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CW and pvp: chill stacks and control...have u saw them?
kronerr
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 17 Arc User
Cws are atm one of the 2 classes that have more problems in pvp (the other is the hr). We can't deal so many damages, we can't control enough, we can't survive as well as most of other classes and we currently don't have a real role in a pvp. why this? reasons are too many but I want to focus on a few ones cause they are, imo, the biggest problems about this class.
1) chill stacks: they are our main source of damage and control, and our only choice to do something, but atm is really hard to build them fast, and even if u can they stand for a very few time and it's impossible to use all their burst. Why this? chill add also a cc when u apply them, this should "slow" your target but tenacity and control resistance made that slow useless, but you're still adding a cc so it means that your chill will stand for less time and this also means...NO damage. Elven battle made all this ridicoulos cause it's even impossible to add all 6 stacks, and even if u use icy veins or if something procs the result is that u will be able only to cast 1 skill with a good damage buff...if u're fast. In a few words what i mean is: chill is too hard to apply and it takes so many time that u will not be able to use your class features as intended, and oneslty? This sucks! We are not so tanky against most classes, but this is fine, the problem is that we don't do enough damage to kill before we get killed, and we can't control enough to do what we should do. Seriously guys, we should be the control class, and the only real cc is repel...yes..repel, all the other things can't be called control. And this bring us to point 2
2) Control: oneslty I think we have the worst control in game. Tr have smoke bomb, dazing strike, courage breaker, gf have prones (the only thing except repel that the elven can't cover -.-), Sw have some good controls too, Hr have roots (but poor hrs leave them alone, they are probably more unlucky than us), Op have....actually they have everything so they don't count and we can continue but I guess u understood what I mean. So what's the end of this? pls do something, I don't think u should make us more tanky, or give us more dps, just make our chill stacks usefull, let it be our main source of damage/control/survability as they supposed to be! There is too much heal/self heal currently in pvp, and we can't really compare with the other classes if u don't give us to use what u give us. What can u do? made that chill more strong, let it stand longer or let us stacking stacks faster for at least use a full rotation buffed when we have the possibility to do it. Or if this is too hard (and it will be funny) separate the cc effect of chill from the damage it give us. I can't really be in silence when u said that the next class balance will exclude us (and u guys really are not going to do nothing with the gfs burst of damage???)
1) chill stacks: they are our main source of damage and control, and our only choice to do something, but atm is really hard to build them fast, and even if u can they stand for a very few time and it's impossible to use all their burst. Why this? chill add also a cc when u apply them, this should "slow" your target but tenacity and control resistance made that slow useless, but you're still adding a cc so it means that your chill will stand for less time and this also means...NO damage. Elven battle made all this ridicoulos cause it's even impossible to add all 6 stacks, and even if u use icy veins or if something procs the result is that u will be able only to cast 1 skill with a good damage buff...if u're fast. In a few words what i mean is: chill is too hard to apply and it takes so many time that u will not be able to use your class features as intended, and oneslty? This sucks! We are not so tanky against most classes, but this is fine, the problem is that we don't do enough damage to kill before we get killed, and we can't control enough to do what we should do. Seriously guys, we should be the control class, and the only real cc is repel...yes..repel, all the other things can't be called control. And this bring us to point 2
2) Control: oneslty I think we have the worst control in game. Tr have smoke bomb, dazing strike, courage breaker, gf have prones (the only thing except repel that the elven can't cover -.-), Sw have some good controls too, Hr have roots (but poor hrs leave them alone, they are probably more unlucky than us), Op have....actually they have everything so they don't count and we can continue but I guess u understood what I mean. So what's the end of this? pls do something, I don't think u should make us more tanky, or give us more dps, just make our chill stacks usefull, let it be our main source of damage/control/survability as they supposed to be! There is too much heal/self heal currently in pvp, and we can't really compare with the other classes if u don't give us to use what u give us. What can u do? made that chill more strong, let it stand longer or let us stacking stacks faster for at least use a full rotation buffed when we have the possibility to do it. Or if this is too hard (and it will be funny) separate the cc effect of chill from the damage it give us. I can't really be in silence when u said that the next class balance will exclude us (and u guys really are not going to do nothing with the gfs burst of damage???)
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Now having said that I honestly believe that your frustration is towards pvp as a whole mess and not in what you just typed per se.
I can give you that if you play ren+spell twisting its hard to apply chill stacks or play ren full tree or thau full tree its also hard to do that too , plus oppressor does not have an edge versus other classes or curently played trees so lets just say, for the sake of YOUR argument that its unviable in BiS pvp.
