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Daily power rework
blazious11
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 331 Arc User
I find the overuse of dailies a problem. Back then they were a high-end, hard hitting, tactical power, not a 4th/5th encounter.
Dailies are not just a problem for permabubble OP-s. Permaspamming daily is not very good imo. Just look at those snail, burning set, DC artifakt comboes. Not to mention virtous DC-s (and Tac GFs). Dailies are up in 5-10 seconds.
This post is about PVE, not hidden pvp nerf suggestion. I do not play pvp.
Idea: (it is flawed, and would require a full combat system rework, which not gonna happen. There are easier ways to solve the permaspam daily problem, but I still like the idea. Without a full rework, however, it would mean a lot more harm than good, I know.):
(I would make them a basic 2 or 1 and a half or 1 minute cooldown, and rework them, increase their power. So the cooldown would automatically decrease, just like on the artifakts. Every 400 point in recovery would decrease this cooldown by 1 sec, every point in attribute (Char-Dc/OP, Con-Gf etc) would also give you 1 sec decrease. (at the start, so instead of 2 mins, you'd have 1 min 37 sec initial cd, for example)
DC artifakt would decrease the cooldown by 5-10-15-20 (or 2-4-6-8-10) seconds, snail by 10 seconds, Burning by 15s (with an internal coodown maybe). The countdown would only work in combat.
The powers would become much stronger. Not just damage, but with utility
For example:
CW Ice strom: adds prone effect instead of push. Adds 1+1/rank chill stack. Ice Storm area becomes ice terrain-like for 6 seconds, damage over time.
Ice knife: prones for longer duration based on chill stacks, adds 10% bonus damage for every chill/arcane stack, etc. Add armor damaging effect, (2%/chill stack) for (arcane stacks*2) seconds.
GWF: Spinning Stike: adds deflect, run speed, control resist, bleed damage.
Slam: Increased damage, along with debuffs, slow, chance to prone etc.
Savage advance: Adds aoe damage upon impact, adds armor debuff effect (damage buff) for party.
TR:
Lurker's assault: Adds 6+1sec/rank permanent stealth, which does not interrupted by encounter use, and not decreases with at-will use
Bloodbath: Damage, adds bleed damage. Target stuck by the power dazed for the daily"s duration.
And so on...)
Of course, feats, like virtous DC ang tac GF should be reworked in some way. There are classes, that are more dependant on dailies, like CW,SW, and those who do not really benefit from them (GWF). There are players, who spent a lot of, so they can fully utilize their dailies. Harm them would be really unfair. This is why it would require a full combat rework.
The main idea is to balance, "nerf" daily usage, the concrete maths could be different.
But I find it wrong, that with current meta, you can use your daily in every 10 seconds.
Of course, there are a lot more problem with PVE, daily is just the tip of the iceberg. If there would be some content, like T3 dungeons, it would not be a big problem.
I know, this would mean a big change to current meta, and it is unlikely to happen, but I'd like to know, if you would like a change like this.
My story is truly a grand tale! Of course, any story about me is going to be grand simply by virtue of the main character.
Post edited by blazious11 on
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In few words, if you focus on dailies only, you don't solve the problem because there many side effects.
Imo you touched the real point at the end but you stop without investigating more: implicitly you're talking "class balance & rework" + a new combat design.
My experience tells me that this is not going to happen in the near future and btw this rework will force me to put in the trash the investment I did on my DC in the past 2 years...not an easy point to solve.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
You have to compensate vDC-s ( who main advantage is the ap buff) and GF-s with useful buffs, and also warlocks, who deal sometimes 40-50% of their damage from tyrannical threat only. Also HR trapper capstone, CW Oppforce (control and high dps) etc.
The class that activates its dailies in pve every 2 months?
To the point:
I find the latter trend "nerf dailies" completely biased and unblanced.
Whole classes are based around dailies. Virtous DC ,SM tank Gf for example.
if you nerf dailies either you throw these classes into garbage bin,or you have to rework them.And do what?They already fill a role.They will take someone else class role.Rework and others then..and goes on....
On the other hand there are classes that are not going to have a problem at all.GWFs for example.That are based around unstoppable to excell.And unstoppable does not have a cooldown.Just an example.(meanwhile these people were whinning in mod6 start "hey devs our primary tab is not efficient".They misinformed the devs and now they have 80-90% unstoppable uptime-great balance!)
The point is not to hide behind labels and generalization .They are not dailies or encounters.You should talk about mechanics in the game that make content easy.
