Nope it's not all fine. Your ideas are way worse than the "increase efficiency/ decrease self buffs" ones. And i explained you why. GWF now is low efficiency-very high attack power. You want to make it even lower efficiency while keeping the insane amounts of self buffs, just making them "harder to keep up" (decrease efficiency), which would literally destroy the class in PvP (considering in PvP you have 8 seconds to build 10 capstone stacks during unstoppable, while GFs/CWs/HRs/TRs burst you from start of the fight to end, at full power).
What you should ask for now is more class balance. But what you keep proposing is basically a GWF overnerf that would make the class unwanted. A couple of players already told you in another thread that they wouldn't invite a GWF in their current state, if it was not for their insane damage. Which should suggest you that, from a PvE party point of view, the class has issues. And what do you propose? Changes that do not solve the issues pointed out, and that decrease the overall destroyer path already low efficiency. You completely ignore any discussion and real suggestions to balance things and go straight for your biased and terrible theorycrafting.
We know that Destroyer crit build overall damage is currently too high. We also know that whole class base damage is the lowest of all classes (reason why devs filled it with so many self-buffs) and same goes for its combat efficiency. And we also know that eLoL set is overperforming and scaling with the 2 main features of Lazalia's build: very high crit and higest weapon damage of all classes, which means the set specifically performs better on GWF class.
Common sense of someone who knows the class and want balance would be:
fix eLoL set, which would affect GWF class more than other classes due to highest crit chance and highest weapon damage decrease overall self-buffs increase base damage by some increase combat efficiency
This would solve the problems and balance, while your suggestion would make the problems even worse. It's a non-solution, similar to devs trying to cover the class low efficiency/ poor design/ low base damage with self buffs over self buffs over self buffs.
A very simple suggestion which is like 100000000x better than yours:
- rework hidden daggers (currently 40% damage self buff) giving it 1 more charge, taking away the 40% damage self-buff and exchanging it with a 10% debuff on enemy DR (benefits whole party) - increase GWF class base damage by 20% - increase combat efficiency (faster animations, easier-to-land encounters) for PvP.
Now you have an overall 20% damage decrease (40% lost from hidden daggers rework, 20% increase from base damage buff), but a higher overall efficiency of the class which would bring it more in-line with other DPS classes. Keeping in mind that it is a full DPS class and should have DPS comparable only to full DPS classes and paths such as fury SW or stormwarden HR.
And also keeping in mind that there's other stuff to fix on other classes, not just the "nerf GWF" obsession of commanderdata. For example, make combat Hr and executioner TR the kings of single target DPS in PvE, rebalance MI-Sabo builds, buff SW/ rework them, balance Paladins and so on.
Also, about eLoL set, just FYI:
i play a GWF with T.Terror, no crit build and around 40% crit chance, and no eLoL set, and GWFs with less iLvL but eLoL set deal double my damage using the same rotation, hitting the same targets. The difference from using eLoL or using another set is huge.
You keep in mind you will all cry for a month when Sorcerer will be finally released... Prepare your pro QQ choir!
Oh and btw! All serious pvper GWF can confirm that straight dmg GWF was much better than this dmg stack buffer GWF for pvp. And you can't have both! Thats why GFs Crescendo is way higher dmg than GWFs! But I probably don't understand the class again!
stock and stone I can master, but there's a Wizard to manage here!
I'll be as short as i can and if you want to keep discussing this, open another thread and i'll be happy to do it. But not here in Laz's thread. However: Yes, you don't understand the class again. Module 3 GWF was already the stacks-building destroyer. So the "straight damage type" you talk about is module 2 GWF which was...sentinel IV and that GWF was overpowered due to immortality, not burst damage. The complaint, my dear uninformed dude, was that regeneration IV sentinels were immortal and unkitable. Not that their burst was too high. :facepalm:
What you propose would not solve the issue and would keep the old problems of the class while making it even more frustrating to play. Explanation: Right now, GWF capstone allows the GWF to build up stacks, at first group, then have them still up at next group so it can go unstoppable fast dealing damage and keep them up, staying at max damage through the whole run. If you make capstone stacks (50% damage buff overall) expire fast, this means that the GWF will need to rebuild them all at each group of mobs, and do it going unstoppable first through damage dealth (assuming you have OP-GF holding aggro, or other DPS classes that can burst at max power from the get go, unless the GWF consistently rushes always ahead to get hit first, messing up with the job of the tank or dying), then rebuild the stacks, and at high iLvLs most mobs will be dead before the GWF can have stacks up, which results in a straight 40-50% damage nerf. Balanced? So your idea nerfs the class, in reality, for 40% at least of the damage it can deal in a dungeon run (assuming the GWF can build only a small part of the stacks before all the mobs are burned down by SWs/CWs/HRs/TRs), while keeping all the issues it has now (low combat efficiency, low base damage), plus in PvP it will make it impossible to play cause on a dodging enemy you would never have stacks up, cutting the damage by 50% straight. My idea would reduce the peak damage of a GWF by a good 20% while increasing the combat efficiency and base damage, filling the old shortcomings of the class and getting rid, partially, of the terrible self-buffs system. So you would have a more balanced GWF, more efficient and with less burst at full stacks. Don't understand the sorcerer rant/ prediction. As if overnerfing GWFs would have any connection with the release of future classes. Or is it to say that old CW-era was not so bad? No way dude. It was THAT bad. Be happy that now in PE you read only pleayers looking for DPS/Healer/Tank (generic) and not a specific all-in-one class.
