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The April fool's joke that is not

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  • telprydaintelprydain Member Posts: 545 Arc User


    The pally has limited threat generation, or maybe it's bugged (I wouldn't be surprised). E.g. I usually run eDemo with Aura of Radiance to generate more threat, and it works just fine most of the times, but whenever there's a high enough DPS or a GF actually tries to steal aggro from me, I end up chasing Demogorgon all over the place, and neither binding oath nor divine call are generating enough aggro to make Demogorgon follow you again, and if you have the 'brilliant' idea of using Vow of enmity then you will have 2/3 encounters for the rest of the phase, and if you lose aggro again, 2 encounters won't be enough to regain it.

    Oath strike forces the target to attack you.
    Vow seemed okay to me - but I haven't used it much outside boss battles.

    I think the dc is going to be irrelevant

    I'm betting that after a respec they'll be the most sought after. Healing, bonus damage and damage mitigation.
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  • manyvengeancemanyvengeance Member Posts: 172 Arc User
    Oath Strike really works? And it's only until the third strike, I have never used it, tbh, but Binding Oath also forces enemies to attack the pally, and everyone knows that ain't true, lol. And I keep saying the same, Pally's aggro is fkd up, and if they were really balancing the class, they should've adressed the existing problems with the encounters, e.g. Relentless avenger targeting allies, Divine touch being underpowered, Binding oath not generating aggro, Smite multi-casting annoying sound, Bane's inconsistency at use.

    This game is getting worse with each new mod, and it ain't because pallys or GoH clerics, back in mod 5 you were actually rewarded for completing dungeons, you could get armor that you could post in AH not some poor bound to Account salvage, you could get your AD by Leadership and then focus on having fun or trying to complete one dungeon after work and before going to sleep, but with mod 6 everything became more of a grind, you have to do 24 repeatable quests in each of the 4 different areas and you won't even get to 70 if you do all of them, everything became bound to Account and bound to Character on Pickup (I have pulled 4 Eyes of Lathander on Dread ring and I can't even sell them) and unbound because they introduced a brand new runic bag, the introduction of injuries and VIP's immunity to them at the same time and don't even get me started with the wards fiasco.

    Now, in the name of 'balance' they start nerfing classes for the game to be 'challenging' again, and they don't even bother in fixing the bugs affecting those classes. Oh! But when a bug benefits the players like Shores, the Dragonflight and now the Lostmauth set, they know how to fix them!
  • sax1993sax1993 Member Posts: 126 Arc User
    The upcoming nerf was definitely needed. I mean come on one Artifact set clearly out shining the rest? Literally having God mode on at all times having no risk of dying and no need to dodge...

    Now, I believe they should've balanced the classes before they did this and fixed the bugs you're going to have useless classes now. And classes that are too strong outdoing the rest, GWF need their damaged tuned (not to mod 5 levels), SW are bugged I mean a 2.5k item level doing more damage than 4k other classes? Buff CWs damage or buff control or something.

    CWs are now crippled they will be dealing subpar damage (below a DPS GF and Cleric), CC is useless this mod, and sure they can buff but no where near as much a GF or DC. OPs aren't very formidable tanks vs a GF who can handle threat a lot better and eat up everyone's damage by 50%.

    CWs will be irrelevant honestly, and OPs will be at end game as well.

    And I agree with you guys about dungeons and skirmishes giving <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> rewards I'm played this game last year where bosses dropped BoE equipment that could sell from anywhere between 50-700k. Man those were the days.
    Main: Sax Cleric (Arbiter) [Xbox and PC]
    Alts:
    Saxy Healz Paladin (Oathkeeper) [Xbox and PC]
    Saxon Ranger (Warden)
    Yuri Wizard (Thaumaturge)



    Member of the guild: Legacy (Xbox) and Strawberry Yakuza (PC)
  • telprydaintelprydain Member Posts: 545 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    I think it’s worth noting that this is not really an OP nerf – I mean, obviously we’re getting nerfed in the face, but just about every class will need to respec at least a little for the new world, and some will be looking at big overhauls.
    Clerics will need to run buff or heal, rather than DPS. GF will need to tank rather than DPS. All DPS classes will need to give consideration to health, defense and deflect, along abilities that will allow them to dodge - since they can't just stand there and rattle off their rotation anymore.
    Casual Gamers
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  • destrowoddestrowod Member Posts: 484 Arc User



    This game is getting worse with each new mod, and it ain't because pallys or GoH clerics, back in mod 5 you were actually rewarded for completing dungeons, you could get armor that you could post in AH not some poor bound to Account salvage, you could get your AD by Leadership and then focus on having fun or trying to complete one dungeon after work and before going to sleep, but with mod 6 everything became more of a grind, everything became bound to Account and bound to Character on Pickup (I have pulled 4 Eyes of Lathander on Dread ring and I can't even sell them) and don't even get me started with the wards fiasco.