DC Sigil, for example.Yet none talks about that but about dailies in general.
Try to tank with KV on without steel defense.=problem.
Try to be DPS GWF with out daily=0 problem.
So ill say a big fat NO to your proposal.
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This trend has started by pvpers,GWF in general that don't do pve,their class doesn't rely on dailies,they have spend 0 in AP gain and because TRs spamm them with SEs and OPs are in perma bubble in pvp,whole classes in pve must be eradicated so these guys to have a better feeling in pvp,playing their barbarian toons.
Sorry for my tone,i don't refer to you in a personal way but these latter suggestions are the most biased rushed unblanced proposals i ever heard in playing NW the last 2,5 years.
Nerf dailies?NO NO NO.
My whole opinion is about Daily overusage, and that I find it a problem, in pve. I would like to see people use dailies tactically, not just spamming them.
But you are both right of course. What I stated would require to design a complete new system, which is not likely to happen. (and would most likely introduce a lot of new bugs and expoits)
The biggest problem is, of course, permabubble, but that will be most likely nerfed at some point.
A more easy and probably better soultion would be, with minimal rework as @ayroux suggested as 10th point: (still would be more harmful for certain classes, like cw/sw who don't have 2 equal dailies)
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1210876/feedback-10-wish-list-items-bugs-balance-make-this-game-great-again/p1
"All dailies will now have a 30 second CD on them. You can still gain AP, just not use the SAME daily 2x in succession more than 30 seconds apart. This will prevent the over-use of dailies as well as add value to both daily slots on your bar."
1.So a AP specced toon that fills his AP bar in 20 secs in the end will have same capabilities with another toon that fills its AP bar in 30 secs.
Is that fair to you?
2.Who will decide the CD?By what citeria?Do you or Ayroux play AP based pve classes?Do you understand the pain you will cause in pve?
A said GWFs opinions does not count.Simply cause you guys don't use dailies.You use att wills and unstoppable.
3.People got upset for lost set and said no cause they will lose AD.Do you know how much AD some pve classes will lose by your proposals? 4x the ad of someone that invested in lost set.
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As you said " What I stated would require to design a complete new system, which is not likely to happen. (and would most likely introduce a lot of new bugs and expoits)" ,and i agree.
Why you insist?
Why you generalize?
What is your argument? "add value to both daily slots on your bar" ??
"add value to both daily slots on your bar".
Extremely generic and personal.Completely objective.And i would reply by your proposal you don't ADD value you clearly SUBTRACT value.
And this is the whole about to be honest.Dailies, wide game nerf cause of high pvp.And not pvp in general but the extreme premade pvp between the top guilds.60 people.
Sometimes i wish people to focus and just state openly what they want:
The people behind these rushed ,not well thought suggestions,in realit they want to in pvp,to nerf TRs ability to spam Courage breaker and Se,and the prot OP to spam Divine protector.
Please,deal with these things directly and do not generalize and include thousand pve players.
Yes, I have a main GWF, who would not be hit by the change very hardly. I see your anger for Gwfs. I also have a main pve CW (I play both around the same time) who would be hit/needed to adjusted. I also play a TR, HR and SW from time to time, making one one them as my secondary char. I rotated them in the last 2+ years, they are sitting around 2,5k, waiting if I have the AD to refine their stuff, or get some spirit to play them. I also have DC, GF and OP, I rarely use them, mostly to help some guild runs if needed. Yet I took my time over the 2 years to understand their mechaniks and their different build possibilities. I did not make my OP as a GWF player. I do not want Gwf to become more powerful, I would like GWF to become close to other dps (lostmauth balance included) and make other 2 gwf paths viable. This post is not about gwf. My first suggestion was about ADD value to daily powers. Make them stronger. Make them less spammable. Make them a breaking power between succes and failure, if you use it at a right time. Make them a tactical use, instead of a spam use.
Those who invested in high ap-gain build, would still be functional, they could still more frequently use their hard hitting daily power than others. Yes, it would require some rework, but I did not suggested, that they should become useless. Yes, GF and DC would require rework in feats to compensate the loss. As I said, I also aimed to add value to recovery. Most classes have some mechanik to reduce their cooldowns, so recovery is only useful for 2-3 classes. The idea about daily power came as secondary to crit suggestion (which is the more important from the 2):
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1211194/new-critical-strike-stat-curves
Yes, I did not thought this thorough. As I said, it was just an Idea. There are different builds, that do not use steel defense. There are even some dps GF builds out there for pve, because the current dps-only meta. There are also succesful IV tanks without Steel Defense. You can rework the passive to give you a bigger damage immunity time. Spamming dailies with Steel Defense and KV is like permabubble OP-s + ITF. Yes, it takes more skill and even more investment.