You keep in mind you will all cry for a month when Sorcerer will be finally released... Prepare your pro QQ choir!
... because a new broken class will be released and, after 2 modules, nerfed until just few players be able to do your paper?
anyway, that, my friends, is the total motivation behind all that posts: the point is not some class be imbalanced, the problem is that imbalanced class dont be a "generic mage". For a hypothetical sorcerer, that will be ok.
and about what pando say, my idea is dont do nothing, or work gwf to do a really crazy things if be able to manage difficult things like reaping strike, the old cancelation, etc and not the same sure strike+ibs hitting more or less hard because have a better base or x stacks. you have 3 trees to be worked in different playstyles and demands.
iam tired to that: player A test a build and share in foruns, player b just need take the necessary gear - legit? i doubt - and then, "look, is a overpowered 'bis' gwf; he dont know how to manage your sprint, but hit like a train!".
... because a new broken class will be released and, after 2 modules, nerfed until just few players be able to do your paper?
anyway, that, my friends, is the total motivation behind all that posts: the point is not some class be imbalanced, the problem is that imbalanced class dont be a "generic mage". For a hypothetical sorcerer, that will be ok.
and about what pando say, my idea is dont do nothing, or work gwf to do a really crazy things if be able to manage difficult things like reaping strike, the old cancelation, etc and not the same sure strike+ibs hitting more or less hard because have a better base or x stacks. you have 3 trees to be worked in different playstyles and demands.
iam tired to that: player A test a build and share in foruns, player b just need take the necessary gear - legit? i doubt - and then, "look, is a overpowered 'bis' gwf; he dont know how to manage your sprint, but hit like a train!".
Well, basically current GWF is like that in high level PvP: you have to put together 3 destroyer stacks that last 6 seconds+hidden dagger buff+ collect 10 stacks of capstone in 8 seconds or less, vs a dodging and kiting enemy, put all together and manage to rotate in the moment you have all stacks up. In PvE you need, as explained several times by Lazalia in his guides, to play carefully time your encounters to make sure you build up al lthe multiple self buffs, put them together and avoid wasting your potential (such as spamming hidden daggers, using IBS too soon instead of SS during unstoppable and hit IBS in the last second to get the 10% damage buff but also take advantage of the increased at-will speed, keep an eye on destroyer stacks, hidden dagger buff and capstone stacks to make sure you hit your encounters when they are all up). It's a lot of stuff you need to carefully manage all together. It's not like GWF damage comes out automatically, you need to know how to use the class or your battle power goes to waste.
If, both in PvP and PvE, you know how to play the class, you squeeze the most out of it.
But, what you see here is that it doesn't matter how "difficult" it is to put all the power together: what matters is what other players see. In GWF case, the fact that properly geared and played toons are DPS monsters.
So the better choice is to balance the maximum potential of the class and make it easier to play.
well, what a "Non gwfs see" dont make difference. for some reason that i dont know, some kind of player really hate that "barbarian archetype". you need reply just to show this: the majority of feedbacks against the class dont represent a real demand, just mimimi.
about the class itself in pve or pvp, like i said, you have 3 differents trees to be worked in differents playstyles and demands, but just one viable tree and few good powers, class features, etc.
yes, play a gwf - pve - is not "just spam 2 buttons" like some moron said, but is not that complex... so, why buff or nerf, or replace super stacks by a moderate base but never do the old bad powers shine in some circunstance?
