T2 content (Epic Cragmire, Epic Gray Wolf Den, etc.), too hard? Easy? Fair?

arcofortep12

Just to show what's the general consensus is. So developers can take this in consideration for balancing things out.

Since there aren't only premades and grinders (perfectly legitimate, no critics intended) but even PUGS and semi-casuals better to show off what's the general consensus is. The poll is anonymous, both to preserve the legitimate expectation for geared toons, or very balanced parties, to run the content the way they want and the low geared ones, or random parties, to run the content the way they want.

I hope to not have been biased and just but it's always hard to please anyone.

ephrak

For the most part I agree with magenubbie - they're fair challenges but not too overblown. Only thing close to bucking that trend is still the final boss in eGWD.

silverkelt

They are too easy.. but who cares they OFFER nothing but mimic fodder.. frankly if they just handed me a purple I could pass to the coffer every day.. I would never run t2s, because THEY offer no reason to run them. They are the most UNREWARDING aspect in the entire game.

And ive been playing mmos for more then some of you have lived now.. let me tell you something, you play with those who you know, you get into global channels, you find guilds and you play with those YOU know , doesnt MEAN you dont meet new people, sure you do! you add them to your list of friends! and then you run with them as well. This concept that you DONT do this is the wrong one.. not the right one. HOW do you get to know people otherwise? This is just so weird to me, saying you should never premake anything.. NO my friend its the opposite, until about 5-6-7 years ago.. YOU NEVER pugged.. there WAS no random queues to enter.. you ONLY made premades IN every mmo until about that time. This "other" random pug thing is the "NEW" thing and ITS not good.. its really bad in fact, IVE never seen it where it ADDED more to the game. No getting groups together and getting to know people is the real part of a mmo.

I would love to have seen some of you do these with arp bug..

I would love to see some of you back in mod 1 when we spend a hour getting through idiris with 6-7k gs players..

I would love to see what you would think of the first time you spilled into SP.. Karrundux and Frozen Heart with 100 mobs around you.. and you freaked out.

There is no real challenge in this game when you base it back into that time frame.

In addition, there is ALREADY enough EASY content into the game.. we need some harder stuff now.

There is plenty of people around 2k i level to do.. more then enough to last a year in fact for a new player. By that time they will be ready for more challenge.

bushman1313

If need farm skirmish content - do premade, if need play for fun - change environment.

For my characters current skirmish content is not doable nor fun.

blazious11

T2 difficulty is fine, what we need is more diversity.

Before mod 6 we had a lot of dungeons, with different difficulty: (with properly geared for dungeon, not bis party)

Cloak Tower, ECC - very beginner, you could defeat it with any party composition. (Even then you could see people fail)
Other T1: GWD, Trone of Idris (personal favourite) - a little harder, there could be some deaths and failures.
Lair of Mad Dragon: A lot harder, than other T1-s. Party composition matters, hard time, if you don't kill erinyes first (which was a pain with unexperienced pugs. - A lot of failures, escpesially with first boss.
PK: Easiest T2 with the worst (offhand) reward. Easy, speedruns, beginner level. (Easier than LoMD)
Other T2: Karrundax, Etos, Frozen Heart, (where you needed a good Tank) spellplague - A medium level, where you needed good builds and actual teamwork. From easy to difficult. A good learning exprience. (Or even better: before mod 2, a real pain, but worthwile experience!)
Malabog, Valindra: New mod dungeons, increased difficulty with new boss mechanicks, new and better reward, you needed to grind a bit for it, but nothing too serious - the reward (BIS weapon set, but NOT 2x better than previous, so they did not became obsolete) worth the runs. The lack of DPS could be overcame with teamwork.
CN: expert level, you needed to build a good charackter, a good party, upgrade your char, get good equipment etc to be able to beat it. THE dungeon, where the loot worth the runs. (After mod 2 for a lot time a CW-fest though. But insane difficulty at first - And people learnt to beat it!)
Dread Vault: More difficult than CN (after mod 2-3?), you needed good party, not just CW-s and teamwork to beat the boss, skill was more important than dps. A very nice dungeon, with not the best rewards, but real fun.
You couldn't be carried through the hardest dungeon by a GF/OP+ 1 Dps if you were a total idiot. You needed to contribute.

