@magenubbie They'll make far more money with happy customers. I honestly don't think "wallet warriors" are all that big of a piece of the pie. I think PvPers spend money on the game, but the idea that you have substantially income be driven by people who immediately swipe their credit card to be BiS for PvP, I don't buy it.
But that being said, if you look at almost all of the negative feedback outside of this forum when the topic of Neverwinter comes up, 90%+ of it includes the undercurrent of "pay to win" PvP. So that sour reputation alone is damaging the Neverwinter brand, and preventing more players from picking up and playing, regardless of their preference for PvP or PvE.
If you can eliminate that, the halo effect on the rest of the brand would be immense.
You know my saying. "Playing customers are paying customers."
The week of the Module 6 launch, I saw PVP players with FULL Rank 12s, 4 Mythics, AND full Elemental Burning set. Instant 4k IL. They do pay, or....
All of it was pre-farmed in anticipation of Module 6.
A real matchmaking based on Itemlevel first and Character level second might be possible. But i have my doubts, that the person(s) in charge is/are even willing to make room for even such a small change between pushing new modules onto the game.
To be clear, there's not enough people playing PvP for such a system to work. They tried it, and it ended up keeping people in a queue for over an hour to find good match ups. So the requirements were loosened so the queue actually popped.
What you're seeing is premades of BiS PvPers continuing to queue up for rofflestomps, while most lower or poorly geared people queue up solo. Hence the poorly geared people end up together, and the BiS premades rule the day.
An interim solution might be to just disable group queuing for PvP.
But a total overhaul is needed if PvP even has the hope of being successful...and what I described above isn't all that complicated, nor does it really require any new assets. Just re-statting of the PvP gear, and adjustments on the PvP artifacts. I know the dual-spec thing might be more complicated, but it's not exactly necessary for this to work.
The top geared people ranting because the queues are too long is not a reason not to fix the game. The people being stomped on and losing every single match don't care about having to wait if it means a decent match; the top geared people are pretty much guaranteed to win every single match, so of course they don't want to wait for an hour.
I've said it before and I haven't changed my mind: fixing the system will mean longer queues until it feeds through to the lower geared people and they feel there's a point to playing PVP in this game again. It will take some time, there's no way around that as it's so broken.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
Which is exactly why you have to completely overhaul the system, imho. Remove PvE gear, Artifact gear, enchantments, and flatten the PvP gear curve.
Which is exactly why you have to completely overhaul the system, imho. Remove PvE gear, Artifact gear, enchantments, and flatten the PvP gear curve.
I don't disagree. The gear gap has got too wide to make PVP workable, right now it only suits high geared vs high geared, and I know that some of the decent members of PVP guilds do sync queues to play against each other, where queue times aren't an issue.
A real matchmaking based on Itemlevel first and Character level second might be possible. But i have my doubts, that the person(s) in charge is/are even willing to make room for even such a small change between pushing new modules onto the game.
To be clear, there's not enough people playing PvP for such a system to work. They tried it, and it ended up keeping people in a queue for over an hour to find good match ups. So the requirements were loosened so the queue actually popped. [...]
Oh, but you could pass the choice to the player!
Make a simple popup dialog box open on queueing for PvP:
------------------- [ ] - Fast matchmaking (first open slot will be used) [ ] - Stringent ILvl matching (longer waiting time) ------------------- [ ] - Premades not allowed (longer waiting time) [ ] - Premades allowed (medium waiting time) [ ] - Premades only (please queue with a team of five players) -------------------
Should really pose little challenge to implement.
While initially the queues might take hours to resolve, people will see the effects, and pass the news. Then quite a lot of people _will_ return to PvP, if only to gather their Conqueror Shards, which will then cause the population to rise, and hence shorten the waiting time.
...just somewhere someone in C's HQ would have to take a step of faith, waste that workforce-day of hacking that code, and try it out. Maybe on a short-ish (1-2 weeks e.g.) event. Basically, it should work - matchmaking went a lot smoother in the NCL days...
