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missing CW balance?
hastati96
Member Posts: 498 Arc User
Hey there! First of all I really like some changes that will be done for class balance but I also have to say that it seems that CWs will need an adjustement too.
CWs and GWFs are the two classes that benefit the most from the elol set. The gwfs will lose about 30% of their damage which is okay in my opinion because they hit too hard by far. I guess it will bring them go a fair level.
Hr, Tr and Sw dont benefit that much from the elol set so I dont think it will really be a nerf for them.
I think the real problem will be the CWs. We are already quite "bad" damage dealers (hr, tr, sw and gwf can easily outdps us) and we will lose also 30% of our damage. The class doesnt have the best buffs and debuffs too so I guess we will get problems with dungeons and the group play. On the one hand why should someone take a CW who doesnt do more damage than a Tr, Hr, Sw or Gwf? And on the other hand why should someone take a CW who isnt able to buff/debuff more than a Dc or Gf?
I am playing a BIS CW and I have already problems to challenge any other class in damage. CC is not really needed and our buffs are not that great. I just think we should also have something that makes our class special and that is needed. If we wont get an adjustment too We will really get a problem.
I dont want to offend anyone with this. I just think that the changes will create an unbalance in this way furthermore I would like to hear some more opinions about this.
greetings
CWs and GWFs are the two classes that benefit the most from the elol set. The gwfs will lose about 30% of their damage which is okay in my opinion because they hit too hard by far. I guess it will bring them go a fair level.
Hr, Tr and Sw dont benefit that much from the elol set so I dont think it will really be a nerf for them.
I think the real problem will be the CWs. We are already quite "bad" damage dealers (hr, tr, sw and gwf can easily outdps us) and we will lose also 30% of our damage. The class doesnt have the best buffs and debuffs too so I guess we will get problems with dungeons and the group play. On the one hand why should someone take a CW who doesnt do more damage than a Tr, Hr, Sw or Gwf? And on the other hand why should someone take a CW who isnt able to buff/debuff more than a Dc or Gf?
I am playing a BIS CW and I have already problems to challenge any other class in damage. CC is not really needed and our buffs are not that great. I just think we should also have something that makes our class special and that is needed. If we wont get an adjustment too We will really get a problem.
I dont want to offend anyone with this. I just think that the changes will create an unbalance in this way furthermore I would like to hear some more opinions about this.
greetings
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even fixing some of our major class bugs would help balance us
@devs Please contact me for testing and balance issues happy to help
MoF Rene CW can do great job on buff/debuff. It is one of the best support path, especially for a striker class. There is no reason to complain that. I do think cw's base damage is a bit low, but I don't use elol set on my cw and I have no difficulty to do any pve content. Before you claim cw is a underdog, I would like to see more numbers.
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Lostmauth procs can't crit. CW just got boned hard.
If lostmauth doesn't crit it's a big damage hit to SW since the current meta build relies on the crits to generate spark. They even nerfed harrowstorm so it doesn't proc lol damage and harrowstorm isn't a great ability already.
CW also greatly benefits from the owlbear cub, which is providing a large percentage of CW damage even when having high crit chance. The overall change to paladin means control will be more important, and the class has some of the best control.
Between the SS nerf and this, that puts us around 70-80% behind the DPS we had on mod 5, which is pretty much half the DPS of We already knew the ACTs from before lol. A BiS CW (4k) was getting out-DPSed by some 2.8k-3k SWs and GWFs. The gap has only widened now. Yes, the other classes do less DPS now, but only marginally. This barely affects the already broken SW burst damage and was only a 20-40% nerf for GWFs. They're still VERY viable.
They would literally have to make Storm Spell crit again and double the damage of Smolder/Rimfire to balance CWs out now. And everyone would just HAMSTER about it. Or if they MUST make us control-heavy again, they'd have to make freeze last twice as long and be irresistible, which everyone would also HAMSTER about.
CW needs some adjustments all the new mounts and companions benefit the class a lot - just check the CW forums about the OwlBear Cub and high crit CW. The fact that people barely have time to cast an at will tells me that Spell twisting should be cut in half at least (getting the equivalent of 8000 recovery is a bit much) - CW encounters are very short for the most part, but spell twisting makes it ridiculous.
I've seen BIS CW beat BIS GWF in CN by double. Several CW have even soloed the new CN, and all CW groups have also run it successfully.
It's propaganda that CW damage is low.
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
The reality is that 4k HR, TR, SW and GWF can easily outdps a 4k CW in every dungeon. This is what happened to me quite often. CW is currently not the best class for PvE and the -30% dmg nerf with the lol set will break our neck.
The remaining CW who hasn't left his class after mod4 nerfs and mod6 storm spell nerf will leave for SW/GWF or something else for sure now if CW doesn't got some buff.