I prefer a tree that a not so fast can be more deadly than a exec ibs+946849684 stacks, o better, a hard power to dominate, like RP, hiting like a exec ibs. you can not just put that HAMSTER in your slot, got the better gear and "lookme, i do 65968958695k using a atwill". you REALLY need stop to training this.
Looks like you are out of arguments. As i said, if you want to discuss your hatred and obsession over GWFs, open your own thread instead of spamming in Lazalia's thread.
Looks like you are out of arguments. As i said, if you want to discuss your hatred and obsession over GWFs, open your own thread instead of spamming in Lazalia's thread.
For the star trek android above zac, not for you. Funny thing, someone PMed me in-game today saying that "GWFs will be nerfed back to the stone age". Which says quite a lot about how much some players really look for "balance". I wonder who that player might be. Really. Took a SS btw, just in case...
By the way, a couple of topic-related things:
i'm not Lazalia's build, he didn't read the part where i explained it. I'm a PvP GWF and in PvE i'm more of an off-tank with T.Terror, 6k crit-40% overall crit chance, 108k HP, 17-19k power, capped ArP (to be honest a bit too much DRI, it's around 64%), and lathander set.
Anyone can meet me in game and come run a dungeon with me to see how i play and how the class performs when you're not using the Lazalia's build shown in the video.
Plus i'd really like to see soloing attempts of other classes at similar iLvL. Like 4k CWs, trapper HRs, TRs, Paladins...would be interesting to watch.
For the star trek android above zac, not for you. Funny thing, someone PMed me in-game today saying that "GWFs will be nerfed back to the stone age". Which says quite a lot about how much some players really look for "balance". I wonder who that player might be. Really. Took a SS btw, just in case...
and that is the problem. you can not just enjoy the game, come to the forum to give sugestions about small things or even point SMALL PROBLEMS in your class that can be adjusted or changed for another thing more "discreet". you need "fight", all the days, all the time because some guy have problems to a certain archetype.
nothing is more frustrating than see your class be nerfed because a a noisy minority transformed a particular freakiness in some balance demand.
and by the way, for some guys the priority is not only "balance" a class A, but unbalanced a specific class or type B... now i have 1,850 replies against that HAMSTER.
You needed wooot? Skills?? Where? Where the hell did you need skill from mod 2 to mod 6? Your too funny...
BTT: Nice done lazalia.
Module 2= when passive deep gash procs made GWF good enough to get invited to dungeons along with CWs. When you could tank epic dungeons with any class, any toon, cause mobs were hitting you for far less than now. When GWFs could tank red areas with ease.
Much skills.
Expecially compared to current GWF that must manage multiple types of self buffs to deal max damage, and must avoid read areas/ heavy hits.
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
Balance in terms of classes is extremely difficult in this game, due to the nature of gear progression they introduced, how to you curtail BiS types and not harm the progression of the rest of the class, most other mmos Ive played, its not a 100-150% increase from top level to BiS.. but it is in this game for dps anyways.
This is just one big happy merry go round, there will never be a stop on it, due to the nature of the game and the gear pathing they have offered.
Im not really commenting on the class itself, just this unending debate on all the classes. Sometimes they hit balance correctly, sometimes they under nerf, sometimes they over nerf. Its not just this game.. but I think overall this game makes it VERY hard to balance out things.
I couldn't be less impressed with this video. Yes we get it, GWF's are above and beyond any other class out there in terms of damage. Yes we get it, this game requires no skill, anyone who says otherwise is legitimately brain dead; you get stats to a certain threshold and dodge red. In fact I'm certain the majority of you could do this with a BiS or close to BiS GWF.
This Video shows excactly wot happened cuzz the majority was crying that mod 6 is to hard and they cant clear any dungeon. Cryptic listenend and made this game easy as hell. Thx for crying...
Comments
GWF now is low efficiency-very high attack power. You want to make it even lower efficiency while keeping the insane amounts of self buffs, just making them "harder to keep up" (decrease efficiency), which would literally destroy the class in PvP (considering in PvP you have 8 seconds to build 10 capstone stacks during unstoppable, while GFs/CWs/HRs/TRs burst you from start of the fight to end, at full power).
What you should ask for now is more class balance. But what you keep proposing is basically a GWF overnerf that would make the class unwanted. A couple of players already told you in another thread that they wouldn't invite a GWF in their current state, if it was not for their insane damage. Which should suggest you that, from a PvE party point of view, the class has issues. And what do you propose? Changes that do not solve the issues pointed out, and that decrease the overall destroyer path already low efficiency. You completely ignore any discussion and real suggestions to balance things and go straight for your biased and terrible theorycrafting.
