Tiamat nerf

wolfe0rain

Ok, I don't want to be one of those people who sit there and whine on a forum about this needs a nerf or that... but Tiamat...

She is WAY too difficult to defeat unless you have a party together in which EVERYONE is informed of the 2 party split system, and the party is a FULL party... (in other words the max amount allowed into a tiamat instance).

Otherwise, it's always a fail. NEVER gotten a chest and I've played over 10 times... yet EVERY other instance similar to this I can at least get a chest out of it because we don't fail unless it's a bunch of "never played this one before" newbs...

Honestly, I'm a newb myself to a large degree, but at least I know how to read up and take on bosses like this.

Anyone else with me here that she's got WAY too much HP per head, and the timing of it is just impossibly short.

ghoulz66

Tiamat doesn't need a nerf, just some freakin endgame rewards to encourage more people to run it! Just another oversight by the DEVs. Tiamat is easily harder than eDemo, but there's simply no rewards from it. If it offered it's own special endgame gear then you might see more people attempting it.

jonkoca

Only run tiamat at 100% and if your il is high, try to join one of the specialist channels.

thefabricant

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEh20WzNaSQ
Tiamat is hard you say?

silverkelt

Its gated wrong.. its always been gated wrong.

Move it to 35% arp minimum arp entry and it will work.

I said that for 6 months now. I level is bad way to gate this.. so easy to get to min requirement and have REALLY really bad toons built.

thefabricant

defiantone99 said:

thefabricant said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEh20WzNaSQ
Tiamat is hard you say?

I have got into one of their runs and beat it in one round. The whole event done in around 5 minutes.

Yep, normally when I run with them, its 2 tiamat kills per hour, you do 1, then you swap to another instance and do it again.

instynctive

I've never gotten into a "specialist" channel... there should be no need for that...

But when there are 15 players AFKing at the campfire, there's simply no way to beat her. I haven't had a successful Tiamat run since Mod 6 was released, and honestly, since there isn't much of anything interesting from beating her, I have no desire to wast 20 minutes of my life.

wylonus

i posted months ago, since May 2015, devs just barely look at it, and decided to leave alone, i am sure they devs ran away with wet pants, they wont fix it.
i am still surprised they didnt pull taimat out of the game when they took out dungeons.

wylonus

yes, AFKers are the main problem.

namelesshero347

wylonus said:

yes, AFKers are the main problem.

Given how notoriously hard Tiamat is now, I doubt that anyone is going in leech. People become AFK once they realize it is hopeless to win.

wolfe0rain said:

Honestly, I'm a newb myself to a large degree, but at least I know how to read up and take on bosses like this.

Like someone said, there is nothing here to attract high iLvl people to run this, and you need them. The only people running this are relatively new players. Your time is better spent elsewhere, like in eLoL where there are still plenty of high iLvL players still running this for the horn drop.

thefabricant

namelesshero347 said:

wylonus said:

yes, AFKers are the main problem.

Given how notoriously hard Tiamat is now, I doubt that anyone is going in leech. People become AFK once they realize it is hopeless to win.

wolfe0rain said:

Honestly, I'm a newb myself to a large degree, but at least I know how to read up and take on bosses like this.

Like someone said, there is nothing here to attract high iLvl people to run this, and you need them. The only people running this are relatively new players. Your time is better spent elsewhere, like in eLoL where there are still plenty of high iLvL players still running this for the horn drop.

Have you looked at the videos I posted above? It is far from impossible, its easy, with a group of 25 intelligent players. All that really needs to change is that tiamat needs to have a queue option for 25 players to queue together so instead of having artificial difficulty and forcing those of us who run tiamat to have to do things like simultaneous queue and other stuff, to being able to just queue in groups of 25.

namelesshero347

thefabricant said:

namelesshero347 said:

wylonus said:

yes, AFKers are the main problem.

Given how notoriously hard Tiamat is now, I doubt that anyone is going in leech. People become AFK once they realize it is hopeless to win.

wolfe0rain said:

Honestly, I'm a newb myself to a large degree, but at least I know how to read up and take on bosses like this.

Like someone said, there is nothing here to attract high iLvl people to run this, and you need them. The only people running this are relatively new players. Your time is better spent elsewhere, like in eLoL where there are still plenty of high iLvL players still running this for the horn drop.

Have you looked at the videos I posted above? It is far from impossible, its easy, with a group of 25 intelligent players. All that really needs to change is that tiamat needs to have a queue option for 25 players to queue together so instead of having artificial difficulty and forcing those of us who run tiamat to have to do things like simultaneous queue and other stuff, to being able to just queue in groups of 25.

I didn't say the run was impossible to do. Given the state of Tiamat now, it's impossible for all the pieces to come together for a successful run for the average player.

silverkelt

Blah.. its not average players.. average player has 2.5k i level with r7s and a greater weapon enchant at least. Thats enough to do tiamat.