    Now, in the name of 'balance' they start nerfing classes for the game to be 'challenging' again, and they don't even bother in fixing the bugs affecting those classes. Oh! But when a bug benefits the players like Shores, the Dragonflight and now the Lostmauth set, they know how to fix them!

    I think you nail it all there lol. I mean sure they probably wanted to stop that boot and loot thing, but they could definately give the players there own drop but unbound, like the horn at the moment. Its the only item that is worth getting so people wanna run lostmauth all the time. But with the nerf, will it be worth as much? Not sure... lol. I wish they would introduce all kinds of cool armors, unique in look, so players could sell them on the AH, if not for the stats at least for the transmutes?

    Right now dungeons are just a grindfest to get your salvage for double ad to refine and thats it... You get a few ADs as well for running them but that ends there. Unless you do lostmauth and hope for a horn. I got 2 so far in over 100 runs, so the drop rate ain't horrible but its not crazy good either. Got one necklace and a few belts(but belts sold for like 20k)

    If dungeons become challenging and take 45min to complete and still just give salvagable, not even sure ill do them anymore...

    Current way the game is designed, dungeons are made to be speed runs.

    And yeah for the "bugs fixes" indeed... when its against us, who cares right? But when its against them(or they wallet i should say) thats like FIX ASAP.


    Bugs we are still waiting on a fix? Horde reclamation resets, throne infiltration, classes as you said and so on. Heard throne should be fixed with mod9... so if its true at least its that but still...

    As for eyes of lathander, i keep running those dread ring quest, never got one... i have best gauntlet and all, your lucky to have got some... altough i don't even know if i would use it or not personally. But yeah this is one item that should be unbounded.

    And finally for the wards... yeah, this one still feel like an open wound for me, i don't think ill ever forgive them for that.

    What bother me the most in this game is everytime i finally get to a point to enjoy something, they change it.

    For exemple :

    1) Just got 60, wanted to run the well of dragon and do tiamat, next mod drop, zone locked again, tiamat became almost "unplayable" (even to this day, ran it once tonight for fun and had a few friends running it in different instance for same results)

    2) Finally get leadership up to a decent level, start making AD, bam... they kill it.

    3) Finally get my character to good IS, up those artifacts and equipement, but now they are nerfing the lostmauth set.. Altough they will offer a trade, i mean i don't even know what to change it for? I followed a pre-made built. Im bad when it comes to stats and all

    4) Finally opening lockboxes more, get some Tradebars, keep them for the futur "lower cost" only to have them change there mind last sec. Altough the ones they gave me for free did covered the tradebars i had at that moment at 200 a piece, its all the ones i won't be able to get AFTER.

    5) The removal of campaign dungeons, some even before i could experience them once... even tough they are actually part of the story...

    Im sure i could find other exemples... I probably have catch up now, and will be able to follow content as it release, but all these times i was thinking "finally ill be able to do that" only to end up being tell nop sorry this won't work anymore.

    Now im sure there is some positive changes to the game, and yes i will recognize this. For exemple the whole concept of "event" in the day time frame i hated that, run skirmishes when the "event" was on to get diamond, it was really a bad concept. I had to tell friends at some point "sorry dude ill come play later on cod, cause the event is coming and i need the diamonds" And there is certainly others, but the negative ones always feel "in your face" more...

    And lately , all the good things they put in the game, like getting rings for salvaging out of Demonic HE to give better chances at making diamonds are often counter balanced by something else like the market skyrocketing... So its easier to make diamonds, cool, everything cost so much more to a point its like the positive change get buried in a counter negative...

    Anyway thats how i feel...
  • destrowoddestrowod Member Posts: 484 Arc User
    To sum it up in a shorter version, i think the main problem comes from the love/hate relationship some of us have with this game and the devs. When a new mod drop, we should simply be happy. New content, that is COOL right!!? Yes it is, not only new expension story/quest/dungeons but cool mount stables system and all, thats awesome at first glance. But then they have to somewhat inject negativity in it to counter balance the positive. We get worried about the changes, we feel the game won't be the same... So instead of following the path of "They give us cool free content, we are happy, we want to thank them by investing some resonable money in the game" (that is for a normal free to play guy like me) But instead of that... take underdark for exemple. Content itself not bad at all, not stellar either, but decent enough for adding some hours of fun in the game. But then i cursed so much over trying to get that throne infiltration achievement because its poorly glitched, combine with the wards scandal, at that point i didn't felt like giving them a dime, and actually encouraged a boycott, said to people do not give them any money til they give us back the wards, and fix throne.