We know that Destroyer crit build overall damage is currently too high.
We also know that whole class base damage is the lowest of all classes (reason why devs filled it with so many self-buffs) and same goes for its combat efficiency.
And we also know that eLoL set is overperforming and scaling with the 2 main features of Lazalia's build: very high crit and higest weapon damage of all classes, which means the set specifically performs better on GWF class.
Common sense of someone who knows the class and want balance would be:
fix eLoL set, which would affect GWF class more than other classes due to highest crit chance and highest weapon damage
decrease overall self-buffs
increase base damage by some
increase combat efficiency
This would solve the problems and balance, while your suggestion would make the problems even worse. It's a non-solution, similar to devs trying to cover the class low efficiency/ poor design/ low base damage with self buffs over self buffs over self buffs.
A very simple suggestion which is like 100000000x better than yours:
- rework hidden daggers (currently 40% damage self buff) giving it 1 more charge, taking away the 40% damage self-buff and exchanging it with a 10% debuff on enemy DR (benefits whole party)
- increase GWF class base damage by 20%
- increase combat efficiency (faster animations, easier-to-land encounters) for PvP.
Now you have an overall 20% damage decrease (40% lost from hidden daggers rework, 20% increase from base damage buff), but a higher overall efficiency of the class which would bring it more in-line with other DPS classes.
Keeping in mind that it is a full DPS class and should have DPS comparable only to full DPS classes and paths such as fury SW or stormwarden HR.
And also keeping in mind that there's other stuff to fix on other classes, not just the "nerf GWF" obsession of commanderdata.
For example, make combat Hr and executioner TR the kings of single target DPS in PvE, rebalance MI-Sabo builds, buff SW/ rework them, balance Paladins and so on.
Also, about eLoL set, just FYI:
i play a GWF with T.Terror, no crit build and around 40% crit chance, and no eLoL set, and GWFs with less iLvL but eLoL set deal double my damage using the same rotation, hitting the same targets.
The difference from using eLoL or using another set is huge.
Prepare your pro QQ choir!
Oh and btw! All serious pvper GWF can confirm that straight dmg GWF was much better than this dmg stack buffer GWF for pvp.
And you can't have both!
Thats why GFs Crescendo is way higher dmg than GWFs!
But I probably don't understand the class again!
Yes, you don't understand the class again.
Module 3 GWF was already the stacks-building destroyer.
So the "straight damage type" you talk about is module 2 GWF which was...sentinel IV and that GWF was overpowered due to immortality, not burst damage. The complaint, my dear uninformed dude, was that regeneration IV sentinels were immortal and unkitable. Not that their burst was too high. :facepalm:
What you propose would not solve the issue and would keep the old problems of the class while making it even more frustrating to play. Explanation:
Right now, GWF capstone allows the GWF to build up stacks, at first group, then have them still up at next group so it can go unstoppable fast dealing damage and keep them up, staying at max damage through the whole run.
If you make capstone stacks (50% damage buff overall) expire fast, this means that the GWF will need to rebuild them all at each group of mobs, and do it going unstoppable first through damage dealth (assuming you have OP-GF holding aggro, or other DPS classes that can burst at max power from the get go, unless the GWF consistently rushes always ahead to get hit first, messing up with the job of the tank or dying), then rebuild the stacks, and at high iLvLs most mobs will be dead before the GWF can have stacks up, which results in a straight 40-50% damage nerf. Balanced?
So your idea nerfs the class, in reality, for 40% at least of the damage it can deal in a dungeon run (assuming the GWF can build only a small part of the stacks before all the mobs are burned down by SWs/CWs/HRs/TRs), while keeping all the issues it has now (low combat efficiency, low base damage), plus in PvP it will make it impossible to play cause on a dodging enemy you would never have stacks up, cutting the damage by 50% straight.
My idea would reduce the peak damage of a GWF by a good 20% while increasing the combat efficiency and base damage, filling the old shortcomings of the class and getting rid, partially, of the terrible self-buffs system. So you would have a more balanced GWF, more efficient and with less burst at full stacks.