But you cant tell me that its undoable to play icy veins and go either thau (in which case you have to think playing with drowned weapons and you ll get spell twisting), or ren and be able to proc chaotic growth just to have a chance at surviving and get your damage from nexus + lostmauth (in which case you have to stack recovery so bye-bye power and bye-bye spell twisting)
I really do believe that you also know that, as much as the fact that a cw can have a person 24/7 frozen on arena
I believe that you know these things
So my point i guess is that having so many good players from every class being frustrated about the state of pvp nowadays , and given that most of them are not cry-babies (yes some of them are, and they ll always complain no matter what) frustrates me as well
I also think that a this thread is neither a buff thread not a nerf thread but a cry for help for balancing things better in which case I can relate so i could give you a thumbs up
But as far as your opening point goes and for any newcomer that might read this and jump into conclusions just because he knows you as a name in pvp : No mate its not correct , not correct at all
PS : i left outside my opinion enchants cause the plot thickens then and that might as well be a book instead of a thread in a forum but whoever uses elven and not negation is susceptible in getting his bottoms handed to him more often than not so i dont think that your prob is elven .... and i know you also know that
HRs share the same problem with thorned roots which is supposed to tick 6-7 times, with the enemy wearing an elven battle if it ticks once is gold.
cant say much about cws control, it seems pretty much limited to repel...on the other hand repel cooldown is way too low to give more control to cws.
if the request is to nerf elven battle to give something else instead of cc immunity i 100% agree.
like i would suggest to put a cap on armor pen and armor pen reduction which is only helping tanky-striker classes.
I believe that you know these things "
What?
1v1 at BiS, we can only defeat HRs or other CWs.
I tried opressor a few days ago, with full cc bonus, valindra set and orb of imposition feated. Control was a bit better, but still mediocre against bis players, the damage was just silly.
Not sure what they can do about it. It will probably be like this for some time.
Main question- Is CW playable? Yes it is, with ambush ring becouse you can survive a bit longer, but in endgame pvp you won't be able to kill other classes in 1 vs 1, and haters who are complaining: " Go l2p ambush user" are just ridiculous for me because CW is just UNDERPOWERED class from long time and they just don't know how to play against it, they hate me because they can't kill me and they keep hating because they have got L2P issuse. This is how it looks like when you meet player who know how to play vs CW:
He is not complaining about ambush, he just know how to play- He knows that you can stun CW between his dodges, and he have not possible way to avoid it. Ambush ring, ring of sieging, amount of tenacity + 150k hp BIS CW is just 1 rotated by GFs and GWFs ( but mainly vs GFs)
Also against warlock it looks horrible sometimes becouse they are one big walking bug
Only in mod 4 CW perform well, now it make no sens. I am honest i am not going to use warm and sweet words- PvP as CW in Neverwinter is just poor experience, anyway i don't even care about all of this, because i stopped playing neverwinter after last Devs stream when they proimised just nothing, and this is sad, really sad...because i had a lot of fun in this game, but not anymore.
Grettings,
Obsy.
2: I NEVER thought that you were crying.Scratch that, we know the cry-babies of the forum and we can (all) agree that you are not one of them , thats probably one of the reasons I ever responded to you
3:I agree to everything you said above, thats why on my initial response i told you that so yes i agree with you on the point you want to make here, but you have to understand that many new people will read this and will jump into wrong conclusions so i basically gave you a reason though my response to be more explanatory on the point you want to make
4:many classes share the same frustration with you (on their respective classes of course) but again 5:I am not just imagining numbers here Valindra set can get you there
6:I cant stress this enough so i ll just say it again : You are not a whiner and your frustration is legitimate and yes many classes have to be shown love but first and foremost they must be shown the RESPECT from the developing team on their initial corresponding roles
Yes one Glimpse at the leaderboard Shows "A" Cw as in 1 cw making your statements contradictory and confusing and actually not supporting your sarcasim ..Try to examine the overall kill to death ratio of most Pvp Cws to determin an average performance baseline ...also remember That a cw that tends to premade more will have more wins and less losses ..However less kills per death ..... A Cw that Tends To solo or dual Q more will have less wins to losses but More Kills to deaths.. That Is important When determaining performance characterisitcs for any class dont you Think ?
2) Cws need control to work as it should be, so after a control buff, elven battle needs a nerf cuz is overperforming.