What you are talking about are the 50 people who queue every hour, expect to be carried with 15% arp and purchased AH blues and r5 slots and catalogue artifacts , who if not carried, sits at fire and waits for a chance at a egg to drop.

this isnt a average player problem , this is 100% a wrong gate problem. Move it to 40% arp required to get in.. fine with me. This would force those players to do enough dps to win it.

dzaims

Yeah, I've pretty much given up on Tiamat for the AFK'er issue. Even when the group totally smokes the summoners, they just sit around the fire waiting for the time to elapse. I'll never get enough Linu's favors to get the last two dragon boons. Something has to change. Even when going in with a mob of guildies, hell-bent on doing it, we usually get split in some proportion, and end up all getting foiled by the AFK'ers (an acronym for 'Apathetic F'ing Kids'? ).

I'm too old, and have limited game time, to sacrifice it on HAMSTER like this. Quit making me a hostage to other people's laziness.

silverkelt

After timer starts, if you sit at campfire/have no active score for 60 seconds in the fight you are summoned by Eliminster to the WoD camp and get nothing. (hes pretty upset your not driving back tiamat , wouldnt you be?) you of course can give up.. but you get nothing for it.

here.. plus the 40% arp gate.

Viola.. done my friends, no more complaining from anyone.

qexotic

silverkelt said:

After timer starts, if you sit at campfire/have no active score for 60 seconds in the fight you are summoned by Eliminster to the WoD camp and get nothing. (hes pretty upset your not driving back tiamat , wouldnt you be?) you of course can give up.. but you get nothing for it.

here.. plus the 40% arp gate.

Viola.. done my friends, no more complaining from anyone.

Nice idea, but knowing that Elminster also has a dry sense of humour (or irony ?) I think it more likely/appropriate that he would sentence offenders to complete the Fetch Quest 20-30 times before allowing them to continue with anything else. That might prove to be a sufficient incentive to AFKers to make them think twice about repeating their offence >:)

clericalist

I did some Tiamats the last few days and there were not many doing them, once there was only one instance and it only had 15 players in that instance. Perhaps this is because everyone is farming Demogorgon, but I don't expect Tiamat to be growing in number of players, those that have got all their linu tokens have no really incentive to do it again. Also most of the BIS got their linus when it was much easier, it was bad enough to do 70 Tiamats to finish your boons, but for new players to do this with a very high failure rate, it will not take long for most of them to realize that its close to impossible to achieve this now.

zibadawa

clericalist said:

I did some Tiamats the last few days and there were not many doing them, once there was only one instance and it only had 15 players in that instance. Perhaps this is because everyone is farming Demogorgon, but I don't expect Tiamat to be growing in number of players, those that have got all their linu tokens have no really incentive to do it again. Also most of the BIS got their linus when it was much easier, it was bad enough to do 70 Tiamats to finish your boons, but for new players to do this with a very high failure rate, it will not take long for most of them to realize that its close to impossible to achieve this now.

Well right now the hoard isn't at 100%, so a lot of people simply don't bother. They want the shot at the artifact and the largest possible stat boosts to increase the odds the run will succeed (incidentally, the stat boosts should include arpen to help that out).

I'm a little more than halfway through the linu's favors I need for the 6th boon. Making an empire treasure and one or two dragon runs a day, I get a little more than one favor *per week*. So in 3-4 more months I'll have that sixth boon, and about a year later I'll have the seventh one. Reasonable game design for the win! Honestly, the fastest way to get these boons is to buy the coffers on the AH. And then ask yourself "how many millions of AD is 3% life steal really worth to me?" Honestly, I'm being exceedingly dumb by even putting the coffers towards the favors instead of selling them.

You know, most games I've played adapt to content dying out and acquisition methods becoming onerous and painful by adding more methods, increased drop rates, etc. Not this game!

zibadawa

defiantone99 said:

Most of the things in this post are untrue. Join a Zerg channel. They have a 99.9 percent success rating when the hoard is at 100 percent. I have got enough Linu to get all the boons several times over.

And how do you get into a zerg channel? By having 3k ilvl, the point at which these boons are little more than enlargements of your e-peen?

urlord283

ghoulz66 said:

Tiamat doesn't need a nerf, just some freakin endgame rewards to encourage more people to run it! Just another oversight by the DEVs. Tiamat is easily harder than eDemo, but there's simply no rewards from it. If it offered it's own special endgame gear then you might see more people attempting it.