Don't understand the sorcerer rant/ prediction. As if overnerfing GWFs would have any connection with the release of future classes. Or is it to say that old CW-era was not so bad? No way dude. It was THAT bad. Be happy that now in PE you read only pleayers looking for DPS/Healer/Tank (generic) and not a specific all-in-one class.
anyway, that, my friends, is the total motivation behind all that posts: the point is not some class be imbalanced, the problem is that imbalanced class dont be a "generic mage". For a hypothetical sorcerer, that will be ok.
and about what pando say, my idea is dont do nothing, or work gwf to do a really crazy things if be able to manage difficult things like reaping strike, the old cancelation, etc and not the same sure strike+ibs hitting more or less hard because have a better base or x stacks. you have 3 trees to be worked in different playstyles and demands.
iam tired to that: player A test a build and share in foruns, player b just need take the necessary gear - legit? i doubt - and then, "look, is a overpowered 'bis' gwf; he dont know how to manage your sprint, but hit like a train!".
In PvE you need, as explained several times by Lazalia in his guides, to play carefully time your encounters to make sure you build up al lthe multiple self buffs, put them together and avoid wasting your potential (such as spamming hidden daggers, using IBS too soon instead of SS during unstoppable and hit IBS in the last second to get the 10% damage buff but also take advantage of the increased at-will speed, keep an eye on destroyer stacks, hidden dagger buff and capstone stacks to make sure you hit your encounters when they are all up). It's a lot of stuff you need to carefully manage all together. It's not like GWF damage comes out automatically, you need to know how to use the class or your battle power goes to waste.
If, both in PvP and PvE, you know how to play the class, you squeeze the most out of it.
But, what you see here is that it doesn't matter how "difficult" it is to put all the power together: what matters is what other players see. In GWF case, the fact that properly geared and played toons are DPS monsters.
So the better choice is to balance the maximum potential of the class and make it easier to play.
about the class itself in pve or pvp, like i said, you have 3 differents trees to be worked in differents playstyles and demands, but just one viable tree and few good powers, class features, etc.
yes, play a gwf - pve - is not "just spam 2 buttons" like some moron said, but is not that complex... so, why buff or nerf, or replace super stacks by a moderate base but never do the old bad powers shine in some circunstance?
I prefer a tree that a not so fast can be more deadly than a exec ibs+946849684 stacks, o better, a hard power to dominate, like RP, hiting like a exec ibs. you can not just put that HAMSTER in your slot, got the better gear and "lookme, i do 65968958695k using a atwill". you REALLY need stop to training this.
edit: i see the lower depths now.
Funny thing, someone PMed me in-game today saying that "GWFs will be nerfed back to the stone age". Which says quite a lot about how much some players really look for "balance". I wonder who that player might be. Really. Took a SS btw, just in case...
By the way, a couple of topic-related things:
i'm not Lazalia's build, he didn't read the part where i explained it. I'm a PvP GWF and in PvE i'm more of an off-tank with T.Terror, 6k crit-40% overall crit chance, 108k HP, 17-19k power, capped ArP (to be honest a bit too much DRI, it's around 64%), and lathander set.
Anyone can meet me in game and come run a dungeon with me to see how i play and how the class performs when you're not using the Lazalia's build shown in the video.
Plus i'd really like to see soloing attempts of other classes at similar iLvL. Like 4k CWs, trapper HRs, TRs, Paladins...would be interesting to watch.
nothing is more frustrating than see your class be nerfed because a a noisy minority transformed a particular freakiness in some balance demand.
and by the way, for some guys the priority is not only "balance" a class A, but unbalanced a specific class or type B... now i have 1,850 replies against that HAMSTER.
Join the Greycloaks
Ana-GWF SM Destroyer | Farseer-CW MoF Renegade | Leon-GF SM Tactician
Adrik Battlefate-DC DO Virtuous | Cassi Woodsheart-HR PF Trapper
BTT:
Nice done lazalia.
Much skills.
Expecially compared to current GWF that must manage multiple types of self buffs to deal max damage, and must avoid read areas/ heavy hits.
This is just one big happy merry go round, there will never be a stop on it, due to the nature of the game and the gear pathing they have offered.
Im not really commenting on the class itself, just this unending debate on all the classes. Sometimes they hit balance correctly, sometimes they under nerf, sometimes they over nerf. Its not just this game.. but I think overall this game makes it VERY hard to balance out things.
Join the Greycloaks
Ana-GWF SM Destroyer | Farseer-CW MoF Renegade | Leon-GF SM Tactician
Adrik Battlefate-DC DO Virtuous | Cassi Woodsheart-HR PF Trapper
Good times.
Thx for crying...