I understand that investment should not lost in any rework. I don't insist. It was an idea. I wanted some opinions. Yours noted and appreciated.
I know, my suggestion is not the best. I said that in the OP.
But I still stand with that part of my OP, (which is the most important) that dailies should be meaningful powers, not spammable powers. In PVE.
I also understand, that there are a lot more important issues in PVE, that need to taken care of. I do not insist on Daily change at all, I'm happy with my permaspammed Oppforce. Yet I would welcome a change like this, if it's thought thorought and would come with other changes to the current meta, where control and other stuff are just as important as dps.
I still think, that cases, like permaspamming my oppforce after every encounter rotation should not be possible in any party composition. Or cases, when I can't even spam my trapper's rotation before the next daily. At least some maximum AP fill cap/sec or other limitation should be implemented in high level.
The best solution, of course, would be adding some challenge to pve in form of T3 dungeons and the like for top-end players.. I would not care about dailies then.
I not stated my opinion based on their stuff, that is completely another league. But permaspamming does not require that much, not even 4K. You are right though, it is a problem for the minority.
Dailies such as Paladin's bubble weren't an issue before this. 5 seconds of invulnerability? Not over-powered IMO.
5 seconds of invulnerability every 10 (or less) seconds, though? Yeah..... different story.
So while I think you're on the right track, I'd hate to see them nerfed to a 2 minute CD or something similar. Not only would a TON of gear have to be overhauled, they'd have to make dailies much more powerful in order to balance it. 5 sec invulnerability once every 120 seconds? Meh, probably not worth it. And a 40k Seismic Shot once every 120 seconds? Hahaha....yeah, no.
It would take a LOT of work from the dev team to overhaul things the way they are, which I simply can't see happening
--
I'll never retrace my steps.
Some of my best friends are Imaginary.
— (The unwritten rule)
1) nerf the DC AP feat + nerf the AP neck + nerf AP mount + nerf other items.
OR they can do something that other games have done in the past for the sake of balance (Like Warhammer Online)
2) Incorporate an ICD on dailies.
Now someone above said something like "What if player A specs so they can daily every 20 seconds but player B specs so its ever y, they are the same!" This is FALSE since player B would be able to use his OTHER daily and get 3 dailies in 1 minute while player B only gets 2 (maybe of the same daily).
I think this is an appropriate FIX, not a 'bandaid' fix, as it properly balances the game.
I fail to see how this idea of internal cooldowns is new or original. The idea has been brought up before- and has been implemented on occasion with GFs because they gain immortality from dailies.
I don't think calling for Nerfs helps anything nor do I believe that having every daily power have internal cooldowns is the only other answer. There are small problems that can be fixed with adjustments to how those dailies work- not every daily. Clerics can't gain AP after they use their persistent dailies like- Hallowed Ground and Divine armor- and you're now wanting an internal cooldown on them too?? I feel like what you're suggesting might work for some dalies but I stand by my opinion that an overall sweeping change to how everything works is equivalent to hacking everything up with a chainsaw instead of specifically looking into possible design fixes that could be implemented within each class. It's important to take into account how each classes dalies interact with other skills- feats and class features. I truly believe that this is something that should take time and I understand that it is not an easy fix.
Until I've played a class and know how it works to a certain degree I refrain from commenting on how it should be fixed or if it is actually broken. I specifically build my two main characters for party play because it's what I enjoy. I don't claim it's right for everyone-- but I will always try to suggest that people look at the bigger picture and not at only what affects them. It's something I struggle with myself from time to time. If people want to build support characters to make everyone elses DPS or party experience awesome with things that are in the game I don't see the issue. If you don't like casting your dalies so often- then don't wear ap increasing gear. There are options out there that don't call for the entire game to be changed to suite people who find issue with dailies.
I'm also curious to when your "back then" refers to in the OP~ I've been playing this game since 2013 and I've adapted to the meta of the game over time. I might find it easier to find common ground If I know when the "back in my day" was in this case. The only time for me that comes to mind is before class artifacts where in the game. Things started to change to more AP once Devoted Cleric artifacts came on the scene.
--
I'll never retrace my steps.
Some of my best friends are Imaginary.