The Paladin and game mechanics Module 6-8.

defiantone99

I feel as though the whole game was reworked with module 6 to require the Paladin in every party. It seems as though lifesteal, regen, and game difficulty were all changed to create a niche for the Paladin. This really needs to be reversed. Each class should have its own strengths and survivability mechanics. Going into any situation without Divine Protector on you is a matter of life and death. Lifesteal needs to be restored to Module 5 status. Regeneration needs to be made to work in combat again, we get so much gear with it, yet it does not really exist. Why not just label them as Incoming Healing now? Out-of-combat regen is not really needed, that is what potions are for. The Paladin absorbs way too much damage, yet the damage from enemies is often too great to not have a Paladin at your side with Perma-Bubble. There needs to be a whole rework of difficulty, damage mitigation, and healing in the game.

kisakee

Actually game is way to easy, should be harder. You don't need a paladin, there's no single situation you can't replace it with some other class. Lifesteal and regeneration is fine how it is, no rework needed. If you don't agree with all that, you are not even close best in slot. And to make things clear: You can manage all dungeons with around 2,5k item level. Smart tip - Don't go with randoms.

EDIT: This is no troll posting, it's the real situation. Some day when you're some kind of high end you'll gasp for a challenge, today it's non existing.

gwalaploth

The entire rework requiring tons of hit points to survive took all the real variety out of the game. Before that there were a variety of different builds that could be viable but not so much any more. As far as a score of 2500 being all you need, maybe yes if you run with a bunch of people all handcrafted for the group and on superfast computers but for normal people on your normal computer it just will not work.

kisakee

If you can't handle your hands, celebrating lag parties in dungeons and don't know anyone of your PUG - sure, 2,5k maybe isn't enough. But if you grab your guild, got some (even small amount of) skill and gaming with normal latency, it will do.

kemnimtarkas

gwalaploth said:

... As far as a score of 2500 being all you need, maybe yes if you run with a bunch of people all handcrafted for the group and on superfast computers but for normal people on your normal computer it just will not work.

I agree with this. The T2 epics include 1 shot kill abilities on trash mobs for most non-OP class types, even GFs and GWFs who aren't prepared. I've been in non-OP teams that survived - but it wasn't easy, and more than a few of us had to burn life scrolls to make the dungeon successful. Even with an OP present it is possible, like with the Scorpions in ELOL, to get wiped, repeatedly.

Life steal works, but it only really helps in epics if you have a maxed out set (level 10 gems or above), plus artifacts and boons from different adventure zones that work to add to the efficiency of the stat.

kiraskytower

kemnimtarkas said:

I agree with this. The T2 epics include 1 shot kill abilities on trash mobs for most non-OP class types, even GFs and GWFs who aren't prepared. I've been in non-OP teams that survived - but it wasn't easy, and more than a few of us had to burn life scrolls to make the dungeon successful. Even with an OP present it is possible, like with the Scorpions in ELOL, to get wiped, repeatedly.

Actually the mod 6 rework of the game (and dungeons in particular) WAS meant to make some classes essential. Not specifically the OP ... but the game was reworked to make Tanks (OP/GF) and healers (OP/DC) pretty much required in any party. Why? For many of the reasons pointed out in this thread. Back in Mod 5 you didn't need anything but CWs and GWFs for a dungeon. I remember sitting in PE watching people advertise things like "LF4M CWs for eLoL". One of the nicest things about Mod 6-8 is that there is actually a need for people to play GFs and DCs again, as opposed to these characters being unwelcome in parties for not having enough DPS.

I'll grant that as far as tanking or healing goes, the appropriate paragon OP does it far more easily than a GF or DC. The "permabubble" makes tier2s laughably easy and all a devotion OP needs to do to keep a party healed fully is activate bond and then just spam the at-will cure wounds. The OP is kind of the "easy mode" for healing or tanking. That doesn't mean you can't run eLoL or eToS or even eCC legit with a GF and DC as tank/healer. You can and we do often.

thefabricant

All of you complaining about this game being too difficult have no concept of difficulty, you were nurtured, fed and babysat on mod 5 and aren't used to real content difficulty (which btw, isn't even this content, this content is still sadly easy.) The game should be made more difficult, not less difficult, no game developer should cater to the lowest common denominator.

Paladins are not necessary, you can clear all the t1's without them with a 1.6k ilvl group and all the t2's without them with a 2k ilvl group. This is obviously provided that the group knows what they doing and can actually play their character. You want to complain about build diversity, you can do it without asking for the game to be made exceptionally boring. At the start of mod 6, I did all the dungeons with bad gear, only judt pushing over the ilvl requirement with groups of people who were the same. If we could do it, you can as well.

Paladins should also be brought in line with either gf's and dc's (depending on paragon) because atm, they are out of whack.

lantern22

For the love of God, don't make the game any easier. Mod 6 was interesting. In Mod 5 you got kicked for being a tank and not DPS, its was nearly impossible to team up cause you weren't needed.

