Content balance vs Class Balance

lukejones77

Right now (April 1), there's discussion which is basically about Content Balance, and several ways to address that.
At the end-game, there's virtually no challenge anywhere - no risk, and rewards that build very slowly.
The April Fool's Day post is talking about nerfing things that restore Content Balance - overpowered damage from an offensive perspective, and party invulnerability from a defensive perspective.
We absolutely need Content Balance, and the post explanations of it being far more practical to nerf powers than to boost content difficulty do make sense.

It's been a long time since we had class nerfs, and I'm guessing that the mass exit of players from game at time of the last big nerf is the reason for that. This was the CW nerf that happened the day before the that big PvP tourney. Following a long string of nerfs to the CW class, this seemed to be the straw that broke the camels back for a great many CWs, who disappeared from the game within a couple of days.

That's probably what's so clever about an April Fool's day post. You can test the water with nerf announcements, and if you get a reaction bad enough to likely cause exits that would effect the game bottom line - you have plausible deniability, and can just move on as if nothing happened!

My suggestion is that you must carefully work Class Balance in with Content Balance. I don't believe that people leave the game because primarily because their powers get a nerf. I believe that they leave because of where they sit in terms of viability compared to other classes. You can place a huge amount of time, effort and even money, only to find that it's wasted.
The game now officially recognizes 3 roles - healer, tank, and DPS. It's built right into the heart of concern for class viability - the queuing system constraints. If you don't heal, and you don't tank - then you are DPS. If you are The Anointed DPS Class (massive power, massive at-will DPS, strong, fast, outperforming other DPS classes with about 1000 less gear score - so quick and cheap to build), then lucky you!
If you are DPS and not The Anointed DPS class, then I suggest that the only reason you are currently viable is that the current content is too trivial, and parties can currently afford to take you along. But, when the Content Balance is fixed and non-trivial, expect that Class Balance to become very, very important.
The irony here is that the Lostmauth set benefits the Anointed DPS class less than the also-ran DPS classes. The also-ran DPS classes were forced to abandon their class sets (the ones where the belt benefited their abilities), because it gives so much more DPS than anything else happening for them. The Anointed DPS class will actually less affected by a nerf than the also-ran DPS classes.
Spot fixing Content Balance in the way described will go someways to fixing Content Balance, but will make Class Balance worse, in a way that will make also-ran DPS classes wonder where their fun in the game went.
I expect that when the Content Balance is finally challenging again, also-ran DPS classes are going to struggle for those invites.

engineerofevil

How do you justify nerfing Protection by 70%? Most people want a nerf to this class or that class, but always never discussing balance or the repercussions. Is there an explanation why they nerfed it into the ground, the class is almost useless now. They could of least gave the Paladin some more dps to offset this.

sm0ld3r

It's simple. The developers simply don't understand the game. The OP class will be dead after this nerf simply because they bring NOTHING to the table as far as a group tank (or dps) after the nerf. Perhaps even more importantly they will not be fun to play anymore.

clericalist

sm0ld3r said:

It's simple. The developers simply don't understand the game. The OP class will be dead after this nerf simply because they bring NOTHING to the table as far as a group tank (or dps) after the nerf. Perhaps even more importantly they will not be fun to play anymore.

I beg to differ, I cannot see how playing a class with god mode is fun. If the real intent of the palladin was to provide immortality and make dungeons and skirmishes mind numbing then perhaps some will be upset, however nobody can seriously argue that is supposed to be its role, a tank/healer hybrid is what a palladin is supposed to be. You say the developers don't understand this game, but if they leave the absurd palladin as is, they simply do not understand any game.

thefabricant

lukejones77 said:

Right now (April 1), there's discussion which is basically about Content Balance, and several ways to address that.
At the end-game, there's virtually no challenge anywhere - no risk, and rewards that build very slowly.
The April Fool's Day post is talking about nerfing things that restore Content Balance - overpowered damage from an offensive perspective, and party invulnerability from a defensive perspective.
We absolutely need Content Balance, and the post explanations of it being far more practical to nerf powers than to boost content difficulty do make sense.

