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what has changed in mod 8 to make trs

toporoktoporok Member Posts: 27 Arc User
I am regularly getting one shot through Astral shield with 110k health, what has changed ,and what is the magic number I need to survive shocking executioner. To me it feels like mod 5 all over again, just bring back the 5 man Jenner tr team to complete the joke that pvp has become.

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    westsideryderzwestsideryderz Member Posts: 21 Arc User
    Sadly at the moment there is no stopping the perfect/optimum one shot dunk build.

    We know its broken, SE is meant to be a finisher, not a one shot through my fully empowered astral shield + hallowed ground. Ur defense stat doesnt make a difference either. My dude j-prophet can dunk me for 180k lol.
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    toporoktoporok Member Posts: 27 Arc User
    Mod 6 and 7 I never lost more then half health through empowered Astral shield, mod 8 one shot, something had changed
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    s4v10rxs4v10rx Member Posts: 389 Arc User
    executioner feat on the TR tree got a big boost for mod 8.
    Guild: Asylum
    Character:
    7thS1n---Trickster Rouge LV 70(perma-Stun build)
    7ThH3AL3R-- Devoted Cleric LV 70 (Divine Oracle Haste/DPS build)
    7ThM4G3-- Control Wizard
    7ThW4rL0CK-- Scrooge Warlock
    7THW4R--Great Weapon Fighter
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    sundance777sundance777 Member Posts: 1,097 Arc User
    My mid level TR can one shot hit for 140K, but if you have PvP armor on that won't kill you as it would be much less. Do you wear PvP armor?
    TR - Sun: 16000 IL
    OP - Sunshine: 16000 IL

    Casual Dailies
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    azuosed89azuosed89 Member Posts: 565 Arc User
    edited February 2016
    HP boon is bad they said. Hp boon is a poor choice of DENIAL they said...
    *giggles* :)

    Anyway. SE is broken because it bypasses all DAMAGE resistance and, PC players claim, Tenacity *I don't think this part is accurate*. But the ignore DR is, and it is the problem on this skill. This makes TRs built for dunks to be able to slot full power (maximizing the base damage of SE) and recovery for faster SE refill . So they don't need to worry about armor pen... like everyone else needs... (unfair). Add action point gain from necklace + haste DC + mounts that refill ap and stuff, and there you go. broken. They need to make it stop being armor piercing. It is not fair specially because there are classes that can't dodge this HAMSTER...

    Anyway, TR went from the highest skill cap class to one of the lowest skill cap classes. i remember from mod 1~3 on PC it took a lot of skills to play tr. Now they have so many features (high deflection with high deflection severity, multiple dodges, CCs, and 1 shot dailies) that I barely have respect for TR players nowadays.

    as someone said, this has been around a while. But it took a while to TRs realize the optimum build (they would got it earlier if they had contact with PC friends). Power boon is the way to go with TRs for dunks.
    Gannicus GWF PvP
    DENIAL
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    azuosed89azuosed89 Member Posts: 565 Arc User

    Its not new, as i said before. Azuosed89 is probably on too something. As someone who pretty much plays pvp only when i log on, i started seeing this a few weeks into mod6. It seems its just now catching on to the tr population. Denial made a good choice, i wish my guild had done the same, the hp/power boon got my vote, but i was in the minority seeing as my guild is mostly pve. Even so, i see se hits on me for 160-170k from time to time, but there mostly in the 110-120 range. Even worse are the ones that can do it, while still being mostly perma stealth utilizing rings and being good at there class...but i regress as this is only one thing in the sea of broken things that is neverwinter pvp.

    I got close to 150k hp. I can say that for sure I don't get 1 shot by any TR, unless I am heavily debuffed by his team mates.

    One TR guildie could damage a maximum of 143k SE, which left me hanging. I can heal back full hp in few seconds thanks to the wheels/shores combo, so I have been able to fight most of the TRs. It makes easier using the vision ring so I can fight back even when they are perma stealth.
    I know for sure, the DCs on PC are full hp, like 150k+ HP. it is the only way they make it against TRs too. So I would say that is for every class...