    Now with new mod, we still don't have the wards back(guess our wallets didn't speak loud enough) and on top of that all sorts of nerfs/changes are coming that make us worried. So instead of getting joyfull for new content, we are worried of the upcoming changes. Thats NOT cool !!! The problem is there.

    I love Neverwinter, i truly do, i have not put over 55 days of playtime in this game for nothing. I never got invested in a game politics/developements as much as this one beside maybe gears of war, my favourite franchise in term of online gaming. But when i feel the devs keep doing what they do, it tarnish my love for it... Its like if they would give me 2 candies. One is very good, the other i really don't like it. But to get to the good one, i need to eat the bad one first.

    Well in the end that wasn't so much of a "short version", sorry guys i am just not able to do very short post... its not in my nature lol.
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    I agree with a lot of what you've said. I think a lot of the problem is they seem unable to take a holistic view when they introduce, well, pretty much anything.

    E.g:
    introduce the ubertank - Paladin - & give it the ability to offer almost total damage immunity for an entire party - without regard for what it'd do to the Guardian Fighter class. Then kill the new class by virtually removing that ability a couple of months later.

    Nerf earning & trading ability on the premise of 'AD = Game Time' but limit all AD from runs to just x2, regardless of your Game Time.

    Give CC encounters to nearly all classes then increase npc CC Resist (to 100% on bosses) which almost nullifies the Control Wizard class.

    Recognise that the GWF is underpowered (due to a previous nerf) & counter this by making it by far the most powerful class in the game - meaning parties only want GWF & SW for dps.

    The lack of ability to consider the impact that a single change can have across all classes & how they form as groups to tackle end game content is a serious flaw in their ability to deliver a rewarding experience.

    If players haven't rolled the current favorite class already, they spend the next 6 months being unwelcome in parties & if they create one, they spend several months getting it geared only to be nerfed on the next update, making a new class the new 'uber' & totally invalidating a players investment. E.g. how many 2.8k+ Oathbound Paladins do you see that have the word "bubble" in their character name? loads. I.e. they were created around that skill set, bought/earned their way to a good IL and have it taken away a little while later.

    Don't get me wrong, this isn't class envy as I play 6 classes. This is frustration at seeing investments nullified every few months.*

    Edit: *And the ability to play whichever class I feel like and it having a place and purpose in the game.
    Please Do Not Feed The Trolls

    Xael De Armadeon: DC
    Xane De Armadeon: CW
    Zen De Armadeon: OP
    Zohar De Armadeon: TR
    Chrion De Armadeon: SW
    Gosti Big Belly: GWF
    Barney McRustbucket: GF
    Lt. Thackeray: HR
    Lucius De Armadeon: BD


    Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    yup, it's baffling. It comes across like they have no experience whatsoever with game building.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User

    @manyvengeance I'm with you. I think the pally is going to not be a tank so much as a tankish healer.. I think the dc is going to be irrelevant but will still be required for dungeons that arent premade, so you'll end up with people STILL quitting dungeons because no pally.

    no balance just broken.

    @thefiresidecat I come from the perspective of someone at pretty much endgame, playing with optimized groups on PC. DC will definitely still have a place, both in premades and in pug groups and here is a reason why:

    1) In pug groups, an AC DC can spam AA and keep everyone alive. AA is LITERALLY like bubble in that it makes you immune to everything when spammed. Post elol set nerf (since I play on PC, haste+elol set has been nerfed) I was able to duo every single T2 with a dc, both of us wearing mod 5 sets with 40k HP, because of the ability of the DC to make the party immune to everything. The only fight that was a little challenging was the last fight in etos, because the dots from spiders would consume the AA spheres slightly faster than the rate at which the DC puts them up. Anointed Army is the new Divine Protector.

    2) In premades, a buffer DC drastically increases your clear speed, trivializing all content.

    As for immunity, nobody needs it, the game is really easy and rather than complaining about the lack of immunity, you should adapt to the change and learn to dodge red.
  • cesar#6784 cesar Member Posts: 325 Arc User


    As for immunity, nobody needs it, the game is really easy and rather than complaining about the lack of immunity, you should adapt to the change and learn to dodge red.