It's been a long time since we had class nerfs, and I'm guessing that the mass exit of players from game at time of the last big nerf is the reason for that. This was the CW nerf that happened the day before the that big PvP tourney. Following a long string of nerfs to the CW class, this seemed to be the straw that broke the camels back for a great many CWs, who disappeared from the game within a couple of days.

That's probably what's so clever about an April Fool's day post. You can test the water with nerf announcements, and if you get a reaction bad enough to likely cause exits that would effect the game bottom line - you have plausible deniability, and can just move on as if nothing happened!

My suggestion is that you must carefully work Class Balance in with Content Balance. I don't believe that people leave the game because primarily because their powers get a nerf. I believe that they leave because of where they sit in terms of viability compared to other classes. You can place a huge amount of time, effort and even money, only to find that it's wasted.
The game now officially recognizes 3 roles - healer, tank, and DPS. It's built right into the heart of concern for class viability - the queuing system constraints. If you don't heal, and you don't tank - then you are DPS. If you are The Anointed DPS Class (massive power, massive at-will DPS, strong, fast, outperforming other DPS classes with about 1000 less gear score - so quick and cheap to build), then lucky you!
If you are DPS and not The Anointed DPS class, then I suggest that the only reason you are currently viable is that the current content is too trivial, and parties can currently afford to take you along. But, when the Content Balance is fixed and non-trivial, expect that Class Balance to become very, very important.
The irony here is that the Lostmauth set benefits the Anointed DPS class less than the also-ran DPS classes. The also-ran DPS classes were forced to abandon their class sets (the ones where the belt benefited their abilities), because it gives so much more DPS than anything else happening for them. The Anointed DPS class will actually less affected by a nerf than the also-ran DPS classes.
Spot fixing Content Balance in the way described will go someways to fixing Content Balance, but will make Class Balance worse, in a way that will make also-ran DPS classes wonder where their fun in the game went.
I expect that when the Content Balance is finally challenging again, also-ran DPS classes are going to struggle for those invites.

Very well written Seth, I am right behind you.

lukejones77

kalindra said:

But what drives me away is the prospect of having invested once again many millions of AD and hundreds of hours of game time in an character, I probably can't play again decently again many months, maybe for years.

This is the Dev challenge: nerf (painstaikingly built) characters, or beef content, to bring back the challenge.
They've stated that beefing the content is technically too challenging for them, and nobody wants to go back to those frustrating days of constant bugs. Another bout of that would probably kill the game.

If they nerf cleverly, they *can* scale the difficulty up, without encouraging/forcing people to respec in expensive ways. It's simply harder all-around. Let's hope that's what we get.

darthtzarr

kalindra said:

"At the end-game, there's virtually no challenge anywhere"

That's true for maybe 5% of the community, if not even less.

I think it is higher than 5% of the end-game players (level 70). The issue is that all it takes is 1 of these "5%" to show up in your group, and suddenly all content is trivial for everyone. A 4k paladin showed up in our guild, and suddenly a group of 2ks could walk into CN, and completely wreck the whole thing without ever dying (or even taking damage). I was one of these brand new 2ks. It was horribly boring. Not because it took a long time (the paladin could do unreasonably high dps), but because there was 0% chance of failure, and absolute no reason for anyone other than the paladin to be there.