    Defense is important, but I think at the end of the day HP is a much better stats (high hp means more temporary hit points for classes that have this, higher HP means survive dunks, high hp is n ot affected by defense debuffs/terror, high hp also maximize healings from potions/artifacts/shore set, boons/regen. I think at the end of the day, defense is less effective than HP in PvP. Don't forget Armor Pen makes defense less effective too I have 150% so even if you use full pvp gear I am still cutting through 50% of your DR. It is known that 70% DR is the cap, so you can easily get it with getting defensive artifacts (bruer's helm, eye of lathander, seldarine, emblem, sygil of devoted) plus regular boons. I have 8k defense and I use the hp boon and I hit like a truck when I have my offensive stacks up.

    Adding too much more defense will make me less effective as for now I already have 71% DR when I have negation and scars fully stacked.

    My suggestion to anyone for now is to build up HP to survive dunks until they rework SE. Some people say tenacity doesn't work, but I am sure it does. It is good if you can afford at least one rosegold ring in the near future. I will probably be using two for another extra 1k tenacity (that 5% DR and 5% crit resistance ) is basically a 10% debuff on SE.
    Gannicus GWF PvP
    DENIAL
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    azuosed89azuosed89 Member Posts: 565 Arc User
    ah BTW. Feytouch helps versus SE because it affects directly the base damage of the character=). Make sure you do the first hit against a TR whenever you see it just to be protected from Incoming SE.
    Gannicus GWF PvP
    DENIAL
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    buffaloterrorbuffaloterror Member Posts: 5 New User
    The entire PVP system in this game is broken. There is no balance, there is no meta, its all gear based and broken game mechanics. PVP is like the prom night dumpster baby that had downs. Yeah the kid is there yeah, yeah we gave him a chance at life, yeah he kinda functions -but that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> broken and nobody wants to fix it or even help make it better. This is hardly a PVP system, let alone game, thus it is trivial to discuss "builds" go roll TR go spend your 200$ and run around insta-gibbing fools. The game is telling you to do that.
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    ralexinorralexinor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 576 Arc User
    edited March 2016
    azuosed89 said:

    SE is broken because it bypasses all DAMAGE resistance and, PC players claim, Tenacity *I don't think this part is accurate*.

    lmao. How would you know without ACT + proper testing? SE is piercing damage, piercing damage bypasses EVERYTHING - it takes the raw BASE damage before armor + tenacity calculations - and cannot be deflected. Not sure how logs are displayed on xbl, but if they're the same as PC, in your combat logs you should see X deals Y damage to you with Shocking Execution, with the exceptions such as certain damage % reductions such as GF's block mechanic (reduces damage by 80%, not Damage Resistance). If it was being affected by tenacity you'd see X deals DAMAGE (BASE DAMAGE) damage to you with Shocking Execution, and you'd also see the post-mit/tenacity damage is roughly 30-40% of the base damage (assuming SE crit which it should if the TR is not dumb and used it from stealth).

    SE would not hit for 100k+ damage if tenacity was applying, it'd do like 30-40k damage at most because tenacity decreases damage by 60-70% on crit hits.

    Tip: from a former top PC player, quit PvP while you can, don't fall into the trap of "I invested in this game and I don't want that investment to go to waste". They don't know their own game and you will not be getting any improvements for a very long time if at all because your development pattern pretty much follows the PC's exactly (balance changes will not be any different), so unless PC gets amazing improvements (which it won't because the devs don't know how to do it), you won't see any either.
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    azuosed89azuosed89 Member Posts: 565 Arc User
    ralexinor said:

    azuosed89 said:

    SE is broken because it bypasses all DAMAGE resistance and, PC players claim, Tenacity *I don't think this part is accurate*.

    lmao. How would you know without ACT + proper testing? SE is piercing damage, piercing damage bypasses EVERYTHING - it takes the raw BASE damage before armor + tenacity calculations - and cannot be deflected. Not sure how logs are displayed on xbl, but if they're the same as PC, in your combat logs you should see X deals Y damage to you with Shocking Execution, with the exceptions such as certain damage % reductions such as GF's block mechanic (reduces damage by 80%, not Damage Resistance). If it was being affected by tenacity you'd see X deals DAMAGE (BASE DAMAGE) damage to you with Shocking Execution, and you'd also see the post-mit/tenacity damage is roughly 30-40% of the base damage (assuming SE crit which it should if the TR is not dumb and used it from stealth).

    SE would not hit for 100k+ damage if tenacity was applying, it'd do like 30-40k damage at most because tenacity decreases damage by 60-70% on crit hits.