Or yes CW can be a buffer/support class but sorry I just use my DC/GF for that if I want to buff/support the party.
All of that aside, GWFs and CWs both benefit equally from the elol set in terms of %of their damage, the difference is, CWs current;y hit as hard as any other support class does assuming they are built for damage rather than support. What is the big difference?
DC: Can deal damage AND still debuff to some extent.
GF: Can deal damage AND still use into the fray
CW: Can deal damage, OR can debuff.
For CW, choosing to deal damage involves making a sacrifice, you always sacrifice something as CW in order to excel at something else. That is the key difference between CW and other support classes. Now, there is going to be a situation where CW doesn't hit as hard as the other support classes whilst they are specced purely for dps, which essentially pigeonholes the class into a pure support class. After such a change, if you were comparing all classes pure dps builds to each other than the only class doing less dps than a CW is an OP.
How much do the different classes benefit from the set?
GWF/CW 30%+
TR: 17-22%
HR/DC/SW/OP/GG: Less than 10%.
Here is the question you have to ask yourselves, which classes are going to suffer the most from such a nerf? The CW and GWF will. At the moment, the CW is a balanced class, likely THE MOST BALANCED CLASS in the game. What happens when you take a balanced class and you nerf its performance significantly? its no longer balanced, its underpowered.
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At first you might say, "A 9% loss in dps doesn't seem so bad" but the thing is, it isn't a 9% dps loss, because there aren't any buffs and the only way to properly demonstrate how much of a dps loss it is would be in a party against some target with infinite life and unfortunately there is no dummy that currently exists in the game that allows you to replicate those circumstances.
The best explanation I can give is this, in a buff party on live, infantile compensation is close to 1% of my dps because it doesn't benefit from buffs, but solo, its a large portion of my dps. The elol set in a group will drop to less than 1% of my dps, where before it was ~28% (with higher crit when I have companions summoned etc). Those buffs that previously made it so strong, are now the reason why it is worthless and why whilst you cannot see much of a difference on dummies, it will be noticeable in dungeons.
Being effected by buffs will bring the lostmauth/infantile down, but remember GWFs and other classes will also get reduction in damage across the board.
We have to look at all classes results and compare them before balances can be implemented.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
Ah yes, my mistake.
But still, theres no need for people to act hysterical due to these changes, when you need to compare the outcome from other classes too. That is the whole point in this, to bring EVERY class down so content isn't so trivial.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Put it this way. A BiS GWF could out-DPS a BiS CW by 30-50% BEFORE the Lostmauth set nerf. Now after the nerf, GWFs are still a bit stronger than CWs before the nerf, and CWs went down 30-50% from that. That's not fair. That's not balance. GWFs are now balanced and CWs went from being sort of balanced to being the most under-powered DPS class in the game. GFs and DCs can now out-DPS us if built correctly. And if you don't see the problem with that, you're beyond delusional.
I didn't mention SWs, because the majority of them rely on broken mechanics and will likely be fixed soon, so I think that will balance them out.
Will do in about a week :-)
Adjustments will need to be made to the CW, I'm sure of it. And I'm confident they'll be addressed.
These first round of changes are to get the game back to a baseline. Things can then more accurately be addressed from there. And when that happens, we'll be ready.
The good news for the CW community is that we have quite a few intelligent, articulate and passionate players in our midst. We have plenty of people who can test changes and offer up intelligent, meaningful feedback to the developers, and I'm confident we'll end up in a good place once the dust settles.
Most of the CW community is fairly aligned with what we feel our class should do, and are generally reasonable in accepting what we can't. No one here cares that much for PvP, which is a blessing. I guarantee you when class threads start, every other class will be bogged down with stupid epeen arguments about PvP, and nothing will get done. We also typically have fewer trolls who inhabit the wizard tower, and it's rare to see CW's resorting to silly ad hominem attacks on each other, instead of discussing the issues at hand. I think we as a group can be counted on to calmly address the changes and provide feedback, getting us back to where we need to be.
If people remember the last time they did major balance changes, people were again crying the death of the CW. Myself and a few other posters here followed the changes closing, provided feedback and the CW left being in an extremely competitive state. And everyone else here has been able to enjoy the fruits of those labors for a few updates now.
So again, let's just take each situation as it comes, and respond intelligently to it.
What we know is going to happen...the DPS component coming from Lostmauth's for a CW was 20-40% (assuming assumptions, right?). It's now likely coming in at about 3-5%, assuming you still use that set.
That being said, the CW was in a good, middle of the road DPS spot, while still having some CC and buffing/debuffing utility, which I think was good. Could always be better, but it was good. With the Lostmauth fix, we're going to be impacted pretty hard.