darkrhox

I have a Paladin what is one of my favourite characters in RPGs (the othere here is... erm... I think the developers never played with any D&D before or idk). I think it's really strong here if we choose the protector path. BUT! It's ok that it needs some changes but why paladins need to be killed? 20 to 6 second bubble... I think 20 to 12 and 80% to 60% can be more balanced. Won't be a nerfed big nothing but will loose the "god mode". With Echo I'm not happy but that's ok. Binding Oath is a hard thing I think it's another big "mistake" just like DP but that's really a complicated thing. But ok... I don't use Heroism and Shield of Faith (because we have DP with protector) but I think Heroism was ok and maybe Shield can be ok if they change that from 30 to 40. But that's just my idea. What is the main point is: Why paladins need to be nerfed/killed/destroyed instead of a normal balance??????????? I really hope the developers start to make this game better and make useful pathes and make it balanced instead of these idk thing what they do. But first of all I hope the developers will start to play with other D&D RPGs (not just video games) and start to read D&D books to know this world because this game is just an RPG what has a place in D&D world but it's really far from D&D! I'm really sad because of it and I really don't understand why they kill characters instead of made all of them balanced. Just to know with my Paladin (2500-2600 item lvl) I really hate CWs and Warlocks with around 3k (and more) item lvl but I don't start to cry and ask the developers to kill those characters because every character is good in something and every character can be balanced so I will never ask anyone to kill other classes because I die sometimes... This is a game and the games are not fun because we will never die but fun if we can enjoy that! That means we will die too... and this is not the developers mistake!!! So pls be balanced and be fair too!!!

deathbeez

kalindra said:

This game should be based on cooperation, not competition;

True that. MMOs are really the total opposite. Selfishness, greed, and a motivation of superiority.
And PvP with the D&D IP is a no-win scenario.
D&D is supposed to have unbalanced classed because they're unique skill-sets/abilities bring survivability and adventure to the group. But PvP'ers are a good portion of the cash cows (and a very vocal minority) so their constant bickering of `nerf this`, `buff that`, rinse repeat, spills over into the rest of the game.

mynaam

clericalist said:

sm0ld3r said:

It's simple. The developers simply don't understand the game. The OP class will be dead after this nerf simply because they bring NOTHING to the table as far as a group tank (or dps) after the nerf. Perhaps even more importantly they will not be fun to play anymore.

I beg to differ, I cannot see how playing a class with god mode is fun. If the real intent of the palladin was to provide immortality and make dungeons and skirmishes mind numbing then perhaps some will be upset, however nobody can seriously argue that is supposed to be its role, a tank/healer hybrid is what a palladin is supposed to be. You say the developers don't understand this game, but if they leave the absurd palladin as is, they simply do not understand any game.

I beg to differ, I cannot see how playing a class with god mode is fun. If the real intent of the palladin was to provide immortality and make dungeons and skirmishes mind numbing then perhaps some will be upset, however nobody can seriously argue that is supposed to be its role, a tank/healer hybrid is what a palladin is supposed to be. You say the developers don't understand this game, but if they leave the absurd palladin as is, they simply do not understand any game.

Try pugging CN without a OP and you will have a "No More Players will join this queue" message on top of the screen before long.. It is sad that this game is now only meant for big guild end 3k+ players. Taking away the one thing that still helped smaller guilds and players below 3k is just dumb.

I have 3k Characters and find no problem playing EDemo, CN, Tiamat. When I switch to a character lower level than 3k (Same player same, game experience) I have 0% chance of doing EDemo, CN, Tiamat. I am in a small guild meaning It is near impossible to get a full Tiamat or Edemo group together (definitely on a regular basis). Take away the one option that helped us survive in environment designed for BIG guilds is just going to cause another exodus even worst than when they had that repeated nerf of the CW. It seems that "the Powers that be" only listen to their friends that are in big guilds and never take characters through the game on the live server using SOLO or small guilds. I really recommend they start doing that so they see why the majority of they're player base is unhappy.

clericalist

mynaam said:

Try pugging CN without a OP and you will have a "No More Players will join this queue" message on top of the screen before long.. It is sad that this game is now only meant for big guild end 3k+ players. Taking away the one thing that still helped smaller guilds and players below 3k is just dumb.