    Tip: from a former top PC player, quit PvP while you can, don't fall into the trap of "I invested in this game and I don't want that investment to go to waste". They don't know their own game and you will not be getting any improvements for a very long time if at all because your development pattern pretty much follows the PC's exactly (balance changes will not be any different), so unless PC gets amazing improvements (which it won't because the devs don't know how to do it), you won't see any either.
    I said the words" I don't think this part is true, regarding tenacity". I used the WORD think as my own opinion, was never an affirmation of absolute truth. I said that because until then I had not tested it myself, and I saw a screenshot from a PC player showing a reduction in SE damage. After research a little bit, I found out that it was barkshield's reducing the SE damage, and it seems that tenacity is really ignored in the equation. Which is beyond broken. Not only TRs have a skill that pierces DR/Deflection (making them be able to not spend points on armor penetration), that same skill also always crit from stealth (making them don't need add critical strike points). that same skill also ignores tenacity.
    Personally, I think no daily should take more than 50 or 60% of a target's life. It would be fun if they fixed SE, and watch all those Super AP gain TRs start to run armor penetration and feytouch.
    Gannicus GWF PvP
    DENIAL
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    ralexinorralexinor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 576 Arc User
    edited March 2016
    azuosed89 said:

    ralexinor said:

    azuosed89 said:

    SE is broken because it bypasses all DAMAGE resistance and, PC players claim, Tenacity *I don't think this part is accurate*.

    lmao. How would you know without ACT + proper testing? SE is piercing damage, piercing damage bypasses EVERYTHING - it takes the raw BASE damage before armor + tenacity calculations - and cannot be deflected. Not sure how logs are displayed on xbl, but if they're the same as PC, in your combat logs you should see X deals Y damage to you with Shocking Execution, with the exceptions such as certain damage % reductions such as GF's block mechanic (reduces damage by 80%, not Damage Resistance). If it was being affected by tenacity you'd see X deals DAMAGE (BASE DAMAGE) damage to you with Shocking Execution, and you'd also see the post-mit/tenacity damage is roughly 30-40% of the base damage (assuming SE crit which it should if the TR is not dumb and used it from stealth).

    SE would not hit for 100k+ damage if tenacity was applying, it'd do like 30-40k damage at most because tenacity decreases damage by 60-70% on crit hits.

    Tip: from a former top PC player, quit PvP while you can, don't fall into the trap of "I invested in this game and I don't want that investment to go to waste". They don't know their own game and you will not be getting any improvements for a very long time if at all because your development pattern pretty much follows the PC's exactly (balance changes will not be any different), so unless PC gets amazing improvements (which it won't because the devs don't know how to do it), you won't see any either.
    I said the words" I don't think this part is true, regarding tenacity". I used the WORD think as my own opinion, was never an affirmation of absolute truth. I said that because until then I had not tested it myself, and I saw a screenshot from a PC player showing a reduction in SE damage. After research a little bit, I found out that it was barkshield's reducing the SE damage, and it seems that tenacity is really ignored in the equation. Which is beyond broken. Not only TRs have a skill that pierces DR/Deflection (making them be able to not spend points on armor penetration), that same skill also always crit from stealth (making them don't need add critical strike points). that same skill also ignores tenacity.
    Personally, I think no daily should take more than 50 or 60% of a target's life. It would be fun if they fixed SE, and watch all those Super AP gain TRs start to run armor penetration and feytouch.
    SE would do bad damage even if they did stack arp if it was affected by tenacity because tenacity would reduce it by probably 60% at least. TRs, outside of SE, do no damage. If they fixed SE they'd need to buff TRs in other ways.
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    azuosed89azuosed89 Member Posts: 565 Arc User
    edited March 2016
    "SE would do bad damage even if they did stack arp if it was affected by tenacity because tenacity would reduce it by probably 60% at least. TRs, outside of SE, do no damage. If they fixed SE they'd need to buff TRs in other ways."

    personally I think not. I think it would still do decent damage. I do agree that TRs are funny attacking unless they use shocking execution. to be honest, I don't even have a lot of trouble fighting TRs... I am a GWF at 150k HP, crazy heals, etc, so I can survive multiple SE until I kill a TR. Now what is broken is bring two of these guys in a premade with two or 3 supports. They have stealth/mobility, and an annoying CC, and when they time two dailies together, it is very vicious. personally I think it is the problem. The problem is that I think they are funny because they don't stack armor pen to just maximize the power build. Maybe they can be pretty decent if they did stack armor pen? not sure though.