Yep

It was the thing to do so lots of good groups could be found... Now no one runs it

ultradd

There are like 2 people I know out of 40 that bother trying to do tiamat now. Not many people enjoy dying a million times if people forget to use\take some of the dragon souls.

rinat114

Tiamat is painful with pugs. As a guild we get 2 - 3 wins per hour, but it's organized and communicated through and through, and to be fair we're geared (not BIS as a unit, but around the 3k mark). Tiamat doesn't need a nerf, it needs common sense and hopefully people who know what they're doing. Joining a zerg channel or a competent guild that does that on occasion or regularly is a good solution, not every aspect of the game can be a guanrateed win and succesfuly pugged.

ichimaruginx

Tiamat is NOT hard at all. With avg players of 2.5k TIL and willing to listen to directions, yes the last part is important, it's fairly doable. There's multiple zerg channels with different TIL req, so you can join the one which is suitable for yours.

Arpen is not a fix for afkers, what happen is that you won't have much healers and tanks if you gate it that way. How many DC do you see have 40% arpen if they aren't dps build? How many OPs (again non dps build)? Neither will the teleportion be a fix since it can be easily bypassed, unfortunately. (PvP Afking anyone?)

I would suggest gating it behind a 2.5k TIL like edemo. That should provide it with a decent amount of players who aren't interested in afking. Since it's harder to get a 2.5k TIL than a 1.8k (Which is almost popping in all ench slots plus blues).

Another solution is also stated by @ghoulz66, which is let the reward be of use to higher TIL players OR update it so that the reward is in sync with the current module. I have to say myself included, haven't been running much Tiamat lately due to lack of incentive.

Immediate solution for those who have problems atm could be:

• Join a Zerg Channel
  
• Run tiamat on 100% instead of other times
  
• Do tiamat at EU afternoon/evening times (Higher amount of players online) or weekends
  
• Avoid instance 1 and the last instance
  
• Follow a well-geared player (when they go in you go in) - this one isn't that good and I don't advocate it but it's the last resort if you really are desperate
  

Suggestions to keep in mind:

• Gear up a bit if you aren't 2.5kish before heading to tiamat. This is pointed at no one specific, just in general. No one likes being free loaded, if you don't want 1.8ks in there yourself, don't do the same thing to others.
  
• And.. READ CHAT IN TIAMAT
  
• Also check out some Tiamat guides if you don't know how to do it:
  1. http://www.ddmsrealm.com/neverwinter-rpg-guides/defeating-tiamat-player-guide-walkthrough/
     
  2. http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/552583/tiamat-for-beginners-zerg-simple-tactic-and-some-tips-to-increase-win-rate
     

zibadawa

If you move the ilvl gate up to 2.5k then you basically make Tiamat even more pointless. About the 2.5k point is the point where you've won the solo PvE game and these last few boons are irrelevant to that. They're just e-peen extensions. Even for PvP getting the last two boons is a pretty marginal gain. And if you're going balls-to-the-wall then you're probably willing to open up the wallet and get coffers on the AH, so why even bother with Tiamat?

The one and only proper fix is to do one or more of the following (basically equivalent) things:

1. Drastically reduce the number of favors needed for the boons
   
2. Increase the number of favors dropped and give more methods to get them
   
3. Make favors tradeable on the AH.
   

Then do whatever you want with Tiamat. Raise the gate, give her better rewards with end-game possibilities, nerf the rewards on failure, add an arpen gate, make her easier, etc.

The fundamental issue is tying boon progress into so many completions of the encounter. Remove that and the problems will vanish.

wylonus

i just went in, for curious reasons, i hadnt been there since june.
only 7 players show up, well, i decided to stay until the end to see what happen.

geez, oh wow, Devs, ARE YOU FREAKING NUTS?, no one was able to handle legion devils, i had one on me, and it blink so fast that i was unable to defend or able to hit, 2 hits and i went down, with my GF 2.5k item base/7.5k power, i was able to hit few non-blinking devils or slow blinkers, but these Legion are overpower and way toooooooo fast, rapid blinking like i never saw before, not as i had seen in last june.

all they do is hit and blink and repeat like a "perfect script" without cooldowns on blinkings, very difficult to hit them. tried to kick with interruptions to stop them and to keep them where we need, but no way, they are really "Super-fast".

Tiamat zone is actually dying zone, and it cost me 15 health kits in a single run, no wonder why it is still Unprofitable to most players, it bleed you going broke fast.
at the end, we failed and i got few refine stones and a bag of hoard coins of 40. man, i would spit my sinus infected mucus and let them know i am still unhappy.

i have not seen any fix yet, and all i see was a "ninja-sneak beef up" for legion, they are not really tone down or either they are broken and overpower. to me, that is a dirty cheat.

devs, you need to do, very fast for last 2 boons, it is overpriced and unrealisic as a game that was meant to be fun to play and to explore.

asterotg

Even when it was endcontent, there were 6-10 players doing up to 80% of thr dmg, according to ACT. At that time the average gear of the players was better, even if you take the new weapons boons etc. into account.

There were dozends of pages regarding low IL players complaining about BIS players excluding them and low IL players getting callled 'leechers'.