I have 3k Characters and find no problem playing EDemo, CN, Tiamat. When I switch to a character lower level than 3k (Same player same, game experience) I have 0% chance of doing EDemo, CN, Tiamat. I am in a small guild meaning It is near impossible to get a full Tiamat or Edemo group together (definitely on a regular basis). Take away the one option that helped us survive in environment designed for BIG guilds is just going to cause another exodus even worst than when they had that repeated nerf of the CW. It seems that "the Powers that be" only listen to their friends that are in big guilds and never take characters through the game on the live server using SOLO or small guilds. I really recommend they start doing that so they see why the majority of they're player base is unhappy.

I managed to PUG with a team that had a 2.2 IL GF and we finished it (no bubbledins, no virtuous cleric). I have also done a lot of PUGs that failed, and that really is how it is supposed to be, they should have a certain failure rate, what this is I don't know but perhaps a team with 2k IL should be able to do CN 25% of the time. Right now there are people that think everything should be done with ease and that the only real challenge they have is how fast they do it, nobody asks if they can do the dungeon, this really kills enjoyment in my opinions. The best dungeon runs I had were the old CN and Dread Vaults in PUG, the failure rate was high, but nothing was sweeter than winning with a PUG in those dungeons.

thefabricant

mynaam said:

Try pugging CN without a OP and you will have a "No More Players will join this queue" message on top of the screen before long.. It is sad that this game is now only meant for big guild end 3k+ players. Taking away the one thing that still helped smaller guilds and players below 3k is just dumb.

I have 3k Characters and find no problem playing EDemo, CN, Tiamat. When I switch to a character lower level than 3k (Same player same, game experience) I have 0% chance of doing EDemo, CN, Tiamat. I am in a small guild meaning It is near impossible to get a full Tiamat or Edemo group together (definitely on a regular basis). Take away the one option that helped us survive in environment designed for BIG guilds is just going to cause another exodus even worst than when they had that repeated nerf of the CW. It seems that "the Powers that be" only listen to their friends that are in big guilds and never take characters through the game on the live server using SOLO or small guilds. I really recommend they start doing that so they see why the majority of they're player base is unhappy.

I have pugged CN 5 times, of those 5 times, for 4 of them I soloed the last boss and guess what, for 2 of those solo kills I wore the HV set and had 40k HP. When a GWF/TR dies I don't really blame them, they are relying on a tank to keep them alive, but when a ranged dps, a dc, a GF or somehow an OP dies, its entirely their fault and they should be held accountable. You don't have to be 3k+ to solo orcus, if you were patient, you could do it with level 10 gear on a ranged character using the worst dps rotation for your class possible.

bitt3rnightmar3

deathbeez said:

kalindra said:

This game should be based on cooperation, not competition;

True that. MMOs are really the total opposite. Selfishness, greed, and a motivation of superiority.
And PvP with the D&D IP is a no-win scenario.
D&D is supposed to have unbalanced classed because they're unique skill-sets/abilities bring survivability and adventure to the group. But PvP'ers are a good portion of the cash cows (and a very vocal minority) so their constant bickering of `nerf this`, `buff that`, rinse repeat, spills over into the rest of the game.

Deathbeez- I couldn't agree more. Each class is supposed to be the best at *something*. We're moving into environment where everyone can tank/heal/dps any content with the right gear/mount and insignia/companion set up. We won't really need healers or tanks when mount bonuses and companions will make up for that. Unless something is done to change that- the skills will all reach the same level of mediocrity alone and the game will be entirely gear and item dependent even more than it is right now.

unstableviking

Though it is quite rewarding to actually finish a T2 dungeon, failing 75% + of the time starts to make it a "WHY EVEN BOTHER" to alot of us. I play this game for fun, but failing to achieve a "win" over and over and over and over again makes it an UNPLAYABLE game and therefor, the game becomes NOT FUN. I created an OP so that my guild members will be able to experience a "WIN" in CN/ToS/GWD from time to time... nerfing the OP, especially after I have put everything I had into it to make it a "viable" toon will be MY "Straw that broke the Camels back". As others did when Mod 6 came out, I stopped putting any money into this game.. but I was thinking of actually buying another $50 - $100 USD worth of Zen to advance my toons ( I have 9 of them) because I really started to enjoy the game again.... but NO WAY NO HOW any more.

