practice. Way less repetitive, though.

Alright, guys, for the next month in-game you need to kill 500 yetis a day. And we're going to play out every single combat in entirety. And if you're wondering where 15,000 yetis came from, then it's...uh...magical stuff happened that made them breed like bunnies and grow like weeds. Incidentally, it turns out the answer to "What do you get when you cross a bunny with a weed?" is "a yeti."