Also, a very important thing: different rewards in every dungeon! So if you went to a more difficult dungeon, your time was paid, because the loot was more expensive.

Now, with 6 dungeons, ther is no learning curve for beginners. You can't know charakter by running kessel.

You only need go to Elol, which is the easiest, and fastest (or VT). No need for MC, 2 times longer.

You only need to go to Etos, which is the easiest and fastest. No need for GWD or ECC, 2 times longer. (ohh, wait! even better, you dont really need to go to T2 anymore, the rewards are horrible and obsolete.)

There is no endgame dungeon now, no need to learn to play your charakter, (not even need to build a good charackter) you can be carried in even the hardest dungeons or Edemo.

So we need new, challengive dungeons, or epic version of the dungeons for endgame, with different and exclusive rewards in every dungeon!

thefabricant

https://youtu.be/-XzKQvqb6Nc
https://youtu.be/d0e6DCZ7JYc
https://youtu.be/io6daJ98EJY
https://youtu.be/5zWRBW4cWi0

Those speak for my opinion.

grommi3

blazious wrote it right.

Hardest dungeons are just challenge but even challenge must be interesting and current skirmish dungeons are not interesting or there is no point to do them because you have stuff from them.

Old dungeons was also interesting because there was allways bossibility to run them in random party... just if party listening advice (OFC, TOS/Dread Vault was harder complete if no premade)

blazious11 said:

T2 difficulty is fine, what we need is more diversity.

Before mod 6 we had a lot of dungeons, with different difficulty: (with properly geared for dungeon, not bis party)

Cloak Tower, ECC - very beginner, you could defeat it with any party composition. (Even then you could see people fail)
Other T1: GWD, Trone of Idris (personal favourite) - a little harder, there could be some deaths and failures.
Lair of Mad Dragon: A lot harder, than other T1-s. Party composition matters, hard time, if you don't kill erinyes first (which was a pain with unexperienced pugs. - A lot of failures, escpesially with first boss.
PK: Easiest T2 with the worst (offhand) reward. Easy, speedruns, beginner level. (Easier than LoMD)
Other T2: Karrundax, Etos, Frozen Heart, (where you needed a good Tank) spellplague - A medium level, where you needed good builds and actual teamwork. From easy to difficult. A good learning exprience. (Or even better: before mod 2, a real pain, but worthwile experience!)
Malabog, Valindra: New mod dungeons, increased difficulty with new boss mechanicks, new and better reward, you needed to grind a bit for it, but nothing too serious - the reward (BIS weapon set, but 2x better than previous, so they did not became obsolete) worth the runs. The lack of DPS could be overcame with teamwork.
CN: expert level, you needed to build a good charackter, a good party, upgrade your char, get good equipment etc to be able to beat it. THE dungeon, where the loot worth the runs. (After mod 2 for a lot time a CW-fest though. But insane difficulty at first - And people learnt to beat it!)
Dread Vault: More difficult than CN (after mod 2-3?), you needed good party, not just CW-s and teamwork to beat the boss, skill was more important than dps. A very nice dungeon, with not the best rewards, but real fun.
You couldn't be carried through the hardest dungeon by a GF/OP+ 1 Dps if you were a total idiot. You needed to contribute.

Also, a very important thing: different rewards in every dungeon! So if you went to a more difficult dungeon, your time was paid, because the loot was more expensive.

Now, with 6 dungeons, ther is no learning curve for beginners. You can't know charakter by running kessel.

You only need go to Elol, which is the easiest, and fastest (or VT). No need for MC, 2 times longer.

You only need to go to Etos, which is the easiest and fastest. No need for GWD or ECC, 2 times longer. (ohh, wait! even better, you dont really need to go to T2 anymore, the rewards are horrible and obsolete.)

There is no endgame dungeon now, no need to learn to play your charakter, (not even need to build a good charackter) you can be carried in even the hardest dungeons or Edemo.