DO any of you ever run (with your lvl 70) any of the "BABY dungeons" ? They are a walk through with no chance to fail. Most run them for the quick AD... but you get no other rewards as a 70. In CN/ToS/GWD you actually get decent rewards so yes, they should be harder.. but NOT impossible. Take away ANY chance to win, even with a 3k IL and this game will become what Mod 6 did to it.

I have a 2.9k CW that has gone through CN no less the 10 times and has NEVER WON.. players have quit on me because some of the other players were either to weak or we lacked a Pally, so I have completely given up even trying. Once the OP is nerfed, say goodbye to the Pally because a lot of them will be stored or deleted...

qexotic

thefabricant said:

mynaam said:

Try pugging CN without a OP and you will have a "No More Players will join this queue" message on top of the screen before long.. It is sad that this game is now only meant for big guild end 3k+ players. Taking away the one thing that still helped smaller guilds and players below 3k is just dumb.

I have 3k Characters and find no problem playing EDemo, CN, Tiamat. When I switch to a character lower level than 3k (Same player same, game experience) I have 0% chance of doing EDemo, CN, Tiamat. I am in a small guild meaning It is near impossible to get a full Tiamat or Edemo group together (definitely on a regular basis). Take away the one option that helped us survive in environment designed for BIG guilds is just going to cause another exodus even worst than when they had that repeated nerf of the CW. It seems that "the Powers that be" only listen to their friends that are in big guilds and never take characters through the game on the live server using SOLO or small guilds. I really recommend they start doing that so they see why the majority of they're player base is unhappy.

if you were patient, you could do it with level 10 gear on a ranged character using the worst dps rotation for your class possible.

....as long as you don't have one or more green spheres of doom materialise on top of you or right next to you at some point in the proceedings. Been there, done that...unfortunately While they can be avoided, it isn't always possible and when it happens three or four times in succession (like happened last night) and the rest of the party quits one after the other having been similarly afflicted, beating Orcus just isn't achievable.

ianthewizard2012

darkrhox said:

I have a Paladin what is one of my favourite characters in RPGs (the othere here is... erm... I think the developers never played with any D&D before or idk). I think it's really strong here if we choose the protector path. BUT! It's ok that it needs some changes but why paladins need to be killed? 20 to 6 second bubble... I think 20 to 12 and 80% to 60% can be more balanced. Won't be a nerfed big nothing but will loose the "god mode". With Echo I'm not happy but that's ok. Binding Oath is a hard thing I think it's another big "mistake" just like DP but that's really a complicated thing. But ok... I don't use Heroism and Shield of Faith (because we have DP with protector) but I think Heroism was ok and maybe Shield can be ok if they change that from 30 to 40. But that's just my idea. What is the main point is: Why paladins need to be nerfed/killed/destroyed instead of a normal balance??????????? I really hope the developers start to make this game better and make useful pathes and make it balanced instead of these idk thing what they do. But first of all I hope the developers will start to play with other D&D RPGs (not just video games) and start to read D&D books to know this world because this game is just an RPG what has a place in D&D world but it's really far from D&D! I'm really sad because of it and I really don't understand why they kill characters instead of made all of them balanced. Just to know with my Paladin (2500-2600 item lvl) I really hate CWs and Warlocks with around 3k (and more) item lvl but I don't start to cry and ask the developers to kill those characters because every character is good in something and every character can be balanced so I will never ask anyone to kill other classes because I die sometimes... This is a game and the games are not fun because we will never die but fun if we can enjoy that! That means we will die too... and this is not the developers mistake!!! So pls be balanced and be fair too!!!