    Learn to dodge red... Ha! I agree on the fact that many people do not dodge. However, I constantly keep an eye on AoEs, timing them and all, to dodge when appropriate. My toon, however, runs out of stamina rather quickly, and its regeneration sucks, so after a bit it gets pretty hard to suddenly dodge.

    Worst thing is sometimes it doesn't even dodge in time simply because the game does not respond promptly to the controller's input. And there are other times when I sucessfully dodge and BAM! Dead cause my toon got shifted back a bit against my input. And I'm like, WT...?????
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User
    I see this dodge thing mentioned all the time - people will of course get used to dodging again as they will have no choice, it's just at the moment it's completely unnecessary.

    Stacking stamina is always a good thing - it helps a lot in solo play if you don't have a tanky build too.
    Please Do Not Feed The Trolls

    Xael De Armadeon: DC
    Xane De Armadeon: CW
    Zen De Armadeon: OP
    Zohar De Armadeon: TR
    Chrion De Armadeon: SW
    Gosti Big Belly: GWF
    Barney McRustbucket: GF
    Lt. Thackeray: HR
    Lucius De Armadeon: BD


    Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    edited April 2016

    @manyvengeance I'm with you. I think the pally is going to not be a tank so much as a tankish healer.. I think the dc is going to be irrelevant but will still be required for dungeons that arent premade, so you'll end up with people STILL quitting dungeons because no pally.

    no balance just broken.

    @thefiresidecat I come from the perspective of someone at pretty much endgame, playing with optimized groups on PC. DC will definitely still have a place, both in premades and in pug groups and here is a reason why:

    1) In pug groups, an AC DC can spam AA and keep everyone alive. AA is LITERALLY like bubble in that it makes you immune to everything when spammed. Post elol set nerf (since I play on PC, haste+elol set has been nerfed) I was able to duo every single T2 with a dc, both of us wearing mod 5 sets with 40k HP, because of the ability of the DC to make the party immune to everything. The only fight that was a little challenging was the last fight in etos, because the dots from spiders would consume the AA spheres slightly faster than the rate at which the DC puts them up. Anointed Army is the new Divine Protector.

    2) In premades, a buffer DC drastically increases your clear speed, trivializing all content.

    As for immunity, nobody needs it, the game is really easy and rather than complaining about the lack of immunity, you should adapt to the change and learn to dodge red.

    hearing the state of the game now after the nerfs on pc is helpful. what builds are the new hotness for both dc and OP. (both of mine will need to be respecced to what people now want)


    but just saying dodge the red is disingenuous. derp. but really not talking about me. and I'm not sure why you think I'm talking about me. I've been pretty clear in all of this that I'm worried about the huge part of the xbox community that is not in a high end guild and is not geared up yet.

    none of my concerns have been based on me or others like me. I'm also a end player and now I'm in a end game guild. but I recently came from a guild of not end game players. xbox at least, has a majority of players who are far from geared well. (the vocal ones on here are all pretty much end game players but a lot of us are advocates for the newer players or players comfortable not gearing up past 2500 or 2600 IL) because we don't want the game to die

    they are the ones you find in pugs. your average PUG for elol will have 1 or 2 1600 or 1700 il players.. a 2300-2500 and maybe one 2700+ player. if you're trying to get a epic game odds are your pug is going to be consisting of 2000-2300 players. (and in order to find this game of terribly undergeared players you've had to wait in a queue for about half an hour to an hour)

    you used to be able to keep the party alive or if not keep the party alive sometimes solo or partially solo it to get them thru it.. I never said anything about immunity. 95% percent of the time the bubbles in pugs aren't perma. my pally isn't perma, it's near to perma but definitely not perma. (it's an alt) these people STRUGGLE.. they sometimes seriously seriously struggle. i used to pug for fun. some times would be a speed run other times I'd just help the inexperienced make it thru the dungeon to actually get gear they needed. without a bubble of any kind and without the haste is going to seriously hurt these undergeared people trying to gear up.

    although the AA you speak of might help that. I don't know i haven't seen it yet.

    I used to pug now and again, the grab bag aspect. (got an hour to kill lets see what we end up with ) and that warm glow knowing i helped someone achieve something that will actually be really useful. these changes pretty much assure that people like me will just start doing premade guild runs only...