So we need new, challengive dungeons, or epic version of the dungeons for endgame, with different and exclusive rewards in every dungeon!

blazious11

arcofortep12 said:

clonkyo1 said:

arcofortep12 said:

I find it difficult to join T2 with a random party by pugging. Everyone got their Epic Elemental Gear in a way or the other but success rates on T2 are far less than T1, that's undeniable. In my opinion if you success 9 times out of 10 in a T1 dungeon it become 2/3 times out of 10 in a T2 dungeon (many players end their adventure at end boss or even at midboss, eGWD comes to mind). I'm talking about PUGS teams.

I can understand magenubbie's point, the 'fair challenges for the targeted players' one, but if you allow pugging to anyone it's success rate should stay high, like 6 out of 10 at least. My 2 cents.

Sorry, but you should not talk much after you stated that, in example, etos cant be done with 2k il chars. The difference between a "pug" and a "normal player" is, basically, that "normal players" learn how to do things while "pugs" just want to enter dungeons, want to pull everything into a single point to kill everything (better if they just die in the way by doing nothing at all, but well, lucky for us, those kind of powers are not that powerful... yet) and get the best possible reward.

I've just completed EToS in 18 minutes (thanks to others obviously, I'm undergeared) can you take personal dislike to my person out of the topic? It isn't necessary.
The point is that if a PUG is joined by a 10k Power random party it will end up badly. And it happens too much frequently, T1s are doable by almost everyone instead. If your party is undergeared 'knowing what to do' will not save it.

You can't judge the game's difficulty with pugs. They are mostly don't know how to play, they want to be carried by a group with minimal effort. (with a few exceptions). Most time they don't even understand the powers and feats, or don't speak english.
In mod 2 even the easiest dungeon, Cloak Tower and ECC could be a failure with stupid players. CT was around a Celadine tower difficulty at most.

ETOS is doable with 2k with exped players, or with a little more with moderately exped players. The other two T2 are harder, but completely doable with a 2-2,5k party if you can play.
2K is the minimum requirement as it states: the bare minimum to enter, you can beat the dungeon, but it will be pain. But there is a difference between 2k players: one understands, that he needs 60% resist ingored, even if his power is at most 7-10k, the other has 20% resistance ignored, and do a lot less damage even if he has 15k power. A random pug don't even know about these things.


IMO if you (not you personally, random player) don't know what to do, you should not beat a dungeon. That is difficulty. No developer team should adjust dungeon difficulty to pugs ever.

Knowing what to do, learn how to overcome the challenges will SAVE you. If not, get some equipment before entering the dungeon again, even a few percent of lifesteal or crit can be decisive.


I pugged a lot in mod 2 and after. If I came across a good player, we pick up each other to friendlist, and went together next time. If we faced a difficult situation, we learned how to beat it, use different rotations or builds. IT's still doable now even without help from experienced players, altough there are more of them now, who can help you if you want to learn.

The problem is, that there is a big gap between T1 and T2, no between, like Lair of Mad Dragon or PK was before.

As I wrote before, no learning curve, not enough dungeons with different difficulty, where you can learn to play your charakter.
And pugs don't even have to learn, if it's enough to pray for an OP or BIS GWF to randomly queue with you, that can carry you through.

Playing a MMO is about community and teamplay. If you cant play in a team, and you dont want to learn how to play, then you are better off with a single player non-online RPG.

(p.s. by "you" I mean a random player)

gromm1t

Voted that content is "Hard", .

They just downgraded "AD" and prices, I wish same happen to gear and older dungeons are brought back. Then can again complete Spellplague with rank4´s and low level blue gear.... as CW I still love push objects over edges and kite around.

Voting is free and voters protected by "Anonymity"... just my IMHO.

blazious11

1. But mathematics isn't an opinion: If you can't shell out 250 million DPS, because even the best possible build can't make you make wonder even with buffs in place, there is no magic that will make you do. If you can't sustain all your party damage because you aren't geared there is no way, if you can't shell out 8 millions HP in healing because you don't have the gear there is nothing you can do. Mathematics aren't opinions.