I, too, really hope they start dabbling in D&D RPGs and rulebooks so that the game could be made more challenging and fun. In D&D, players are supposed to cooperate and aren't supposed to solo quests overly.

bitt3rnightmar3 said:

deathbeez said:

kalindra said:

This game should be based on cooperation, not competition;

True that. MMOs are really the total opposite. Selfishness, greed, and a motivation of superiority.
And PvP with the D&D IP is a no-win scenario.
D&D is supposed to have unbalanced classed because they're unique skill-sets/abilities bring survivability and adventure to the group. But PvP'ers are a good portion of the cash cows (and a very vocal minority) so their constant bickering of `nerf this`, `buff that`, rinse repeat, spills over into the rest of the game.

Deathbeez- I couldn't agree more. Each class is supposed to be the best at *something*. We're moving into environment where everyone can tank/heal/dps any content with the right gear/mount and insignia/companion set up. We won't really need healers or tanks when mount bonuses and companions will make up for that. Unless something is done to change that- the skills will all reach the same level of mediocrity alone and the game will be entirely gear and item dependent even more than it is right now.

Tell me about it. Classes were implemented to fill most roles in one and got this and that bonuses to provide overly self-healing apparently have a lot to do with quest design and PvP. The pattern of quest design needs an reevaluation. Keeping adding soloing quests can only prevent classes from having class diversity and can hardly help the game to become more challenging and fun. And PvP might also need to be made a parallel world as if it is another game so that it wouldn't continue to affect PvE.

darkrhox

Yep I really hope it will became the cooperate game like anything else in D&D world. Maybe they will read our opinions and start to do something to make this game a good D&D RPG. The main ideas are good. It's ok we can solo and even if I'm not 100% happy with the leveling up and stats, I can say it's ok too. PvP is good because an mmorpg can't live without that but it's neverwinter so it's a D&D game and the main point of these games (not just video games!!!) is the cooperate. So I think it can be better if they make the characters balanced and than everyone can be a part of a team. I don't like when some classes are weaker than other because they can't be a good party of a team and have less chance to became a member than. It's nonfair! How I said before, my favourite is Paladin and Hunter but in this game just Paladin because the Hunter is not the real D&D Hunter. But even if I'm with Paladin and I can be always a member of a group, I can say it's really sad when I see someone who nearly begs to be a member because his character is weaker and noone want him/her in the group because everyone want bigger and bigger chance to finish the dungeons. I can say it's really bad and I think it's because the classes are not balanced. For example I finished NWN with a simple Bard! So it hurts me that there's not a good balance here. Other thing is dungeons. It's ok but I think they can do something with the older dungeons and give them back to us without delete any other dungeons. So I want more dungeons and maybe it can be good if they make somemore lvl 70 dungeons for smaller item lvl players and some dungeons with 3k and some with 4k item lvl because the 2k item lvl dungeons can be finished easily with more than 3k item lvl players, especially if there are more of them. So with high item lvl the dungeons became boring and easy. That's why I think some harder dungeons can be good while we need some "easier" for players who can't spend real money to get the good gears fast or just have not enough time for it. I really want more cooperative thing in this game because that is D&D for me not this really common mmorpg what is Neverwinter Online now.

rapo973

lukejones77 said:

Right now (April 1), there's discussion which is basically about Content Balance, and several ways to address that.
At the end-game, there's virtually no challenge anywhere - no risk, and rewards that build very slowly.
The April Fool's Day post is talking about nerfing things that restore Content Balance - overpowered damage from an offensive perspective, and party invulnerability from a defensive perspective.
We absolutely need Content Balance, and the post explanations of it being far more practical to nerf powers than to boost content difficulty do make sense.
[...]

I agree with you and I would add another element: the intra-class balance.
A SW fury and a SW tempt are two different animals: the former is an anointed dps, the latter is an unknown object despite some players are playing it and trying to make it viable.
Before the nerf, the main meta was immortality and insane dps. Controllers, pure healers, even GF tank to some extent didn't have a relevant role in any party as it's hard to measure their efficiency when a perma-bubble and brutal dps are the only things that are needed.
There are intra-class paths that are dead or played by few players: there nerfs make this aspect even more visible.