The thing is, that this dungeon and EDemo are just difficult, bc they cant generate 10 ppl or 25 ppl ques.

zibadawa

wylonus said:

i just went in, for curious reasons, i hadnt been there since june.
only 7 players show up, well, i decided to stay until the end to see what happen.

geez, oh wow, Devs, ARE YOU FREAKING NUTS?, no one was able to handle legion devils, i had one on me, and it blink so fast that i was unable to defend or able to hit, 2 hits and i went down, with my GF 2.5k item base/7.5k power, i was able to hit few non-blinking devils or slow blinkers, but these Legion are overpower and way toooooooo fast, rapid blinking like i never saw before, not as i had seen in last june.

all they do is hit and blink and repeat like a "perfect script" without cooldowns on blinkings, very difficult to hit them. tried to kick with interruptions to stop them and to keep them where we need, but no way, they are really "Super-fast".

Tiamat zone is actually dying zone, and it cost me 15 health kits in a single run, no wonder why it is still Unprofitable to most players, it bleed you going broke fast.
at the end, we failed and i got few refine stones and a bag of hoard coins of 40. man, i would spit my sinus infected mucus and let them know i am still unhappy.

i have not seen any fix yet, and all i see was a "ninja-sneak beef up" for legion, they are not really tone down or either they are broken and overpower. to me, that is a dirty cheat.

devs, you need to do, very fast for last 2 boons, it is overpriced and unrealisic as a game that was meant to be fun to play and to explore.

Try going in there when the hoard isn't at 0% (more like 100%) and there's an actual compliment of 20+ people. You still might fail miserably due to afk'ers and the clueless weaklings, but it's a different beast. Right now you're basically complaining "OMG I went into endgame content completely naked with a level 1 character and I got rekt! WTF DEVS?" I sincerely hope you see the problem with this.

asthazarf

You won't fix afk-ers with ArmPen, iLvl or having folks read chat.

You can have afk-ers with high ArmPen, high iLvl, no English skills.

I suggest score/minute, calculated in such a way that genuine low(ish) scores don't pass by as afk.

Fail to meet the score/minute quota and you're kicked and banned for the day, maybe?

klangeddin

The problems with Tiamat are more than one:

1) Rewards are poor and most of them are not exclusive (maybe there's one artifact? Or can that be obtained elsewhere too?). You can get Linu's Favor indirectly from the Auction House, and it's probably more time-effective to do so nowadays (though I haven't checked the prices recently, they weren't that high last tie I did, it costed about 2 millions for 80 linus, so almost affordable). And even so, those boons are a very marginal upgrade probably not even worth spending the time or the AD to afford them.

2) The access mechanics are poor. You can't get in there with a coordinated full raid and this is exacerbated by the fact that it's content for a 25 man raid, the largest in the game. You have no defense against AFKers, Griefers, offliners, people who speak different languages, people who refuse to coordinate or listen or people who simply don't meet the standards to contribute meaningfully to the fight (because of design flaws).

3) The fight design is poor. It's only a dps race, nothing else matters. This means that Item Level is not even an effective tool to decide who should get in or not. Offensive stats like power, crit, armor penetration would all be better indicators. Not to mention that this is particularly unfair to certain specs of crowd controllers, healers and tanks that want to be dedicated in their non-dps role, but really cannot contribute in any meaningful manner to the fight.

This content needs a overhaul, just a "nerf" won't do because some of these problems would persist and it would still generally be a waste of time to run it. Your time can be better spent elsewhere.

silverkelt

THE only thing that will stop AFK is to put a loosing instance as = zero reward.

The only way to get more people at random wins that enter that do not have knowledge of thier class is to increase I level or ARP or some other entry.

I dont care.. personally do what you want.. I do random ones with my guild now and then.. for fun.. thats it.

As long as you can get linus another way, im ok not going back into tiamat.. already did it 5-600 times .. I think I have my fill of it.

wylonus

i went in when it was 100% for several hours before reset.

so i went again last saturday, i see same problems after we got 2 heads nearly down, and then some left or switch zones, so i think "geez!, that wasnt so bad for 2 heads on 1st round", last i remember last may, we were on 60 lvl gears, less legion devils, since mod 6, mobs got seriously upgraded and still one shotted anyone who at the heads, and i just saw legions just wipe entire group at red head during 2nd round with one shots.

it was because some just left current zone and whoever still in there get overwhelmed by legion devils, and impossible to run to the heads while devils still make you in combat mode and unable to run or summon the mound when the clerics has 100% beam and SHOULD BANNISH the devils until next rounds, devs wont do that.

with 70 lvl tier two gears, something still wrong.
it isnt easy to check each players zone in and see what they wearing or what enchants every time we go in. devs created "Baseline" for requiremnts, and just my opinion, the devs are lazy or they lied to players.