I know @amenar has a lot of his plate with the changes, but I sincerely hope at some point he'll open up a dialog with the CW community to discuss exactly what role he envisions CWs filling in the new meta of Neverwinter, and be open to feedback on the community as to how best achieve that position.
It's a discussion I'm very much looking forward to having.
Here is my concern atm, as I have stated in previous other posts, CW's weren't even a discussion point about this nerf. If it goes through and CW aren't even on the drawing board it will take months for us to get some acknowledgement that maybe our secondary ability (Striker) is not quite up to par. As it stands right now no one wants or needs a Primary controller in there group.
Maybe I and many others are looking at it all wrong but I do not see any builds that recommend any other set that will keep us relevant for dungeon runs and end game content. There quit a few mages claiming that they don't use the lostmauth set and have great dps. But they are very silent about there builds and/or only give us random data that really doesn't explain much. If there is a build out there right now that is doing better with out the lostmauth set lets the CW community hear about. If it keeps us relevant for all content I would love to hear about it and see some concrete data, then this conversation becomes mote. I do alot of spec testing on the test shard (duh), use ACT, and i'm not beyond trying anything out who knows maybe I can figure something out.
The end result of this nerf if were to go through today would be groups looking to make up for the lost dps by adding those that can do more than us (with a lower gear score), i.e. GWF, SW,.... For those that have good guilds they will not necessarily be as affected by it because a good guild try's to incorporate all it's members regardless of play-style. But what about the stragglers or the one's that don't do the guild thing? They will probably look at the other classes and go... hmm I can to more dps with less of an AD sink... yeah maybe CW is not for me anymore. The lostmauth nerf is more less a targeted fix on GWF's because the set makes them DPS beasts. They don't need the set to continue to be DPS beasts, which is there only relevant job atm, off tank who needs one?? I know because I have one that doesn't have lostmauth and has meh gear but his DPS is amazing. But, how does nerf effect the other classes that rely on DPS to keep them competitive and desired in a group setting? Thats what we are starting to find out.
In the state of the game letter it states:
"We planned for the design of the Class Review in one development cycle, the review work as part of another, and the fixes in a third. The complexity of classes, including their efficacy and balance for example, is such that rushing the work in one development cycle wouldn’t work. It certainly hadn’t in the past. So we needed to spend the time to really build a process and plan that we have faith in. Now that we have the right support in place for an improved class review, it is on the top of our list."
So it will take 3 development cycles for any class to get changes done for it. How do the DPS classes feel about the lostmauth nerf now? Maybe the Dev's already have some things planned that overcome these new challenges... We do not know and as far a I know the only real changes are what can be found on the test server. Maybe the lostmauth nerf doesn't hit until 3 development cycles, which again makes this a mote conversation. If the nerf doesn't happen for 3 development cycles, people please get on the test shard and let the Dev's know what works and doesn't.
Is doom and gloom for the CW's and other dps that might use lostmauth? I don't know but I know it doesn't feel good when my DPS takes easily a 19 percent hit and controllers are not needed for end game content. I don't want this to go down like the leadership nerf did...
a.) Dev's: 1-1.5 month were looking at data it appears there is a problem with AD.
Community: Yeah there might be something wrong and I kinda don't like were this is headed. Hey what about all these AD sinks?
b.) Dev's: Data analyzed (bombshell), Hey yeah so the data looks like to much AD so in 3 days leadership will be nerfed.
Community: Yeah I don't like this one bit. Hey what about all these AD sinks?
c.) Dev's: Still analyzing data....
It took over 6 months to get rid of some the crazy AD sinks. Did leadership need to get nerfed? At this point most everyone will agree it did. Was it handled correctly? Umm, I'm not sure. I think it could have been phased out as the AD sinks got removed and the community would not have been so up in arms about the AD nerf. I think to date the AD nerf discussion is still the largest post on this forum.
I just don't want to see a leadership style nerf handled on a class with no real direction, this makes people angry and want to leave the game or do another class. The nerf, if handled correctly will still make people angry and remiss for days gone by, but more willing to adapt to the change and not leave the game and continue to play there favorite class.
This is currently true for the DC class, which is currently in a good place IMO - neither underpowered nor overpowered and with several different, useful builds (although the "haste DC" build just got a lot less useful.
However (and that is the important point here) the CW does not have the same number of viable options. In particular, the "High-crit DPS" build took a big blow, as those CWs had basically been pushed into using the Lostmauth set although it was never meant for them.
So, the changes to the set may be good and necessary, but they limit the CWs options by making one of their most popular builds no longer viable.
Something needs to be done to compensate.
I don't think the solution here is to make the Wizard "just another" striker class that plays like all the others but with different graphics.