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
You'd have to disable gear swapping while in the queue or in the match. Even then, it's only a bandaid. It doesn't fix that fact that there's such enormous disparity in power caused by gear.
You'd have to disable gear swapping while in the queue or in the match. Even then, it's only a bandaid. It doesn't fix that fact that there's such enormous disparity in power caused by gear.
...but it wouldn't take that driving force - accumulation of better gear - from the PvP-centric part of the cetacean school that keeps the servers up and the lights on, which your concept would nullify, and which would make the COA a sad panda, probably...
Re. Gear swapping: Swap and drop (from Q, after a warning confirmation dialog) or on-launch reset to gear on queueing would be viable options. That would, however, preclude enchantment changes, so, admittedly, there would be some cascading technical issues.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
I don't believe that they garner a significant amount of revenue from wallet warriors, if that's what you're implying.
Also, there is gear progression. New gear after every season. The only difference is it's earned through play, and the ultimate gap between the fresh and the best is much smaller.
My short term solution - you can either queue solo or as a 5 person premade, nothing in between. Neither type is matched against the other, under any circumstances. PVP guilds can fight each other, pugs can fight each other.
It'd mean longer queues, but to the massive benefit of lower geared players, with no change to pvp guilds who want to fight as premades. The only people who'd lose out would be the ones who want the stomping matches that are finished in 30 seconds.
After a while I am certain that newer players would be more drawn to pvp, seeing that they actually have a chance to win, and not be wiped out every time they leave camp by people in 4K gear jumping up and down while they one shot them. And once more people are playing, then look at events and ways to make it better long term.
You'd have to disable gear swapping while in the queue or in the match. Even then, it's only a bandaid. It doesn't fix that fact that there's such enormous disparity in power caused by gear.
As mentioned before, they could implement a "hidden" Itemlevel, that counts the equipment into it, that you allready have/use... so the players could swap their items all day long, it would still not effect the queue.
personally, for me pvp got ruined the moment they added pvp gear and the tenacity stat. Before that I actually enjoyed pvp even though Im not a big fan of pvp. Before that, basically that top geared players were all running around in CN gear which wasn't too hard to get since it was sold on the AH. So basically the only thing that really made someone over powered was enchants and maybe a pvp specific build.
But since the addition of pvp gear and the tenacity stat, running in with pve gear is suicide. Than add in all the other power creep in the game and it just becomes insane.
Either the devs should remove pvp gear or make it equal to pve gear. Remove the stupid tenacity stat. And then all you'd have to do is make the balance the classes and the que system.
that or just make everyone spawn in naked with set stats and make em slap box.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
Another problem is the new stat curves at level 70. Prior to the changes, diminishing returns ensured that the gap between gear level and actual effectiveness did diminish. A 12k GS player wasn't that much stronger than a 10k. An 18k GS wasn't that much stronger than a 15k GS. And above 20k GS, most people were far enough into diminishing returns, that was about the point in which things leveled of.
Now a 4k iLevel player is roughly twice, if not more, as strong in every category as a 2k iLevel player. Way more damage, way more health and way more defense. There's simply no chance for even slightly less geared players to keep up.
Well, the question is, what the persons in charge think about PvP at the moment, and if there are even any plans on improving it. From there we might have something to talk about.
I do believe in killing the messenger...
Want to know why?
Because it sends a message!
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
I think the relevant question is how to flatten the massive curve we have now, and yes I think its a issue as well, without devaluing unique builds and set ups.
Im not sure if I like the total remove of enchant process, as it adds a layer of uniqueness to the queue system (OMG, dude has lifedrinker driving me nuts, or frost or whatever ect)
I do agree that back in mods 1-2, it was much easier and convenient to play pvp (even when profound was introduced.. it was achievable by everyone eventually and with a profound set, a greater weapon enchant, some r8s and a blood cyrstal raven and a soulforge.. everyone was pretty much on par, so it was left up to skill, teamwork ect. Having that set up vs someone with r10s in the slots wasnt that much different. This started in mod 4.. with artifact gear and has just increased since then (dual slots.. more power, more dps, more defense ect) then they increased items to trans and r12 ect..