    I get very very tired of the elite talking for the elite. elites are NOT the what keep this game alive. it's new players who stay on. This games needs them. if the game becomes too hard for people then booom game over. they are going to quit and move on and this game already seems to have population problems. Let them eat cake has been proven time and time again NOT to work and to be terribly short sighted.


    the dungeons are going to be the playground of the elite only and people trying to gear up are going to have demon grinding only. and if you can't speedrun them still (I don't know if you can or not as we aren't there yet) I doubt anyone is going to bother with them at all really. it's not like they are fun to do for fun sake. they are basically only there for salvage other than elol and a couple others that are good for trying to get the rare arti drop. For me the fun was trying to get seriously undergeared people thru one. the bubble helped.. but did not make them immortal. LOL.
  • buckysashibabuckysashiba Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    I play a pally and I can say this - not everyone has 4 power points in it. So you are not talking 20 seconds down to 6. You are talking 15 seconds down to 5 with 3 power points slotted. Simply not enough to get through what you guys are calling the "simple" epic dungeons. You know the ones only requiring item level 1600 - ELOL, Epic Shoes , Malabog, Vallindra... Hard to get through anyway with a fairly decent team of new 70's. Let alone try to fight the blue or black stronghold dragon so forget that "kill 4 dragon" achievement- it ain't gonna happen with a 5-6 second bubble.
  • vaultingfrog#2497 vaultingfrog Member Posts: 185 Arc User



    they are the ones you find in pugs. your average PUG for elol will have 1 or 2 1600 or 1700 il players.. a 2300-2500 and maybe one 2700+ player. if you're trying to get a epic game odds are your pug is going to be consisting of 2000-2300 players. (and in order to find this game of terribly undergeared players you've had to wait in a queue for about half an hour to an hour)

    you used to be able to keep the party alive or if not keep the party alive sometimes solo or partially solo it to get them thru it.. I never said anything about immunity. 95% percent of the time the bubbles in pugs aren't perma. my pally isn't perma, it's near to perma but definitely not perma. (it's an alt) these people STRUGGLE.. they sometimes seriously seriously struggle. i used to pug for fun. some times would be a speed run other times I'd just help the inexperienced make it thru the dungeon to actually get gear they needed. without a bubble of any kind and without the haste is going to seriously hurt these undergeared people trying to gear up.

    the dungeons are going to be the playground of the elite only and people trying to gear up are going to have demon grinding only. and if you can't speedrun them still (I don't know if you can or not as we aren't there yet) I doubt anyone is going to bother with them at all really. it's not like they are fun to do for fun sake. they are basically only there for salvage other than elol and a couple others that are good for trying to get the rare arti drop. For me the fun was trying to get seriously undergeared people thru one. the bubble helped.. but did not make them immortal. LOL.

    Speaking as one of those under geared and non perma bubble pallies, I thank you for running my pathetic HAMSTER through some of those things. Not that I have actually met you in game, at least I dont think I have.

    I just hit 2500 IL last double refinement and I can tell you that once they take away my bubble (which I dont care if it is perma or not) my pally is going to be toast for groups. I am already nearly a lepper simply because of my IL and being told I am not strong enough to be in a group. I have had whole groups quit on me for epics and demo simply because I am a lower IL.

    Not only that but I am my guilds saving grace. With out me on guild runs most fall flat because we dont have the gear to bull our way through things. How do we get that gear though? OH we have to do epics and that sort of stuff... which we cant do because our IL isnt good enough apparently for groups.

    End game is all well and good but for the newer players any little bit helps and they are taking the help away from what I have read in the update notes.

    Should the bubble be perma and basically turn on god mode for everybody? Not in my opinion, but that doesnt mean you have to nerf it so far into the ground it cant even push up daisies because its dead.

  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    I love all the folks who claim the dungeons are too easy anyway and we should all just dodge and what is everyone complaining about. I bet they never run pugs. oh no we run only with our guild and it's a speed run every time.. so boring...

    my suggestion to those who find it "too easy" is to pug it. and then don't kick ANYONE.. Just play it. see how easy it is then. maybe it will bring back some of the fun for you. LOL.
  • telprydaintelprydain Member Posts: 545 Arc User
    Reading feedback from PC players have been good... and it very much seems that some of the panic has been overstated.

    We did some guild runs without bubble over the weekend to see how it would go, and it went way better than expected. Ploughed through every T1 one we tried and went through eToS fine (with a wipe or two).
    That's without a single respec, no practice, players who are new (so had never done epic without a bubble before) and the guild was Casual Gamers... so that's a really mixed group with some folk > 2000 Item level for (Sot and LoL) and no one higher than 2700.