    Now I agree, if they did nerfed SE to work as respecting tenacity, they should do a slight damage buff to trs. (As long as there is a rework with smoke bomb to be honest, and other innates advantages of trs such as high deflection severity
    too be honest, I think the problem is tenacity blocking critical damage. I think tenacity should Interfere with the overall damage, not that plus critical damage. It is funny I made many many tests. and my critical hits ARE ALWAYS LOWER than my regular hits on PvP. This why I don't run Lostmauth set on pvp, and I am full STR and CON to have a low crit chance on purpose. It is funny not many ppl caught up to that.
    Gannicus GWF PvP
    DENIAL
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    azuosed89azuosed89 Member Posts: 565 Arc User

    I caught that bit, but its still dependent on crit severity, which we have an enchant coming mod 9, as long as it is fixed to work right, 75 percent crit sev plus a -15 percent or so dmg resistance on encounter.

    I was running half orc like 3 days ago. I put all critival severy bonuses on my GWF, and I got about 102% critical severity without using vorpal. My crits were still lower than my regular damage in PvP... so I switched back instantly, as there is no point running vorpal on gwf for pvp.
    Yeah I saw that enchantment. Might be interesting for TRs if they messed with SE, might be good for HRs too, they use a lot of encounters.
    Gannicus GWF PvP
    DENIAL
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    yourenext2dieyourenext2die Member Posts: 614 Arc User
    edited March 2016
    I'm definitely an advocate for HP over Defense. I also favor AP over Power for PVP, initially anyway. I don't even recall dying going against a GWF or SW. Not bragging, it just is what it is. My setup and quick play style is difficult to defend against. If my initial stealth dunk doesn't do it then I'm spamming my debuff/slowing daily and dazing immediately afterward before dunking again. Weapon damage debuff's, deflect, etc. Tanky CW's with glyphs and rings tend to be more of a challenge. One thing is for sure, if they implement any more new HAMSTER into pvp it will be beyond broken but it's still enjoyable to play currently if you have a good team. I just want a map pack for Dom. Seriously, how hard is it to give us a few new maps? Even one?
    Super Saiyan God- TR Lvl 70 (PVP)
    Unleash The Wolves- HR Lvl 70 (PVE)
    <font color="Aquamarine">"Non-Pay-To-Win"</font>
    I hunt GWF "Magik" on sight.
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    yourenext2dieyourenext2die Member Posts: 614 Arc User
    edited March 2016
    ^



    Super Saiyan God- TR Lvl 70 (PVP)
    Unleash The Wolves- HR Lvl 70 (PVE)
    <font color="Aquamarine">"Non-Pay-To-Win"</font>
    I hunt GWF "Magik" on sight.
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    ralexinorralexinor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 576 Arc User
    azuosed89 said:

    "SE would do bad damage even if they did stack arp if it was affected by tenacity because tenacity would reduce it by probably 60% at least. TRs, outside of SE, do no damage. If they fixed SE they'd need to buff TRs in other ways."

    personally I think not. I think it would still do decent damage. I do agree that TRs are funny attacking unless they use shocking execution. to be honest, I don't even have a lot of trouble fighting TRs... I am a GWF at 150k HP, crazy heals, etc, so I can survive multiple SE until I kill a TR. Now what is broken is bring two of these guys in a premade with two or 3 supports. They have stealth/mobility, and an annoying CC, and when they time two dailies together, it is very vicious. personally I think it is the problem. The problem is that I think they are funny because they don't stack armor pen to just maximize the power build. Maybe they can be pretty decent if they did stack armor pen? not sure though.

    Okay. What you don't understand is the formulas for damage is PvP regarding tenacity. Currently SE is neither affected by DR (and hence arpen) as well as tenacity. This is a massive gamechanger in terms of what the actual damage of the skill is. I don't know what module xbox is on atm, but let's assume the average damage of SE is around 120k at base damage, as a critical hit.

    Let's assume 40% tenacity (realistically with lionsmane gear etc. it's higher, probably closer to 42-43% or something I don't remember).