As for eLOL being hard without a paladin ???. My 2.8K GF can tank that easily without a DC. Cripes, there are probably plenty of GWF that can tank that now.

This game seriously needs harder content, but it needs content that progressively gets harder so players can progress (either through IL or skill).

That doesn't mean changing the difficulty of the current content, but means bringing in new (or the reworked older dungeons) that are much more difficult and a challenge for high end players. If this means that only half the player base can run them, so be it. Nearly everything new should be aimed for 3K+ iL players and should go back to the difficulty level that was there in Mod 6 plus some extra nastiness for good measure.

L

zachwho

Agreed the game is too easy. This is exactly why I'm shelving my prot pally, and I'll only be playing my GF. I will literally fall asleep playing the pally. It's the most insanely un balanced class I have ever seen.

Never has there been a class that actually makes the entire gaming population around it WORSE at the game.

Please fix the pally. Make better dungeons. Give us more content than heroic encounters. Quit being lazy.

clericalist

I would have no problem with bringing back life steal as it was before mod 6 (and I say this with a DC as my main). It was stated that any party combination should be able to finish any content, and I agree with that idea. A PUG party with of any combination with 2K IL rating should be able to complete any dungeon with a reasonable chance (say 25%-50%).

Having said that, they should provide some mechanisms to be able to convert non DPS classes support features into DPS if they want it. For example a cleric could have the option to convert healing into damage or the GF could convert threat generation into damage, because lets face it gear and power inflation will turn things back to mod 5. Besides the inflation, there those race against time encounters like Tiamat and Demogorgon where DPS is really all that matters in the end, imagine if a DC could turn all those pointless over heals into something useful there.

As for those that lament that the game is always so easy, for those that have maxed out everything gear, when the game is just about DPS then you will always have this "problem". What they could do it introduce content which makes it truly hard, things like "escort the player" come in mind, where no matter high your DPS is, you need to have support classes that can keep them alive from constant unavoidable incoming damage. They could also introduce paper, rock, scissors concepts where some enemies are immune to certain damage and it forces certain class combinations. The trick with these ideas is where they should appear, they should not be for main dungeon runs or all HE's, perhaps they could feature in side quests in dungeons and in specific HE's that are not essential to finishing ones boons. They could perhaps allow for people to create innovative foundry quests with real rewards for those players that complain about everything being too easy.

kemi1984

zachwho said:

Agreed the game is too easy. This is exactly why I'm shelving my prot pally, and I'll only be playing my GF. I will literally fall asleep playing the pally. It's the most insanely un balanced class I have ever seen.



Never has there been a class that actually makes the entire gaming population around it WORSE at the game.



Please fix the pally. Make better dungeons. Give us more content than heroic encounters. Quit being lazy.

And this comes from a pally player. 100% agreed, this class (especially the bubble type - yuck!) is making each player WORSE each run they're doing. Why do you need any skill, bah! why would you even need any gear?? when you're just permanently immortal?

Divine Protector up! strip your chars and whack the dragons with your bare hands - this is pathetic.

I urge anyone saying that pally is needed to take a look how you play on perma bubble (been there, done it) I don't need to block, none need to dodge, you stand in red and yawn all the time - it that's someones definition of fun? rock on!

But one has to be aware that after pally is fixed (the process was already started) we will have another ocean of tears how the game is hard. Suddenly you're taking damage nooooooo!!! you have to dodge, you have to time your skills - wow, just wow.

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clericalist

arcofortep12 said:

I agree with OP, this game became OP centered and it's unforgiving for some builds

Bit off topic, but they clearly used the wrong words for Paladin, OP can stand for all of the following:
Oathbound Paladin
Opening Post
Over Powered

They should have called it Holy Paladin, or anything not starting with an O.

suicidalgodot

clericalist said:

[...] they should provide some mechanisms to be able to convert non DPS classes support features into DPS if they want it. For example a cleric could have the option to convert healing into damage or the GF could convert threat generation into damage, [...]

LOLwut?

Honestly: You want more DPS, play one of the five DPS classes (and a half if you count outgeared DPS-focused DCs, who actually can do quite some DPS at high ILvls...). Alternatively, you can help less well-geared chars during their gearing up dungeoneering phase etc.

Yes, thanks to removal of the diminishing returns for stat-effect-curves, the power balance is totally off. Yes, the game has become boring. But that idea is somewhat...

...why have diferent classes at all*? Next thing you're asking will probably be to allow DPS classes to convert their damage into some support, like healing or threat generation...


* Actually, one of my fav MMOs, the Secret World, uses exactly that: A classless approach, where you can switch between all unlocked skills at the drop of a hat with four instantly interchangeable presets that even include a gear change. And hence fill all the roles with your one char once you've powered them up enough...

...but this isn't the D&D model. RuneQuest and Call of Cthulhu had that, and to some extent RoleMaster but AD&D? Unheard of...

clericalist

suicidalgodot said:

clericalist said:

[...] they should provide some mechanisms to be able to convert non DPS classes support features into DPS if they want it. For example a cleric could have the option to convert healing into damage or the GF could convert threat generation into damage, [...]