3) What is killing CWs and everyone else are: GFs, GWFs, proper build BiS SWs, and first strike SE.
Now in actual BIS premades the field looks different. It's here that real differences between classes are noticeable. Especially if noone is using drains and ambush rings. Then GF one rotates anything, GWF can hit like a freaking truck, TR can shock for 80k +, SW can survive for days and own certain classes, Paladin is still immortal unless bugged, DC can't be killed unless gangbanged, HR can keep a single player on 100% lockdown, and CW can repel you a mile away from node every 4 seconds and kill you while you try to cap a node. Now in a rainbow vs rainbow comp you have a "use" for every class.
However the ability to Q with multiples means you can prefer the most OP classes that are 1v1 gawds atm. GF's and TR's still own the 1v1 scene in terms of spike damage and kills. GWFs close behind. CW is much less a killer than it used to be, it's a harasser that once the node is owned can make your life pure hades in terms of trying to cap a node. SW kills CW's 1v1 basically every time, it's a class thing. HR's can lock a single player or a node down with CC but their damage is very bad and slow.
The issue in PVP is that everyone wants to be the 1v1 gawd. I like the idea of check and balance, but this is very difficult to achieve. I.E. each class should have it's counter. Forever TR's were the GWF counter until TR SE got ridiculous now it's starting to level back out a bit. GF has no counter except either a Pally or DC or maybe a really skilled TR but it's a tough fight. CW gets killed by SW most times because they kill themselves on Warlocks bargain. HR's sometimes as well with dot damage. HRs can win 1v1's with almost any class except GWF, but they must not make any mistakes in rotation lol.
Pally is the stand alone that can build for survivability and can be focused by an entire team and not die. If Q's were designed to try and match comp or check and balance matches would be much more interesting and much less trolly. Also if matches were better able to match IL then the pug stomps that give people insane numbers would not happen as often.
Of course they think it sucks, Mor. They're still in the 1v1 mentality.
The matter of fact is, with the exception of the clusterf**k known as TEB, and assuming the state of PVP normalcy before the introduction of the P2W sh*tstorm known as PvP rings, SH bonuses, OP mounts, the CW was, and is, at a state of peculiar but effective balance in that it actively gave you an irreversible choice to either take the path of damage, or take the path of control, but not both.
The downfall of PvP in this game began when at the point where many classes started to achieve omnipotency. High defense, high damage, high utility, self-heal and high survivability all by themselves. When this choice of either be good in this area or that was eradicated from the game, so was eradicated the concept of balance with it.
It's not the CW that's weak, It's everything else that went far beyond the limits of what a single character/class should be doing in combat, and every player of those classes who still remain in the silent cartel of "oh don't mind me, we don't need nerfs. go buff others" that makes things worse by the minute.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Then it becomes a crutch for players to use who feel hobbled or another OP weapon in their arsenal if they feel like being trolls. The ambush rings are a very poor addition to the game and I'm always surprised to see veterans of this game using them.
It´s from killing them easily despite being far undergeared to being stomped 24/7, not the smallest chance to face them. ... and the last ones are not using ambushring, but run 150k HP , some got high deflect and hit like a truck.
But in the sum I would say CW class is not the strongest class at all, HUnter is weaker, warlock in between having more problems against some other classes, except CW´s
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However I do not use The ambush ring in offensive PvP
There are many Well known Cws from tagged guilds that do use it however they do not approach my score
If I Were using The ambush ring as you Clain to rack up kills My kills to deaths Would Be Easly double that !!!
If I were using Drains to rack up Kills It would be Triple That
P.S there are not 30 different Kinds of food buff that you can take at once ..False
Most high end cws are taking guild food buffs as well but still do not approach my score
Their Builds are K/d Challenged and they are cannon fodder
Poor positioning, battlefield awareness , use of the terrain , Footwork, field of view /camera setting/ No CC break
all of these things are gear independent
Poor Ping on the other hand is another story some classes are more lag resistant defensively or offensively then others
I have a relatively close to BIS geared toon of each class, I could accomplish this with almost any of them, not because I'm some beast but because if you simply outgear your opponents and chase kills and campfire it if you start taking deaths your K/D ratio will soar. The more hours you spend doing this, the more likely you are to end up at the top. However this does not help your team in the slightest and doesn't prove skill either.
Pugstomping = high K/D ratios
Pugstomping with drains and rings = higher K/D ratios
It's pretty plain and simple. Now, that said, some of the people with high K/D ratios are some of the best of their classes, but some simply chase the kills.