    I have no doubt at all that once people have used the free respec, and have some idea of what dungeons now require, that eToS and the T1s will be no issue.
    Casual Gamers
    Join us brothers and sisters and distant relations and confused onlookers.
    Join us in the shadows where we stand mostly vigilant... although slightly distracted by our inventories.
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  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    It is possible to run an effective OP tank without bubble. Of course, it's not as effective as a perma-bubble build but for lower IL groups the pally should focus on damage reduction & aggro pulling. Until now it's been all about buffing group DPS (Vengence & Courage + Binding Oath).

    I'm thinking of getting a guild group together to experiment with no bubble, but using Auras of Protection & Truth to reduce incoming damage & using Vow of Enmity on bosses to keep aggro (everyone who hits target builds threat for the pally) - this'll also work to some degree in mob fights if you use it on one of their tanks.

    Personally I would like the devs to add increasing threat to the Shielding Strike at-will, as this would be a nice touch.

    @thefiresidecat I can confirm AA is very effective - my haste is Righteous & uses it, not only does it give serious dmg mitigation for a number of hits, it also gives CC immunity and a power buff to all party members. Combined with Empowered AS, the DC has the ability to grant almost total damage mitigation to the group if they all remember to stand in the circle - lol.

    I used this exact setup when I found myself in a pug etos with 4 DPS. I switched out one of my HoT's for AS & we ploughed all the way through. Of course it helped that most of the DPS'ers were well specced (only one at 2.3k)

    Of course, the DC will also be hit by reduced AP gain so if you go with a buff build plus 3 choices from the top row to add the nerfed haste you *should* be able to almost(?) chain it in most circumstances.

    Edit: using a combination of Divine Fortune (currently has my AP gain at 75%) plus Hastening Light (if the fix reaches us by the time the nerf goes live) you should be able to chain AA effectively.
    Please Do Not Feed The Trolls

    Xael De Armadeon: DC
    Xane De Armadeon: CW
    Zen De Armadeon: OP
    Zohar De Armadeon: TR
    Chrion De Armadeon: SW
    Gosti Big Belly: GWF
    Barney McRustbucket: GF
    Lt. Thackeray: HR
    Lucius De Armadeon: BD


    Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User

    @manyvengeance I'm with you. I think the pally is going to not be a tank so much as a tankish healer.. I think the dc is going to be irrelevant but will still be required for dungeons that arent premade, so you'll end up with people STILL quitting dungeons because no pally.

    no balance just broken.

    @thefiresidecat I come from the perspective of someone at pretty much endgame, playing with optimized groups on PC. DC will definitely still have a place, both in premades and in pug groups and here is a reason why:

    1) In pug groups, an AC DC can spam AA and keep everyone alive. AA is LITERALLY like bubble in that it makes you immune to everything when spammed. Post elol set nerf (since I play on PC, haste+elol set has been nerfed) I was able to duo every single T2 with a dc, both of us wearing mod 5 sets with 40k HP, because of the ability of the DC to make the party immune to everything. The only fight that was a little challenging was the last fight in etos, because the dots from spiders would consume the AA spheres slightly faster than the rate at which the DC puts them up. Anointed Army is the new Divine Protector.

    2) In premades, a buffer DC drastically increases your clear speed, trivializing all content.

    As for immunity, nobody needs it, the game is really easy and rather than complaining about the lack of immunity, you should adapt to the change and learn to dodge red.

    hearing the state of the game now after the nerfs on pc is helpful. what builds are the new hotness for both dc and OP. (both of mine will need to be respecced to what people now want)


    but just saying dodge the red is disingenuous. derp. but really not talking about me. and I'm not sure why you think I'm talking about me. I've been pretty clear in all of this that I'm worried about the huge part of the xbox community that is not in a high end guild and is not geared up yet.

    none of my concerns have been based on me or others like me. I'm also a end player and now I'm in a end game guild. but I recently came from a guild of not end game players. xbox at least, has a majority of players who are far from geared well. (the vocal ones on here are all pretty much end game players but a lot of us are advocates for the newer players or players comfortable not gearing up past 2500 or 2600 IL) because we don't want the game to die

    they are the ones you find in pugs. your average PUG for elol will have 1 or 2 1600 or 1700 il players.. a 2300-2500 and maybe one 2700+ player. if you're trying to get a epic game odds are your pug is going to be consisting of 2000-2300 players. (and in order to find this game of terribly undergeared players you've had to wait in a queue for about half an hour to an hour)

    you used to be able to keep the party alive or if not keep the party alive sometimes solo or partially solo it to get them thru it.. I never said anything about immunity. 95% percent of the time the bubbles in pugs aren't perma. my pally isn't perma, it's near to perma but definitely not perma. (it's an alt) these people STRUGGLE.. they sometimes seriously seriously struggle. i used to pug for fun. some times would be a speed run other times I'd just help the inexperienced make it thru the dungeon to actually get gear they needed. without a bubble of any kind and without the haste is going to seriously hurt these undergeared people trying to gear up.

    although the AA you speak of might help that. I don't know i haven't seen it yet.