LOLwut?

Honestly: You want more DPS, play one of the five DPS classes (and a half if you count outgeared DPS-focused DCs, who actually can do quite some DPS at high ILvls...). Alternatively, you can help less well-geared chars during their gearing up dungeoneering phase etc.

Yes, thanks to removal of the diminishing returns for stat-effect-curves, the power balance is totally off. Yes, the game has become boring. But that idea is somewhat...

...why have diferent classes at all*? Next thing you're asking will probably be to allow DPS classes to convert their damage into some support, like healing or threat generation...


* Actually, one of my fav MMOs, the Secret World, uses exactly that: A classless approach, where you can switch between all unlocked skills at the drop of a hat with four instantly interchangeable presets that even include a gear change. And hence fill all the roles with your one char once you've powered them up enough...

...but this isn't the D&D model. RuneQuest and Call of Cthulhu had that, and to some extent RoleMaster but AD&D? Unheard of...

Did you read the rest of what I wrote, Tiamat and Demogorgon are DPS tests, and ultimately DPS will always far surpass anything else in importance, and that is a bit like Secret Class everyone must be provide with equal DPS. If that does not happen then all the support classes basically end up the water boys to the uber classes, we are just there as nice to haves.

silverkelt

Naw.. taimat and epic demo, should have at least 1 tank/1healer combo for both.

Tiamat because you really.. want those buffs.
Epic Demo, to kite first boss and you will want a healer. A AC/DC is awesome in epic demo.. casting AA during sanity phase, will save the entire group over and over.

The only ACTUAL content that makes it WORSE to take a healer or tank is PoM.. pom is the most horrendous skirm in the game, terrible design, really longish and just overall, the most un-fun thing in the game. But of course we have to run it to try to get freezies and books. (the actual BEST set up group there is probably 3 gwfs, 2 trs) but its not that YOU cant do it, but by taking 2 utility can actually screw you. Its the worst set up in the game, ACTUALLY making teamwork less efficient then other parts of the game. There is no defense of that.

IT should be tinkered with asap, to make it a bit more un-boring.

subnocte

The dungeons should need a healer and tank really. The game's a fairly standard theme park MMO and is built around that. OPs are too powerful of course, a well geared OP can easily act as both healer and tank, provide huge party buffs, and do a lot of damage on top.

Since we're not getting any new decent content, gear has long since left the content behind, meaning people can solo T2s. That shouldn't be possible.

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suicidalgodot

Amazing how fast this thread has devolved from "OP is OP" to "L2P <-> Elitist!"-bashfest...

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santralafax

kiraskytower said:

Actually the mod 6 rework of the game (and dungeons in particular) WAS meant to make some classes essential. Not specifically the OP

I switched from GF to GWF by Mod 7 because people would groan when they realized the tank was not an OP. Got tired of it. Levelling and gearing my GF from Mod 6 on became some kind of waste.

santralafax

silverkelt said:

The only ACTUAL content that makes it WORSE to take a healer or tank is PoM.. pom is the most horrendous skirm in the game, terrible design, really longish and just overall, the most un-fun thing in the game. But of course we have to run it to try to get freezies and books. (the actual BEST set up group there is probably 3 gwfs, 2 trs)

Aww... I somehow bet 5 GWFs could do it without TR support. Just sayin'

jaegernl

santralafax said:

kiraskytower said:

Actually the mod 6 rework of the game (and dungeons in particular) WAS meant to make some classes essential. Not specifically the OP

I switched from GF to GWF by Mod 7 because people would groan when they realized the tank was not an OP. Got tired of it. Levelling and gearing my GF from Mod 6 on became some kind of waste.

Don't listen to the idiots. A GF is a far more valuable asset to the team once people get a little more gear. ITF/Tide of Iron alone would make me pick a GF over an OBP any day.

lantern22

arcofortep12 said:

Everyone always talking about gaming with BiS players. The REALITY is that there are people pugging with 2k equipment or no boons in T2 dungeons so no, LS do not work.

I don't care the least for BiS players since they are so very few. They should not be taken in consideration.

I agree with OP, this game became OP centered and it's unforgiving for some builds.

Paladin need to be nerfed and everything else need to be tweaked down accordingly instead of buffing everyone.

We aren't talking about BIS players, we are talking about players that are getting towards 3K and everything is too easy. There are plenty of those players and at some stage they were all developing "pugs" who have now run out of decent stuff to do.

"Pugs" have ample content . . . .

Levels 0-60
Dread Ring
Sharandar
IWD
90% of WOD (except the mini dungeons and Tiamat)
90% of SH

What does that leave for decent geared players that want a challenge - eCC legit ?

How much more trash content does the game need? imo - None

Why can't ppl go get some of the boons and gear up a little before they run T2s?

As for ppl talking about being able to do dungeons without a tank or healer - that's what Mod 5 was like and if you had a tank or healer it was - stfu we only want DPS

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bkt5789

I think clerics and guardian fights should be buffed to the paladin level.