The problem as it lays out now.. is not only do you have massive power creep, you also have massive pet companion creep outside of gg and domination and now massive mount creep.
All of those of course are being sold to make some money out of pvp.. So why would cryptic make it less gear heavy? I dont see a reason for them to..
I think we ALL would like a option of Legendary queue and Standard.
Maybe take a flatter curve approach in standard, give same rewards as it does now. Do not allow pet actives, mount actives, and figure out how to balance this 2k vs 4k approach and DO not allow a 5 man premade to queue.. solo only.
Legendary is totally open.. allow everything, even pets in all modes, allow premades. Double the rewards for legendary.. so a win there would = a new 6k standard of AD ect.. even banners and seals. Allow only the top 20% average of I levels in , adjust the I level every 4 weeks.. ( Im sure they can review thier "data's" for that. )
IT would A.. allow us to gear up alts and play with them at any level.. and B.. have something new to shoot for, also lumps in all the top end players together, if they so choose to go. But if they queue for standard.. no active pet bonus, no mount bonus, and then a curve of massive diminishing returns happen (say avg queue for standard is 2.5 i level.. your stat bonuses will be dropped down to the new weighted curve)
I dont know if it would work, but I dont see cryptic doing anything as long as people buy stuff from thier store for PVP..
The wallet warrior thing is a bit of a myth. You will find that most of the top tier players got most of their gear from unlimited AD stockpiles they accrued either thru CN Glory Days grinding and selling (doubt much of this bounty could remain now though), Playing the ZAX/AH meta, or most commonly flat out exploiting the game. Most of them don't give Cryptic a red cent. Cryptic should care less if they "rage quit" because the playing field gets leveled. The exploiters got away with a slap on the wrist because Cryptic didn't have the tools to prove they were cheating even if they knew it for a fact.
PVP is completely broken and because it's mostly only played by players that Cryptic wants to go away, it will not get any love. Ever. All Cryptic does is toss more fuel on the fire and widen the gear gap. It's sad that their disdain for the BiS PVP crowd will prevent any meaningful changes from ever coming to the game. Pretty sure they would cut the feature entirely if it wasn't the only persistent end game content for folks who just can't stomach a single 'nother HE or eTOS.
The simple fact of the matter is Cryptic doesn't care the pvp is broken. They have no plans or intentions of doing a damn thing about it. So they chase away newer players (like me) because it's absolutely impossible to gain the glory and seals you need to acquire pvp gear.
The topic has been raised how many times in the past, and still continues to fall upon deaf ears. All the good ideas to fix what is clearly completely broken, mean nothing. You can't change the fact Cryptic doesn't care.
Comments
I've said it before and I haven't changed my mind: fixing the system will mean longer queues until it feeds through to the lower geared people and they feel there's a point to playing PVP in this game again. It will take some time, there's no way around that as it's so broken.
Make a simple popup dialog box open on queueing for PvP:
-------------------
[ ] - Fast matchmaking (first open slot will be used)
[ ] - Stringent ILvl matching (longer waiting time)
-------------------
[ ] - Premades not allowed (longer waiting time)
[ ] - Premades allowed (medium waiting time)
[ ] - Premades only (please queue with a team of five players)
-------------------
Should really pose little challenge to implement.
While initially the queues might take hours to resolve, people will see the effects, and pass the news. Then quite a lot of people _will_ return to PvP, if only to gather their Conqueror Shards, which will then cause the population to rise, and hence shorten the waiting time.
...just somewhere someone in C's HQ would have to take a step of faith, waste that workforce-day of hacking that code, and try it out. Maybe on a short-ish (1-2 weeks e.g.) event. Basically, it should work - matchmaking went a lot smoother in the NCL days...