    I used to pug now and again, the grab bag aspect. (got an hour to kill lets see what we end up with ) and that warm glow knowing i helped someone achieve something that will actually be really useful. these changes pretty much assure that people like me will just start doing premade guild runs only...


    I get very very tired of the elite talking for the elite. elites are NOT the what keep this game alive. it's new players who stay on. This games needs them. if the game becomes too hard for people then booom game over. they are going to quit and move on and this game already seems to have population problems. Let them eat cake has been proven time and time again NOT to work and to be terribly short sighted.


    the dungeons are going to be the playground of the elite only and people trying to gear up are going to have demon grinding only. and if you can't speedrun them still (I don't know if you can or not as we aren't there yet) I doubt anyone is going to bother with them at all really. it's not like they are fun to do for fun sake. they are basically only there for salvage other than elol and a couple others that are good for trying to get the rare arti drop. For me the fun was trying to get seriously undergeared people thru one. the bubble helped.. but did not make them immortal. LOL.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLnM-7hN9-8&amp;feature=youtu.be

    That was with the arp bug. It isn't gear that matters, but having a good group of players who know what they doing. Remember, the minimum ilvl requirement is exactly that, a minimum, which is by no means the recommended ilvl and all it takes to finish any of the t2 dungeons is for 1 good player to queue into them, not 4 or 5. If a decent DC queues into them, they immune, if my CW queues into a pug group, I can solo the dungeon. It is the same story for every class, the only time you need a group of 4 or 5 good players, is either when speed running, or when doing the dungeon at the absolute minimum ilvl requirement.
  • cesar#6784 cesar Member Posts: 325 Arc User
    edited April 2016


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLnM-7hN9-8&amp;feature=youtu.be

    That was with the arp bug. It isn't gear that matters, but having a good group of players who know what they doing. Remember, the minimum ilvl requirement is exactly that, a minimum, which is by no means the recommended ilvl and all it takes to finish any of the t2 dungeons is for 1 good player to queue into them, not 4 or 5. If a decent DC queues into them, they immune, if my CW queues into a pug group, I can solo the dungeon. It is the same story for every class, the only time you need a group of 4 or 5 good players, is either when speed running, or when doing the dungeon at the absolute minimum ilvl requirement.

    You don't play on Xbox, right? This video is from PC, and I wish my toon responded to controller input the way it does on PC; that would make a HUGE difference! And it's been getting worse recently; for example, having to press X, Y, or B several times for an encounter to trigger (and yes, the encounter is available).

    I got this mount that gives me 4000 movement, which worked for like a week (you could notice the difference when moving) and now the toon's back to sluggish mode.

    It's ridiculous.
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User
    Controls in the PC format on all games are superior imo - using a keyboard & mouse allows you true control separation & you're using all fingers, not just thumbs!
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  • cesar#6784 cesar Member Posts: 325 Arc User
    Well, I'm talking about the time it takes from pressing a button until the game actually performs the corresponding action. I don't have that issue with any game on Xbox but this one.

    And not only that. For instance, my main is a GWF, and first thing I usually do when entering combat is Daring Shout. Well, sometimes you get a red right after starting it, so easy! you just move or run sideways to avoid it. Same thing with WMS: one, two hits and then you suddenly need to avoid red. No big deal... Problem is getting the next action (moving) to register quickly. Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't.

    The other thing, at least in my case, is my toon becoming slower when in combat. I noted this is a really crappy problem in the game itself after having increased the movement stat substantially, noticing a good improvement for about a week, and then going back to the same old problem.

    Really, Cryptic should dedicate a couple of devs and testers to really improving the code that deals with the controller. I won't take forever, so any reason to justify not doing this is just a really lame excuse.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    armadeonx said:

    Controls in the PC format on all games are superior imo - using a keyboard & mouse allows you true control separation & you're using all fingers, not just thumbs!