    If SE was affected by tenacity, assuming the TR is mitigating ALL your defense, the damage would be:

    120,000 * (1 - 0.4)^2 = 43200 (formula is [base damage] * [1 - tenacity]^2)

    Decent damage? Sure. When it's the TR's only source of damage? No. And being a GWF you will have insane amounts of DR with negation + sprint + ring if you have it, so the TR will NEVER mitigate your defense to 0, so realistically the value will be probably around 30k or less. Considering your HP is 150k that's pretty much peanuts.

    Also in regards to saying 2-3 TRs focusing you, that's not really much different than 2-3 GWFs focusing you or 2-3 GFs focusing you - you're going to die either way. Honestly, 2-3 TRs is far weaker than 2-3 GF/GWFs.

    The problem with the PvP in this game is not necessarily tenacity, it's the power creep and the dev's inability to play the game and hence see the problem with the classes. It's the players that find the broken BiS builds, the devs play at something like 2-3k ilvl with probably stupid builds. Their resources are so limited that they aren't able to hire proper game testers or have time to focus on the balance aspect of the game; I'm pretty sure they're pressured by WotC to push out new content at set intervals (to coincide with WotC's content releases as well), which reduces the time they can spend on balances.

    Tenacity is a problem of its own, it splits the playerbase between those who have lionsmane gear and those who don't, because it makes such a difference. Yes, the way it affects crit damage is stupid, but that's honestly not the biggest problem atm.
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    indylolindylol Member Posts: 544 Arc User
    @ralexinor

    Were on the exact same mod as you.

    And Gannicus is essentially right, many people rant about rainbows for the exact reason that TRs are still in the S class of PvP and 2 of them playing together can cause kills through Gift of Faith and 130k HP. Its not skill based anymore, its coordination. I do cheesy set up kills on my GF with my best TRs and theres rarely a target that survives.

    Now you are right about Tenacity and lionsmane being a sort of gate for PvP. But Drains, Guild Boons, and everything else Strongholds is a large contributor to that problem.

    Personally I'd like to see NW shift away from these big team formats and implement a more balanced 2v2 and 3v3 ladder system, then they will see where the real imbalances are. *Cough* GiftoffaithIntothefrayBubbleShockingExecutionCourageBreakerSmokebombGiftofHaste *Cough*
    B) LGPG Leader B)
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    yourenext2dieyourenext2die Member Posts: 614 Arc User
    indylol said:

    GiftoffaithIntothefrayBubbleShockingExecutionCourageBreakerSmokebombGiftofHaste *Cough*

    lol
    Super Saiyan God- TR Lvl 70 (PVP)
    Unleash The Wolves- HR Lvl 70 (PVE)
    <font color="Aquamarine">"Non-Pay-To-Win"</font>
    I hunt GWF "Magik" on sight.
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    sh00termcl0vinsh00termcl0vin Member Posts: 287 Arc User
    Because you can't just kite two gwfs around for days.... Bad analogy about being focused. Smoke bomb is just too strong of a PvP ability (aoe stun that lasts 4 seconds wtf??) when you have two rogues focusing someone. All it takes is one well timed smoke and bam your dead.

    SE isn't even the worst of it. Try playing a class that has no dodge (Gwf or warlock) and getting courage breaker spammed inside of a smoke bomb spam. The main reason rogues are broken is because stuns and crowd control effects in general are broken.

    No diminishing returns on crowd control effects in PVP is a huge mistake in any MMO and leads to broken imbalanced stuff like this. Players will always take the easiest path to the win which is why the mechanics of the game need to thwart that path.

    Unfortunately the devs don't really care about pvp balance in this game at all because it was designed around pve. So if your looking for a competeive pvp game based on skill, this is not the game for you. That's why leaderboards, bragging, and epeen in Neverwinter are all meaningless. However if you understand these facts, accept them for what they are, stay away from 5s, and play for the fun of it, you will have a much better time IMO.
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    rayrdanrayrdan Member Posts: 5,410 Arc User
    s4v10rx said:

    executioner feat on the TR tree got a big boost for mod 8.

    nothing changed but you can post some patch notes and i will take it back
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    masterogamasteroga Member Posts: 474 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    Haha, a well organized team of guardian fighter (wearing ring of ambush, of course) and multiple shocking execution rogues is broken as hell. They travel in an all invisible pack, cast into the frey, and hit multiple 200+k executions (I've seen as high as 260k!). It's difficult to win when 3 party members are getting 1 shotted at the same time. I was quite 'shocked' when there wasnt a SE nerf in that list of nerfs :/
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