250 million damage, not dps. There is a difference. There is no time limit to do it, so you can do 250 millon damage, if you can stay alive. Easiest to say, that the dps is too low, therefore you can't beat the dungeon. But it's not true. You can eventually, but it will take a lot more time.
You need to identify the problem:
You die too often? Why is that? Healing is too low, the DC is undergeared? If it is: what different rotation could he use to maximize his effectiveness? Is he a faithful or a righteous? Faithful would be better for low-geared players, where righteous not really good for there.
Or Tank not aggroing well? If that is the problem, how could he be more effective?
What kills you actually? Is it the boss? - Are you standing in a red zone? or Is it the mobs? - how could you controll or kill them faster? Should the Tank take care of the boss or the mobs.

For example etos: you have a tank, can tank the boss. You have a DC, it's better for the party to stand near the boss. You don't have enough dps, therefore you can't win by only dps - so 1 dps-ing boss, ALL of the others have to kill/control the mobs. Prioritize: who is the most important to take care of: The blademasters? who is the best for that? TR smokebomb can help a lot there. The spiders killing you? The cw can take care of them. The cw could use different skills - Shard can be used effectively against spiders for example, or when the blademasters jumps near the boss.
etcetc etc. There is a lot way to overcome dps problem, but you can't do that with pugs: they quit after the 1st failure at boss.

micky1p00

What is the poll supposed to tell us ? This is not a real statistical data, only cryptic has that one.
This is come to educate us about the forum users ?
I can already group us users into two groups, those that come here to read / 'talk' and learn things on the way or with the intention to learn or help others.
And those that come to complain about something. - not mutually exclusive, but I'll refer to the main reason people come.

Those in group A most likely to understand that the game has no end game content fitting the end game gear, the game itself provides. So most likely to vote "it's to easy" in hope the problem will be solved.
Those in group B will most likely vote "It's to hard"

This has nothing to do with the problems of the game, and only drags people into your personal 'flame' war with others in the forum.

arcofortep12 said:

It's not just about it. If they have heads but don't have the gear they go nowhere. It's easy to post video with 17k Power people and 2.000.000 AD companions but then there are people that have to deal with their 500.000 AD whole equipment that joins queues. Those that 'are not rich' or 'do not live inside the game'. And if you say that rich boys need their challenge too wearing their toys, I concur. Special content for them should be made eventually. The problem is that content for undergeared players isn't much, just 3 dungeons. Overgeared can run just naked and play whatever they want with whatever challenge they like. Undergeared can't just adapt.

x silverkelt: It's not my fault if you play from 3 years and have achieved everything!
T3 content for veterans it's fair.

Is the "rich boys" is a snide comment ? What this adjective supposed to bring ? I'm not rich nor a boy and yet want a challange to overcome with my friends, and progress, as MMO (or most games) should provide me.
If you can't keep your remarks about people who are more geared than you I will advice you to not post at all.

arcofortep12 said:

Overgeared can run just naked and play whatever they want with whatever challenge they like."

1. BS. You dont get to tell me "ohh you progressed for 3 years to get your gear and optimized your build, now throw it all away so you can play / have fun."
2. MMOs based on progress, you get more gear you get harder mobs, you get better gear, you get harder mobs, very simple, same mechanism as even Tetris, once this ends people find something else to do, and not in the this game.. Will you play Tetris for 2000 hours on level 1 ?

I hope you understand why the game can't allow to ask people to go "naked". Or why you as a player thinking it's a valid argument is just insulting.

arcofortep12 said:

Undergeared can't just adapt.

arcofortep12 said:

It's not my fault if you play from 3 years and have achieved everything!

Sure they can, and yes it is, I've explained it to you in length, but just for clarity sake, run 1 T1 per day OR 1 skirmish, nothing else and you can get an Ion stone in two months. Yes it's slow but progress, you have what ? 6 toons and none has an augment ?
It is your choice to pug, it is your choice to get army of alts with them not having 'minimal gear' like augment.

You can't blame others for the dungeons being hard for you and at the same time insist on not doing any simple action that will progress you. This is how pugs, become non pugs, most people realize very fast that pressing "k" will get them nowhere and move on...

zebular

Closing this up now as all it has festered into is an arguing match. There's really no need to pick apart everyone's comment to your threads, please learn how to respect and accept that folks will have a difference of opinion. Thanks.