    I am not going to make the pc/xbox argument, because it always ends with, "come play on xbox and prove me wrong" and honestly, I am not going to buy a seperate platform, just to do that. The important line in what I said is the 1 in bold, minimum vs recommended. Whether or not there is a group that can do it with the minimum ilvl, idk, but it is doable on pc, which was where the game is designed then copied from for you and balance is done around the pc controls, not the xbox ones. Is this fair? Probably not, but I am not the person to hate on for that, you will have to hate on someone else.
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User
    Up til recently I've always played on PC - I switched mostly out of necessity (long story). I've personally found that regardless of the reaction speed of the controls, you just have have more finesse with a keyboard & mouse - targeting,moving, simultaneous commands etc are all so much easier.

    The XBox (and all consoles) use the same keys for multiple commands out of necessity. I like the simplicity of consoles but the interface has definite limitations. E.g. how many times I've gone to make a jump when a player moves in front of me & I bring up their menu instead of jumping! No I don't want to votekick or trade with them! That's down to using the same buttons.
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  • cesar#6784 cesar Member Posts: 325 Arc User


    ... then copied from for you and balance is done around the pc controls, not the xbox ones.

    Makes no sense at all. If you port X software from one platform to another, you HAVE to balance around that platform to make it work (whether this balance is good or not, that's another story).
  • This content has been removed.
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User
    Yeah you're talking about pre-70 pvp (mind you post 70 is worse lol). T2's are a different reality altogether.
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  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLnM-7hN9-8&amp;feature=youtu.be

    That was with the arp bug. It isn't gear that matters, but having a good group of players who know what they doing. Remember, the minimum ilvl requirement is exactly that, a minimum, which is by no means the recommended ilvl and all it takes to finish any of the t2 dungeons is for 1 good player to queue into them, not 4 or 5. If a decent DC queues into them, they immune, if my CW queues into a pug group, I can solo the dungeon. It is the same story for every class, the only time you need a group of 4 or 5 good players, is either when speed running, or when doing the dungeon at the absolute minimum ilvl requirement.

    You don't play on Xbox, right? This video is from PC, and I wish my toon responded to controller input the way it does on PC; that would make a HUGE difference! And it's been getting worse recently; for example, having to press X, Y, or B several times for an encounter to trigger (and yes, the encounter is available).

    I got this mount that gives me 4000 movement, which worked for like a week (you could notice the difference when moving) and now the toon's back to sluggish mode.

    It's ridiculous.
    so that's not just me. it seems like I press each button like four or five times to get my encounter to trigger sometimes. when I go to play other games I end up doing all kinds of weird spazzy stuff because it's so habitual now.

  • vaultingfrog#2497 vaultingfrog Member Posts: 185 Arc User
    So I am not sure how this is becoming something about Xbox vs PC.... Doesn't need to happen here really.

    Anywho, I know I am going to have to roll back to a healadin (which isn't too bad honestly) after this update if I really want to stay useful. My DPS will suffer for it but that's the way it is.

    I just wish they didn't have to destroy the only mechanic the class had that was unique and really what it was built around. A tank that doesn't actually tank is kind of pointless.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User

    So I am not sure how this is becoming something about Xbox vs PC.... Doesn't need to happen here really.

    Anywho, I know I am going to have to roll back to a healadin (which isn't too bad honestly) after this update if I really want to stay useful. My DPS will suffer for it but that's the way it is.

    I just wish they didn't have to destroy the only mechanic the class had that was unique and really what it was built around. A tank that doesn't actually tank is kind of pointless.

    Agreed about the pc vs xbox thing, which is why I said earlier:

    armadeonx said:

    Controls in the PC format on all games are superior imo - using a keyboard & mouse allows you true control separation & you're using all fingers, not just thumbs!

    I am not going to make the pc/xbox argument, because it always ends with, "come play on xbox and prove me wrong" and honestly, I am not going to buy a seperate platform, just to do that. The important line in what I said is the 1 in bold, minimum vs recommended. Whether or not there is a group that can do it with the minimum ilvl, idk, but it is doable on pc, which was where the game is designed then copied from for you and balance is done around the pc controls, not the xbox ones. Is this fair? Probably not, but I am not the person to hate on for that, you will have to hate on someone else.
    However, I disagree about the bubble nerf. The point at which tanking went from being about holding aggro to being about making your party immune, is the point where its no longer skillful tanking and just pure cheese.

  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    I agree with that & so should anyone who's got any sense. The way I'd summarise the issue though is by asking: 'without the bubble, how does a Pally tank compare to a GF tank'?

    The general opinion is that the GF is significantly better but I've yet to see a dispassionate & thorough comparison.

    I suspect people have become quite myopic about the OP due to the bubble - people only think bubble, including many pallys themselves.
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