Re. Gear swapping: Swap and drop (from Q, after a warning confirmation dialog) or on-launch reset to gear on queueing would be viable options. That would, however, preclude enchantment changes, so, admittedly, there would be some cascading technical issues.
Also, there is gear progression. New gear after every season. The only difference is it's earned through play, and the ultimate gap between the fresh and the best is much smaller.
It'd mean longer queues, but to the massive benefit of lower geared players, with no change to pvp guilds who want to fight as premades. The only people who'd lose out would be the ones who want the stomping matches that are finished in 30 seconds.
After a while I am certain that newer players would be more drawn to pvp, seeing that they actually have a chance to win, and not be wiped out every time they leave camp by people in 4K gear jumping up and down while they one shot them. And once more people are playing, then look at events and ways to make it better long term.
But since the addition of pvp gear and the tenacity stat, running in with pve gear is suicide. Than add in all the other power creep in the game and it just becomes insane.
Either the devs should remove pvp gear or make it equal to pve gear. Remove the stupid tenacity stat. And then all you'd have to do is make the balance the classes and the que system.
that or just make everyone spawn in naked with set stats and make em slap box.
Now a 4k iLevel player is roughly twice, if not more, as strong in every category as a 2k iLevel player. Way more damage, way more health and way more defense. There's simply no chance for even slightly less geared players to keep up.
Im not sure if I like the total remove of enchant process, as it adds a layer of uniqueness to the queue system (OMG, dude has lifedrinker driving me nuts, or frost or whatever ect)
I do agree that back in mods 1-2, it was much easier and convenient to play pvp (even when profound was introduced.. it was achievable by everyone eventually and with a profound set, a greater weapon enchant, some r8s and a blood cyrstal raven and a soulforge.. everyone was pretty much on par, so it was left up to skill, teamwork ect. Having that set up vs someone with r10s in the slots wasnt that much different. This started in mod 4.. with artifact gear and has just increased since then (dual slots.. more power, more dps, more defense ect) then they increased items to trans and r12 ect..
The problem as it lays out now.. is not only do you have massive power creep, you also have massive pet companion creep outside of gg and domination and now massive mount creep.
All of those of course are being sold to make some money out of pvp.. So why would cryptic make it less gear heavy? I dont see a reason for them to..
I think we ALL would like a option of Legendary queue and Standard.
Maybe take a flatter curve approach in standard, give same rewards as it does now. Do not allow pet actives, mount actives, and figure out how to balance this 2k vs 4k approach and DO not allow a 5 man premade to queue.. solo only.
Legendary is totally open.. allow everything, even pets in all modes, allow premades. Double the rewards for legendary.. so a win there would = a new 6k standard of AD ect.. even banners and seals. Allow only the top 20% average of I levels in , adjust the I level every 4 weeks.. ( Im sure they can review thier "data's" for that. )
IT would A.. allow us to gear up alts and play with them at any level.. and B.. have something new to shoot for, also lumps in all the top end players together, if they so choose to go. But if they queue for standard.. no active pet bonus, no mount bonus, and then a curve of massive diminishing returns happen (say avg queue for standard is 2.5 i level.. your stat bonuses will be dropped down to the new weighted curve)
I dont know if it would work, but I dont see cryptic doing anything as long as people buy stuff from thier store for PVP..
PVP is completely broken and because it's mostly only played by players that Cryptic wants to go away, it will not get any love. Ever. All Cryptic does is toss more fuel on the fire and widen the gear gap. It's sad that their disdain for the BiS PVP crowd will prevent any meaningful changes from ever coming to the game. Pretty sure they would cut the feature entirely if it wasn't the only persistent end game content for folks who just can't stomach a single 'nother HE or eTOS.
The topic has been raised how many times in the past, and still continues to fall upon deaf ears. All the good ideas to fix what is clearly completely broken, mean nothing. You can't change the fact Cryptic doesn't care.